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Graves
30-04-2009, 23:43
So I still can't pick an army. Trying to decide what to play for the next premier tournie, and I'm basically resorting to writing lists until I make something that stands out. So... Beastmen! These buggers keep popping into my mind as an army I'd like to do. I played a small beasts force mixed with my hordes of chaos in the past (RIP mixed books) but never a pure beast list. Here goes nothing,.

Beastlord

MoK
Axes of khorngor
chaos armor
collar of khorne


wargor

MoK
bsb
shield
heavy armour
Beast banner


wargor

MoK
scimitar of skultar
Pelt of the dark young
shield

Wargor

MoK
great weapon
trollhide armour
crown of horns


Beastherd
16 gors
8 ungors
banner, musician

Beastherd
16 gors
8 ungors
banner, musician

Beastherd
18 gors
10 ungors
banner, musician, foerender

tuskor chariot

tuskor chariot

5 warhounds

5 warhounds

5 warhounds

18 Khorngors
command
MoK
Vitriolic totem


4 Minotaurs
GW
MoK


Shaggoth
GW

This list gives me 4 ambushing units, 4 on the table (with the ambush rule), 2 very hard hitting units, and an old statline shaggoth with 3+ save and 6 wounds. It also works out to 8 total dispell dice.

happy_doctor
01-05-2009, 04:32
First off, let me say that despite what you can read on forums, it's not that easy to exploit frenzy when playing against Khorne armies.

That being said, the above statement requires that you have experience on how to screen your frenzied units and how to plan ahead a turn or two so as to co-ordinate charges when your opponent will be baiting you like crazy. What's more, your herds have 360 line of sight, meaning that so do the characters inside them. Combine this with the raiders rule (need 25% of the unit to be inside the charge range in order to complete a charge) and you have a highly dangerous mix. Get used to hiding your heroes deep within your skirmishing units, as you'll be doing this a lot.

Moving on to the list:
-You have good magic defense, but no scrolls. With so many game-breaking high cost spells around (including Infernal Gateway, Unseen Lurker, Wind of undeath etc), I'm afraid you'll find yourself in a position where you'll need to roll 5 dice to counter a 22 casting. While it's statistically possible, it's not definite; there are times when a scroll is better.

-Already mentioned the amount of frenzied troops in your list. If you feel you can handle it, then more power to you. If not, there are other options in a beast army which are far more manageable.

-Your list is small, for a beastmen army. The way I see it, your biggest problem will be - oddly- leadership; while your characters are immune to psychology, your herds are not. A competent opponent will seek to exploit this by forcing panic checks on your Ld7/8 units.

Beastherds: Why so large and why so many Gors? All you need for a beastherd to be effective is 8 or 9 gors to do the fighting plus 12 or so ungors to provide the ranks and soak up shooting. Smaller units mean more units which is always good. Another suggestion would be to include the foe render whenever possible, he's a very good upgrade despite the steep cost. (greater leadership and 3 S4 attacks)

Beastlord: I see you are aiming for a unit killer character (6 attacks with re-rolls on to-hits) but the trend nowadays seems to be elite units which are hard to kill due to high toughness and armour save. Perhaps you'd be better off with the regular great weapon. As far as protection is concerned, a 4+ armour save and a toughness of 4 mean dead beastlord in my book.

Two suggestions: either give him the slaughterer's blade to get some wounds back by killing stuff(plus it's a great weapon to boot), or give him a great weapon, a shield and the crown of horns. This way you'll be able to choose between a 2+ save with 5+ ward if needed, or a 4+ save 5+ ward when you want to hit with a strength of 7.

Khorngors: Vitriolic totem seems a bit off on these guys; they are already S6, thus wounding on 2's against most stuff. paying 25 points for poisoned attacks may prove to be useful, but the same could be said for the equally costed War Banner. I prefer the latter, giving you a static combat resolution of 5.
On a side note, these guys won't be needing much support from characters, they can deal enough damage on their own.

-Minotaurs: I'd be taking more units of these, definitely two instead of one. even two units of 3 can do the trick, as they each have the attack output of a 4-strong regular ogre-sized unit. Use their Bloodgreed rule to your advantage: plan things out in such a way so as to wipe out your foes when you don't want to overrun, effectively cancelling the frenzy rule.

-Shaggoth: nothing wrong with this guy, he just needs protection from missiles and he'll do fine. Knights are premium targets for this guy, same goes for elite units without much static combat resolution. Some would argue that there is nothing this guy can do that 3 Dragon Ogres cannot for a better price. The difference is that the Shaggoth has a great model whereas the dragon ogres are pretty ugly.

-BSB: What are your plans for this guy? Is he joining the Khorngors or a regular beast herd? In both cases, I think he is wasting his potential. The place of the Beast Banner is inside a normal Bestigor unit, where the extra attacks come with S6 instead of 3. If you are going the SuperHerd route, then this guy is overkill.

General Suggestions:
-Less characters, more units
-More minotaurs
-Smaller herds, consider dropping the banners if they are meant for sacrifice
-Lower the number of Khorngors, give them a War Banner to counter the rank loss
-Give your general some protective gear
-Consider adding some small naked herds to raise the number of ambushing units and to provide screening for your heavy hitters.
-Consider exchanging the Shaggoth for 3 dragon ogres with great weapons.

Hope this helps a bit

Graves
01-05-2009, 05:21
Fantastic, that resolves every concern I had while writing the list. I'll work on some list changes and see what I come up with tomorrow. You've been a great help!

Frenzy has never really been an issue for me. I generally try to plan 2 turns ahead, 3 if my opponent is predictable, and in an army this size screening is a non-issue.

I'm not switching the shaggoth for 3 dragon ogres though, Expensive and UGLY models, and despite my best efforts no way to convert them (without hand sculpting the dragon torso).

Edit: list v2.0. I want to work in 1 more hound block (need 18 pts) to get 8 total ambushing units, but I'll work on that later.

Wargor

MoK
Slaughterer's Blade
Pelt of the Dark Young
Crown of Horns
Heavy Armour
shield


Wargor

MoK
bsb
Vitriolic totem
H armour

Wargor

Braystaff
chaos armour
scroll


Beast herd

12 ungors
8 gors
full command

Beast herd

12 ungors
8 gors
full command

Beast herd <-- bsb

12 ungors
8 gors
full command

17 Khorngors <-- lord

full command


Tuskor chariot


Tuskor chariot


6 Warhounds


6 Warhounds




3 Minotaurs

MoK
GW


3 Minotaurs

MoK
GW



Shaggoth

GW

popisdead
05-05-2009, 20:24
Herds are a tricky beast (har har) to do right.

They go as such:

Always have a number divisible by four but add one. so 17, 21, 25, etc

Min size should be 17, better size is 21.

You need between 7-9 gors. Then pad out with ungors (as they are cheaper, can attack from the second rank, etc).


Also keep in mind it's possible to frenzy bait characters out of a herd if placed poorly. Three minotaurs isn't as good as 4.

Dragon Ogres are better than shaggoths.

Graves
05-05-2009, 23:09
true... but 6 minotaurs are better than 4, and more maneuverable. Being more vulnerable to losing a model and crippling the unit (instead of after losing 2) is a minor tradeoff. Although I agree 4 would make a better individual unit

I also totally 100% agree on the dragon ogres... but... GOD DAMN the models are ugly and expensive. SO DAMN UGLY. And I have yet to figure out a decent way to convert them, other than sculpting the lower torso.