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View Full Version : Dark Elf Characters in 2000 points #2



zeekill
02-05-2009, 19:31
Ok, so after the last time i did this poll i obtained some new ideas and narrowed my Character choices down enough to start thinking about individual equipment. So i started a new poll to see what other people think will be the best combination for my character choices.

I want to have a strong MAGIC army but still have one regular fighting character choice.

Here are Details:

1) Lvl 4 on foot with Sac Dagger, Ring of Darkness, and Dispel Scroll ::: Lvl 2 on foot with Tome of Furion and Dispel Scroll ::: Master on Cold One with Blood Armor and Crimson Death

2) Dreadlord on Cold One with Blood Armor, SD cloak, Ring of Darkness, Lance ::: Lvl 2 with Tome of Furion ::: Lvl 2 with Darkstar Cloak ::: Lvl 2 with Sacrificial Dagger

3) If you have a good idea for an alternative Character Setup (hopefully that will cost less but still be strong) please type it up in red and specify why it is so good. However i am not willing to give up my Sorceresses, i want at least 6 total Lvls of wizadry if you were to add them together. Thank you.


EDIT:So i understand that Lvls 4,2 is better than Lvls 2,2,2, but now what would be better: 4,2,2 or 4,2+master?

LKHERO
02-05-2009, 20:20
Lv4 on Peggy, Lv2 no foot and a Master BSB is all you need.

BattleofLund
02-05-2009, 20:25
2) Dreadlord on Cold One with Blood Armor, SD cloak, Ring of Darkness, Lance

No. If I recall correctly, Blood Armour is 'to a maximum of 1+AS'. Therefore, instead of Blood Armour you should take a mundane shield and get your 1+AS from the start, also save a few points.

***

As your premise ('lots of magic') is what it is, I'll just say this: if you're going to have a lvl4, let her stay on foot and have the Dagger. 4x Magic Kill Spells Per Turn Better Than 2 Magic Kill Spells Per Turn. If an agressive opponent tries for face time with her, deploy Assassin.

zeekill
02-05-2009, 20:46
Lv4 on Peggy, Lv2 on foot and a Master BSB is all you need.



As your premise ('lots of magic') is what it is, I'll just say this: if you're going to have a lvl4, let her stay on foot and have the Dagger. 4x Magic Kill Spells Per Turn Better Than 2 Magic Kill Spells Per Turn. If an agressive opponent tries for face time with her, deploy Assassin.

I was actually thinking of going towards the Dreadlord/Lvl2/Lvl2/Lvl2 route. Any reason why that is better? Because i can think of a few for why 3 Lvl 2's beat Lvl 4 + Lvl 2

LKHERO
02-05-2009, 21:07
3 Lv.2s is too unreliable for me. If you're going that route, I'd rather go 1 Lv4, 2 Lv2s and 1 BSB.

Either way, Magic heavy and Dreadlord doesn't mix. You need a Supreme Sorc if you want to go Magic Heavy.

xragg
02-05-2009, 21:20
Level 4 should have the sac dagger. The dagger stregthens your magic phase immensely, and a level 4 gets to use it twice as often. Essentially, a L4 with the dagger and a level 2 is 12PD, compared to 10PD that 3 L2's with the dagger would bring. Not to mention the L4+2 is one less character slot for just as much if not more punch then 3L2's.

I would personally bring a L4, L2, BSB, and assassin to protect the L4 as my characters. I know the assassin doesnt take a character slot, but I still add him with other characters to avoid dumping too many points into characters.

zeekill
02-05-2009, 21:24
3 Lv.2s is too unreliable for me. If you're going that route, I'd rather go 1 Lv4, 2 Lv2s and 1 BSB.

Either way, Magic heavy and Dreadlord doesn't mix. You need a Supreme Sorc if you want to go Magic Heavy.

Thing is, why?
Lvl 4 + Lvl 2 = 6 dice+2 in pool ::: 4 spells/2 spells ::: 5 dispel dice
Lvl 2 + Lvl 2+ Lvl 2= 6 dice + 2 in pool, + 1 dice for Darkstar Cloak ::: 3 spells/2 spells/2 spells (extra 1 for Tome of Furion) ::: 5 dispel dice

Plus 2/2/2 means more places to cast from, and more combos of Lores. Example, if im fighting HE and they have Archers, Silverhelms, chariots, and warriors, i can take Black Magic against the warriors and archers, and one sorc with lore of metal to combat the Silverhelms and chariots. ( ok not the best example but in some instances im sure 3 different lores could be useful.

And if i take 4/2 my sorc on pegasus will be hunted down and annihilated by a flying unit/dragon/wyvern/etc

zeekill
02-05-2009, 21:31
Level 4 should have the sac dagger. The dagger stregthens your magic phase immensely, and a level 4 gets to use it twice as often. Essentially, a L4 with the dagger and a level 2 is 12PD, compared to 10PD that 3 L2's with the dagger would bring. Not to mention the L4+2 is one less character slot for just as much if not more punch then 3L2's.

I would personally bring a L4, L2, BSB, and assassin to protect the L4 as my characters. I know the assassin doesnt take a character slot, but I still add him with other characters to avoid dumping too many points into characters.

Sure you can Sacrifice like hell, kill 21-32+ points of models a turn, and get all that, or you can take 2/2/2 and be able to cast PoD an extra time at no extra cost.

Though i do see what u mean, i could cast spells on one less dice (like a 12+ spell on 3, a 9+ spell on 2, or a 4/5/6+ on one), see if it goes off and sacrifice or not accordingly

BattleofLund
02-05-2009, 21:32
I was actually thinking of going towards the Dreadlord/Lvl2/Lvl2/Lvl2 route. Any reason why that is better? Because i can think of a few for why 3 Lvl 2's beat Lvl 4 + Lvl 2

Well I said 'if you're going to have a lvl4...'. My personal preference is that a lvl4 can get slightly one-dimensional ('one unit in the army can lug around a Big Magical Cannon. The BMC can move from unit to unit, and it can shoot very well - but it can do nothing else').

Why a lvl4+lvl2 is better than 3xlvl2?
1) You can't put the Dagger on two lvl2s.
2) Also, you can't put the Black Staff on a lvl2 - even if I vastly prefer the Dagger (at least partly because I get to cackle when I kill my own dudes for my dastardly purposes).
3) You can't put the Pendant on two lvl2s. Not that I used to put it on my lvl4 either, but that would have been good.

W0lf
02-05-2009, 22:34
Dreadlord
Armour of Darkness, Pendant, GW
206pts

Lvl 2
Scroll, Dagger
185

lvl 2
Tomb of furion, Seal of Grond
180

lvl 2
+1 PD (darkstar cloak is it?), Scroll
185

Thats Just under 800 pts and pretty effective for what it is.

The thing is unlike most races DE have a benefit for 2 xlvl2 OVER 1 lvl 4. They can cast with as many dice as they want, you get 3 lore choices, they can stack their arcane goodness (seen above) and you can cast power of darkness 3 times.

chippyman64
03-05-2009, 12:19
Going for something completely different ever thought of a combat lord on dragon + 2 lvl 2's?

zeekill
03-05-2009, 14:17
Going for something completely different ever thought of a combat lord on dragon + 2 lvl 2's?

No i havent, mainly because its too expensive in points, and that i really want to be like MAXIMUM magic heavy

sulla
03-05-2009, 20:01
I want to have a strong MAGIC army but still have one regular fighting character choice.

[/COLOR]


EDIT:So i understand that Lvls 4,2 is better than Lvls 2,2,2, but now what would be better: 4,2,2 or 4,2+master?
lvl4 and lvl2 is not better than 3 lvl2's in dark elves. In any other army, yes, but since lvl2's can use any amount of dice in a druchii army, and 3 lvl2's speads out offense and defence better than 2 casters, in most cases, you are better to have 3 lvl2's. This means that you have the opportunity to spam 3 power of darkness or 3 chillwinds, should you need to and a miscast that kills/removes a level has less effect on the army as a whole.

Personally, for your magic based army, I would still recommend a dreadlord to lead because there is nothing worse for DE than to have an expensive unit fail stupidity or fear/ terror tests and do nothing/flee. You will have fewer units than your opponents most of the time, so you need them to be doing something each turn. Often, that requires Ld tests. Build a tank to sit in the centre of the field and buff the army's Ld while your 3 mages do their stuff. (You can boost their casting by adding the dagger, power stones and the cloak to your list).

bob_the_small
03-05-2009, 21:05
just go for a master w/ x2 sorceresses or a dreadlord /w x2 sorceresses

zeekill
03-05-2009, 21:51
lvl4 and lvl2 is not better than 3 lvl2's in dark elves. In any other army, yes, but since lvl2's can use any amount of dice in a druchii army, and 3 lvl2's speads out offense and defence better than 2 casters, in most cases, you are better to have 3 lvl2's. This means that you have the opportunity to spam 3 power of darkness or 3 chillwinds, should you need to and a miscast that kills/removes a level has less effect on the army as a whole.

Personally, for your magic based army, I would still recommend a dreadlord to lead because there is nothing worse for DE than to have an expensive unit fail stupidity or fear/ terror tests and do nothing/flee. You will have fewer units than your opponents most of the time, so you need them to be doing something each turn. Often, that requires Ld tests. Build a tank to sit in the centre of the field and buff the army's Ld while your 3 mages do their stuff. (You can boost their casting by adding the dagger, power stones and the cloak to your list).

Wrong, a Lvl 4 with dagger can potentially put out all of her spells in one turn, while lvl 2's cannot: (they can put out all their spells per say, but thats 2 spells vs 4)

She starts with 4 dice and lets say spells 1,2,5,and 6.
She throws a dice at chillwind. If it goes off great, if it doesnt, sac a guy and make it go off. 3 dice left, and either i delt damage or reduced dispel dice.
She throws a dice at doombolt and either gets it or sacs a guy and gets it. 2 dice left, more damage or less dispel dice
Now if there are no dispel dice left she does the same for power of darkness, on average she will get 3 dice back. So now 5 dice. (Alternative is take dice from the pool and cast Soul Stealer with 2 dice and the same tactic, then use PoD, or cast spells from my lvl 2 to kill some dispel dice)
Now i cast Soul Stealer on 2 dice and sac a guy if it does not work. 3 dice left
Lastly i cast Black Horror on 3 dice, and sac a guy if it doesnt work.

IF (IF!!!!!) everything goes badly i will end up sacing 5 warriors = 30 points

On average i will sac 2, sometimes 3 for an average loss of 12-18 points a turn, times 6 turns = 72-108 points killed, but look at the results. Thats an extra 2-3 spells than would normally go off. You can't do that with a Lvl 2!!

And also if youre still not satisfied, i can field a lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2's with no combat hero. Its just as, if not more effective, and i will be congratulated if not commemorated on my amazing Magic phase. And this game is about fun, and seeing people die from my ultimate magic phase = fun for me. (Thats fancy talk for i love magic in this game)

W0lf
03-05-2009, 22:12
And also if youre still not satisfied, i can field a lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2's with no combat hero. Its just as, if not more effective, and i will be congratulated if not commemorated on my amazing Magic phase. And this game is about fun, and seeing people die from my ultimate magic phase = fun for me. (Thats fancy talk for i love magic in this game)

Your more likely to be called a jerk then congratulated for magic heavy builds ;).

I should know. I wont even consider >9 PD @2K

zeekill
03-05-2009, 22:36
Your more likely to be called a jerk then congratulated for magic heavy builds ;).

I should know. I wont even consider >9 PD @2K

Haha u think this is bad? you should see my upcoming 16 power dice 2k army.

And you think that is bad? Wait till i mention its Vampire Counts!! LMAO!

W0lf
03-05-2009, 22:47
Being able to write a list with 16 PD dosnt require any kind of skill what so ever.

My vamps and WoC both role with 12 and that serves me fine.

Any idiot can write;

Slaan w/free dice
3x engine
15 dice which is more like 18 with slaan.

Vamp lord, lvl 4, master
vamp, master
vamp, master
vamp, master
17 PD

zeekill
03-05-2009, 22:50
Being able to write a list with 16 PD dosnt require any kind of skill what so ever.

My vamps and WoC both role with 12 and that serves me fine.

Any idiot can write;

Slaan w/free dice
3x engine
15 dice which is more like 18 with slaan.

Vamp lord, lvl 4, master
vamp, master
vamp, master
vamp, master
17 PD

Yea i know it doesnt take skill. Im just curious how much people will yell at me for having that list lol

W0lf
03-05-2009, 22:55
Probs not as they are one trick ponies for the most part.

Both those examples are lists that suck. 17 PD vampires isnt as good as a more balanced 14 dice list. Its what you do/can do with your dice that counts. Id argue;

Lord, master, lvl3, forbidden lore, raise ghouls
vampire, lvl 2, raise ghouls
vampire, lvl 2, raise ghouls
vampire, master
14 Pd

works better then 17 dice as you have good spell selection and arnt stuck with zombie spam.

sulla
04-05-2009, 06:40
Wrong, a Lvl 4 with dagger can potentially put out all of her spells in one turn, while lvl 2's cannot: (they can put out all their spells per say, but thats 2 spells vs 4)


Uhhh, 2 lvl 2's can put out a potential of10 (each uses one dice to cast PoD netting a maximum potential of 4+1 each) power dice plus the two army dice. A level 4 can put out a potential 7 one dice to cast PoD = 3+4). That gives only nine dice for the lvl4 to cast all her spells while the lvl2's have 6 each to cast all theirs at maximum efficiency.

Plus a miscast that prevents the caster casting but doesn't end the phase cripples the magic phase if it relies on the lvl4 but not so with the lvl2's.


Even if you gave the sac dagger to the supreme (and ignoring the fact were causing a panic test per turn by doing 5 wounds to your unit), you could have still done that for your lvl2 and given another one the darkstar cloak.

As I said earlier, the rules that apply to most other magic heavy armies don't apply to DE. They are subtly different.

W0lf
04-05-2009, 11:20
I already explained that but he obv ignored it...

Cousteau
04-05-2009, 19:12
The level 4 will give your army leadership 9.

ICEMANQ
04-05-2009, 20:03
Going for something completely different ever thought of a combat lord on dragon + 2 lvl 2's?

Thats what I do. Put one L2 on a peggy.

It is awesome. The lord has lifetaker and pendant. Killing machine.

zeekill
04-05-2009, 20:11
Probs not as they are one trick ponies for the most part.

Both those examples are lists that suck. 17 PD vampires isnt as good as a more balanced 14 dice list. Its what you do/can do with your dice that counts. Id argue;

Lord, master, lvl3, forbidden lore, raise ghouls
vampire, lvl 2, raise ghouls
vampire, lvl 2, raise ghouls
vampire, master
14 Pd

works better then 17 dice as you have good spell selection and arnt stuck with zombie spam.

Zombie spam is not bad. With 17 power dice you can easily summon pleantly of units of zombies and bring them up to an amazing US in a single tuirn. Take this as an example: Red is enemy, Blue is ally, white means they ran and were destroyed. A is enemy models, B is strong models, Z is zombies, N means Z facing sideways:
_____________________________________________
TURN 1:


AAAAA ... AAAAA ... AAAAA
AAAAA ... AAAAA ... AAAAA
AAAAA ... AAAAA ... AAAAA
AAAAA ... AAAAA ... AAAAA

BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
________________________________________
TURN 2:

ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ

AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAA NNN
AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAA NNN
AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAA NNN
AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAA NNN
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB

________________________________________
TURN 3:

ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ
AAAA .... AAAA .... AAAA.NNN
AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAANNN
AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAANNN
AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAANNN
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB


________________________________________
TURN 4:

ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ
ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ ... ZZZZZ
AAAA .... AAAA ... AAAA
AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAA
AAAAA .. AAAAA .. AAAAA
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB
BBBBB ... BBBBB ... BBBBB

_______________________________________

Now of course this wont work on some very strong units, but on most, 2 for rear charge, 1 for outnumber, and 1 for a banner will be enough to destroy them. Then u might say that I will be crushed because of my weak units, but this is only a demonstration. In a real game there will be vargulfs and cairn wraths and black knights and everything else helping me kill things.


AFTER THIS PLEASE NO MORE TALK ON THE VC, THIS THREAD IS ABOUT DE

zeekill
04-05-2009, 20:20
Uhhh, 2 lvl 2's can put out a potential of10 (each uses one dice to cast PoD netting a maximum potential of 4+1 each) power dice plus the two army dice. A level 4 can put out a potential 7 one dice to cast PoD = 3+4). That gives only nine dice for the lvl4 to cast all her spells while the lvl2's have 6 each to cast all theirs at maximum efficiency.

Plus a miscast that prevents the caster casting but doesn't end the phase cripples the magic phase if it relies on the lvl4 but not so with the lvl2's.


Even if you gave the sac dagger to the supreme (and ignoring the fact were causing a panic test per turn by doing 5 wounds to your unit), you could have still done that for your lvl2 and given another one the darkstar cloak.

As I said earlier, the rules that apply to most other magic heavy armies don't apply to DE. They are subtly different.

3 things wrong with your theory:

1) PoD can be easily dispelled, and will sometimes only put out 2 dice anyway. Half the time it wont go off, and another 1/3 it will only give 2 dice. Thats a 5/6 chance of it failing or putting out minimum efficiency
2) As i said above, the 5 wounds caused is a WORST CASE SCENARIO. As in thats something that can happen but has less than a 5% chance of doing so. And if it were about to cause a panic test i would stop sacing.
3) With 3 lvl 2's i have a less chance of getting stronger spells. Example:

With the Lvl 2's i have a 2/6,2/6,2/6 chance of getting Spell 6
With the Lvl 4 and 2 i have a 4/6,2/6 chance. Thats better

As a side note, 2 lvl 2's and a Dreadlord are also more expencive than a lvl 4 and Master

LKHERO
04-05-2009, 20:32
I don't understand why you post threads like this is you're not willing to absorb other people's criticism. You always argue with people's opinions even though you post a POLL, asking which do you think is better.

If you already know the answer, and know what you want to do, just go with it!

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comics/20060823.jpg

:-/

LKHERO
04-05-2009, 21:36
Ok i see exactly what you mean, im just going to be frank right now. I dont ask for help like regular people. I state what it is we will be talking about, then i wait for people to state their opinions and argue to the death. If they are good and prove me wrong, i highly consider changing my opinion, and then argue on that side of the argument. when people stop posting i re-read all the posts and make a decision. Simple.

Ok. This makes more sense to me now :)

The reason why I like the Lv.4 on Peggy with Familiar, Lv.2 on foot with Dagger and mounted BSB w/ something good (Ring of Darkness comes to mind) is because of 3 main reasons:

1. Larger selection of spells and choices from the Lv.4 and unbelievable harassment abilities via flying mount + Familiar.

2. You save a ton of points! At a 2k point range, this is great because it allows you to max out the rest of your army.

3. Multiple Lv.2s offer a lot more PD, but I don't like the small spell pool and lack of "threat" via a Lv.4 on peggy.

MTUCache
04-05-2009, 21:41
I personally don't (and wouldn't) run a DE list with more than two casters (either 2+2 or 4+2), but if that's what you're after I'd say the 4+2+2+BSB is your best option.

With the high-Ld of DEs you can get away with either a Ld10 general or a BSB. You don't need both like many armies do.

That being said, if you're going heavy magic, and you're comfortable with the types of games that this will produce, I'd think the Level 4 as a general would be preferred. Add in a L2 for the dice and that to me is more than enough. I would supplement that with a BSB/Manticore (taking up two slots) to maintain my combat power and draw fire away from the L4.

But, if you are going for the 4+2+2, I think your last character has to be a BSB (probably with a magic weapon in the BG to pump out enough attacks to keep your front rank safe, even with the ASF).

Either way you're putting 800+ points into your Character slots, which I feel is way too much for an elite army like DE, dragging your model count down to around 50 (not good with T3). I personally like to stay down around 600 and get another full unit in the army. Then again, I'm the type of person who's more than happy running a Lord on Manticore, a BSB, and a scroll caddy.

As for the style of conversation.... I don't think condescending is exactly the most productive method of generating discussion on a forum about a game which is populated by a majority of people who aren't even twenty years old yet. Somehow I don't think you're getting exactly what you were looking for.

W0lf
04-05-2009, 21:43
LMAO @ LK Hero, the connection between some person i know and that comic will now always be linked...


I state what it is we will be talking about, then i wait for people to state their opinions and argue to the death. If they are good and prove me wrong, i highly consider changing my opinion, and then argue on that side of the argument.

So you state a 'fact' then argue it to death, stubborn in the belief you know best and if somehow you meet someone with enough patience to bother you will learn something new. Then argue that point, untill you argue it outof context vs another patient individual and....

*mental note to ignore these threads*

zeekill
04-05-2009, 23:01
God, what a jerk.

Jeez its no big deal... people are more competitive to prove their point when its a big explosive argument.