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RTJ
05-05-2009, 11:59
Afternoon All,

I'm considering a move away from my Blood Angels to Dark Eldar (or at least to give it a go).

I know the colour schems I like and how I would like the army to look.

My question is this:

Why do i never see Hellions or Scourges?

I haven't got the codex, I've only just started looking really. I like the wyches, dark lances, warriors and love the jetbikes....but I never see Hellionso r Scourges, and rarely do I see mandrakes and grotesques or even haemonculi. Do Dark Eldar players all just prefer one or two styles of play?

Any feedback would be gratefully received!

Corrode
05-05-2009, 12:05
It's because they're *********** terrible. Scourges are an expensive jump pack unit with heavy weapons who lack Relentless (or a 3rd edition equivalent), so you pay a premium for a unit which only gets to utilise one of its advantages per turn.

Mandrakes are also just bad. Their deployment trick is interesting, but they're not really effective enough at what they do to be worth it. If you want CC units Wyches are better (and can ride Raiders). Hellions just don't stack up to jetbikes (which are themselves a bit 'meh' but they're not terrible).

Count de Monet
05-05-2009, 12:10
Wade through/search some of the DE tactics thread:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43582

Essentially, you rarely/never see them b/c the other options are much better. Grotesques and Haemonculi I've seen, but things like Scourges, Hellions and Mandrakes are rarely used. Splinter Cannon scourges can be OK since they can move + shoot, but are still very fragile.

gitburna
05-05-2009, 14:11
Scourges aren't too bad IMO, if you give them the splintercannons and use them for anti-infantry work. Hellions are simply awful and have been pretty much right from their release 11 years ago. The updated codex improved them for a small period of time (though not enough to make them worth using) before 4th edition came out but once the "No rapid fire before assault" rule was adopted, they slid back to the bottom of the ladder. All of which is a real shame,the models are good and I have had 5 of them cleaned up and awaiting a reason to be painted for the best part of 10 years now.

I don't agree with Corrodes assertion that Mandrakes are bad though. When 3rd was released, it was de rigeur to use these little army builder cards with details of your various units on making it easy to have all the important details of the unit to hand. I write battle honours on the back on mine and over the course of an 11 year gaming history, my Mandrakes have amassed a much bigger and better honour roll than other units. Hameonculi also make good "super veteran sergeants" scissor hands (and poisoned blades for sybarites) are bargains for the points.

EldarBishop
05-05-2009, 14:51
Hellions are terrible. I've seen them, I think once, in the last 10+ years. It was way back in 3rd.

Scourges with Splinter Cannons are *ok* (I suppose), given that they can actually move and shoot. They cost double what a normal Warrior costs, which is also another reason they are rarely seen.

Mandrakes have their place. They have an interesting deployment/game effect. I actually own a unit of these. The root of the problem here again is cost and effectiveness ratio. If they had a "champion" option with some decent CC upgrades they would definately be used more frequently. (Doesn't matter how sneaky they are, and that they actually have CCW/Pistol [one of the few DE units that do], it's still only a pile of Str 3 attacks...)

Grotestques should be okay. I've never used them either. Mostly because the models are absolutely horrible, and I was too lazy to convert them at the time.

So, basically, yes... they are only a couple of viable play lists that ppl tend to use.

My DE are still a viable competitive list, but I've grown bored of the one-two trick pony. So, they are (im)patiently waiting a new codex... which should hopefully be within a year (and a half) or so... they will be my next new codex for sure, since =][= probably won't be done until sometime around Warhammer 50k :p

Grazzy
05-05-2009, 15:15
They are both one of the worst units in the game. The DE code simply is not balanced - several units are absolutely amazing and the other half are some of the worst in the game.

Troah
05-05-2009, 15:18
Scourges are good with Splinter Cannons as troop killers and I enjoy Haemonculi very much so cause of the fun things they can get.

Bloodknight
05-05-2009, 15:44
Scourges with Splinter Cannons are *ok* (I suppose), given that they can actually move and shoot. They cost double what a normal Warrior costs, which is also another reason they are rarely seen.

Not only that, they also pay twice as much for their splinter cannons (2.5 times as much in case of Dark Lances).
Scourges are horrible, and even with their move and shoot splinter cannons not good vs troops.

A full squad with 4 splinter cannons costs 240 points!

What do you get for your points? 10 T3 5+ troops with LD8 (and no way to improve it or any other LD gimmicks; DE are the most unreliable army in the game when it comes to LD, everybody else has either a higher LD or a trick up their sleeve) that will on average kill roughly 8 Orks or a squad of Guardsmen in the open - in rapid fire range! So if they shoot to full effect, they are in assault range of the enemy, or can be rapid fired to death. Utilizing their splinter cannons at long range might look good until one realizes that that means 5-6 Orks or Guardsmen in the open (half of that in cover), and you pay 240 points for that without getting superior range - 24"...- or any survivability.

I'd rather buy two Ravagers for that kind of points. They throw out 6 small plasma cannon blasts or 18 S4 AP3 shots at the same or higher ranges and are immune to small arms. At the same time they are obviously usable vs light vehicles and any type of infantry. Splinter cannons only work vs very light infantry, a squad with 4 of them will roughly kill 2-3 SM. 2 Ravagers firing at low power will kill twice as many.

IMO, the only HS slot worth buying in the DE army is the Ravager. 3 of them, all the time.

The SkaerKrow
05-05-2009, 16:29
While I agree with most of Bloodknight's post, I would caution people not to overlook the Talos. It's a nasty piece of work that, if nothing else, can get into your opponent's head. Either my opponent ignores my Talos, it reaches them and makes a mess, or they spend a turn or two putting fire into it, which means that they're not firing at the fragile bits in my army.

Bloodknight
05-05-2009, 16:38
The Talos IMHO requires that the army is more or less built around him because he works best in multiples from a webway portal. Dropping a single T7 3+ creature is not a massive feat for most armies, killing 3 is a different thing. The problem is that you give up a lot of firepower and get a few pretty random CC creatures for it. Ravagers are a sure bet in comparison.

nightgant98c
06-05-2009, 22:15
The talos does require multiples, but they can be hard to deal with, while Ravagers are extremely fragile. I wouldn't count on them doing anything before being destroyed.

The_Outsider
06-05-2009, 22:36
What do you get for your points? 10 T3 5+ troops with LD8 (and no way to improve it or any other LD gimmicks; DE are the most unreliable army in the game when it comes to LD, everybody else has either a higher LD or a trick up their sleeve)

Oh yeah, well who needs fearless or ATSKNF when I can have trophy racks on a 30 point model!



IMO, the only HS slot worth buying in the DE army is the Ravager. 3 of them, all the time.

I endorse this product and/or service.

As far as the talos goes - it is pretty nasty, though the change to deployment order in 5th ed killed a huge advantage it had (which the wraithlord and carnifex also had). It is good and wildfire is downright broken against IG.....

....but giving up triple ravager is pretty hard, they really are complete beasts and until you hit large point games (over 2K) they are pretty much the best shooting HS tank in existence.

That said once vect hits the table DE become Iron Warriors.

Bloodknight
06-05-2009, 22:54
Yes, Vect is a beast.


Oh yeah, well who needs fearless or ATSKNF when I can have trophy racks on a 30 point model!

;)

I wouldn't mind if the trophy rack just raised LD by 1. That the Sybarite in question has to fight in CC, kill a model and not lose the CC (not that likely) to raise it makes it useless on most units, and of course especially on Scourges. What a waste of a slot. (...and I've got two squads of them because I like the models...)