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jaxom
07-05-2009, 20:09
Playing with a giant last night and for the first time I rolled "Yell and Bawl" while in the midst of a combined charge. It was Chaos Giant, 5 Knights + Exaulted Champ and 5 Marauder Cav into a single unit of Chaos Warriors.

Neither of us had much experience with Giants but based on the last WoC FAQ I figured that the result of the whole combat was a win for me by 2 regardless of what went on away from the giant (the giant stopped 4 warriors, 2 marauders and 1 knight from attacking while the rest of the knights and marauders got 7 kills on the charge and left nothing to swing back). In the end he rolled at -2 (and failed) instead of being at -8. This is the correct test for him to make, yes?


And then an overrun question from the same fight (again showing inexperience)...

When I overrun, I move in a straight line. If I overrun 10" but there is a fight 4" in front of me and at an angle does it matter what is hit by the first corner to make contact? As I recall the rules, if there was no fight I would either impact the enemy as a new charge or impact my own unit and stop dead actually in base contact. In this particular case, moving straight forward would have put me in contact with my own warriors at about a 75 degree angle which would have left me less than 1" from the enemy unit as well. We went ahead and wheeled the knights into full contact with the enemy (marauders on foot) but the more I think about it the more I wonder if they should have stopped at their original angle and then backed up to an inch from the fight...

What do folks think? How would your groups resolve these situations?

ARVO
07-05-2009, 20:37
Interesting. In the first case I would say add the wounds to the combat res (for a grand total of -10 assuming you outumber him) but thats just me. I don't see why a screaming giant would IMPROVE the morale of a unit.

Your second case confuses me. How could you have the choice to charge or not? Maybe im visualizing it wrong. Add a picture maybe?

Nurgling Chieftain
07-05-2009, 20:40
Hehe, the Giant is loud enough to be heard throughout the combat and isn't much more pleasant for your own troops than for the enemy. :p So, yes, you did that correctly.

In the latter situation, you stop upon hitting your own troops, which means that moving directly forward does not contact an enemy unit, so no charge results from the overrun.

narrativium
07-05-2009, 20:52
First situation: yes. Your auto-win by 2 means you can't win by more than 2, as well as not being able to lose, so he made the right test.

Second: You move the unit straight along its pursuit line. If the first thing it would hit is enemy, it's charged into fresh enemy; if the first thing is friend, it's not in the combat and should be 1" away from the enemy. I think you should've backed up.

jaxom
07-05-2009, 21:29
To Arvo's request... I tried out some ascii art with no success and can't do a drawing before I have to leave...

I think that the confusion is my comment about there being no combat. What was intended there was to cite the rules for just an enemy or just a friend in the way. If there is nothing but enemy out there, it's a charge to be resolved next turn. If it's a friend, then you hit and stop.

Because there was a combat out there and my unit overran well into it the question dawned on me that I might have hit my own unit first. Since it was a unit of charging Warriors hitting a unit of shield-only marauders I was going to smash them anyway. We just threw the knights into the combat and called it good. I think the way things were lined up I really hit rear side of my own model from the front rank of my warriors first (so I hit my model and would have stopped less than 1" from the enemy). Not critical for the outcome yesterday but it does mean that I need to pay more attention when maximizing models and considering charges based on that.

Thanks for the prompt replies, guys.

knightime98
08-05-2009, 09:56
I always have my giant attack last... just for this reason. If I can hold it off based on chargers, initiative... and so on.

Atrahasis
08-05-2009, 10:13
Yell and Bawl only stops models in base contact with the Giant attacking. If the Giant goes first and Yells, anything not in base contact with him still gets to fight, they just don't affect CR.

Arnizipal
08-05-2009, 10:15
To Arvo's request... I tried out some ascii art with no success and can't do a drawing before I have to leave...
Try wrapping them with code tags. They don't filter out spaces.



XXXXX
XXX
X
[/ CODE]

without the space after the / ends up looking like

[CODE]
XXXXX
XXX
X


instead of

XXXXX
XXX
X

Urgat
08-05-2009, 10:50
Playing with a giant last night and for the first time I rolled "Yell and Bawl" while in the midst of a combined charge. It was Chaos Giant, 5 Knights + Exaulted Champ and 5 Marauder Cav into a single unit of Chaos Warriors.

Neither of us had much experience with Giants but based on the last WoC FAQ I figured that the result of the whole combat was a win for me by 2 regardless of what went on away from the giant (the giant stopped 4 warriors, 2 marauders and 1 knight from attacking while the rest of the knights and marauders got 7 kills on the charge and left nothing to swing back). In the end he rolled at -2 (and failed) instead of being at -8. This is the correct test for him to make, yes?
Yes, I actually got screwed over because of that, totally smashing an enemy unit with my savage boar riders, the guy basically needed snake eye to hold, and then, and then... the stupid giant shouted. Needless to say my opponent managed the break test, too... And I was thinking a combined charge from the boars and the giant was a good idea xD IIRC the unit held two turns more because of that, too :/

Chicago Slim
08-05-2009, 11:18
I think that the confusion is my comment about there being no combat. What was intended there was to cite the rules for just an enemy or just a friend in the way. If there is nothing but enemy out there, it's a charge to be resolved next turn. If it's a friend, then you hit and stop.


Right-- thing is, those last two sentences are all the rules you need: "Hit enemy = charge. Hit friend = stop." It doesn't matter if those enemy or friends are in combat, fleeing, picking their noses, or anything else.

A few caveats on that, though: If your overrun (or pursuit) takes you into enemy models, but in a way that makes it impossible for you to align against them (like, you've just clipped the edge, and there's other friends, enemy or terrain in the way of your alignment), then the situation is a bit murkier. I've seen it played where that becomes a "failed charge" on the overrun / pursuit, and your unit backs up to 1" shy of the enemy. I've also seen it played where that becomes a "clipping charge" with one model from each side in base-to-base contact. That's one to talk out with your opponent-- fortunately, it's a pretty rare occurrence.

sulla
08-05-2009, 13:56
Try wrapping them with code tags. They don't filter out spaces.



XXXXX
XXX
X
[/ CODE]

without the space after the / ends up looking like

[CODE]
XXXXX
XXX
X




Well I never... :D Thanks. You do learn something new every day...

jaxom
08-05-2009, 16:47
Ok, so, with the new-found "code" toy...



ooooo
ooooo
ooooo
x xxxxx
xxx xxxxx
xxx xxxxx
x

When the unit on angle advances on an overrun or pursuit it will just clip the first rank of friendly troops before it contacts the enemy. In our particular case the angle was steeper... About 75 degrees to the line of the combat... But it was still pretty evident that I was gonna hit my own guys before I hit the enemy marauders.

Nurgling Chieftain
08-05-2009, 17:45
As before... You hit your own troops, you stop. Because you stop, you don't hit the enemy. Because you don't hit the enemy, no charge occurs.

Arnizipal
08-05-2009, 18:04
Yup. End situation would look something like this:



ooooo
xxx ooooo
xxx ooooo
xxxxxxx
xxxxx
xxxxx

jaxom
08-05-2009, 18:15
As before... You hit your own troops, you stop. Because you stop, you don't hit the enemy. Because you don't hit the enemy, no charge occurs.

Oh yeah, I agree completely. Just wanted to get this in there for the benefit of Arvo and anyone else who was confused by my original post.