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View Full Version : Who deserves a Codex first? Dark Eldar or Space Wolves?



The Emperor
06-05-2009, 13:50
Both the Space Wolves and the Dark Eldar are pretty bad off and in dire need of a Codex. The only question is, who needs it more? Let's look at the downsides.

The Space Wolves
- They're the only Space Marine army still stuck with a "mini-dex", that horrid idea GW came up with during 3rd edition which required Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves players to buy Codex: Space Marines in order to get their entire army list. Two editions later, long after the Codex: Space Marines that it was tied to has become obsolete, they're still dependent on that horrid mini-dex.

The Dark Eldar
- They've got a horrid miniature line which has NEVER been updated.
- Their Codex was only the second to be released with the advent of 3rd edition, and is currently the oldest Codex still in use, today. And worse yet, their Codex was released at a time when GW was producing Codex's which were almost entirely bereft of any racial history or background. And since they're a (relatively) new army, there aren't any older Codex's that players can look to for a more indepth history. The net result being that they're not really new player friendly, as a lot of players will look at that Codex and still not really have much of a clue about who the Dark Eldar are and what they're about (aside from the fact that they're "evil").

All in all, both armies got the shaft hard in 3rd edition. A situation which wasn't remedied later on in the life of 3rd edition, as it was for other armies like Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Guard. A situation which STILL wasn't remedied during the lifetime of 4th edition. Two entire editions without anything done to fix either army. And now here we are in 5th edition, and it looks as if the Space Wolves and Dark Eldar will finally, FINALLY, get the update they both deserve and desperately need. So what say you, folks? Who needs it more? The Space Wolves with their crippled shell of a Codex, or the Dark Eldar, with their horrid miniature line and flimsy, fluffless pamphlet of a Codex?

The_Outsider
06-05-2009, 14:00
As much as the DE player in me pains that we have to wait - SW deserve it first for one simple fact: it is the most broken codex in the game at the moment (because as you say, the codex SM it was tied to is long gone).

5 Point storm shields is okay when they were CC only, but 5 points for that save on wolf guard terminators (who can pretty much take what they want) is not right. It just escalates from there - like using the much cheaper SM costs for vehicles and the fact you can take more venerable dreads that should be sane (iirc at least).

DE do have a monumental amount of issues that need addressing but the last 2 codices that ended up like SW are now (3.5 chas and craftworld eldar) got nerfed out of existence.

Souleater
06-05-2009, 14:30
My gut reaction is Dark Eldar.

Oldest codex in active use (the '2nd Edition' update only reallly added a couple of rules). Some foul, ugly miniatures. Many of the units (half I think) are useless. Unfortunately the remaining units are good enough to carry the rest of the list. So little background in the slimline dex that debate continues today as to whether Dark Eldar are slaves to She Who Thirsts or Her mortal enemies.

SW on the other hand...can use some bits and pieces from the modern SM dex. Variant 13th Co List was quite fun (although SM have since stolen one of the SW powers WTF!?!?) They've had a couple of very nice figures from FW and Citadel. Not sure how they fare in 5th but I think they have more viable units than Dark Eldar.

So for me, Dark Eldar. And please, no 'Well you don't want them to rush it, do you?' rubbish...that's got old after five years.

IrishDelinquent
06-05-2009, 14:32
Hmmmm, an army that is brimming with players, and that is in desparate need of new background and models? Or, an "army" that is little more than an offshoot of another army. Easy, the Dark Eldar need an update first. The Space Vikings need to wait their turn.

Orcboy_Phil
06-05-2009, 14:36
Spacewolves where my first army and are still dear to my heart but I reckon it has to go to the Sadomasochistic elves, especially if they get a whole new range of models.

The_Outsider
06-05-2009, 14:37
Thing is, SW do not need any more models (which is the longest part of the development cycle), SW could be knocked out in say, 8 months.

Troah
06-05-2009, 14:37
Dark Eldar. Every type of Space Marines are too babied by GW. Ever notice that just about every single picture in the rule book is a Space Marine. Humanity is too favored, give the fallen Eldar some lovin'.

Inquisitor Engel
06-05-2009, 14:42
They'll both probably be out by the end of the year, so what's the issue?

Dark Eldar need the update to remain competitive, but need the COMPLETE refresh, which takes time. Wolves are still pretty competitive, but don't need much model work (SW Accessory sprue and characters, you're done) both can be worked on pretty much concurrently.

Souleater
06-05-2009, 14:42
Thing is, SW do not need any more models (which is the longest part of the development cycle), SW could be knocked out in say, 8 months.

I don't think the original question was which would be most expediant but rather which army needs the update more.

Captain Micha
06-05-2009, 14:43
Dark Eldar: easily. This isn't even a contest.

Space Wolves are marines that happen to be painted Grey.

Helicon_One
06-05-2009, 14:46
Funny thing is that you didn't really need Codex:Space Marines to play a Space Wolf army - you only would use it if you needed the statlines for attack bikes or some of the tanks.

Either way, Dark Eldar need the list more.

Charistoph
06-05-2009, 14:47
"Half" of the SW codex has been updated since 3rd Edition.

DE haven't been touched since 3rd Edition.

By virtue of lack of any updates, DE win hands down.

W0lf
06-05-2009, 14:51
Space wolves.

They will sell better

Nero
06-05-2009, 14:52
Hard to say, they're both unnecessary codexs championed by a vocal minority. How about neither, and instead the time is spent on an army that is played by more than 3 people collectively?

At a push though, Dark Eldar. They have the potential to be a cool army, whereas Space Wolves are just another defunct variant. The current Space Marine codex can represent them just fine.

Captain Micha
06-05-2009, 14:52
Space wolves.

They will sell better

I seriously doubt that.

Souleater
06-05-2009, 14:55
Space wolves.

They will sell better

Mmaaaaybe...if people don't just paint standard SWs grey or buy old SW figures off ebay....

Few people will buy old Dark Eldar figures when the new ones come out. Evil Space Elf Vampire Pirates as done by Jes Goodwin...

W0lf
06-05-2009, 14:59
I seriously doubt that.

Then your wrong.

Marines by far outsell anything GW produce. DE actually have a pretty good codex and no one plays them. Plus they would have to redo the entire DE range as they are ***** models.

Space wolves are being released in time for gamesday and trust me they will sell like hotcakes.

Or do you doubt Space wolves have a larger following then DE? Seriously if they deleted DE from the game about 100 people would care, about 50 would use the eldar codex and their imagination and.. oh no wait theres no more DE players.

x-esiv-4c
06-05-2009, 15:01
Dark eldar for sure. They have an extensive line that needs to be redone.

Lotoc_Sabbath
06-05-2009, 15:04
I have never played against or with any of these two armies but between these two I think no one deserves more than the other one. They both need a new codex.

However above all this for me Necrons are the ones who deserve it more!!!

Awilla the Hun
06-05-2009, 15:13
Necrons were released after the Dark Eldar got their codex. Now, don't get me wrong, the two times that I played the Dark Eldar, I lost. (First to inexperience, second to stupidity.) But it is quite clear to me that they urgently need an update. Their models still look decent enough in my (untutored) eyes but, compared to later release list, their army simply looks dull. Endless masses of strength 3, armour 10 all round, fast vehicles, and that's it. Consider Necrons: you get heavy infantry, jetbikes, a massive tank, excellent fluff, a still very potent special rule that lets your troops live for a long time (apart from in close combat, but I doubt that an I2 Tactical Squad was ever meant to take Assault Marines barehanded), and pretty good models. And Space Wolves have, like others have said, been indirectly updated a fair bit, and were only ever half an army.

I'm no Dark Eldar fan, but let them have another go.

laudarkul
06-05-2009, 15:14
I voted SW. DE deserves more but they need also a major refit of models which takes long time)/new fluff. Beside since the rumor put the SW codex this year and the DE next year...

shaso_iceborn
06-05-2009, 15:14
Then your wrong.

Marines by far outsell anything GW produce. DE actually have a pretty good codex and no one plays them. Plus they would have to redo the entire DE range as they are ***** models.

Space wolves are being released in time for gamesday and trust me they will sell like hotcakes.

Or do you doubt Space wolves have a larger following then DE? Seriously if they deleted DE from the game about 100 people would care, about 50 would use the eldar codex and their imagination and.. oh no wait theres no more DE players.

Actually I myself know well over 100 different Dark Eldar players. Now given the fact I know les than 1% of 40k players I think there are plenty of Dark Eldar players out there. Almost everyone I know who plays 40k (older 3rd edition vets) has a Dark Eldar army because the concept was cool. Most are just waiting for an update to play there now dust filled army. Yes several have other armies as well but these are people who started with Dark Eldar. Just because somethng is a not liked by your "ignorance of vision" does not mean it should go away.

*note that ignorance means lack of

Troah
06-05-2009, 15:16
Yay Dark Eldars! XD I almost said Dark Elves lol.

The SkaerKrow
06-05-2009, 15:21
I love the whole "no one plays them" mentality that people seem to have about Dark Eldar. I know more Dark Eldar players than Craftworld Eldar, Imperial Guard, Tau, Necron, *Hunters, Chaos Daemon, Dark Angel, Blood Angel or Space Wolf players. If "no one played them," then that wouldn't be the case. So while they might not have the largest market share, they definitely have an appreciable following.

I voted for Dark Eldar, though if I'd take either or as long as we could be promised that both armies will constitute the next two releases.

Max_Killfactor
06-05-2009, 15:28
Space wolves.

They will sell better

Space Wolves are certainly the safer option for GW.

Since GW is redoing the entire DE line, it means even the long time Dark Eldar players will be starting from zero.

Space Wolves will probably just have a few new kits and current SW players will buy those, but they won't be starting from scratch. Only new SW players will buy whole armies.

I think the potential for DE is much higher, but it's riskier and requires more initial investment (a lot of new molds and stuff). I think DE will sell better due to the entire range being redone, but I'm not sure if they will be more profitable due to the higher costs.

Ubermensch Commander
06-05-2009, 15:35
While my preference would be Dark Eldar, my answer to this would be "whichever is closest to being done, and whichever can be released first without cutting corners and releasing slop work."
As a Dark Eldar player, although this must be a lie since "no one plays them", I would like the codex for my army to be put forth. Although the current/ancient DE codex is still capable of being competitive I just want new stuff to see what new direction they can go in, particularly models. The picture of the Raider in the 5th edition book made me grin like a loon. Was one sleek and sexy looking vehicle. If they can do that decent with a model, ill be happy.

On the other hand I (more or less) agree with Outsider's earlier post regarding the "broken" nature of the Space Wolf Codex. Only played against it....twice...recently(which is to say within the last two years) and that was some SCARY builds. Defintely not points costed appropriately.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
06-05-2009, 15:38
It's a moot point, pretty much every rumor points to SW being the next codex in line, with DE waiting till next year.

I personally hate the idea of a DE army, to me it always seemed like the game designers were sitting in a meeting trying to think of a new army till one guy said "Hey, we have elves in space, right? So why not have (drumroll please) DARK elves in space?" They were a half-assed army to begin with, poorly written with terrible models.

But they aren't getting squatted (and army hate or not, I would never wish that on a fellow player) and thus are a prime candidate for a new codex IMHO. They desperately need the new models at least.

Lovejoy
06-05-2009, 15:41
I'd be happy to see Dark Eldar disappear altogether ( don't hurt me!) - the whole 'spiky Eldar' thing just doesn't work for me. And they never sold well either. I've managed a couple of GW stores and SWs massively outsold DE. Remember, SWs were so popular that they were the first Chapter specific plastics.

Dark Eldar, despite being in the 3rd edition box set, never sold well. We ran a painting competition 3 times a year, and offered a special edition 100 DE army box as a prize, or 40 of any other army. After 3 years, the DE box was still in the storeroom.

So I reckon GW should stick with what sells, especially in this economic climate.

On the other hand, I'd quite like to see Exodites...:evilgrin:

FraustyTheSnowman
06-05-2009, 15:46
My vote is dark eldar. I think Outsider brings up some very good points. The only thing I can truely say in counter is thus...I DONT CARE. Marines get enough love from the fans and games workshop in my opinion, so I absolutely will not vote for something in power armor on any poll like this. I feel the tyranids deserve a codex update before space wolves, and I don't think the tyranids deserve one at all. Lost and the Damned fell between the cracks when the new chaos codex came out, and so they are dead and gone. As far as I'm concerned space wolves are in the same sunk boat.

Fire Harte
06-05-2009, 15:47
Space Pups, givin' the dog a bone! :evilgrin:

EDIT: But no I say dark space elfs.

Vassakov
06-05-2009, 16:06
Ok, my view is this. The Dark Eldar need a complete reboot, model and fluff wise. But their Codex is still very much playable, with a few FAQ's and a bit of common sense. Trust me, they are still a nasty army if played well. They have a few uncompetitive units, but thats hardly limited to DE - Flash Gitz, Vanguard, Furies, Possessed, Deathstrike Missiles? That's just the more recent Codices.

SW's, on the other hand really need a new CODEX - simply because the old one is probably the hardest to play properly in the current system owing to the supplemental nature of the dex.

So, to sum it up - Wolves need the Codex more, DE deserve the whole release treatment.

Captain Micha
06-05-2009, 16:27
If SW want a new codex, they should just open Codex Space Marines.

Bloodknight
06-05-2009, 16:38
Dark Eldar, despite being in the 3rd edition box set, never sold well.

Make that "because", not "despite". GW did not do their new race a huge favour by creating an unbelievably lopsided starter box that made the spiky ones look like the weakest army ever. Imagine: 20 DE warriors with 2 splinter cannons and 18 splinter rifles vs 10 tac marines with a flamer, a missile launcher, 7 boltguns and a Landspeeder with a heavy bolter. The DE guys could not even touch that one because it outranged them by 12".

Jammybee
06-05-2009, 18:10
I have never liked DE, their cartoony-evil background and awful figures do nothing for me. They need to make the figures less dreadful or just let them die and bring in a better race.

Grimtuff
06-05-2009, 18:20
If SW want a new codex, they should just open Codex Space Marines.

That statement could not have more ignorance in it if it tried. :rolleyes:

Erm, the only similarities SW share with SM is the fact they wear power armour and use the same tanks.

That's it.

The entire SW chapter structure and fighting style is so different from codex SM that you cannot accuratley and faithfully represent them without a seperate codex.

Tell, me. how do I represent 15 strong Blood Claw packs with a WG and several Power Fists/Weapons? How do you do Wolf Scouts? Wolf Priests?

The answer is you cannot. If you are going to make an ill informed statement like that again I suggest you back it up, as well you really have not got a leg to stand on with how you think SW play.

Tell me, do you think DE should use the CWE codex. As they're the same race aren't they? :rolleyes:

BuFFo
06-05-2009, 18:25
Dark Eldar, without a question, but it doesn't matter who deserves a codex first, Space Wolves are up next anyway.

PhalanxLord
06-05-2009, 18:44
I say SW because half of the items in their book don't do anything because they ceased to exist or the abilities changed (Iron Priests can't fix vehicles, bionics and several other items do nothing), they have a couple of things that some believe are ambiguous (Rhino/Razorback point costs for example), and a large chunk of the stuff they can take weren't even invented back when they came out (Ironclads, the two LR varients, attack bike units without normal bikes, etc). DE, while old, at least have a full codex with all of their items having rules. SW need a new book rather badly.


Hard to say, they're both unnecessary codexs championed by a vocal minority. How about neither, and instead the time is spent on an army that is played by more than 3 people collectively?

At a push though, Dark Eldar. They have the potential to be a cool army, whereas Space Wolves are just another defunct variant. The current Space Marine codex can represent them just fine.

ROFLcopter. Using current Space Marines to represent SW is like using the current marine book to represent Necrons. LR=Monolith, Lord=SM Commander, necrons=tac marine, etc. Or maybe you want to represent chaos as the current marines and remove Codex:CSM. The divergence is roughly the same. Hell, you'd be better off using SW count as CSM than SW count as SM in terms of similarity. Maybe you should take a look at the army before saying things like that. DE are a lot more like Eldar than SW are like SM.

whiskeytango
06-05-2009, 18:49
Dark Eldar, for 2 reasons:

A) Full Armies>Chapters
and
B) Space Marines need to stop being so coddled by GW. If you consider vanilla marines and their variants armies unto themselves, SM represent a full 1/3 of the armies in the game. Thats pretty heavy overrepresentation.

Maidel
06-05-2009, 19:06
B) Space Marines need to stop being so coddled by GW. If you consider vanilla marines and their variants armies unto themselves, SM represent a full 1/3 of the armies in the game. Thats pretty heavy overrepresentation.

Which, if you think logically - is a reason to do more of them.

1) Players obviously want them, or else 1/3 of people wouldnt be playing them
2) It will make more money for GW because more people will buy them...

do I need to go on?

bocaj
06-05-2009, 19:09
Deark eldar, necrons, space wolves, Inqusition

the1stpip
06-05-2009, 19:10
It is amusing how so many people DON'T play Dark Eldar.

There are three regular players at my club (I am one of them) and yet, I have only ever known 2 Space Wolf players in my 15 years in the hobby.

I wish they would stop the glut of Space Marine Codices. Space Puppies are deserving of their own codex, as they ARE non-codex, unlike other green and red Marines.

I would love the Dark Eldar codex to be out next, but they are on their way, and then hopefully Crons and daemonhunters will get some love.

And I doubt they will sell many more SW as every man and their dog laready have a Space Marine army. Most of those won't want a second.

valdrog
06-05-2009, 19:32
Frack them both, the Squats need a new Codex !

Logarithm Udgaur
06-05-2009, 19:43
Obviously Dark Eldar deserve there codex first. It is older and has no other option (using Codex:Eldar would make most opponents cry foul).
Equally as obvious is that Codex: Space Wolves will come out first. They are space marines after all.

Max_Killfactor
06-05-2009, 20:22
DE, while old, at least have a full codex with all of their items having rules.

Not quite. Gruesome talismans no longer have any effect. I know it's minor, but hey.. you did say "all" :cool:

And I would argue that DE are the only current army to never receive a full codex. Space Wolves and Blood Angels can both fall back on their old codices (second edition?) if they want background material.... or any of the dozens of books written about each of them.

DE are the only new army to come out in the age of slim codices. Tau and Necrons both benefitted from the thicker ones and I think that was a major factor in their relative success compared to DE.

firechao
06-05-2009, 20:40
I play SW, but i guess DE.
They're both still pretty competitive, but Dark Eldar just need the all-around things more. SW need some price balances, maybe some new rules to balance them with the other chapters, but DE need some units completely reworked, SW just need some HS (LF and LRE) and some other tweaks, DE need HS (Talos be brought in line with some other monstrous creatures the JP guys better, and their tank a bit better) , raider cheapened (just a little, as all transports were cheapened, so should the raider) make tanks a bit better and the elites well, more useful (mandrakes and some other bugs).

The Emperor
06-05-2009, 23:07
Not quite. Gruesome talismans no longer have any effect. I know it's minor, but hey.. you did say "all" :cool:

And I would argue that DE are the only current army to never receive a full codex. Space Wolves and Blood Angels can both fall back on their old codices (second edition?) if they want background material.... or any of the dozens of books written about each of them.

DE are the only new army to come out in the age of slim codices. Tau and Necrons both benefitted from the thicker ones and I think that was a major factor in their relative success compared to DE.

Yeah, I remember when I got that Codex I was hoping mad at how it was almost completely bereft of any useful information. I had NO idea what the deal was with the Dark Eldar. Where were they from? What was their history? What was their motivation? I only got the barest shred of information from the occasional sidebar here and there. It was pathetic. That has to be the absolute worst way to introduce a brand new army. They released a brand new army with zero info on its history or how it fit into the universe. How in the world could GW think that that was a good idea?

PhalanxLord
06-05-2009, 23:16
Not quite. Gruesome talismans no longer have any effect. I know it's minor, but hey.. you did say "all" :cool:

And I would argue that DE are the only current army to never receive a full codex. Space Wolves and Blood Angels can both fall back on their old codices (second edition?) if they want background material.... or any of the dozens of books written about each of them.

DE are the only new army to come out in the age of slim codices. Tau and Necrons both benefitted from the thicker ones and I think that was a major factor in their relative success compared to DE.

All the 4th ed codexes pretty much have some sort of item that doesn't work (ex: Thornback for nids), but they still technically have rules, even if they don't do anything. SW can actually take some items that don't have any rules. Bionics no longer have rules, so taking them is essentially trying to get a null pointer to return a value and they have a lot of items like that.

SW Items that have no rules:
Bionics
Auspex
Fang of Morkai
Wolf Helm of Russ
Wolf Totem

They also have a couple of special rule that do nothing (No Matter the Odds) and some things that no longer work how they're supposed to (Iron Priests). I don't have the DE book, but I doubt they have nearly as many things broken as SW do right now and I know SW are more competitive at the moment but SW can be very confusing for a lot of people right now because of the reference page (which is no longer used for anything), point values (Rhinos, Razorbacks of whom people don't know which value to use, tanks which now use different values), and half the army wide rules don't work and are now taken from other places (core rulebook, SM codex).

Ruleswise and modelwise DE need an upgrade more. However, GW seems to be putting a lot of focus on accessibility and simplicity. The current SW book probably looks pretty intimidating to a new player right now because very little of it actually works right now and there's a lot of contridictions that are dealt with in the FAQ. I'm not against a new DE book in the least-> I just think that a lot of people don't realise how badly SW need a new rulebook, or at least a two-second re-write that details where everything is currently from and removing the stuff that does nothing. If we had an SW book that was written the way it currently works, then I would agree that DE should get a new book before. But because the way the SW rules work and the way they're written differ in so many places, I would say SW need one a lot more.

You may disagree about what I said about the current SW rules being confusing, but most of you also likely have several years of experience through 2 or more different rules sets. Someone wanting to just start up the game would look at SW and "WTF is this supposed to mean?" and the current FAQ doesn't answer everything. At least with DE there's not nearly as much ambiguity (or at least I haven't really heard of any).

That being said, I do want a new DE book. I don't play DE, but they do seem rather interesting and their models don't come close to doing them justice.

Bregalad
06-05-2009, 23:26
Pointless poll (and with biased and incomplete options as most polls here).

Why release Dark Eldar when they are not ready? Why not release Space Wolves when they are ready? BTW while both Codices are ancient, both are still competitive (SW because of references to the resp. current SM Codex).

Logarithm Udgaur
07-05-2009, 00:11
Any opinion poll is useless if you try to look at it as anything other than opinion. As for bias, that is exactly what an opinion poll measures.

The Emperor
07-05-2009, 00:22
Pointless poll (and with biased and incomplete options as most polls here).

That doesn't really make sense. The question is who should get a codex first, Dark Eldar or Space Wolves. The poll options are Dark Eldar and Space Wolves. It's a binary question with only two possible answers, and those answers are available as poll options. Doesn't strike me as particularly incomplete.


Why release Dark Eldar when they are not ready? Why not release Space Wolves when they are ready?

Clearly nobody's claiming that something should be released when it's not ready, or that something shouldn't be released when it is ready. People are just stating their preference for what they'd want first. And if GW wanted Dark Eldar to come out first, then they can focus their resources towards putting Dark Eldar out first, in which case Dark Eldar would be ready before Space Wolves. And if they focused their resources towards putting Space Wolves out first, then Space Wolves would be ready before Dark Eldar.

Whatever the case, if you're not a fan of polls, why post just to complain?

brgerkng
07-05-2009, 00:43
I put a vote for DE, but in my opinion SW need a update just as much.

There are issues when it comes to "what codex should get a update?" questions. No matter how you look at it or what gets released some group of people get upset about it. Just look at the amount of posts in this thread complaining about one book or the other, or how another book isn't even mentioned.

Also consider, with the amount of armies available some are going to end up getting more work done than the other and some will fall by the wayside. Its GW's call on what gets worked on and as a business they will work on what the consumer base will buy. Cutting support for a army might lose some customers and product variety, but the resources will (hopefully) get spent on improving quality on what they do support. Of course you can go too far. Look at how many space marine products are out. Most businesses don't want to rely on one product line for a majority of their sales.

Now I ask the question: The current release schedule is what, a codex every 5 or 6 months. Would you rather have a new codex every 2 or 3 months but have the codex poorly written? (not that I think GW thoroughly playtests anyways...)

Bregalad
07-05-2009, 01:01
That doesn't really make sense. The question is who should get a codex first, Dark Eldar or Space Wolves. The poll options are Dark Eldar and Space Wolves. It's a binary question with only two possible answers, and those answers are available as poll options. Doesn't strike me as particularly incomplete.
Okay, then I vote "Neither".:rolleyes:



Clearly nobody's claiming that something should be released when it's not ready, or that something shouldn't be released when it is ready. People are just stating their preference for what they'd want first. And if GW wanted Dark Eldar to come out first, then they can focus their resources towards putting Dark Eldar out first, in which case Dark Eldar would be ready before Space Wolves. And if they focused their resources towards putting Space Wolves out first, then Space Wolves would be ready before Dark Eldar.
Seems, like you didn't follow the Dark Eldar rumours. DE receive a complete new range of miniatures by Jes Goodwin. Making these takes time, they are not ready and this causes the delays. Redirecting ressources doesn't change the fact that Jes has to do all sculpts. Saying "but I want them now" doesn't help or change the situation.

Whatever the case, if you're not a fan of polls, why post just to complain?
Nothing against polls in general, only against pointless polls badly executed.

ehlijen
07-05-2009, 01:19
Dark Eldar. We have enough Meqs as it is, let alone loyalist ones.

EducatedOgre
07-05-2009, 01:25
Assuming the rumours we've heard about the re-sculpting of the entire Dark Eldar are true, then to be honest I'd rather the Space Wolves book came out first. Gives GW breathing room in the codex cycle to get the new Dark Eldar sculpts down pat before releasing the army. (and God knows that Dark Eldar need a good whack with the awesome model stick)

Maybe they could even sort out the fluff as well while they're at it. "The Torturer's Tale" is still the definitive piece of Dark Eldar fluff, and that never made it into the original (not revised) Codex.

Ouroboros
07-05-2009, 03:14
If they could jam all the much more divergent chaos legions into one book I don't see why they can't do the same thing with marines.

Dark Eldar haven't had a book in so long a lot of their rules don't even work properly anymore.

Space Wolf players out there waiting right now can always just run their army using the new basic marine dex, this isn't really an option for DE players. Your choices are to live with the obsolete one or just shelf the army until the book finally comes out the day after Duke Nukem Forever.

Ubermensch Commander
07-05-2009, 03:23
DE are a lot more like Eldar than SW are like SM.

Not true. Space Wolves at least share some common equipment and vehicles. Hence why the thing says "reference Codex Space Marines" in a few entries.(at least if my memory is holding up.)

Dark Eldar do not even do that with the Eldar codex. I think they only share power weapons, haywire grenades, and CC weapons. Oh! and the Bright Lance/Dark Lance now that the Bright Lance got bumped to heavy 1.
I can remember when the blasted thing was Assault 1...sure it didnt matter cuz anyone could have it could fire it anyway...but still...so much jealously that my pirate raider force couldn't shoot my Dark Lances on the go. Lance envy is a sad thing.:p

Grimtuff
07-05-2009, 04:11
If they could jam all the much more divergent chaos legions into one book I don't see why they can't do the same thing with marines.


You're saying that like they did it well.

Oh, wait.... ;)

CraftworldsRus
07-05-2009, 05:11
Well, I don't know about the Space Wolves, but my DE are sure still competitive, I just brutalized an experienced player using the new IG book today. It was so bad, I was apologizing for ten minutes after the game.

PhalanxLord
07-05-2009, 05:49
If they could jam all the much more divergent chaos legions into one book I don't see why they can't do the same thing with marines.

Dark Eldar haven't had a book in so long a lot of their rules don't even work properly anymore.

Space Wolf players out there waiting right now can always just run their army using the new basic marine dex, this isn't really an option for DE players. Your choices are to live with the obsolete one or just shelf the army until the book finally comes out the day after Duke Nukem Forever.

Ah yes, because GW would surely add the standard choices from those divergent codexes as troop choices, such as bloodclaws, ravenwing squads, deathwing terminators, and death company, and tactical marines shall gain ultra grit. But wait a moment... Normal units with ultra grit, a powerful CC unit, a hard to kill unit with FNP.... This is starting to look like the chaos book. In other words, essentially what you want to do is turn the marine book into a loyalist version of the chaos book (and that makes no sense at all). Chaos legions work together rather regularily-> you'll certainly find noise marines and khorne berzerkers fighting together more often than you would dark angels and space wolves. But you see to want them all in the same boat.

Lulz. Admit it-> the loyalist chapters diverge a lot more between eachother than the different chaos factions. SW is completely different from BT who is completely different from SM/DA/BA. Why not just go the extra step of combining the loyalist book with the CSM book now?

I'd sooner use my wolves count as CSM than SM. Grey hunters have a lot more in common with CSM squads than tac marines, as do blood claws with khorne berzerkers than assault squads (though with a big difference in weapon skill).

By the way, lets use necron using the new SM book, too. I'll even write a list for you (again), and it sure as hell fits better than SM and SW. You only have to ignore the parts that really make your army unique and fun (much like you're telling SW players to do).

SM Commander-> Necron Lord
Tac Squad-> Necron Warriors
Destroyers-> Land Speeders
Flayers-> Vanguard marines
Wraiths-> Assault Marines
Immortals-> Sternguard
Pariahs-> Terminators
Monolith-> Land Raider
Tomb Spider-> Dreadnaught

Necron Lords are combatty, well so are SM commanders. You can use Tigirus instead if you want to use his force shield thing to emulate WBB. Destroyers and land speeder both fire a lot of shots, and land speeder with multimeltas can be the new heavy destroyers. Immortals are shooty, sternguard are shooty. Pariahs are combatty, terminators are combatty. Monolith is 14 all around and "transports", the LR is 14 all around and transports. Tomb spider is a big thing that tears other things apart and has a gun? So is a dreadnaught. Flyers like CC? Vanguard like CC. Wraiths are fast CC? So are assault marines, or you could use bikes if you'd rather.


Not true. Space Wolves at least share some common equipment and vehicles. Hence why the thing says "reference Codex Space Marines" in a few entries.(at least if my memory is holding up.)

Dark Eldar do not even do that with the Eldar codex. I think they only share power weapons, haywire grenades, and CC weapons. Oh! and the Bright Lance/Dark Lance now that the Bright Lance got bumped to heavy 1.
I can remember when the blasted thing was Assault 1...sure it didnt matter cuz anyone could have it could fire it anyway...but still...so much jealously that my pirate raider force couldn't shoot my Dark Lances on the go. Lance envy is a sad thing.:p

I'll admit I was a bit overzelous with that, but you could do wytches = banshees, incubi= striking scorpians, farseer=homunculous, talos=wraithlord, use wave serpants as raiders and say they have a powerful force field, warriors as guardians, autarch as archon, etc. Sounds like blasphemy? Its roughly the same thing as using grey hunters as tac marines and wolf guard as sternguard or terminators.

The only real simularities between SW and SM are the tanks right now. As far as infantry goes, SW has more in common with CSM than SM. Grey hunters are more like standard CSM than tac marines. Wolf guard share a lot more simularities with chaos chosen than loyalist vetrans and terminators. Blood Claws seem to fit in more with khorne berzerkers than assault marines. Wulfen could be possessed marines. Fenresian wolves? Summoned daemons.

Look, I understand about DE (and I'm not aiming this at you specifically). I may not own their book, but I've read it and I've heard plenty of people complain about it constantly since before 4th came out, but thats no reason to act like all SM are the same, or even anything alike. Sure Red, Blue, and Green are all minor variences on the same template, but their brothers Grey and Black are more like Spikey, the brother people pretend they aren't related to. Using an army thats heavy on CC using the rules of a mostly shooty force doesn't really work. Here's some points:

Do they use heavy weapons in their standard squads?
SM: Yes
BA: Yes
DA: Yes
Chaos: Yes
SW: No
BT: No

Do they have scout squads as their new recruits with heavy weapons, sniper rifles, and the like?
SM: Yes
BA: Yes
DA: Yes
Chaos: NA
SW: No
BT: No

Do their standard units prefer to fight in CC?
SM: No
BA: No
DA: No
Chaos: Sure
SW: Yes
BT: Yes

Are their vets very customizable?
SM: Semi
BA: Semi
DA: Semi
Chaos: Yes
SW: Yes
BT: Semi

Do they have assault specialist troop choices?:
SM: No
BA: Yes
DA: No
Chaos: Yes
SW: Yes
BT: Yes

Do they have Apothecaries?:
SM: Yes
BA: No
DA: Yes
Chaos: No
SW: No
BT: I think so

Hmm... Chaos agreed once with SM, SW agreed 0, BT agreed twice, and DA and BA agreed a fair bit of the time with SM. While it is a biased list, there are a fair few bits in there that are highly relavent.

Once again, the only real simularitie between SW and SM are the tanks and that they all wear power armour. After that, the simularities end. They differ massively on playstyle and unit composition.

Edit: What did CSM lose in the new book? They lost their free champions, a bunch of upgrades, and the ability to move around a couple of FOC slots. Thats about it. Except for Alphamarines, they didn't lose any units and you can essentially make a marked army with the new CSM book because it has their respective core units as troops. The SM book lacks that. If they had removed khorne berzerkers, plague marines, etc from the CSM book and then asked you to use it to represent all the different legions, then the chaos players would be in the same boat you're trying to put SW players in. Now to reiterate, if the new SM book had DW terminators, BA assault marines, BT troop units, Ravenwing units, and ultragrit tac squads (who can be given rending and FNP) along with scouts (who can be upgraded to vetran scouts with better stats or given power armour and furious charge or can be combined with a tac squad as a single troop choice) as possible troops, Chaos players would be more than welcome to say "there should only be one marine book". However, that didn't happen, and if it had everyone would be whining about the utter brokeness of it. But thats what it would take to represent all the chapters in one book, and thats not even touching elites and fast attack and the like. Honestly, who would be happy with an SM book where you can have deathwing terminators marching alongside bloodclaws and death company as troops, before even getting into elites or fast attack?

Ubermensch Commander
07-05-2009, 06:03
@PhalanxLord
I was simply refuting the statement that DE are closer to Eldar than SW are the marines. As for the "how well can one represent SW with the SM Codex" you bring up some interesting points, not all I agree with.
Too tired right now to go into detail, so let me summarize it this way: One can (in)adequately represent SW with either the Chaos or the Loyalist codex through judicial use of counts as. I am not advocating it, nor am i suggesting GW merge SW into the SM book. But if we are going to count Daemons as Fenrisian wolves and the like, one could start making Combat Squad split Devastator unit representative of the Long Fangs split fire ability or a Ven Dread or Iron Clad representative of a SW Ven Dread. (Side note: In the next SW codex they should really make those just Ven Dreads ala SM codex with Bjorn as a Special Super Ven Dread.) It really depends on what a players feels makes a better approximation.
I don't know if one codex or the other can represent the SW accurately or with an edge over the other. Each loses a bit/lot in the translation.

Griffin
07-05-2009, 06:04
Dark Eldar - it's so old, and the models are *****.

Ubermensch Commander
07-05-2009, 06:06
Dark Eldar - it's so old, and the models are *****.

:cries: That was just hurtful....you don't have to say it like it is!

:p
Seriously though, a new (PLASTIC) Talos without that stupid dentist drill for an arm.....yes please!

the1stpip
07-05-2009, 06:19
Both armies need an update.

For the record, both Dark Eldar army wide rules are now obsolete.

Each model killed in combat gives the Dark Eldar player a victory point (no longer used)

And in any scenario where there is an attacker and a defender, Dark Eldar are always the attacker (obsolete for a few months at least until Planetstrike is released).

wolf40k
07-05-2009, 06:47
I'm a SW player so I think that DE should be updated first so that I can continue to abuse the current SW rules to my advantage. :angel:

Seriously though, DE only have 2 plastic kits, Warriors, and the Raider, ware as my 1000pt SW list only has 1 metal model, the Wolf Lord.

The DE also need to have their "Spiky 80's Glam Metal" look revamped, I've seen some of the new models, and there is a cool picture of one of them in the Dark Elder entry of the new rule book.

And one last rant, :mad: Dark Elder are the original Eldar of the 40k universe. It was just in 1st and 2nd Edition they were called Eldar pirates

holmcross
07-05-2009, 06:59
SW are next. This thread serves no other purpose then to rub salt in a very, very old wound.

squeekenator
07-05-2009, 09:27
Dark Eldar, because they aren't just yet another offshoot of Marines. The Space Wolves are decent enough, but they're an army that can fairly easily be represented by an existing codex. Also, we have too many Space Marine codexes as it is. Give xenos a chance.

blameless
07-05-2009, 10:17
SW are next. This threads serves no other purpose then to rub salt in a very, very old wound.

I second this hopeless thread...

they are both getting updated anywho so everyone chill and someone close this pointlessness :cries:

The Emperor
07-05-2009, 10:52
Okay, then I vote "Neither".

Saying "Neither" on a question asking which people would prefer first, Dark Eldar or Space Wolves is far from a logical answer.


Nothing against polls in general, only against pointless polls badly executed.

Now you're just trolling. For a pointless poll, it's brought up comments which I'm finding to be interesting reading. I was curious about what peoples thoughts on the subject were, and everyone's been pretty polite and amicable in their discussion of their reasoning why they feel the way they do. That's certainly proven to be better than your stirring up the pot. So how about either adding something to the discussion, or simply ignoring this thread, instead of poo pooing it?

archont
07-05-2009, 11:32
I voted Space Wolves, although I play Darkeldar.


The reason is simple: I am more or less content with the DE Codex, new Miniatures would be nice though. Rules-wise, the Wolves are in dire need of an update.

Plus: We've been waiting long enough. Let the puppys have their fun, those who still stick to DE can continue playing them without being molested about riding the creephorse when the new dex comes out and everyone plus his grandma starts Darkeldar^^ :)

nargileh
07-05-2009, 12:27
Dark Eldar: easily. This isn't even a context.

Space Wolves are marines that happen to be painted Grey.

Here's your space wolves codex:
Rules,
Consult codex: Space Marines
Painscheme:
Use fortress grey

There, no need to thank me =D

Poseidal
07-05-2009, 12:51
And one last rant, :mad: Dark Elder are the original Eldar of the 40k universe. It was just in 1st and 2nd Edition they were called Eldar pirates
Not quite true...

Eldar Pirates were still different. Yriel is now a Craftworld character, but he was one of the few named 1st Edition Eldar Pirate lords.

Both are piratical, and Dark Eldar do share the old statline but the little background produced is quite different.

Also, Eldar Pirates (the original ones) are a separate faction in BFG and the main Eldar fleet. Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar have their own, distinct fleets.

ex-green
07-05-2009, 12:56
Lets get the Dark Eldar updated, they have been around so long now with only the 2nd edition update its about time.

AbyssRaven
07-05-2009, 13:00
I'm a wolf at heart

And i think Dark Eldar need it the most.
I like the idea behind them, space Masochists with Pointy Ears.
But they need more fluff and better models and rules that haven't been around since my age was only a single digit!

Souleater
07-05-2009, 13:34
Dark Eldar aren't space masochists.

They're space sadists.

Ignorant Mon-Keigh Boi! :D

the1stpip
07-05-2009, 13:35
There were actually three kits, you forgot the Reaver Jetbike.

massey
07-05-2009, 16:27
Space Wolves need it, but not for the reasons you think.

Space Wolves aren't just competitive, they're *awesome*. People who say "they should just crack open Codex: Marines" don't get it. Space Wolves would be getting a nerf if they were to use C:SM. Space Wolves need a codex to unify their rules and prevent confusion. As it is, they are easily the most powerful marine list. Easily. They've got a hodgepodge of rules from 3 editions, and they use the best one available. Due to the way the SW codex interacts with the Marine codex, as well as the way the different FAQs have been written over the years, the Wolves are absolutely badass.

They need to be brought into line with the current balance scheme. Dark Eldar need an update as well, and badly, but there have always been fewer DE players than any marine variant. In the interest of making changes which affect the most players, SW should get it first.

MDMK
07-05-2009, 16:32
I think space wolves. They are so radicaly different to the new marine dex now that things dont add up. For example the cost of assault cannons and storm shelds.

Dark eldar are pretty nasty and so argueably are wolves. However I think space wolves need to be brought in line with the new marines.

However I would like to see what they do with dark eldar. If they make them as nasty as guard and orks then great.

PhalanxLord
07-05-2009, 16:40
@Ubermensch Commander
That last part wasn't really directed too much at you. It was more of an angry outburst I had while being tired. And I realise how stupid of an idea counting daemons as fenrisian wolves is. The main problem I have with using SW count as SM is the troop choices-> they're nothing a like. Everything else can be represented fine (sorta), except you always have to have troops and normal SM troops don't work for SW. SW troops are more like CSM troops. Thats why I say an SW army would more accurately be represented by CSM than SM, because its the troops that are the most important units right now. I agree that SW would lose a lot in the translation for either of them, but at least with CSM its still more combatty like it should be.

A major annoyance of mine is that people complain a lot about how they have to use the chaos dex for all the legions and say so should loyalists, but they don't seem to realise that at least they still have all the options needed to represent their legions (minus cultists and IW's siege options). Dark Apostle? Give a lord a power weapon and an inv save and you're done. World Eaters? Use khorne berzerkers as troops and give everything the mark of khorne. You can create a legion army using the book. You can't, however, represent a BT or SW army with the current SM book with even close to the amount of accuracy you can represent a legion with using the CSM book. Sure its possible to make an SM book that can represent all the chapters and divergent chapters (if you take a termy commander, you can have termy troops, if your command purchases "Black Rage" then you can take death company as long as you take a chaplain, if your commander purchases "Mark of the Wolfen" then your squads gain counter attack, a CCW, and cost +XX points and tac squads use the CCweapons list instead of the Tactical weapons list, Emperor's champion is a standard choice, if you take "vows" then you can take a scout squad and a tactical squad as a single squad and they only take up one FoC slot and must use the CCWeapons list instead of the Tactical Weapons list, etc) and it would be representitive of all the loyalist chapters, but now vanilla marines can take things like the Emperor's champion and "Deathwing" squads, and once again it would be vastly different than the current book (but it would probably be an awesome codex to use). However, the current SM book is nothing like what would be needed for that kind of thing, unlike the current CSM book.



Dark Eldar, because they aren't just yet another offshoot of Marines. The Space Wolves are decent enough, but they're an army that can fairly easily be represented by an existing codex. Also, we have too many Space Marine codexes as it is. Give xenos a chance.

Really? I've love to hear how you would do that without utterly raeping SW's playstyle. I see a lot of people bringing that claim to the table, but I haven't seen how they would implement it in a way that retains the way SW are played.

Grimtuff
07-05-2009, 17:19
Here's your space wolves codex:
Rules,
Consult codex: Space Marines
Painscheme:
Use fortress grey

There, no need to thank me =D

:rolleyes:
Once again.....

HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE THREAD FFS? SPACE WOLVES HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON WITH CODEX SM BEYOND WEARING POWER ARMOUR AND USING THE SAME VEHICLES. SAYING WHAT YOU HAVE SAID SHOWs SO MANY LEVELS OF IGNORANCE, NOT ONLY TO AN ONLINE CONVERSATION BUT TO 40K PLAYERS EVERYWHERE!

You come in here and try to make a "witty" comment with nothing to back it up. You really must be deluding yourself if you think SW players (or anyone who has even an ounce of background knowledge about SW) will just say, "yeah lets use the SM codex." Yes, it is possible, but it sucks all of the flavour out of the army. Counts-as can only go so far.

Sheesh, this is why I would love to invent a machine where you can punch people on the Internet. At least then it can get drilled into them to actually get facts straight before posting things like this. :rolleyes:

Rant over.

Brotheroracle
07-05-2009, 18:45
I'd be happy to see Dark Eldar disappear altogether ( don't hurt me!) - the whole 'spiky Eldar' thing just doesn't work for me.

On the other hand, I'd quite like to see Exodites...:evilgrin:

You hate the "spiky eldar" thing but you like the Exodites? I mean if Dark Eldar are Dark Elves then the Exodites are just ******** Wood Elves. I'm tired of people hating something because its the evil (or spiky) version of another thing. Due to the nature of the fluff and the mindset of games workshop that there will almost always be good and bad sides of the majority of the races good and bad space marines, good and bad imperial guard, good and bad Inquisitors and last but not least good and bad elves, I mean Eldar. There will always be a few races that will be only good, bad, or neutral (orks undead and the such) But to think that the Elves, um..er.. Eldar will be one of them is crazy.

In the gaming world there will always be support for Dark Elves and for GW not to make an army based on that concept is lost sales period. Ideally for GW once your lured in by a particular army concept you will invest in a second one, I mean who hasn't started a second army?

P.S No hate towards you LoveJoy you just were the straw that broke this camel's back

Tymell
07-05-2009, 18:48
Dark Eldar. This really isn't something that needs asking :p At all.

Sure, puppies need one pretty bad too. But their codex is more recent, and they've at least got the vanilla marine updates to be going on with, plus a much more respectable model range.


SW are next. This thread serves no other purpose then to rub salt in a very, very old wound.

The original post, and indeed thread title, is not "Who is next?" but rather "Who deserves it next?"

JustTony
07-05-2009, 19:02
Both need it badly, and both need to retain their original "flavor" and not just be "Bad Black painted Eldar" or "Grey painted SM".

The Wolves can at least use the current SM vehicle kits which you can buy in an LGS or GW store. They can also get by with the generic Marine kits, at least for basic troopers. However IF you want DE the only choices you have to actually buy models are eBay or GW mail order. Of course this prevents the "impulse buy" at the local store. Of course GW doesn't sell very many DE kits as a result. Imagine that.

That's why I would give the choice to the Dark Eldar over the Space Puppies. Nevertheless, they BOTH desparately need updating and the DE really need some cool new models (but leave the Raider alone, it's a stone ****** to transport, but an awesome cool model) while the Space Wolves could likely get by with a box of plastic troops with the right weapon options and maybe an upgrade sprue for the dreads and vehicles.

Being Marines, the Space Wolves will likely sell better, unless the DE models are truly mindblowing. Come GW you can do it!

Oh, and then please give me a codex that does justice to my flippin' Grey Knights, will ya?

Peace: through competetive, (not overpowered , cough ORKS, cough) updated codexes.

bloodraven1000
07-05-2009, 19:07
dark eldar first because they have the worst codex in existence with most of its rules being redundant, it has hardly any fluff an there is hardly anywhere else to find any an to top it all off the models are awful

p.s the space wolves shouldn't be done because there is more than enough space marine armies in the system. (99% of games ive played have been against space marines so i harbor a deep loathing of them)

Sirroelivan
07-05-2009, 20:59
Why does everyone think dark eldar models are hideous? I think most of them are still fairly decent with a good paint job and can look very nice with some conversion work.

Corpse
07-05-2009, 21:26
On the reverse note. Space Wolves are ok and bearable in terms of attempting powerful lists. They are alright in my book for updates.

I voted Dark Eldar, not because they need an update to be good. They need an update to re-assess their most powerful lists are reviewed by the GW rules designers.

I mean, seriously 17 "Plasma Cannons" most of which can be fired at different targets, and have a different firing mode to count as defensive weaponry. Terrorfexes are ok, but need rethinking.

They need new models. The old ones, some box sets come to you with inferior plastic resin (the faulty stuff they used to use). They are a non power armored army (aside from incubi and talos 3+'s) that have a signature feel of being the light and hard wing-hammer of 40k.

Dark Eldar followed by Space Wolves, then necrons and tyranid. Dark eldar can be overpowered, space wolves have a hard time with it, while necrons do well if done right, while tyranids have lots to gripe about with gaunts and ugly-aggrivating bopmorphs that require playtesting to figure out.

the1stpip
07-05-2009, 21:28
dark eldar first because they have the worst codex in existence with most of its rules being redundant, it has hardly any fluff an there is hardly anywhere else to find any an to top it all off the models are awful

I hope when you say they are the worst, you aren't talking about they can't win. Cos if so, I would love to play you with mine.

If I'm honest, I would love and hate a new Dark Eldar codex in equal quantities. I love my army, I love my tooled up Archon and my cheap Warriors and Raiders. A new codex could change all of that, but at the same time, I would love new toys.

And I do think Space Puppies deserve a new codex, as they are a true non codex chapter, like Black Templars. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels could easily be representd by special characters in the Marine Codex.

I'm sorry if any of this has already been said, but I am sick of these posts every week, 'drop Dark Eldar', 'drop Marine mini codexes', I would not want to wish this on anyone.

chivalrous
07-05-2009, 22:03
Bah, we're talking about the two armies I collected... I'd like to see a new Dark Eldar codex and cross my fingers for new models and a developed background.
For Space wolves, I'd like to see what they'd do with the new models but after the new Wolf Guard models they did a while back, I'm not enthused.

That said, I haven't played a post 2nd edition game in about 7 years, and it was only the appearance of Dark Eldar that kept me involved in the game after the sanitisation to third edition and beyond.

Ubermensch Commander
07-05-2009, 22:46
@Ubermensch Commander
That last part wasn't really directed too much at you. It was more of an angry outburst I had while being tired. And I realise how stupid of an idea counting daemons as fenrisian wolves is. The main problem I have with using SW count as SM is the troop choices-> they're nothing a like. Everything else can be represented fine (sorta), except you always have to have troops and normal SM troops don't work for SW. SW troops are more like CSM troops. Thats why I say an SW army would more accurately be represented by CSM than SM, because its the troops that are the most important units right now. I agree that SW would lose a lot in the translation for either of them, but at least with CSM its still more combatty like it should be.


I understand it was a general audience rant, but i figured I would reply to it at any rate since it seemed interesting.
As for the Counts As, its not stupid in this case. Stupid would be using Tyranid or Ork rules/models to represent SW or vice versa....mainly because they are so vastly dissimilar even in appearance AND rules. The exception being an army of Meganobz using Deathwing Rules. Initially I DESPISED this idea with a cold passion. Now, I can at least laugh at the concept.

Templar Ben
07-05-2009, 22:55
Hmmmm, an army that is brimming with players, and that is in desparate need of new background and models? Or, an "army" that is little more than an offshoot of another army. Easy, the Dark Eldar need an update first. The Space Vikings need to wait their turn.

The best response is this.


Space wolves.

They will sell better

That is the fact. Sure people will buy DE. DE may even have a payback under 3 years. SW will be like printing money and that is even more true if they follow the DA model of releasing models that all SM players will buy. DA had the plastic Devastator squad with the kneeling legs that flew off the shelves. SW gives them an option also to release a recut LR tank to cross sell with IG if they so wanted.


Space Wolves are certainly the safer option for GW.

Since GW is redoing the entire DE line, it means even the long time Dark Eldar players will be starting from zero.

Space Wolves will probably just have a few new kits and current SW players will buy those, but they won't be starting from scratch. Only new SW players will buy whole armies.

I think the potential for DE is much higher, but it's riskier and requires more initial investment (a lot of new molds and stuff). I think DE will sell better due to the entire range being redone, but I'm not sure if they will be more profitable due to the higher costs.

Why will they sell better? I know some people will pick up DE and let us presume that all current DE players will pick up a complete army. Do you really think that will be anything like having 1/10 of existing SM armies pick up the SW releases to bulk up their armies.


It's a moot point, pretty much every rumor points to SW being the next codex in line, with DE waiting till next year.

I personally hate the idea of a DE army, to me it always seemed like the game designers were sitting in a meeting trying to think of a new army till one guy said "Hey, we have elves in space, right? So why not have (drumroll please) DARK elves in space?" They were a half-assed army to begin with, poorly written with terrible models.

But they aren't getting squatted (and army hate or not, I would never wish that on a fellow player) and thus are a prime candidate for a new codex IMHO. They desperately need the new models at least.

To me it was more like they were high and watching Hellraiser. Seriously just watch that movie.


I'd be happy to see Dark Eldar disappear altogether ( don't hurt me!) - the whole 'spiky Eldar' thing just doesn't work for me. And they never sold well either. I've managed a couple of GW stores and SWs massively outsold DE. Remember, SWs were so popular that they were the first Chapter specific plastics.

Dark Eldar, despite being in the 3rd edition box set, never sold well. We ran a painting competition 3 times a year, and offered a special edition 100 DE army box as a prize, or 40 of any other army. After 3 years, the DE box was still in the storeroom.

So I reckon GW should stick with what sells, especially in this economic climate.

On the other hand, I'd quite like to see Exodites...:evilgrin:

Exodites would be nice

Dexter099
07-05-2009, 23:16
The Dark Eldar codex is still the most powerful codex out there, but there is really only one way to play them, portaling, which gets old after, say, the first 50 times.

Grubnar
08-05-2009, 01:58
I am a Space Wolves player, they are my second biggest army.

But I voted for the dark Panzees. Lets be honest here, they need ian update even more badly then their next fix of drugs!

BuFFo
08-05-2009, 05:24
The Dark Eldar codex is still the most powerful codex out there, but there is really only one way to play them, portaling, which gets old after, say, the first 50 times.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I have been portaling with them since the dawn of fourth, and after so many battles doing the same damn thing, I got put off of DE.

Its been a year since I pushed a DE model, and I still am scared at the raw power behind such a bland force.

DvlDog
08-05-2009, 05:29
Despite being a hardcore SW fan (I picked up an army that so beautifully represented an extension of my personality and playstyle I could believe it was fate if I believe in such foolish notions) I voted for DE. Several things influenced my decision.
-As much as would love having a new 'dex I am terrified that GW will screw up 'my' force!
-With a new 'dex the DE would be getting a new model line and all those goodies which I would love to see. I would love a new Ragnar but we have a decent model line, not as stocked as Dark Angels, sure, but still good. As much as I hate to admit it one could buy standard SM stuff and paint them grey.
-Although one previous person said that nobody plays either I can't see this at all with the Wolves. DE on the other hand have a much smaller following. Combine this with the lack of fluff and it gives GW a chance to almost reinvent them (don't kill me). Once they debut they will almost be a brand new force!

I think those are all valid points. I do, however, take offense to a poster on the first page saying that the Wolves needed it more because they are the most broken codex out. Unless I misunderstood you I take broken to be overpowered. If this is not what you meant then I cry your pardon. I have heard the "5 points for Storm Shields!?!?" more than once. Once as my bike squad Wolf Guard were destroyed in one round of combat by his Nobs costing half the points. This is a valid gripe in the case that you can give sergeants a 5pt. 3+ invul. On everything else it is completely invalid. Our termies do have more versitality than those Codex fools, but the cheapest way to equip a termie would be with a SS and a PW, thats 45 pts. with a PF? Thats 50. A LC and SS? thats 50. TH and SS? 50 or 55, I forget. What about bikes with SS? Always fun but not really cost effective. They are 50 each w/o another weapon, 50 with ccw and 60 with a PW. The cost is quite a bit, but I think but less than C:SM biker command squad by very little and with no FNP and no WS 5 champ. The WG on bikes MUST also be with the character they were bought for.
Forgive for digressing from the forum topic, but before you complain about 5 pt SS take it into context.

Souleater
08-05-2009, 10:32
I think it is a bit early to claim that SWs will automatically outsell Dark Eldar.

Unless somebody has seen both model ranges, and knows how they play in 5th it is very much a matter of opinion.

I would imagine the generic SM sales will go up when SWs come out because people will be able to mix in the SW kits. The old SW sprue is great (I have half a dozen in the loft that I’ve used bits out of for various modelling projects) so there should be a lot of potential there.

But I wonder just how many actual dedicated SW kits will be sold. When the SW kits first came out there were IIRC the first chapter specific kits that looked really different. Dark Angels, Blood Angels…really you could just paint your little men different colours. Space Wolves actually had stuff on their armour, and weird hair cuts! I think that played an important part in their popularity.

With the ‘standard’ Ultramarines being way more bling than the Angels, BT, etc SWs aren’t the only kid on the block with ‘cool stuff’ on their armour anymore. Heck, Ultramarines get more toys than anybody else at the moment.

How many SW kits will one need to actually make a SW army of good looking modern figures? Sure, things like long fangs should look grizzled and different but will we see a lot of Blood Claws and Grey Hunters that are generic SM models with a new paint job (or simply grey plastic? I may break my rulebook over the first twit’s head to come out with that one.)

In other words, assuming most players already have some SMs laying around (not uncommon) then they won’t have to buy so much new stuff whether they are existing or new Space Wolf players. A lot of people could simply buy the new codex.

I hope that SW stuff does fly off the shelves, however. My favourite opponent has been a Wolfy since 1st Ed. More Space Wolves means more Space Wolves to kill, and there is nothing I like doing more in 40K than killing Space Wolves.

Let’s look at the state of Dark Eldar…

The current figures are not the classics of the old SW models. They don’t fit with modern Eldar at all so there is little crossover without some hefty conversion work.

The new figures are rumoured to be the slow-cooked love child of Jes Goodwin. He’s been aching to do them. No more haphazard 80’s glamrockers. No more wildly varied styles and competence of sculpting. A cohesive, modern range of figures by GWs best sculptor.

And a codex where more than half of the units are worth taking. That’s one of the big problems with Dark Eldar sales…half the damn units are simply useless at their given role or so far eclipsed by Wyche and Warrior that it isnt’ funny.

Craftworld Eldar – done by or inspired by Jes ‘Hand of God’ Goodwin – have been one of the most popular armies in 40k for a very long time. Surely if the argument is going to be put forward that SW will sell well because SM sell well then the same could be applied to Eldar and their Dark Kin?

I’ve run into a lot more Dark Eldar players than Space Wolf players. And Space Wolves have two whole freaking editions over the Commorraghites. No doubt it varies but I think the two armies are probably about equal in terms of players.

When the new figures do hit the majority of players aren’t going to want to stick to the very old and poor figure range. It isn’t going to be like the Eldar or SM where even decade old figures can stand proudly alongside new models. Sure, there will be Dark Eldar players who stick with their old models but that percentage will be tiny.

That is what will push Dark Eldar sales above those of Space Wolves – people buying three, four times as many kits to build or replace entire armies.

Poseidal
08-05-2009, 10:57
I think it is a bit early to claim that SWs will automatically outsell Dark Eldar.


According to combined data of two Warseer (ha!) polls:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196807
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194907

And this is a very rough guess thanks to it being a poll and the differing options:

Space Marines (all): 44.86%
Dark Eldar: 10.90%

Of the Space Marines, we have the following breakdown of loyalists (taking the sum and excluding the non marine players)


Nilla 150 52.08333333 23.36458333
SW 35 12.15277778 5.451736111
BA 25 8.680555556 3.894097222
DA 52 18.05555556 8.099722222
BT 26 9.027777778 4.049861111
288 100 44.86

Therefore, from the last column, Vanilla Space Marines are easily still very popular, but on Warseer the Space Marine sub lists are each less popular than Dark Eldar on their own.

In fact, Blood Angels and Black Templars combined are less popular than Dark Eldar. Dark Eldar are more popular than the Angels and Black Templars despite the three having more recent codices.

Of course, there are disparities due to the way the polls are ruled, and the fact it's only on Warseer. Only GW has the real sale figures here, but there's something to think about here.

Bloodknight
08-05-2009, 11:18
Yeah, well, I have met more DE players than BT or DA players, too, but this is all anecdotal. Warseer polls are IMO distorted anyway, here the Guard players more or less outnumber SMs.

Poseidal
08-05-2009, 11:28
Yeah, well, I have met more DE players than BT or DA players, too, but this is all anecdotal. Warseer polls are IMO distorted anyway, here the Guard players more or less outnumber SMs.

For sure. I think outside of Warseer, you'll see more Space Marines (obviously), Orks (in the Starter set and also iconic), Eldar and Tyranid (Iconic and immediate choices for those who don't like the visual style of Orks and don't want Marines) players though Guard would still be high up.

Lord Damocles
08-05-2009, 11:37
Voted Dark Eldar deserve it more; but Space Wolves actually *need* it more.

Ubermensch Commander
08-05-2009, 15:19
Voted Dark Eldar deserve it more; but Space Wolves actually *need* it more.

Interesting. How are your defining "need" vs "deserve" and what is it that makes Space Wolves require it more?
The first thought that leaps to mind is due to the SW having a dex that originally references a codex that does not exist anymore, where as the DE have a cohesive, if ancient, codex.

EDIT: Side note in regards to the number of players of SW vs DE: Around my shop there is not a single SW player, never has been, except for a brief stint with the 13 co. by our resident PowerGarmer (He jumps from army to army if they are regarded as overpowered or cheesy list...first BA in the days o Rhino Rush, then Flesh Tearers, 13th co, and now Orks. this is not me casting aspirations on him, he admits what he does, but sees no problem with it. He likes "competitive" builds). On the other hand there were 2 DE players, now down to just myself. Simply putting that forth for those who assume Space Vikings definitely sell better than DE. Probably, I will admit, but without access to overall sales who can say? And the assumption of "DE just would not sell well" with a revamp is simply hilarious to me. If anyone can see into the future, please tell me the winning lotto numbers in California, or who will win the next "Big Game"(pick sports of your choice) so I can win some cash. Until we have some inkling of the models/rules/fluff of the new DE codex, it is odd to say that it wont sell.

psyduck86
08-05-2009, 15:29
While I think Dark Eldar need loving, I also feel that the Space Wolves should be nerfed hard.

No LR exterminator, 5pt Storm Shields or ridiculously tooled up Blood Claws.

the1stpip
08-05-2009, 15:47
In all my years of playing Dark Eldar, I have a pretty good win percentage.

And I have NEVER used a portal.

While I agree Dark Eldar don't have much in the way of different styles, they are not 2 dimensional in any way.

jsullivanlaw
08-05-2009, 18:35
Dark eldar and Necrons both deserve codexes before space wolves. I don't understand why every marine chapter needs it's own codex. There are tons of chaos traitor legions but none of them get their own codex. Marines should be able to use the MARINE CODEX that just came out.

PhalanxLord
08-05-2009, 19:23
@jsullivanlaw: I see you just skipped the last 5 pages where there are many posts explaning exactly why space wolves can't use the normal marine book and why most chaos legions can still work properly even with just their single current book.

It has to do with the fact that chaos gets cult troops and you can't make SW troop choices using the new SM dex. Lets see if you can figure it out from there.

Ouroboros
08-05-2009, 19:48
Ah yes, because GW would surely add the standard choices from those divergent codexes as troop choices, such as bloodclaws, ravenwing squads, deathwing terminators, and death company, and tactical marines shall gain ultra grit. But wait a moment... Normal units with ultra grit, a powerful CC unit, a hard to kill unit with FNP.... This is starting to look like the chaos book. In other words, essentially what you want to do is turn the marine book into a loyalist version of the chaos book (and that makes no sense at all). Chaos legions work together rather regularily-> you'll certainly find noise marines and khorne berzerkers fighting together more often than you would dark angels and space wolves. But you see to want them all in the same boat.

It's easy. You make a few blurbs and options in the entires of the main codex book that offer special upgrade rules for the various units in the main list to specifiy them to a chapter. So the blood angels page would have special upgrades to make them more blood angely and so forth.

They shouldn't fight together you say, well you don't have to do that if you don't want to. You can easily just use the blurb options associated with one chapter. Some people might want to make crusade armies though where they do squads from numerous chapters so who are you to tell them they shouldn't be able to transport their wolfguard terminators in a ravenwing landraider to gain some sort of marginal advantage in tournaments? What if one chapter squeeks past the goalie with a really over the top psychic power that none of the playtesters catch, isn't it only fair to allow everyone to abuse it equally? I'm sure that whoever's mixing chapters to gain advantage will have a great justification for it, or be completely clueless that there's even anything wrong with it because the codex won't tell them there is, so whats so wrong with that.

Anything that doesn't fit into this more "efficient" sterilized version of marines can ultimately just be dropped entirely or made usable only as a generic stand in for a gereric unit that spans all the chapters. Like Wolfguard and Deathwing could both be combined into "veteran terminators" that share the same rules except maybe for a mark of chao-- er "chapter trait" that you can buy to distinguish them. Oh and when their banner bearer dies the whole unit should probably lose any bonus the trait you bought confers to, because you know that guy was there to tell them how they were suppossed to behave through reading the wisdom off his banner. It's not like they were fundamentally altered or anything, it's all about that one guy. It's good enough for us chaos players so you'll probably enjoy it well enough to. We love our sterilized soulless codex like it was the obituary of the false emperor itself. Why do you marine guys always think each one of you deserves your own official codex, just because you were daddy's favorite?

atlantis
08-05-2009, 19:51
well my money is on Dark eldar (or necrons) as there have been 2 imperium codex's in a row, 3 doesnt seem likely

PhalanxLord
08-05-2009, 22:08
It's easy. You make a few blurbs and options in the entires of the main codex book that offer special upgrade rules for the various units in the main list to specifiy them to a chapter. So the blood angels page would have special upgrades to make them more blood angely and so forth.

They shouldn't fight together you say, well you don't have to do that if you don't want to. You can easily just use the blurb options associated with one chapter. Some people might want to make crusade armies though where they do squads from numerous chapters so who are you to tell them they shouldn't be able to transport their wolfguard terminators in a ravenwing landraider to gain some sort of marginal advantage in tournaments? What if one chapter squeeks past the goalie with a really over the top psychic power that none of the playtesters catch, isn't it only fair to allow everyone to abuse it equally? I'm sure that whoever's mixing chapters to gain advantage will have a great justification for it, or be completely clueless that there's even anything wrong with it because the codex won't tell them there is, so whats so wrong with that.

Anything that doesn't fit into this more "efficient" sterilized version of marines can ultimately just be dropped entirely or made usable only as a generic stand in for a gereric unit that spans all the chapters. Like Wolfguard and Deathwing could both be combined into "veteran terminators" that share the same rules except maybe for a mark of chao-- er "chapter trait" that you can buy to distinguish them. Oh and when their banner bearer dies the whole unit should probably lose any bonus the trait you bought confers to, because you know that guy was there to tell them how they were suppossed to behave through reading the wisdom off his banner. It's not like they were fundamentally altered or anything, it's all about that one guy. It's good enough for us chaos players so you'll probably enjoy it well enough to. We love our sterilized soulless codex like it was the obituary of the false emperor itself. Why do you marine guys always think each one of you deserves your own official codex, just because you were daddy's favorite?

I've already explained how it could be done using that method on a previous page(I had thought about it a bit more since that post) and I agree it would likely being a far better codex(ruleswise, not fluffwise) than the seperate marine ones. I'm not arguing against having an all in one codex because there are ways it can be done well. What I'm arguing against is people who are telling SW players to use the current SM book to represent Space Wolves. You can represent all the legions except for maybe Iron Warriors with the current Chaos Book (at least as far as troops go-> I mourn the loss of proper cult terminators and cult lord, and I don't even play Chaos-> did all the World Eaters terminators and commanders barring Kharn suddenly vanish into thin air or something?). With the current marine book, you can't do BT or SW very well because their core units are too different -> Tac squads are nothing like Grey Hunters except they all wear power armour.

TL;DR version: I don't care if they end up making an all in one loyalist dex, but the current loyalist dex can't represent SW or BT due to the vastly different troop choices-> therefore they currently need their own dexes.

Marshal Augustine
08-05-2009, 23:01
Dark eldar, for shnizzle.

The SW are tied to the new SM codex, and can benefit from it. DE are shafted with an old codex. Then again I am biased! Right Shawn :P?

Papa JJ
08-05-2009, 23:20
Dark Eldar just because we've had to look at the same miniatures for however many years it's been now. I remember opening up the old starter set that included 20 DE warriors and thinking back then they looked stupid. They need a dex sooner so that the current DE range can finally be laid to rest.

SharpSilver
08-05-2009, 23:22
Dark Elder first, by far. They haven't received a 'new' codex ever. They've only been given a revised version of the same 3rd edition codex.

The Space Wolves, as Marshal Aug said, can follow the recent Marine codex.

whitewolfmxc
09-05-2009, 00:00
Dark Eldar: easily. This isn't even a contest.

Space Wolves are marines that happen to be painted Grey.

shows how "much" you know the army lol

Coragus
09-05-2009, 00:16
Space Wolves. Hell, you can still walk into your local store and buy their stuff. Dark Eldar are as good as gone.

dblaz3r
09-05-2009, 03:36
Dark Eldar. Hell, you can still walk into your local store and buy their codex. Space Wolves are as good as gone. ;):p

Templar Ben
09-05-2009, 04:11
Dark Eldar. Hell, you can still walk into your local store and buy their codex. Space Wolves are as good as gone. ;):p

Stores there carry DE?

Corporal Chaos
09-05-2009, 10:09
The Dark Eldar really need an update now. The Wolves do need a new dex but let the xenos have a chance.

dblaz3r
09-05-2009, 10:13
Stores there carry DE?

Yes of course. Now, how long they have been carrying those same products is another question altogether. ;)

orkz222
09-05-2009, 10:45
DE need some love, they are stuck in 3rd ed lol.

Thanatos_elNyx
09-05-2009, 11:10
Space Wolves are fine

Dark Eldar need new models

Necrons need new rules

Lion El Jason
09-05-2009, 13:12
I think we should compromise and chose a space marine codex that has "Dark" in the title.

Seriously though out of those two, both armies play fine on the table, neither needs a new set of rules the way the more crippled lists do (DA, Daemonhunters). DE need a new codex (ie one with some background and stories and stuff) and DE need a new miniatures range.

So DE win on 2/3 criteria:
need a codex because they need new models desperately
need a codex because they need fluff
Not so bad for their rules, but I'm sure they could use twice as many troop types!

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-05-2009, 13:57
Space Wolves are just another defunct variant. The current Space Marine codex can represent them just fine.

If SW want a new codex, they should just open Codex Space Marines.

Space Wolf players out there waiting right now can always just run their army using the new basic marine dex

The Space Wolves are decent enough, but they're an army that can fairly easily be represented by an existing codex.

Here's your space wolves codex: Consult codex: Space Marines

Marines should be able to use the MARINE CODEX that just came out.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph doing an Irish jig. Some people need to reread their background. And it continues later in the thread:


the simple fact is that the SM Codex is flexible enough to represent them adequately until they finally get round to giving them a book.


the space wolves can just use the new SM codex


If you're upset with the old SW codex, but want to play SW, then paint your marines grey, and use the regular marine codex.

:rolleyes:

The_Outsider
09-05-2009, 13:59
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph doing an Irish jig. Some people need to reread their background.

To be fair, at least SW have fluff to read.

Hell the DE codex had fluff remvoed when they printed the update.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
09-05-2009, 14:32
Dark Eldar.

-their codex was released first, hence we've been waiting longer
-their range is crappier (I mean, the Space Wolves still have some really nice models, and they benefit a lot from the conversion opportunities presented by continuous new Space Marine models. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, still look horribly dated).
-their background is that much more vague than the Space Wolves (who had an ENTIRE WHITE DWARF ARTICLE devoted to their lengthy history and background)
-the Space Wolves can't claim that GW hasn't paid them any attention in the last 10 years. They, at least, got a supplementary list for Eye of Terror. That, and they recently got a Special Order model. Dark Eldar...have gotten NOTHING.

And finally...

-Space Wolves are SPACE MARINES. No matter how you cut it, Space Wolves are a supplementary army to GW's poster children. To have YET ANOTHER Marine supplement released before Dark Eldar would just be unfair. (Note that I'm not disparaging Space Wolf players on this).

So bottom line...give Dark Eldar a new codex already.

Tourniquet
09-05-2009, 14:42
To be fair, at least SW have fluff to read.

Hell the DE codex had fluff removed when they printed the update.

He was actually pointing out the fact that you CANT use Codex Sm to represent the wolves properly. Those people he quoted were saying SW are just another re coloured codex chapter.
Which is wrong.
SW don't follow the codex at all and of all the loyalists they are the most non standard chapter, which is why they require their own book (Even more so then other chapters who have them)

He wasnt saying SW lack Fluff

Dark Eldar -> Space Wolves - > Necrons should be the order in my eyes

victorpofa
09-05-2009, 21:07
Sure, puppies need one pretty bad too. But their codex is more recent, and they've at least got the vanilla marine updates to be going on with, plus a much more respectable model range.

The Space Wolf Mini-Codex was printed before the Second Edition of the Dark Eldar Mini Codex. Hence it is older. It is also referring to a book two editions dead, and you know GW will burn us if we take all the shiny toys the FAQ says we can. Rumor already has us not getting the Redeemer or Storm. I leave you to read the pages of reasoning earlier in the thread as to why SW can't be represented adequately by the Marine Codex.


Dark eldar and Necrons both deserve codexes before space wolves. I don't understand why every marine chapter needs it's own codex. There are tons of chaos traitor legions but none of them get their own codex. Marines should be able to use the MARINE CODEX that just came out.

The very first codex ever printed was the Space Wolf codex. They are the most deserving of any marine chapter by this fact alone. Plus they tend to use the copies of the Codex Astartes they are sent as toilet tissue.


well my money is on Dark eldar (or necrons) as there have been 2 imperium codex's in a row, 3 doesnt seem likely

Time to pay anyone who took that bet. Unless GW hits us with a curve ball the Space Wolves are coming before the year is out. Not DE (Getting new mini line from Jes), or Necrons (Which are said to be untouched as of a few months ago).


Dark Eldar.

-their codex was released first, hence we've been waiting longer
-their range is crappier (I mean, the Space Wolves still have some really nice models, and they benefit a lot from the conversion opportunities presented by continuous new Space Marine models. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, still look horribly dated).
-their background is that much more vague than the Space Wolves (who had an ENTIRE WHITE DWARF ARTICLE devoted to their lengthy history and background)
-the Space Wolves can't claim that GW hasn't paid them any attention in the last 10 years. They, at least, got a supplementary list for Eye of Terror. That, and they recently got a Special Order model. Dark Eldar...have gotten NOTHING.

And finally...

-Space Wolves are SPACE MARINES. No matter how you cut it, Space Wolves are a supplementary army to GW's poster children. To have YET ANOTHER Marine supplement released before Dark Eldar would just be unfair. (Note that I'm not disparaging Space Wolf players on this).

So bottom line...give Dark Eldar a new codex already.

Your first and last points can't be more wrong. See above for why. Also, get your tissues ready for September or thereabouts.



All three (plus a few others) deserve new rules as they are two editions behind, but just because Warseer hates Marines does not mean Space Wolves are less deserving. They had the first codex and currently have 2 books ever printed (The 13th company list counts 0.25 so I rounded down), and the Ultrasmurfs have had 4. Chaos has had 4. The Guard have had 4 (as of last weekend). Need I go on?

And for the record I want all three to be updated soon. I have 2000+ points of both Necrons and Space Wolves plus I am currently working on a Dark Eldar army using those much maligned minis. They are bad, but not that bad. Most of the problem is all that metal IMHO.

In summary enjoy the Space Wolf Revival (I sure will) and strap yourselves in for a fantastic relaunch of Dark Eldar some time in 2010 (I hope) and multiple xeno codices after that. By mid 2011 I bet Warseer will be clamoring for an Imperial codex because of all the damned xenos. :wtf::D

whitewolfmxc
10-05-2009, 00:00
Well said victorpofa XD

OhSoLame
10-05-2009, 00:52
Ultimately, it doesn't matter who deserves it more... Space Wolves will win.

Mchagen
10-05-2009, 01:11
If you did it by player base, during 3rd there were far more SW players than dark eldar, mostly because of the horrible models DE have and the good ruleset for the wolves. Now either army is rarely seen where I'm at. So they both really need the update--obviously.

Based on models needed and something more unique for the 40k mix, DE win. But as above, it doesn't matter--marines will be chosen first.

the1stpip
10-05-2009, 08:02
Since when do SW count as being the oldest, if the brand new SM Codex doesn't count, then noe does the 2nd ed print for Dark Eldar, that had a few rules changes and vehicle upgrades.

Thanatos_elNyx
10-05-2009, 10:14
While it is true that the fluff for SW is very different to regular Space Marines, the simple fact is that the SM Codex is flexible enough to represent them adequately until they finally get round to giving them a book.
For DE and Necrons players we have nothing!

dala_karn
10-05-2009, 11:08
i say Dark eldar as the space wolves can just use the new SM codex till they get their own while dark eldar are very different from eldar and can't do that.

but since space marines are everyones favs, it will most likely be Space wolves first.

EldarBishop
10-05-2009, 11:38
I voted that DE should get a new dex first... however, it will not happen that way.

Dark Eldar, Necrons, =][= armies could all use new codices...

Trying to use SW with the SM codex would be a lot like trying to field the "cult" lists using the CSM codex :p So, I understand the issue with the SW as well.

In the end, it will probably be the SW next, since - In the grim darkness of the future there are only Space Marines :D

PhalanxLord
10-05-2009, 17:35
While it is true that the fluff for SW is very different to regular Space Marines, the simple fact is that the SM Codex is flexible enough to represent them adequately until they finally get round to giving them a book.
For DE and Necrons players we have nothing!

Please tell us how you would represent SW with the SM book if you're so sure about it. That way we can tell you why your idea doesn't work.


i say Dark eldar as the space wolves can just use the new SM codex till they get their own while dark eldar are very different from eldar and can't do that.

but since space marines are everyones favs, it will most likely be Space wolves first.

Same to you. Seems a lot of people like ignoring why SW cannot be represented by SM. Maybe these people need to read the SW book some time so they'll get it.


I voted that DE should get a new dex first... however, it will not happen that way.

Dark Eldar, Necrons, =][= armies could all use new codices...

Trying to use SW with the SM codex would be a lot like trying to field the "cult" lists using the CSM codex :p So, I understand the issue with the SW as well.

In the end, it will probably be the SW next, since - In the grim darkness of the future there are only Space Marines :D

You'd actually be better off trying to field a cult list with the current CSM book. At least you'd get to use berzerker or plague marines or T-Sons or Noise Marines. In the end they're both on opposite sides of the same thing-> CSM only has troop choices that work with cult lists (DP, cult troops, and tanks pretty much), and SM has no troop choices that fit with SW (SM scouts and tac marines are nothing like SW scouts or grey hunters or blood claws).

As far as troop choices go, you'd actually be better of using CSM troops than SM ones for SW. Its sorta funny how that works.

Souleater
10-05-2009, 18:52
Please tell us how you would represent SW with the SM book if you're so sure about it. That way we can tell you why your idea doesn't work.

Well to be honest something like...

Blood Claws are Assault Marines without Jump Packs
Long Fangs are Devs in small squads.
Grey Hunters are Tacticals without a heavy weapon.

...is pretty darned close but it wouldn't satisfy many SW players who have come to expect their space marines to be better than everybody elses space marines; a 'chapter of heroes' to paraphrase one of the posters in this thread.

They are Space Marines. By definition they are a chapter of heroes. Unfortunately I think while the SW were originally meant to be a chapter of individuals...but ever since 2nd Edition...yeah, they've been heroes.

I don't expect to see that changing. Frankly I'd be surprised if SW armies aren't a little smaller and more elite than other chapters.

One key differece between Space Wolves and other Space Marines IMHO is that they are more specialised in their roles than most other chapters. The long fangs were shootier, the assault units harder hitting, the scouts...well you get the idea. I know some SW players have complained that their list is maybe less flexible but to ignore the clear advantages that SWs have in other areas is a little bit much.

I understand the desire for players to feel their codex fits their variant Marines. I understand the financial benefits to GW to keep selling more of their best selling products.

Again, let me make it very clear that I am more than happy to see Space Wolves getting re-done. I'd much rather the Pups get some love than 'upstarts' like the BTs or Blood Ravens.

As much as I've been annoyed and frustrated by Space Wolves I admit to having something of a soft spot for the old buggers. :)

Ishmael
10-05-2009, 19:54
Dark Eldar.

If you're upset with the old SW codex, but want to play SW, then paint your marines grey, and use the regular marine codex.

PhalanxLord
10-05-2009, 19:59
Well to be honest something like...

Blood Claws are Assault Marines without Jump Packs
Long Fangs are Devs in small squads.
Grey Hunters are Tacticals without a heavy weapon.


...is pretty darned close but it wouldn't satisfy many SW players who have come to expect their space marines to be better than everybody elses space marines; a 'chapter of heroes' to paraphrase one of the posters in this thread.

They are Space Marines. By definition they are a chapter of heroes. Unfortunately I think while the SW were originally meant to be a chapter of individuals...but ever since 2nd Edition...yeah, they've been heroes.

I don't expect to see that changing. Frankly I'd be surprised if SW armies aren't a little smaller and more elite than other chapters.

One key differece between Space Wolves and other Space Marines IMHO is that they are more specialised in their roles than most other chapters. The long fangs were shootier, the assault units harder hitting, the scouts...well you get the idea. I know some SW players have complained that their list is maybe less flexible but to ignore the clear advantages that SWs have in other areas is a little bit much.

I understand the desire for players to feel their codex fits their variant Marines. I understand the financial benefits to GW to keep selling more of their best selling products.

Again, let me make it very clear that I am more than happy to see Space Wolves getting re-done. I'd much rather the Pups get some love than 'upstarts' like the BTs or Blood Ravens.

As much as I've been annoyed and frustrated by Space Wolves I admit to having something of a soft spot for the old buggers. :)

The problem with tac marines as grey hunters would be the lack of CC punch that those tac marines would have-> all grey hunters have either CCW/BP or CCW/Bolter and true grit for an extra attack, and they can take CC special weapons. Thats makes up 90% of my problems with people using current SM to represent SW-> other units can be decently represented, but not grey hunters. It would be like removing the cult troops in CSM and forcing people to use icons to represent them using the current CSM book as an example. As much as people hate the lack of cult units now, that would be even worse and its much the same way as SW players see using standard marine units to represent their marines. Its not that SW are better than other marines just like how Khorne Berzerkers are different from chaos space marine units with an icon of khorne.

For me its not so much that SW are a chapter of heroes, its that they have great background and they have a lot of CC power without going assault squad heavy with DC like BA and they aren't the crazy zealots BT are. They don't have sticks up their asses like several other chapters *coughDAcough*.

rintinglen
10-05-2009, 22:47
All I can say is that in the last five years I have seen only three dark eldar armies at play here in the LA area. If there are in fact over 100 dark eldar players up in Oregon, they must have cornered the Market. At least in the LA Bunker Store Area, there are far more SW players than DE. Dark Eldar are by far the least played army. I firmly believe the SW need the Update most, and they will far outsell DE.

Thanatos_elNyx
11-05-2009, 15:30
Thats makes up 90% of my problems with people using current SM to represent SW-> other units can be decently represented, but not grey hunters.

Its a small grievance to be fair.

I am not suggesting for a second that SW don't deserve a Codex, I simply feel that they need it less than Necrons or Dark Eldar.
As I originally stated, the SM codex is merely an adequate substitute for them until they get time to do them properly.

Tourniquet
11-05-2009, 15:38
The problem with SW is that they aren't adequately represented by SM codex.
sure you can proxy some units. But for a competitive list it just will not happen. And you don't play SW to play Vanilla. Plain and simple.

SW need a Dex before Necrons. but Dark Eldar before SW.

But lets face it. SW are the next codex. DE are rumored after that.

PhalanxLord
11-05-2009, 16:06
Its a small grievance to be fair.

I am not suggesting for a second that SW don't deserve a Codex, I simply feel that they need it less than Necrons or Dark Eldar.
As I originally stated, the SM codex is merely an adequate substitute for them until they get time to do them properly.

Considering you require several units of troops, I don't quite think its a small grievance. Also, there's the point that if you like playing your SW without bolters then you'd be SoL-> you'd have no legal troop choices, and if you played BC heavy then you'd have maybe 1 or 2 scoring units. In comparison, Grey hunters also have twice the number of attacks that tac marines have (either true grit or bp/ccw) along with power fists or power weapons. What they can take are completely different. The only thing that makes them similar in the least is that they all wear power armour and have the same stats-> the similarities end there. I would hardly call it an adquate substitute. Besides, we aren't talking about a temporary substitue for the SW book-> the current one is still legal. What I'm against are people who are saying to throw out the current SW book and force all SW player to use vanilla marine rules from now on because in their ignorance they consider SW to be ultramarines painted grey and in their idiocy they refuse to think that that may not be the case.

Of course thinking about that now, fools like that probably won't even have bothered to read any of the dozen posts about why vanilla SM can't work with SW. You acknowledge that SW need their own book becaue SM can't represent them properly. I have no problems with you. Its other idiots that bug me enough to forget that this is teh interwbz and that even if I had the universes most compelling argument ever created most of the people who disagree will probably not change their mind. In real life I could show them the SW codex and outline every single reason why the SM book couldn't work. Have a bit of a fun debate about it. With the internet, my post would be forgotten within 5 or 6 posts and then people would still be posting "l0lz rolfcopter SW are jsut SM pantd greh", likely without ever knowing anything about SW other than that they are a chapter of space marines.

Ubermensch Commander
11-05-2009, 16:29
@PhalanxLord.
Calm down man. Calling everyone who thinks the SM codex works for SW (at least to a degree, few said it was a perfect fit, only that it works) a fool does not help your position.
Also, I believe you are mixing rules with fluff. Your complaint that troops might be missing true grit, or furious charge and is therefore unfluffy/inaccurate may not worry about some people. It is a set of rules added in the 3rd edition of 40K. The second edition codex had a different set of rules as well. And yes, SW are Space Marines painted Grey. Do they have their own character and background? Yes. Most assuredly. Yet, at the end of the day, many feel that Grey hunters are tac marines, Long fangs are Dev squads with pointy teeth (Sharp Pointy Teeth! But no one listens to Tim), etc.
Its not that they think "Rofl Copter Mareehnz" Its that they figure "Oh its not exact? Well considering its ruleset from one edition and is not the end all/be all of what makes a SW, then yeah...we can use the SM codex to represent SW."

So breathe, and then perhaps reiterate why you think SM codex does not work.

PhalanxLord
11-05-2009, 17:11
*starts breathing again* Ok, I admit I suffer from nerd rage. But it really does seem that most people who say that have never read the book. It would be equivilent to someone saying that DE should use Eldar rules because they're all space elves in the end without ever having to have bothered looking at the differences. Or someone saying that chaos should just use the marine book because they're all marines without ever acknowledging that their playstyles are nothing alike. Its people who have the resources to make an informed opinion but choose not to bother that bug me. My nerd rage about this is probably an extension of that.

Why I don't feel the SM book fits with SW:
- The troop choices. Look at the current rules for them. Grey hunters have true grit (so they always have 2 attacks min unless they take special weapons or power fists) and can take plasma pistols, power weapons, powerfists, and special weapons. Tactical marines can take special weapons and heavy weapons. Grey hunters are made for close combat. Tactical marines are made for shooting. Blood claws are even more focused for close combat than grey hunters. They also don't work as tactical marines. Background-wise, SW scouts are vets. Game wise they can be kitted out with enough close combat power to kill a tactical squad. Space marine scouts are a long range support unit with worse BS and WS than a normal marine. Therefore, I would argue that there are no troop choices in the vanilla marine book that can adequately represent SW units in their current iteration. Therefore, if an SW player would have to use the vanilla marine book, their playstyle would be impossible.

- Other than the whole troops choices thing, there's not much of a problem to be honest. Devs could make adequate long fangs, there's still ven dreads, marine vets and terminators are adequate for wolf guard, etc. The choices that don't fit with SW (thunderfire cannon, for example) you can just choose not to take. Its just that troops are mandetory and they don't work with the army-> it would be like taking the CSM book, making all cult choices elites, and then forcing a cult player to take standard CSM troop choices in his cult army and removing their close combat weapons and removing their ability to take icons/marks. And hypothetically speaking, lets say you play mono-khorne cult. Now you can't really use your terminators because they take the same slot as your berzerkers. You are forced to take at least 2 units of basic CSM without any marks of any kind. They don't fit into how the army is supposed to play or look, but you're forced to take them and you can't take other choices that would well in the background (khornate terminators) because the unit your army type (World Eaters) has always been based around is now in the same slot as them. You can no longer get the proper feel with your army that its supposed to have, if you want to try to retain that feel then you will probably auto-lose 2/3 missions because you would have to minimize troops, and you now lose out on units that you could take before because you want try to keep your former army. In fact, you may even be forced to get new models because you don't have any capable or representing the troop choices you are now forced to take.

TL;DR version: The army would play completely differently and it wouldn't feel like you're playing space wolves anymore and it would make a lot of your models useless. Ruleswise, they play nothing alike-> space marines are shooty, space wolves are close combat orientated.

Did I manage to get my message across without too much nerd rage this time?

aberrant_unc
11-05-2009, 17:24
This is a weird question, but I haven't looked at the SW codex for years.

Could you field them using the chaos codex and counts as everything? Bezerker stats would fit, the basic troopers including heavy weapons teams get 2 attacks due to bolter and bp/ccw, etc. Sure it isn't perfect, but until the SW get a new book it doesn't sound like an awful idea. The highly variable chaos chosen and terminators could also be used for various roles.... HQs might be tough, but again counts as can work miracles.

StarshipBOb
11-05-2009, 19:48
I voted for Dark Eldar. At this point in the game, I'd be more then happy with a combined dark eldar/craftworld eldar codex.

DvlDog
12-05-2009, 11:26
As for SW and C:SM playing nothing alike, I can agree with this. When I got back from Iraq I found that my beloved Wolves were....gone. A friend had them in a car and that was repo'd. After much mourning I decided to pick up the new C:SM. I knew they were different, I just didn't realize how different. It really was learning a new force. Even if I were to gear my C:SM towards assault it was still worlds away. Wasn't too long before I heard the call of Russ and bought more Wolves.
Now, happy day, I have a sizable SW force (clean slate that I've been making even better than my first force) and a sizable C:SM force who play nothing alike, even if I were to gear them both towards assault.