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Col. Tartleton
01-05-2009, 16:26
What if the Emperor managed to keep all the primarchs loyal... All he really needed to do was wait till his Primarchs were done to build the Webway. :(

Because believe it or not it wouldn't be hard. Nine Legions did so its not actually that large a task.

Luna Wolves: Emperor picks Sanguinius as Warmaster and places Horus as his Lieutenant. Sanguinius was untouchable to Chaos and Horus wouldn't have fallen if he was under the watch of the Blood Angel. He would end up with a brilliant tactician.

World Eaters: If the Emperor had deployed whichever Legion he was traveling with at the time (Luna Wolves or Thousand Sons) to aid the slaves rather than just steal away Angron he could easily have both saved his son, improved the legion, and with some short term counseling have made Angron a bedrock for being a gentle warrior (I'm sure he'd want to turn away from his past and have the implants removed.)

Iron Warriors: Give Perturabo a nice title with no real power and tell the other primarchs to respect him a bit more. Then have him deploy on the front and give him a chance to smash through everything at rapid speed. Honestly Perturabo just wanted to be treated properly. That's really easy.

Thousand Sons: If he hadn't been building the Webway there would be no problem. Magnus could have helped him with it once that was started on.

Alpha Legion: Meeting Alpharius early on would have been nice, finding out about Omegon (I bet he'd be super pumped he'd have been like "Black Jack! I made 21 w007!") would have been wise. As they were the newest primarchs it may have made sense to have them follow someone like Dorn around and to learn from the best. Dorn was pretty creative and maybe his stubborn loyalty would rub off on the more loose Alpha Twins.

Emperor's Children: Would have been fine I think. Maybe if they were told to stick to the war thing and cut back on the coke and sex parties. But even that probably wouldn't have amounted to much. If Horus had been legit Fulgrim would too.

Night Lords: Recall to Terra! Have Konrad given full treatment and get the therapy done. Have them recruited from good Terran stock instead of the thugs and murderers of Nostramo. Maybe they'd lighten up a bit, change their wardrobe and name and not be so bats*** crazy. I could easily Imagine the Night Lords wearing a cool night blue and be a bit more about surprise attacks and controlled shock tactics then full blown mayhem and carnage. No batwings... swan wings :)

Death Guard: Same with Angron. All you needed to do was let Mort fight his own battles for himself. Then come down and congratulate him say "I saw you kill that Necromancer, damn impressive, how would you like to work for me... I'm your real father, I've finally found you." Mortarion would be amped that his true dad came and was impressed with him and the Death Guard would be a little less grim and Mort would be a bit more open to being a good guy.

Word Bearers: Get Lorgar off the back to be your praetorian. Sure Dorn could still build the palace and all that, but Lorgar was even more loyal at first then Dorn. Lorgar was the guy who would give anything to protect the man he saw as the savior of mankind. Plus with him staying with you all the time The Big E could eventually knock the notion of the whole "Your God" and have Lorgar turn his focus to making the Word Bearers into *dun dun dun* Grey Knights. Theoretically this would be the best way to utilize their faith and devotion.


That's all it would take to have 20 High Lords and an Imperium.

Now here's the question who would be what:

The 2 additonal seats would be High Custodian Valdor and Malcador (who would probably lead the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Sanguinius would have to be Warmaster, Horus perhaps head of the Lord Commander of the Army, Guillimen could hold Master of the Administratum, Curze could be Grand Provost Marshal of the Arbiters, The Lion could hold the head of the Inquisition, Lorgar the Supreme Grand Master of the Word Bearers (GK), and im out of ideas for the rest of them.

madd0ct0r
01-05-2009, 16:56
Except Lorgar's faith ran counter to the Imperial Truth; Fulgrim was turned by plot device (possessed cheese knife, i think); Alpharius would probably still have made the deal he allegedly did; Magnus was always going to end up dabbling in forbidden knowledge; Mort was turned through direct intervention of Nurgle and I'm not sure Horus wouldn't chafe as second-in-command and fall that way instead.

Horus was always a political animal, though you may be correct that his energies and ambition could have been devirted (into chess leauges with Guillam?)


Angron, Konrad and Pertuabo you may have a point with.

Col. Tartleton
01-05-2009, 19:24
Well these things would have boosted their loyalty. I'm not saying chaos wouldn't try to come at them, but I think they may have been able to "just say no" had he done his job properly.

Lorgar could have been dealt with had he been kept at hand. Besides, from there he wouldn't have been able to do very much even if he started getting a bit too Lorgar. But like I said, Chaos would have to be fought eventually. Lorgar would have had the proper mind set to lead these pursuits. Magnus would have had the fight fire with fire Grey Knights sorcery and Lorgar would have had the Black Templars devotion. Besides, the Word Bearers already wore gray and we all know that's where 90% of anti demon mojo comes from.

I'm sure if the Emperor kept more in touch with his sons the Laer "DEMON BLADE O' BLATANT PLOT DEVICE AND KILLINESS" could have been avoided. All he needed to say was "No matter how cool the Xenos weapons look, don't use them, they may have mind control traps..." Regardless, worst comes to worst Fulgrim isn't going to do a lot by himself.

Magnus delt in the dark arts but he was not turned and neither were his legion. He joined Tzeentch out of treachery from his allies. He concluded he was screwed anyway, they already thought he was a traitor, and becoming one would give him a fighting chance. With proper Emperor guidance that wouldn't have happened. Magnus was one of the Most Loyal sons. He just liked being a rebel, but deep down he was rock solid.

Mort may have been able to say "**** you Nurgle" if he wasn't already pissed at the Emperor. He was already a traitor before the transformation of the Legion, so that point isn't true. He went with Horus with his own will. The Nurgle thing came afterward. There were some Nurglists in the legion already but they weren't wide spread and could have been dealt with.

Horus wanted to command, but even he admitted that Sanguinius was better than him. As long as Horus was kept busy he'd be able to keep producing brilliant results and not have time to go "I should totally be Emperor." Guilleman had most of the same faults and he turned out fine...:rolleyes:

Which leads to the other nine:

Guilleman: Probably a risk but he was curbed by his duty.

Khan: Good to Go.

Russ: Even his marines seem almost Chaos proof, he'd be fine.

Vulkan: Way to good natured to fall.

Dorn: He turned out fine.

Lion: God Knows what he was thinking. Seems he would stay loyal.

Corax: Loyal.

Sanguinius: Great.

Ferrus: Plenty loyal.

So with an eye on the Lion and Guilleman the other loyalists would have been fine.

madd0ct0r
01-05-2009, 23:26
I can't help but wonder wether Guillam and Horus would bring out the worst in each other?
Neither exactly lacked ambition.
meh, it's a moot point.

For Magnus I'd point out that no self respecting servant of Tzeentech actually thinks they're a servant. They're just biding their time...
Sooner or later, i think Magnus, or some of his legion would stop being a source of stability.


Likewise for Mort, traitor or not, he'd still have been becalmed in th warp by typhus where Nurgle's rot slowly devoured his beloved legion. It was for their sakes he turned to the voice in the void.

I agree that Lorgar's faith is the perfect tool for anti Chaos work.
Did the emperor know this? Or had he only made the (emotion = warp power) connection and not the next step of (belief = Warp power focus)?

RedStompa
02-05-2009, 02:05
For Magnus I'd point out that no self respecting servant of Tzeentech actually thinks they're a servant. They're just biding their time...
Sooner or later, i think Magnus, or some of his legion would stop being a source of stability.





Bide his time for what exactly? You do know your talking about trying to defy one of the chaos GODS, the master of trickery and deception to be exact, trying to defy Tzeeentch would just be stupid.

Wazzahamma
02-05-2009, 03:50
lol. hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

seriously, we can all look back on our lives; jobs, school, relationships and see what we could have to avoid the tragedies and the failures. none of us could foresee them though. apparently, not even the emperor.

Condottiere
02-05-2009, 06:55
Sometimes tragedies are a combination of circumstances and personality flaws. The universe provides plenty of occasions where these circumstances can occur, which may or may not be sidestepped, but personality flaws are with you always.

changer of fate
02-05-2009, 07:07
we wouldn't be playing this game if all twenty primarches were loyal

20 space marine legions - 200000+ space marines, that would flaten anything comes to the galaxy, it would be boring

Idaan
02-05-2009, 13:25
There is five times that number of Marines in M41 and somehow they don't flatten everything.

And besides, I can't imagine superhuman genetically engineered (insert more GW blather here) demigods on steroids on administrative posts. I'm not saying they would be unable to manage it, because that'd just get me stoned to death with rulebooks, no matter how sensible it might be. I'm just saying it's a waste of potential.