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punkrox
08-05-2009, 18:10
so i got thinking bout white dwarf and the lack of quality content and how it could be improved.

white dwarf of course is for advertising pupose so we'll never get rid of ad's so lets throw some idea's about.

1. with the death of the journal and sg mags white dwarf could use much more reader content ie house rules, conversions, etc

2. gw you have a mag put faq and earrta's in (much easier to update then the net, and some people dont have access to it)

3. interviews, well they may have some designers, painter etc but what about torney players, golden deamon winners hell even celebs we know that robin williams play's.
by doing this they could say have golden deamon winners talk painting tips or guide to how to paint x model or how people got into the hobby even personal collections even celeb vs gw member. (Mind you i would tred carfully with the celeb thing the last thing i'd like to see is a wd version of heat lol)

4. meeting clubs: where they play, interclub torneys etc

5. last but not least get mike walker writing for them as his articles were not only funny but informative.

these idea are off the top of my head and could help to bring back the vets back to the mag but im sure you guys will come up with better.


sorry to the admin if this has already been talked about about already.

this thread is for idea's so please no negtive remarks on the subject.

happy brainstorming,
punx

parus_ater
08-05-2009, 18:16
Persoanlly, I'd like to see some 'freelance' articles being submitted, gaming clubs and GW staff, that sort of thing. something to break the "this was written three months ago" feel which I think is at the route of the problem.

Maybe even reduce the head time they have to maybe 4-6 weeks before time, that way you could get more topical bits in and event advertising - that's basically why stores don't advertise their events and weekends in there, 12 weeks is a long time before anything for it to be confirmed.

punkrox
08-05-2009, 18:47
i'd agree with you on the free lance articles i think thats what mike walker was doing and they were great i missed them when they were taken out

if cutting down lead time would allow more topical bits and events, then i dont see why it wouldnt work it really should be a case of quality not quanty.

even cutting down from a4 format to a smaller format might work with shorter lead time. much like the times did with its newspaper.

parus_ater
08-05-2009, 18:56
The thing is, I can see where they're coming from with the three month thing. In order to get the format right and have the pictures ('Eavy Metal ones at that) you need a bit of a buffer. A lot of model magazines do that as well in order to get the photography of the production models right. What I think would be good would be X number of pages within that made format to be set aside for "less professional" content. I miss the letters page for example, I miss the articles about local GW's - you could even extend this to local indy stores - that helps towards shop loyalty.

Duke Georgal
08-05-2009, 20:36
The feature that would make me buy White Dwarf again would be a monthly tour of an awesome army.

Unit pics, close ups of the conversoins, army list, tactics, the whole tour.

Not "studio" armies, armies that belong to real players. Even a brief bio of the player to accompany the army article. Pictures of his painting desk.

That would be very good.

ToXin
08-05-2009, 20:39
How long have you been reading WD? I certainly don't mean to be rude and if you're relatively new then fair play for listing...

How it used to be!!!

If not, then there have already been discussions reminiscing on how things were better in ye olde days, but by all means discuss again and they might listen. Or not, as usual.

parus_ater
08-05-2009, 20:48
I've been reading White Dwarf and patronising the local GW for niegh on fifteen years, mate. The reason I went on to explain what I'd like to see back and what's missing is that I was stating how it isn't due to the three month thing, be it to do with model painting/battle report deadlines and the printed in poland and shipped over thing. My point was that with a little work they could perhaps bring the lead down and work within that timeframe to get external and fresh material.

ToXin
08-05-2009, 20:57
MY question was to the OP, I agree with the list as the contents page used to be like that! I'd also agree with your comments, however since i let my subscription lapse a couple of years ago and havn't picked up the magazine to read sincem I defer to your current knowledge.

From memory, the production to print lead time was always surprisingly long and occasionally this was obvious. How much so now I deduce from your comments is that it is more obviously 'stale'.

punkrox
08-05-2009, 20:57
Toxin no offence taken mate,

i started reading white dwarf in the early 90's and its what got me into the hobby not a store, but seing the mini's in a mag in a newsagent . as for recent issues i havent bought any as the last copy i flicked through was disapointing and the price and content for vets isnt what im looking for.

i know some of the things listed are how it used to be, but i was trying to start the ball rolling on how it can be more vet friendly and see if anyone has suggestions on new twists to old articles or new ideas.

it not a walk down memory lane on how it used to be its a bit of brainstorming
but if this is treading old ground then im sure i'll be dragged off to the penal legions for crimes against the imperium

Chaos and Evil
08-05-2009, 21:01
You really need to define what you want White Dwarf to be for before your 'brainstorming'.

Right now White Dwarf is a magazine for noobs...

punkrox
08-05-2009, 21:08
choas and evil : yes at the moment its a mag for newbies, but shouldnt it bridge the gap bewteen newbies and vets.

ToXin
08-05-2009, 21:09
Not old at all, just similar. (edit to say this is replying to Punkrox) I think your angle is different form what I've read before and I totally agree as to the lack of valuable content... a casualty of a more corporate driven company that has expanded too quickly resulting in unsustainability of returns.

As an aside, my first issue was 101 and lapsed about 3 yrs ago, so for those such as yourselves who have seen the editorial and layout styles change over the years I can only agree that there is a 'hole' that needs to be addressed but sadly isn't likely to be.

When I realised that I was reading less and less of the content for my 4 (ok, subscription deal made it less) I couldn't see the point any more... I used to read cover to cover, even for the systems I didn't particularly favour.

punkrox
08-05-2009, 21:18
toxin: that exactly what i mean there is a hole and it needs to be filled and like you said it prob wont be either, but sales must of been dropping off for some time which could be fixed by adding more content that you would read page for page and bring the vet back to the mag.

punkrox
08-05-2009, 21:19
Toxin out of intrest what you like to see done

Chaos and Evil
08-05-2009, 21:30
choas and evil : yes at the moment its a mag for newbies, but shouldnt it bridge the gap bewteen newbies and vets.
.....
Why?

ToXin
08-05-2009, 21:31
As I havn't read it for a couple of years, please bear that in mind...

What made the great issues for me were when creativity was encouraged, converting guides, templates, army lists (WD127) and freedom to discuss methods, techniques and products that didn't have a GW brand stuck over the original label...

Mike McVey's first appearance as an emerging GW artist(painter) had a page of photos of his models, oneof which had a tentacle arm made from 'milliput' - it took me ages to track down some of that stuff :D

Tony Cottrell's scratch built scout titans.... jumble sales for broken plastic toys and odd shaped yoghurt pots.

Take it off the marketeers and give it back to the community!

punkrox
08-05-2009, 21:53
choas and evil : dont the vets deserve as much they have bought into the products and magazine for years and shouldnt newbies deserve a place in the mag as well to encourage them to the hobby

it unfair to say it should be one or the other its everyones hobby nebies and vets alike

Chaos and Evil
08-05-2009, 21:59
Do you know what percentage of GW customers are newbies (Playing the game for less than a year) and what percentage are 'Veterans' (Playing the game for more than a year or two)?

GW do... and they quite rightly primarily target their most numerous customer.

punkrox
08-05-2009, 22:01
toxin i have to agree with you converting guides, terrian how to's and army lists all providing creativety and most of all fun and both are use to vet and newbies alike

i havent seen that mike mcvey article but the heresy diarama and the dark angel one were ace.

punkrox
08-05-2009, 22:14
no i dont know the percentage is and of course they'd target there most numerous customers but it should be aimed at everone not just geared towards newbies.

when i first started if you wanted something more vet geared you'd pick the journal up, but as you cant do this anymore it would make sense to cater for both group plus you'd most likely get more sales.

anyhow could we get back on topic and bounce some idea's about

Cherrystone
08-05-2009, 22:22
When i first started, issue 112, the magazine wasnt aimed at 'noobs' but was full of inspiration - rules, art, short stories, detailed scenery making etc and covered many different game systems (not just 3 - boring). This didnt turn me off at the age of 12 so why does the magazine need to be 'simplified' for todays generation!?!?!

punkrox
08-05-2009, 22:29
cherrystone couldnt agree more if we managed to not get turned off it as kids why should it be simplified for today's well said mate. it not a case of them and us it everybody

Ben
08-05-2009, 22:48
Is pretty much the reason. Attention spans and literacy are down, GW don't want to make WD too complex for little kiddies.

WD is specifically not aimed at the sort of person who's old enough to use the internet and reads things like warseer, it is more focused on the 10-14 age group. Vets are assumed to be a self supporting group tht will generate their own additional hobby value. Things like warseer are a good example of that.

Whether GW not giving Vets a little reach around now and then is a bad idea is a separate debate, but WD is aimed at children, and childrens reading age. While I started on WD 143 at the age of 10, children nowadays would rather spend their time happy slapping people and showing the videos to their pals as they warm themselves around an oil drum stuffed with burning grannies.

zak
08-05-2009, 22:54
I started reading WD back in 1989 when I was 14. It was fantastic. It had multiple sytstems covered rather than the main 3 and had actual content in it. This is the first month that I have not purchased a copy of WD. I looked through it and it melded in to the last 10 I had got and it had the same old dross.

- Where are the 'interesting articles' that gave insights in to the game rather than the current ones which are blatant buy this because it's new! articles.
- The Battle reports are no longer interesting, but are confusing and random. They used to be turn based and you could actually follow the battle rather than just, 'look the new thing just blew/killed that other thing. Buy it now' style they seem have adopted. The page is more picture than article. Don't get me wrong I like pictures, but they should be an aid to the report rather THAN the report.
- More input from gamers. I want to see other peoples armies. Why they collect, how they paint, how they use the army and who they play against. At present there is almost none of this.
- Short stories. These were a regular and added to the rich background to this game.
- Tactics pages written by someone who has played the game. Get a GT winner to explain their tactics and question their choices and motivations for the list. The current ones are general and written by people who it would appear have not played the game, but have heard about it.

The only good thing about White Dwarf at present is the detailed breakdown by the Heavy Metal team on how they painted certain mini's. This has improved my painting no end and is interesting to read even if I don't plan to paint something as it gives useful tips and hints on how to achieve a certain effect.

Unfortunately I just can't see WD turning it round.

darius-god-of-biscuits
09-05-2009, 06:41
The easiest regular article that they could introduce is a two page spread on a fan's army. Take pictures at a GT and a few words from the owner: paints used in colour scheme; basic fluff; where did the ideas come from; usual tactics used.

Tonberry
09-05-2009, 07:03
I want chapter approved back :(

snurl
09-05-2009, 07:21
I would like the serialized novels, minigames and cardstock buildings back please.

ToXin
09-05-2009, 07:30
Space Hulk Campaigns!!!

but that's a whole other issue. Or 3.

there used to be additional hobby / gaming content, for free, not a catalogue of what you could go and buy... it used to be value for money as "Games Workshop's monthly gaming supplement and Citadel Miniatures catalogue"

Lord of Worms
09-05-2009, 12:38
I want chapter approved back :(

I second that.

I would also suggest that inside of WD(or packaged in addition to) a "local" supplement be published written by local staffers or volunteers. Trade forums, game events, random articles...whatever. If they did it right this would be the best way to justify another price increase. :mad:

parus_ater
09-05-2009, 12:45
How about some card Space Hulk boards and rules included one issue?

Chaos and Evil
09-05-2009, 12:46
Chapter Approved is dead ; it's been replaced by 'Liber Apocalyptica' because Apcalypse is quite popular.

Lord of Worms
09-05-2009, 12:50
WD without chapter approved is worse than worthless IMHO:(

Chaos and Evil
09-05-2009, 13:07
I like about 50% of Jervis' articles (When he's expounding on the nature of the hobby and not trying direct sales of the latest product).

I've progressed beyond the need for the painting and hobby articles, and I don't enjoy the new style battle reports that began with issue 316 (The GIANT! issue).

But then, White Dwarf isn't for me, it's for newbies.

ToXin
09-05-2009, 13:42
How about some card Space Hulk boards and rules included one issue?

They used to do that as well :D

Times have certainly changed, and havn't they recently de-regionalised as well? With the vast spread of information across the Web and broadband widely utilised, I can't see why volunteers would want to contribute towards someone elses profits... in the past i've writen articles, editorials and tutorials for non-profit, free to use websites on a principle of 'giving' into a freely available community resource. There are plenty of those around, some good, some umm, not so good. (as in quality of content).

And didn't Chapter Approved die because Andy left for pastures new seeing how stale things got! ?

Lord of Worms
09-05-2009, 13:46
And didn't Chapter Approved die because Andy left for pastures new seeing how stale things got! ?

Maybe, but then Jervis can get off his ass, stop writing about how cool GW is, and start making it cool again.

ThruggBullneck
09-05-2009, 16:48
"Things were better when I were a lad..."

I haven't picked up a WD in years, so take this with a pinch of salt.

If WD is to escape its reputation as a glorified product catalogue*, I'm not sure returning to the ideas of the past is going to cut it.

The company has long since farmed the role-playing stuff (reliable page-fillers) out to other companies. Core games are supported through planned releases - WD used to be a beneficiary of a more ad-hoc approach to product releases. The mag isn't required to fill as many rules gaps. Black Library host samples for all their fiction. The supplementary games have largely disappeared. Gamers don't need as much cardboard as they used to!

Time was that WD was the focal point for the hobby, but this isn't the 1980s anymore. When was the last time WD was the first place you saw new product? As long-time gamers, how likely is it that you will read a painting article you haven't read before in a slightly different form? Fans don't need WD (or the Journal) as an outlet - they've got places like Warseer. Chapter Approved has competition - high-quality fan lists from the likes of belloflostsouls.net. It is difficult for the mag to compete with free stuff and your own experiences.

If WD is to get the masses to part with its cover price, it needs to become a source of innovation - consistently publishing articles with a "wow!" factor. Putting a new spin on things, being creative, but also providing something readers can put into practice. (If I could tell you exactly what those ideas would be, then they wouldn't be good enough to make this work!) Alas, that takes talented and dedicated people, who are probably committed to the company's core product lines.

My 2 cents, anyhow.

(*Some have been saying this since it dumped Critical Mass. Except for the folks who probably thought that the introduction of colour covers was needlessly dumbing down the mag...)

Wintermute
09-05-2009, 17:19
We already have a thread for General Feedback for White Dwarf which can be found here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23972) and, as a result I'm closing this thread.

Wintermute