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Orangecoke
06-05-2009, 04:57
Hey guys,

Is there a limit to how many Epic Actions a Hero can use per Turn?

For example, I was using Lurtz tonight. I had charged a formation with Gimli in it.

I wanted to use Epic Strike to get 10 strength, and then call a Heroic Duel against Gimli. I did have 4 might left to spend at the time.

There was some arguement in the group that I couldnt do more than one Epic Action in this phase, and the only way to use Epic Strike AND do a duel would be to issue an Epic Challenge in the movement phase.

I can't really see any rule that says this limitation is true though?



As a second question: later, Theoden charged a formation of Uruk Hai. I wanted to issue a heroic duel with my Uruk Captain (2 might) but they said I couldn't because Theoden's company wasnt in base contact with the Uruk formation. Is that correct? The way I read it, as long as the two formations are touching, the heros can duel even if they arent in base contact.

Jorgen_CAB
06-05-2009, 07:07
Well, you got suckered both times... ;)

When they refer to the rules and say you only can use one Heroic/Epic action per phase they have misread a line in the rules that tells you that each action cost one point of Might. It does not say that you only can use one point if might.
In essence you can use as many Might points in a phase as you would like to.

At you second question. It does not matter if either heroes companies are in base contact with each others formation. As long as both formations are in contact with each other heroes may duel each other. The rules for dueling does not mention anything else.

Orangecoke
06-05-2009, 16:33
Hm - on the first item (epic actions) they say they are seeing conflicting views on the forums (not just this forum). Seems like GW coulda specified it more clearly in the rules if there is or is not a limit.

Jorgen_CAB
06-05-2009, 17:31
The discussion usually are around Heroic Actions. Some people think that you only get to spend one Might per phase. This is based on the interpretation of one sentence in the rules at page 66.


any individual Hero can override the normal sequence by giving up one point of Might to make a Heroic action.

Some people interpret this as if you only can use ONE point of might to fuel ONE Heroic action. But in actuality it is telling us that we need to pay ONE point of Might to fuel an action. Not one action.
If it was the case that you only could use ONE point of might per phase you could either use a Heroic or Epic action not both. The section that describes Epic actions simply tells us that they work as regular Heroic actions with the difference that they may be called when a formation is about to act, unless the description tells otherwise that is.

So I believe that my (and others) interpretation is correct. Though, none can be 100% certain of that until there is an official FAQ released.

dtjunkie19
06-05-2009, 20:03
Interestingly enough, upon further review of that section I believe that Jorgen's interpretation (and mine and my whole gaming group up until now) is incorrect. The rule does say the hero may spend one point of might for a heroic action. Epic actions are later talked about as being treated like heroic actions. Note it doesn't say they may spend a point of might for a heroic action, but rather one point. It also doesnt say one point per action, but rather one point for a heroic action. It never says you can spend more than one, and to quote the book, pg 66 "any individual hero can override the normal sequence by giving up one point of might to make a heroic action."

Now that is still rather unclear, so I looked to White Dwarf and the Rulebook for all of GW's battle reports for WotR. Now what convinced me is that I saw not once an occaison where one of the GW staff called multiple heroic/epic actions per turn. This includes the pelannor fields batrep, the one in the beginning of the rulebook, etc. It seems funny that they would not take advantage of the ability to call more than one heroic/epic action per turn.

Finally to figure out the intent of the rules, It makes more sense with the one per phase (not 1 per turn that would be silly) because it makes captain's much less of a liability (and perhaps useful) and it doesn't make epic strike as powerful as it is under (my group's at least) current interpretation. It also helps to make certain other combinations slightly harder to pull off (ex. amdur epic strike, epic rampage, heroic fight? Combined with a strength from corruption or in a already strong unit like half trolls(or gimli/dain with khazad guard) means you will cause huge casualities with the epic strike/epic rampage, win combat if not massacre the enemy formation, then charge again and repeat).

So I believe it's best, at least until a FAQ comes out stating otherwise, to limit the amount of epic/heroic actions per hero per phase to 1.

edit:

the second issue you had they are wrong on. It says on pg 67, "if they wish, players can move the two heroes so that the companies they occupy are in base contact -- there is no need to do this, but it looks suitably dramatic."

So no they dont need to be in base contact

Jorgen_CAB
06-05-2009, 20:32
OK, I will counter arguing myself now... ;)

I have gone over all the current material in the battle reports from GW. There are two in the rule book and one on the web. I have also closely looked at the Might Guide at the GW web page.

Nowhere does a hero ever use more than one Might point in a phase, even when it obviously would be beneficial to do so. So this is strongly reinforcing the belief that you only can spend one Might point for an action per phase.

The problem I see with this is the combination of Heroic Dual and Epic Strike. The problem is that Challenging anyone with Epic Strike is suicide as long as they have Might points left. The reason for this is that you either can issue a Duel or an Epic Strike.
Though, when digging further there is such a situation. Namely Gimli who challanges the Dark Marshal in one of the battle reports. The Marshal has his single Might point left but he does not Epic Strike. This leaves me to believe to the following...

1. The player was simply stupid....
2. Epic Strike can only be called after a duel but before the formation fights. The duel does not make the Formation activate.

The Epic Strike are never called during the normal queue, it is always called just before a fight is about to be resolved.

Some strange things can thus happen when for example Theodred calls an Epic Intervention. If he has an action in the queue, what happens to it?
Is it used up out of sequence or what?
The same thing with Gothmog I believe.

The text in the Epic section that describe how Epic actions are used does not directly tell us that we can choose whether to use them at the start or not. That is described in the text of each Epic action. The general text only tells us that they don't always are declared at the start but instead when the formation is about to act.

I don't say that this is the way that it really works, but you could interpret this from the rules and all the material from the Web and the battle reports from the rule book seem to support this at least.

I'm not claiming this is how it works, but I think it would clean up some misconceptions of how certain combos are overkill and broken.

I really think that the ruels are a mess right now... I really don't know what to believe anymore... :(

Jorgen_CAB
06-05-2009, 20:34
Bah.. you beat me to it when I came to the same conclusions... :)

dtjunkie19
06-05-2009, 21:46
The rules aren't a mess, yes there are things that need to be explained. However the system runs well, is IMO well balanced, especially for a first edition of a game system. The rules are fun and simple, yet have depth.

One quick FAQ would address all of the questions we have all came up with. And even without one, I have yet to see one "broken" rule or unit. Somethings may be over/under costed, but nothing to the point which it really effects the way the game plays.

edit: The only fault of the system is how it attempts to keep things simple. In doing so, some of the rules are implicitly stated rather than explicitly documented. This is great, however it does require that an FAQ address vague and unclear situations that will crop up.

Jorgen_CAB
06-05-2009, 22:01
Yes, but there are things that obviously makes poeple run in circles... that is the mess I'm talking about.

When can you activate the Epic Strike?
The text imply that you can activate it when the Hero fight, which imply it can be activated as part of a duel. Yet that never happens during any battlereport, not even when it would be critical and appropriate to do so. If you only can use one heroic/epic action per phase it would be more or less suicide to duel a Ringwraith. The first one to do so will certainly die.


We also have the debate over when the Heroic/Epic Actions within a queue is resolved. For example if a Heroic Fight is resolved before a Heroic Duel if it is first in the queue.

All these questions need to be answered becasue they would leave a huge impact on armylists and tactics during a game, not to mention what models you want to have.

It would also be fun if you could play by the rules as they were intended to be played. :)

dtjunkie19
06-05-2009, 22:24
on your first issue, the answer seems to be that it was intended that dueling a ringwraith doesn't provide it a "due to act" status and therefore cant epic strike. It was never done in the batreps, so unless they have less intellegence than a small child it seems the intent is that you cannot epic strike in response to a duel.

Its funny though, I argued the other way before, but in light of this new information, it seems a lot clearer what the RAI are. and the RAW dont contradict this interpretation. They are just slightly too vague to fully answer either way.

to the second issue I still think the text of a heroic fight does not say that you finish the fight before other heroic actions. However yes, a FAQ could be useful.

Reinholt
07-05-2009, 01:34
Regarding Gimli and The Dark Marshal:

If we assume that actions resolve in the order they were called, namely that:

Duel happens, then Epic Strike happens, there would be no reason to call Epic Strike after the duel. You would have to call it BEFORE the duel, which would probably prevent someone from dueling you (and thus might be a viable defensive tactic).

This would also mean that actions are literally worked out in the order they are declared, with the possible exception of Heroic Fight (which specifies different language in the action itself than any other heroic or epic action, and thus, I think the jury is still out on that one).

Jorgen_CAB
07-05-2009, 06:41
Regarding Duel and Heroic Fight, we play it exactly as you describe, because it seems the most logical solution, but I still think it is a matter of interpretation of the intent of the rules.

The problem as I see with the Epic Strike (and a few others) is that the rules section for Epic actions does not tell us that we actually can choose to use the Epic Strike and call it at the start of the fight phase. You call it when the hero fight. At least that is how I read the text.
The problem with using the Epic Strike in the queue order is that all the duels is fought at the start of each combat. This is after all the Heroic actions are resolved but before any fights, or am I wrong in that assumption?
It's hard to find a good interpretation of this from the battle reports. Though, in the battle reports it looks as if each duel are fough just before combat, not according to the queue. Logic tells me that you should be able to call the Epic Strike (and other similar actions) at the start of the phase and/or when the formation is about to act. The question is when it takes effect. Before or after a duel (is it depending on when you called it).


Another question...

Epic Challenge are called in the Movement phase, it requires you to duel for free in the coming fight phase. Does this mean that you must call the Duel but it is free, or that you are free to call any other actions in the fight phase?
If it is free and you never have to actually call it, will it automatically be first or last according to the queue?
I really can't determine this from the text of Epic Challenge.

dtjunkie19
07-05-2009, 06:57
if you must call the duel, i would say you have to actually call it in the queue. However it just doesn't cost might.

It really seems like that to epic strike before a duel one would have to call it at the beginning of the phase (before the opponent duels you).

Jorgen_CAB
07-05-2009, 07:46
It really seems like that to epic strike before a duel one would have to call it at the beginning of the phase (before the opponent duels you).
It seems logical...

Though, regarding the Epic Challenge. It really seems dangerous to resolve as you suggested. If you Epic Challenge an Epic Hero that can Epic Strike there is a 50% chance that he calls Epic Strike before you "must" call the Heroic Duel.

I think it would be more balanced if the duel simply was automatic and worked out just before the combat between those formations (that is what the text in Epic Challange says anyway). That gives both combatants the opportunity to call an Epic Strike in the duel.

dvdhwk
08-05-2009, 05:42
Interestingly enough, upon further review of that section I believe that Jorgen's interpretation (and mine and my whole gaming group up until now) is incorrect. The rule does say the hero may spend one point of might for a heroic action. Epic actions are later talked about as being treated like heroic actions. Note it doesn't say they may spend a point of might for a heroic action, but rather one point. It also doesnt say one point per action, but rather one point for a heroic action. It never says you can spend more than one, and to quote the book, pg 66 "any individual hero can override the normal sequence by giving up one point of might to make a heroic action."

What about the "Touched by destiny" ability? It says:

"A model with this rule may call a single Epic action each turn without expending a Might point. Further actions may be called at the usual cost." p. 69.

Seems clear to me, that there is an intent for multiple epic actions a turn.



Now that is still rather unclear, so I looked to White Dwarf and the Rulebook for all of GW's battle reports for WotR. Now what convinced me is that I saw not once an occaison where one of the GW staff called multiple heroic/epic actions per turn. This includes the pelannor fields batrep, the one in the beginning of the rulebook, etc. It seems funny that they would not take advantage of the ability to call more than one heroic/epic action per turn.

I'd be careful with this. It might be okay to look to battle reports to show evidence of particular rule interpretation. But using the absence of evidence to point to as evidence of absence (or inability to use a rule in a particular way) is shaky ground.

dtjunkie19
08-05-2009, 06:45
Well I cited pg 66 plus support from the Battle reports in the book and white dwarf. Besides, I am suggesting one epic action per hero per phase. Not per turn, as the touched by destiny rules specify. So you can call one free, then in other phases call others

dvdhwk
08-05-2009, 07:34
Well I cited pg 66 plus support from the Battle reports in the book and white dwarf.
That's fine. I'm not saying you only cited the batreps, I'm just saying that using them to support your argument is logically dangerous, because they do not give evidence of your interpretation. Again the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Regarding your reading of p. 66, you are interpreting it to be a rule of allowance. That is, that it limits epic actions to one per phase (once). If we were looking at an issue of allowance or frequency, the term "once" would likely be involved.

For consideration, the Shooting rules state:
"...but each can only shoot once each turn." p. 36
To me, that seems like a no duh, but they felt obliged to make that restriction certain. There is no such restriction for using heroic actions. Once or once per phase is an indication of frequency.

I, on the other hand, believe the rule in question to be a rule of cost, indicating what it costs to make an Heroic action. I believe this is the case because the "one" is in reference to the point of might (the cost), not in reference to the heroic action. In other words it doesn't limit the number of heroic actions, but rather states the cost of using an heroic action. In this context, "one" is a reference to cost.

If the rule had been phrased as "...by giving up a point of might to make one heroic action..." then I would be more inclined to think that it was limiting the heroic actions to one per phase.

Similarly if it said "...by giving up one point of might for each heroic action they wish to make..." then it would support my position.



Besides, I am suggesting one epic action per hero per phase. Not per turn, as the touched by destiny rules specify. So you can call one free, then in other phases call others. You're correct. It would only indicate that you could use more than one per turn, but not necessarily more than one per phase. I was incorrect in applying that implication to multiple action per phase.

Angelust
08-05-2009, 17:46
White Dwarf bat-reps are like the "Real World" of GW's gaming. Looking there for any rules clarification is really untrustworthy. For instance, I looked at the Chaos batrep when Fantasy released their new chaos line, and Phil Kelly, the writer of the army book, was getting EotG rolls for every champion his character killed. They later FAQed this to say this was totally wrong.

The bat-reps are also usually done with incomplete or early versions of the rules, and the gameplay is highly staged to try and bring a cinematic report that'll encourage more sales.

Having Gimli challenge, and then a Ring-wraith unceremoniously Epic Fight him to death without really any chance for Gimli to win would be a no-no I think in Bat-rep stagery.

Reinholt
08-05-2009, 21:28
I have been thinking about this one and have decided it is time to weigh in on it.

The statement in question is this, from page 66:


During the Move, Shoot, Charge or Fight phase, any individual Hero can override the normal sequence by giving up one point of Might to make a Heroic action.

Some people believe this means you may only use a point of might once in a phase, and thus are limited to one action.

Some people believe this simply means it costs one point of might for an action, but you can declare more than one and pay a point of might each time.

Who is correct?

There is no way to know.

This is what I would refer to as a "technical" failure of the language of the rules; there is literally no way to discern from the text of the book what the intent was, because the statement used could be describing either possibility accurately.

In this case, the uncertainty stems from the language that is used, as the inherent meaning is unclear. Without either:

"A hero may do this as many times as he wishes, so long as he pays a point of might each time" or "A hero may only expend a single point of might during each phase" there is no way to resolve this debate. We have circumstantial evidence that points in both directions, depending on where you look, but this is a failure that even resorting to RAW and RAI cannot overcome, and is the sort of thing that probably needs and FAQ.

To make this more clear, a similar linguistic example would be:

"A player may pay X points and field one company of Warriors of Minas Tirith."

Okay. Well, does that mean you can pay X points once and only ever field one company? Or does that mean you can pay X points to field one company and may do this as often as you wish?

Notice that, on page 94, they actually list how many companies may be fielded (1-6). This is what I mean; without additional clarification, there is literally no way to know from the language used. It is inherently unclear, as both meanings are grammatically correct in this case.

I would suggest you discuss it with your opponent beforehand.

Axis
12-05-2009, 01:08
I would suggest you discuss it with your opponent beforehand.

They should make this auto-posted after any rules clarifications...

Quannum
14-05-2009, 13:23
Once again, Reinholt's nailed it.

There is equal argument to support wither side and we must wait for an FAQ.

I shall start a thread in the Rules Forum to compile and collate all the questions that we need answering. If you have any, submit them in that thread, and I'll update the OP accordingly.

The thread is called "[WOTR] Questions to be FAQ'd"

Q