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View Full Version : Hate Deamons? Want to learn how to beat them? Post army lists here!



Dungeon_Lawyer
08-05-2009, 18:25
Ok enough whining about DoC's and how they dominate tournament/casual play. Lets do something about it! It was expressed on another thread that due to the prevalence of powergammer DoC lists at tournies, developing army lists tailored solely to defeat deamons is becoming a viable strategy to place well at tournaments. Ironically people seem to be seeing a pattern/lists where Orgres can be competiative in DoC killer lists.

So here it is, lets use this thread to discuss and post army specific anti-Doc lists. If you knew you were going to go against DoC and you played HE, or Lizzies, or TK, etc. What troops, magic items etc. would you be bringing along? What tactics/strategies would you be looking to employ? full army lists and descriptions welcome! C'mon lets take back our game from the broken DoC!

Here is a sample 2000 point OK army list from another thread which has a good record against DoC-how would you fill out the last 250?


I have had some outsdanding massacres with my OK army against daemons.

A full tyrant with D3 great weapon 5+ ward save and +1 toughness with stupidity
3 butchers, each with a dispel scroll, 1 with fistfull of laurels, 1 with bangstick, 1 with skull mantle
1 unit of 3 regular ogres (cause u have to)
3 units of 4 Ironguts
1 unit of 3 irongut (go with 1 butcher and tyrant)
2 units of 2 leadbelchers
2 gorgers
----------------2000

Ultimate Life Form
08-05-2009, 18:34
Well, what you are describing is known as the metagame, and is very influential. In MagictG, its the usual game: Someone comes up with an unbeatable new deck. Everyone copies the deck, and suddenly the tournaments are full with these which always win. As a result, people develop an anti-deck that is specifically tailored to beat this one deck but doesnt stand a chance against anything else. In the end, a tournament list looks like this:

45% Killer Decks
45% Anti-Killer Decks
10% Bystanders
(Okay, maybe I exaggerate a bit here...:angel:)

Im surprised this concept seems to be new to Warhammer players? If an army list dominates the tournaments, then take something with you that helps against it!

Being a Lizardmen player, I would suggest the Blade of Realities for this purpose which nicely works around these annoying Saves and of course the mighty Engine of the Gods, but Im sure someone else here can come up with much better ideas than myself and super-strong lists. I wish you the best of luck. Teach them the error of their ways taking DoC in expectance of easy victories!:D

fubukii
08-05-2009, 19:27
tournaments are usually 2250 so id say make lists for that point value.

anti DOC empire

war altar VHS 1+ save gorgon shield
3 lvl 2 mages 3-4 scrolls some other random items
2 stanks
3 cannons
6 pistoliers
3 x 5 knights
some random gunner units.

gg daemons. (except maybe nurgle lists but they are so slow)

Jormi_Boced
08-05-2009, 19:47
Lots of Shooting!

Dungeon_Lawyer
08-05-2009, 20:07
Lots of Shooting!

with who? With what? Specifics?

fubukii
08-05-2009, 20:13
anti doc skaven army (gets mauled by competitive vc normally though)

warlord - weepin blade, bands of power, warpstone amulet
3 warlocks FKMP, storm daemon, warpstone charm, 2 scrolls, eye of horned rat
4 x 25 clanrats full cmd (1 ratling gun)
4 x 25 slaves musician
3 x 5 NR
2 pwg
2 x 9 jezzails
2 x 5 tunnelers with PHW
2 WLC

neXus6
08-05-2009, 20:21
For casual play why don't you just refuse to play against WAAC daemon armies?
Balanced daemon armies are just as fun as any other army to play with or against.

Seriously I don't get why people tar the whole book based on what people who play to win do, you could do the same for many armies.

Weemo
09-05-2009, 21:49
i agree with neXus6, i mean i was playing with an avaregae daemon army against my friends army of empire, he had karl franz on a dragon and i had nohing to deal with it, in the end i won but it shows that not all daemon armies are horrific just because you write

2250 Daemons

on the top of it

Rubicon
09-05-2009, 21:56
war altar VHS 1+ save gorgon shield


Can't have the Gorgon shield and the armour of meteoric iron...both magic armour.

sholcomb
10-05-2009, 05:27
I'd take an empire gunline, especially handgunners and helblasters. I'd also make sure I had a captain on a pegasus, with Van Horstman's Speculum, to deal with any greater deamons.

Putty
10-05-2009, 06:04
Dwarven gunline with cannons, bolt throwers and an anvil should deal with them effectively.

Two units of Quarrelers to anchor the flanks / guard warmachines is advised.

The army would need multiple Warrior and Ironbreaker units to set up counter charges if the daemon army would to choose to charge the warmachine / anvil

I played against a 7 DS Anvil/Gunline list once with my 3 MoT on Disk sorcerers, 100 marauder list and not only he fended off my Magic Phase but he also took out 50% (including two knight units) with his shooting.

sirbone
10-05-2009, 06:29
I think it's sad that gunlines are most people's immediate answer. As a Greenskin player, I would just hope to batter them thoroughly in combat and with CR, particularly with the advantage I'll have in numbers. Of course, a few bolt throwers and stone throwers will come in handy, but numbers is what you need. It's strange that many Greenskin players don't take advantage of our troops' cheepness. I'm hoping to really ram some daemon players this week, ha.

Rodman49
10-05-2009, 07:08
anti DOC empire

war altar VHS 1+ save gorgon shield
3 lvl 2 mages 3-4 scrolls some other random items
2 stanks
3 cannons
6 pistoliers
3 x 5 knights
some random gunner units.

Can't say I quite agree with this list; better to do . . .

WALTER, VHS, AoMI, Sword of Fate
Lvl 2 Wiz, Rod of Power, Ring of Volans
Lvl 2 Wiz, Dispell Scroll, Power Stone
Captasus, DoomfireRing, Bronze Shield

5-6 Knights
5-6 Knights
5-6 Knights
10-20 Flagellants

6 Pistoliers (or Outriders instead)
6 Pistoliers (or Outriders instead)
Cannon
Cannon

Steam Tank
Giant or Steam Tank

Dungeon_Lawyer
10-05-2009, 12:48
i agree with neXus6, i mean i was playing with an avaregae daemon army against my friends army of empire, he had karl franz on a dragon and i had nohing to deal with it, in the end i won but it shows that not all daemon armies are horrific just because you write

2250 Daemons

on the top of it

But you won! He had KF on a dragon, you had nothing adequate to deal with it-And you still won. The problem truly is 90% of the time you CAN write 2250 Daemons on the top of it and win. Its a broken army right now.

Ixquic
10-05-2009, 13:06
Having to list tailor is incredibly lame. Yes, you can make a list that will give you a shot at the average demon army but really is that what you want to do? If the demon player wants to he can always make his fun-time list a lot harder.

O&G'sRule
10-05-2009, 14:12
Learn to play the game properly, most armies are effective when used right.

fubukii
10-05-2009, 14:21
Can't have the Gorgon shield and the armour of meteoric iron...both magic armour.


doh i just realized i had forgotten to put or in that sentence thanks for the grammar check :)

Ixquic
10-05-2009, 14:45
Learn to play the game properly, most armies are effective when used right.

I thought we were past the point of "learn to play" or "use non-specific tactics" concerning beating demons.

Putty
10-05-2009, 15:47
I think it's sad that gunlines are most people's immediate answer....

Because its the most consistent and effective way.

That Guy
10-05-2009, 15:57
To the haters: I took a (Khorne) themed, intentionally underpowered (no Bloodthirster) Daemon army against my friend's Dark Elves last week. He had two Hydras, ASF Black Guard, and a unit of CoK with Hydra Banner. I still won. I am usually of the opinion that lists are overpowered, not books. This is not the case with Daemons.

As for beating Daemons, I think that it's all about quantity over quality. Almost everything in the army is T 3/4 with a 5+ ward. 10 S 3 attacks are way better than 5 S 4. So I would use lots of units to bait or lock down units (use ItP to your advantage: Daemons can't flee) and not worry too much if you have weak attacks because Daemons have weak defenses.

Shooting sounds nice, but between Flesh Hounds, Seekers, Fiends, Screamers, and Flying GD, Daemons can close the gap really, really quickly. So I think I'm going to stick with the quantity idea. Although I have had blocks of Bloodletters absolutely mauled by mortars, how many Daemons powergamers are taking big blocks of infantry that aren't plaguebearers?

Lowmans
10-05-2009, 17:56
In 1000 pts my BoC are OK

WarGor w/ MoT and Greatweapon
2 * Warhounds
3 Ogres w/ Great weapons and hvy armour
5 Centigor
Chariot
Giant
2 * Beast herd

The Ld 7 cap is a killer sometimes though - you just can't get your charges off.

>1000 points you can forget it. Flying Terror causers = Lose!
The existing BoC list isn't equipped to handle them, it needs the other old allied Hordes! imho

Jind_Singh
10-05-2009, 19:13
I took the "mega daemon army" against the HE to see what the fuss is about

3 units of horrors (10 strong), with standard that gives plus 1 to cast
3 heralds Tzeentch, all with power vortex, 1 BSB with sundering standard
3 units of furies (5 strong)
3 units of fleshounds
Thirster, tooled up for mayham

I got toasted!
He had:

4 bolt throwers
3 units of sword masters (10 strong)
2 units archers
level 4 mage
level 2 mage
hero
hero BSB (D6 combat res)

He shut my magic down, (drain magic!), shot me to death, and then if that wasn't bad enough some pansy elves with big swords hacked me down in combat!

Rubicon
10-05-2009, 19:44
The thing with gunlines is that often people complain about the way that a guinline will line up and roll dice but there is actually a lot more to an effective gunline than that.

Marchblocking, tarpitting, redirecting. All make it a lot easier to stop a daemon army from reaching your lines and give you a lot more time to shoot/magic them. Plus when they do eventually hit your lines (which they probably will) you have to have something to countercharge to stop them from just munching your whole army. Hence that's why I'd say pistoliers and huntsmen are just as important as handgunners and cannons for stopping daemons (or Dark riders and harpies-great eagles and shadow warriors-Glade Guard scouts and wild riders) Shooting them isn't enough.

skelezom
10-05-2009, 19:53
just use some skinks.... Thats a lot of poison attacks for the big AND the small.

fubukii
10-05-2009, 20:41
I took the "mega daemon army" against the HE to see what the fuss is about

3 units of horrors (10 strong), with standard that gives plus 1 to cast
3 heralds Tzeentch, all with power vortex, 1 BSB with sundering standard
3 units of furies (5 strong)
3 units of fleshounds
Thirster, tooled up for mayham

I got toasted!
He had:

4 bolt throwers
3 units of sword masters (10 strong)
2 units archers
level 4 mage
level 2 mage
hero
hero BSB (D6 combat res)

He shut my magic down, (drain magic!), shot me to death, and then if that wasn't bad enough some pansy elves with big swords hacked me down in combat!

try swapping power vortex for fly and MOS makes the army alot better trust me :P, u also need flamers

PeG
10-05-2009, 21:03
Or if you go magic take a lvl4 caster as well. The worst I have seen was daemons with 19 PD. Try shutting that magic phase down.

dsw1
10-05-2009, 21:36
I am more scared of facing a DE monster army or a lizzy "stegadon hoard" list, even vampire counts than daemons to be fair. Daemons are only as powerful as you think they are (lol philosophical mumbo jumbo), if you actually look at most of the stuff;

Core - mostly T3 5+ [ward] save, true they get a save against a cannon but they die easily to bow fire.

Special - Yes, these buggers can be nasty, esp. screamers and Flesh hounds so lets look more into these.

Screamers - S3 T3 1w 5+ save. Yes they fly so are hard to catch, but any hit on them is usually a guaranteed death of a screamer. I've had a unit of 5 screamers taken down to 1 by 10 high elf bowmen. Sure they pack a punch in the movement phase, but get any flier into them and the unit is usually dead by the end of the phase.

Flesh hounds - Yes, They are fast and strong, but again they lack defence. T4 5+ save, true they have 2 wounds and magic res(3) for added defence, but you have got to remember that they usually cost more than your heavy cav. The easiest way to kill them is to charge them and use your Combat res to pop them (easier said than done), and the reason I say charge first is because if they charge you probably won't be attacking back (unless you have amazing saves).

Rare - People mainly talk about Flamers here so I will talk about them.

Flamers - yes, these guys hit like flesh hounds and can shoot like a hellblaster, but they suffer in 2 areas. Combat and shooting (I bet you weren't expecting those ;)). Against shooting they are T4 with a 5+ save, imagine how fast Dryads die to shooting, and then imagine a unit of 12 dryads. that is about the equivalent to 6 flamers. If you take down even 1 of them, there shooting potential drops drasticly.
As for combat, Ws2 means anything Ws5+ will be hit on 5's this makes there combat prowess seem a lot less scary. sure, if they do hit, they will most likely wound, but they usually have 1/2 combat res. If you prepare beforehand and get a unit in with 3/4 combat res, they will disappear fairly quickly.

This is quite good news for WoC players/elves, as most of there stuff has Ws5 (or a high number like that) or either excellent armour OR good shooting skills.

Nicha11
10-05-2009, 21:50
I find that could old Thorek ensures me a win against demons.
Do heavy undispellable damage, and horrendously slowing their army? Priceless:D

Also no Bloodthirster has survived my 4 bolt throwers which strike at st7 or 8.

Also For dwarves, Ogran cannons, the best artillery in the game make no mistake.

O&G'sRule
10-05-2009, 21:58
I thought we were past the point of "learn to play" or "use non-specific tactics" concerning beating demons.

I agree that there are a couple of army builds you can do with daemons and a few SC's that are OTT, but most people don't use them in my experience. So beating most daemon armies is exactly that

fubukii
10-05-2009, 22:28
thorek is the most overpowered unit/char in the game period worse then any daemon army.

taking him is worse.

Commissar Lord Davril
11-05-2009, 03:46
I say use their few weaknesses against them. Shooting to death could work.

Nicha11
11-05-2009, 04:48
thorek is the most overpowered unit/char in the game period worse then any daemon army.

taking him is worse.

When the going gets tough the tough get going:skull:

(I would never use Thorek in a friendly game, and probably not in a tournament.)

Dungeon_Lawyer
11-05-2009, 15:53
To the haters: I took a (Khorne) themed, intentionally underpowered (no Bloodthirster) Daemon army against my friend's Dark Elves last week. He had two Hydras, ASF Black Guard, and a unit of CoK with Hydra Banner. I still won. I am usually of the opinion that lists are overpowered, not books. This is not the case with Daemons.

As for beating Daemons, I think that it's all about quantity over quality. Almost everything in the army is T 3/4 with a 5+ ward. 10 S 3 attacks are way better than 5 S 4. So I would use lots of units to bait or lock down units (use ItP to your advantage: Daemons can't flee) and not worry too much if you have weak attacks because Daemons have weak defenses.

Shooting sounds nice, but between Flesh Hounds, Seekers, Fiends, Screamers, and Flying GD, Daemons can close the gap really, really quickly. So I think I'm going to stick with the quantity idea. Although I have had blocks of Bloodletters absolutely mauled by mortars, how many Daemons powergamers are taking big blocks of infantry that aren't plaguebearers?


Great general info here, thanks for posting this.

EvC
11-05-2009, 18:50
I thought we were past the point of "learn to play" or "use non-specific tactics" concerning beating demons.

Lol, brilliant. Non-specific tactics ftw!!!

Lijacote
11-05-2009, 18:59
Lol, brilliant. Non-specific tactics ftw!!!

Confucious' sage advice:
Flank with your horses, kill with your characters and... eh, roll well!

Storak
11-05-2009, 19:15
Lol, brilliant. Non-specific tactics ftw!!!

shoot them!

Ixquic
11-05-2009, 21:58
shoot them!

Best one I remember was to tie down the flying Bloodthirster with flaggelants.

EvC
11-05-2009, 22:11
I learnt from the Whte Dwarf Battle Report that you can easily take down a Daemon Prince just by dropping rocks on him. Now if people would just start... using them...

neXus6
11-05-2009, 22:12
Sigh I give up, whatever some of you think the armybook is NOT overpowered just certain lists, the book is easily abusable but it is still down to the player to abuse it.

Have fun coming up with WAAC lists. ;)

pfishy98
11-05-2009, 22:14
I find that could old Thorek ensures me a win against demons.
Do heavy undispellable damage, and horrendously slowing their army? Priceless:D

Also no Bloodthirster has survived my 4 bolt throwers which strike at st7 or 8.

Also For dwarves, Ogran cannons, the best artillery in the game make no mistake.

that is pretty much the definition of a gunline:cheese:

Foegnasher
11-05-2009, 22:20
my lizatrd list was specifically taylored to ruin demon player's days.

carnasaur, oldblood, (not the other way around ;) ) la, ench shield, Blade of "whoops, you're dead"
lvl 2 skinkule, engine of burny hurty, dispel scroll, diadem of +2 dispel dice.
skink chief, la, shield, spear of the steamroller, steggadon

18 sarus, fc, spears
18 saurus, fc, spears
11 skink skirmishers
11 skink skirmishers

3 terribledons
3 more terribledons
5 cold un's, mu.

hits HARD. kills demons DEAD with the ability to charge full bore into a unit and put the hurting on, while the saurus/cold ones move up to flank. enough dispel dice to stop the worst of it, and the engine to torch those annoying hounds back to the hellhole that spawned them.

ChaosCajun
12-05-2009, 00:20
Lizzies can also use Slann with discipline of Big Chicken Can't Roll 6's in a stubborn TG unit that causes fear if they don't want the Old Blood. Make the Slann a BSB with Warbanner as well so even the thirster has problems with CR.

Dark Elves will pincushion most daemon armies and have good magic to compete.

VC are ITP and can get massive CR and regenerate/summon to outcompete losses.

Empire has the toys previously mentioned plus warpriests causing hatred.

Brets have a massive charge punch that will whittle most daemons down at impact. As most of these units are MUS, this doesn't leave much to fight back. Only big Nurgle tarpits can compete with this charge (unless the Brets fail fear checks). Not only that, they get ward saves as well and have characters that can get 4+ wards.

In general, Daemons are large targets so can be hit by every shooter you have usually. and they are a massive points sink. My BT has died to a rocklobba, bolt throwers, cannon, dwarven hammerers, arch-lector, and the list goes on. My chicken runs around firing spells and vainly trying to stay out of charge/shooting arc the whole battle. My screamers get shot down and my letters rarely ever get into combat and route an enemy unit, usually they die to shooting or CR. The hounds and flamers are tough, but I've seen them die to skinks, a stegadon (and I charged it!), Brets, and dwarven shooters.

I have several WFB armies (BOC, DOC, WOC, Lizzies, Brets, Empire) and have had daemons in my chaos army since 5th edition. I finally get a chance to play a competitive list that doesn't disappear when my opponent sneezes and I'm now made to feel ashamed or somehow gimp because I want to play them. I spend lots of cash and time buying, converting, and painting the army with many options and am told I can't play them because they're broken. The only way I can get a game with them is to agree not to bring a greater daemon, fleshhounds, or flamers. So, sadly, I leave them in the box waiting for the gaming community to find the balance GW thought they had when they published the book or GW to put out another list.

Dungeon_Lawyer
12-05-2009, 06:30
I finally get a chance to play a competitive list that doesn't disappear when my opponent sneezes and I'm now made to feel ashamed or somehow gimp because I want to play them. I spend lots of cash and time buying, converting, and painting the army with many options and am told I can't play them because they're broken. The only way I can get a game with them is to agree not to bring a greater daemon, fleshhounds, or flamers. So, sadly, I leave them in the box waiting for the gaming community to find the balance GW thought they had when they published the book or GW to put out another list.


:cries: .........

Fenrir
12-05-2009, 12:24
I have several WFB armies (BOC, DOC, WOC, Lizzies, Brets, Empire) and have had daemons in my chaos army since 5th edition. I finally get a chance to play a competitive list that doesn't disappear when my opponent sneezes and I'm now made to feel ashamed or somehow gimp because I want to play them. I spend lots of cash and time buying, converting, and painting the army with many options and am told I can't play them because they're broken. The only way I can get a game with them is to agree not to bring a greater daemon, fleshhounds, or flamers. So, sadly, I leave them in the box waiting for the gaming community to find the balance GW thought they had when they published the book or GW to put out another list.


:cries: .........

Playing means that you get instnatly tagged with an unwarranted reputation, made be crybabies on the web who can;t accept that they are losing to the best army in the game.

I used to fuss about it and worry about my army list being fair. Still had to put up with the same infantile comments about the internet reputation of the army, so now I go full powered and rub it in when people get crushed by the army.

Can't beat daemons? You better raise your game then, 'cos the army isn't going anywhere. Cry on the web all you want - you still lost the game!

Ixquic
12-05-2009, 13:20
Playing means that you get instnatly tagged with an unwarranted reputation, made be crybabies on the web who can;t accept that they are losing to the best army in the game.

I used to fuss about it and worry about my army list being fair. Still had to put up with the same infantile comments about the internet reputation of the army, so now I go full powered and rub it in when people get crushed by the army.

Can't beat daemons? You better raise your game then, 'cos the army isn't going anywhere. Cry on the web all you want - you still lost the game!

I just don't play against demons unless I'm forced to in a tournament.

Also I don't really care about losing to them since it's not like it's generally indicative of skill levels of anyone involved. It's just a waste of time.

Shamfrit
12-05-2009, 13:29
I'd rather be charged by Flesh Hounds over Dragon Princes, Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, Black Knights, Bloodcrushers, Any Brettonnians, Hydras, Black Coachs, Stegadons of any description any day of the week...

Fenrir
12-05-2009, 13:31
I just don't play against demons unless I'm forced to in a tournament.

Also I don't really care about losing to them since it's not like it's generally indicative of skill levels of anyone involved. It's just a waste of time.


Boo hoo:cries::cries::cries:, I lose to daemons, so it's a boring game. :cries::cries:

I know! Go and compain on the web, that always sorts things out.

Doesn't it?

Ixquic
12-05-2009, 13:45
It may sound crazy but games where I don't get to move models under my own control are pretty boring. Games where I crush people with my own overpowered lists are boring too so I don't play those.

Also I already found a solution that doesn't involve complaining on the web thanks; I don't play demon armies. I understand GW will never go back and fix problems and will stupidly try to fix stuff by adding "balances" to following lists, but that doesn't mean I have to play against every army they throw out. I'm sorry if that offends you, but really I'm enjoying the hobby more by pretending that book doesn't exist regardless of win-loss record (hint: I don't care about losing in this game but having to play at a ridiculous disadvantage based solely on what army you are up against doesn't equal fun).

Fenrir
12-05-2009, 13:50
It may sound crazy but games where I don't get to move models under my own control are pretty boring. Games where I crush people with my own overpowered lists are boring too so I don't play those.

Also I already found a solution that doesn't involve complaining on the web thanks; I don't play demon armies. I'm sorry if that offends you, but really I'm enjoying the hobby more by pretending that book doesn't exist regardless of win-loss record (hint: I don't care about losing in this game but having to play at a ridiculous disadvantage based solely on what army you are up against doesn't equal fun).

Considering that I'm currently playing beastmen, I know what you mean.

Don't see me crying about the daemons though. Or refusing to play books and ignoring the actuality of the book being in the game.

valdrog
12-05-2009, 14:11
Problem with Demons is that they are a VERY ..VERY forgiving army, you can make any number of mistakes while playing them, and still have a pretty damn good chance to win the game by a landslide. In contrast, my poor O&G can loose the whole game if i fail one animosity roll.

I play against them and laugh in good humor as Skulltaker kills my General by just frowning at him, or a few Flamers turn my 25 BO unit into melted slag and then kill my Boar boys in hand to hand, or one failed terror test with several negatives piled up on it makes my lines crumble like a cheap papercup as the cascade of panic runs through my army.

Fenrir
12-05-2009, 14:19
Like I've said previously I feel bad for reasonable Demon players that got screwed with an OP list (I played VC so I understand the pain), but the vast majority of the people that play the list chose it specifically because they know that it's massively overpowered.

Yet, you choose to tar everyone with the same brush?


What happens when another army comes out (Skaven, say) that is hideous and knocks daemons off the top spot - refuse to play them too?

Then what happens if it's your army that is boosted in the next edition? Refuse to use them?

Ixquic
12-05-2009, 15:09
Yet, you choose to tar everyone with the same brush?


What happens when another army comes out (Skaven, say) that is hideous and knocks daemons off the top spot - refuse to play them too?

Then what happens if it's your army that is boosted in the next edition? Refuse to use them?

Sorry but I'm not going to ask every random person for an army list to make sure that they are the 5% of demon players that put together a Slaanesh list without the Masque and Siren Song on the Keeper or left the two units of maxed flamers at home. I'm not such an amazing person that they are missing out by not playing me and life's too short to waste time on games that have a huge chance of not being fun.

If an army comes out that totally knocks demons off their perch as #1 I'm quitting the game entirely since at that point it's obvious that GW has no idea how to balance this game whatsoever. I've accepted that they dropped the ball with demons and came close with Dark Elves and Vampire Counts but if we ever go farther than where we are now there is no point in pretending the game has anything to do with fairness.

My army (Vampire Counts) already was boosted and there's no end of bitching here about them. I did stop playing the army for a while since a lot of people couldn't keep up with it (see the European tournament styled comp hit of 250 points less for that army). That wasn't fun for either of us. Recently I've started trying to get together a blatantly underpowered Lahmia list without most of the stuff people complain about and no armor better than a 6+ save on characters in order to try and get some decent games in.

Fenrir
12-05-2009, 15:45
Recently I've started trying to get together a blatantly underpowered Lahmia list without most of the stuff people complain about and no armor better than a 6+ save on characters in order to try and get some decent games in.

And if people try to do the same with daemons*, you'd still refuse to play them on account of the army books potential. But when you try the same thing using the vampires book, it's fair?




*it is possible, I've received decent comp scores for a daemon army in the past.

danny7865
12-05-2009, 15:47
I would play against any power gamer, as it will make me a better general.

A Balanced list works as armies which rely on one phase can be potentially very weak. I love to tinker and think in a club setting it helps me as it keeps people guessing what i'm bringing. Not been to any tournaments so a take allcomers list is not my forte.

But a uber powered lizardmen army (2k) (2 EOTG a massiv TG slann unit etc ) with my high elves. Maybe the future would be tournies which lists can be changed from game to game.

Dungeon_Lawyer
12-05-2009, 16:07
I used to fuss about it and worry about my army list being fair. ....I go full powered and rub it in when people get crushed by the army.

Can't beat daemons? You better raise your game then, 'cos the army isn't going anywhere. Cry on the web all you want - you still lost the game!


Enjoy your "full-powered" DoC :cheese: lists Fen, nobody is stopping you from making any list you want. But we non-DoC players do have a choice as to whether we want to play those lists, most dont. Its simply no fun, which is the real reason most of play this game, not to win, but to have fun. This has been argued ad nauseum here on warseer-we dont need another thread devolving into that too....

The thread is about army specific tactics to use against deamons-You tell us to "raise our game" but then flame the content of the thread, which is an attempt from us non-DoC players to do exactly that! So if you want to be constuctive, how about a post on how you would try to handle DoC with your beasts? What would that army look like and what tactics would you attempt to employ?

HellRaid
12-05-2009, 16:48
Boo hoo:cries::cries::cries:, I lose to daemons, so it's a boring game. :cries::cries:

I know! Go and compain on the web, that always sorts things out.

Doesn't it?

Do you realise the irony of complaining on the web about people who complain on the web? :angel:


Personally, I think Daemons are horribly broken, but that doesn't stop me playing against them. My friend plays a pure-Tzeentch army, and I fight it with my Wood Elves. It's a real challenge.

I'm glad he doesn't use proper fighting units though (eg. Bloodletters) - then it would really suck playing against him =/

Shamfrit
12-05-2009, 16:49
You ask us for lists to beat Daemons...

Then say you're not going to play against them...

Catch 22 much?

Lijacote
12-05-2009, 17:02
Do you realise the irony of complaining on the web about people who complain on the web? :angel:


Personally, I think Daemons are horribly broken, but that doesn't stop me playing against them. My friend plays a pure-Tzeentch army, and I fight it with my Wood Elves. It's a real challenge.

I'm glad he doesn't use proper fighting units though (eg. Bloodletters) - then it would really suck playing against him =/

You're a wood elf... and would rather face horrors than bloodletters?

I see.

EvC
12-05-2009, 17:31
Here's a list for beating Daemons, gave them a thorough trashing I did:
Daemon Prince, re-rolls to hit/ wound
Slaanesh Herald, Sundering
6 x 12 Bloodletters, Always March standard
10 Daemonettes
2 x 6 Furies
2 x 6 Seekers, no reaction banner
2 x 2 Fiends

...yeah, that's my opponent's army list :) They're not that hard to beat when opponents intentionally cripple themselves. But a normal Daemon list? The answer's the same: shoot them, Gateway them, stick 'em in a stew. I was watching a game with my above opponent trying a different low-powered Daemon list, entirely Slaanesh this time, and his Dark Elf opponent was obliterating him with his shooting- I didn't see a single Daemon ward save passed. The cheesy Rending Star/ Manbane Assassin even took the Prince down to 1 wound. Then turn 2 and the Dark Elves and Daemons started charging each other. Combined with a couple of unlucky panic checks, all the Dark Elves had left a couple of turns later were the Black Guard. Everything else had been annihilated. That's by the weakest of the Daemon infantry, without Heralds for ASF. Against another top-deck army. Imagine if the Daemon player had actually brought any proper tricks, like Siren Song, or a Greater Daemon, or some Flamers, rather than just the 1-use stubborn banners...

Shamfrit
12-05-2009, 17:40
6 units of 12 Bloodletters?

Rofl, that's pretty good actually.

Da GoBBo
12-05-2009, 18:31
Sigh I give up, whatever some of you think the armybook is NOT overpowered just certain lists, the book is easily abusable but it is still down to the player to abuse it.

I agree. Last edition there was a certain skaven list everybody whined about. Other skaven lists were fine though. I don't know deamons, but it's probably the same thing. One question, how many deamonlists are "nice lists" and fun to play with as well as opposed to the number of unpleasant lists. They don't have that many options (but I play O&G) so if some units are a no-go there might not be that much left. Personally, if I were to play deamons (and the great unclean one might just be the reason to play them), I definitly want a great unclean one cause he's the man. I love that mini (with the old head). I'd want to have the 6th edition deamonettes but also plaguebearers. I don't really care much for other mini's except the flamers so i'll include those as well. Is this even an army? or a weak army or even a power army? I wouldn't know.

valdrog
12-05-2009, 19:15
Here is a way to deal with Demons.

Black Orc Warboss
Wyvern, shaga's screaming sword, warbos best hat, guzzlas battle brew.
Savage orc big boss:
chariot, akkrit axe.
Savage Orc Big boss:
chariot, martogs best basha, kickin boots.
Savage orc shaman:
boar, lvl 2, 2x dispell scrolls

2x Spider riders:
5 riders, bows, musc.
2x Night Goblins:
20 NG, 2 fanatics, musc, short bows
2x Snotlings:
2 bases per group.

4x Orc Boar Chariots

2x Giants

NG units facing either hounds or seekers, snotlings in front of them 7 inches, snots get charged, fanatics come out, go through snots and sits in front of them, when charge completes, charges ladn on top of snots and take 2d6 strg hits per fanatic.

Spider riders are great for baiting since they get no penalties for difficult terain.

The plan is to hit one unit with 3-4 chariots and the warboss if he's not enagge somewhere else, whatever they hit should die in that round.

The giants can take on any ranked unit on their own, as long as they get the charge, they will act as perfect tarpits for the chariots to smack on the sides.

Demon armies tend to be very small and you should be able to get lots of nice flank charges with the chariots.

opinions ? critics ?

Storak
12-05-2009, 20:34
Here is a way to deal with Demons.

Black Orc Warboss
Wyvern, shaga's screaming sword, warbos best hat, guzzlas battle brew.
Savage orc big boss:
chariot, akkrit axe.
Savage Orc Big boss:
chariot, martogs best basha, kickin boots.
Savage orc shaman:
boar, lvl 2, 2x dispell scrolls

2x Spider riders:
5 riders, bows, musc.
2x Night Goblins:
20 NG, 2 fanatics, musc, short bows
2x Snotlings:
2 bases per group.

4x Orc Boar Chariots

2x Giants

NG units facing either hounds or seekers, snotlings in front of them 7 inches, snots get charged, fanatics come out, go through snots and sits in front of them, when charge completes, charges ladn on top of snots and take 2d6 strg hits per fanatic.

Spider riders are great for baiting since they get no penalties for difficult terain.

The plan is to hit one unit with 3-4 chariots and the warboss if he's not enagge somewhere else, whatever they hit should die in that round.

The giants can take on any ranked unit on their own, as long as they get the charge, they will act as perfect tarpits for the chariots to smack on the sides.

Demon armies tend to be very small and you should be able to get lots of nice flank charges with the chariots.

opinions ? critics ?

2 units of flamers will eliminate 2 of your units per turn.

a terror causing flyer will force a Ld 5 test (possibly -5 modification for masque and Ld -2 banner), a running unit doesn t release fanatics.
daemons have access to cheap flyers, that can release fanatics (and beat up snotlings, btw)

attacks with S7+ (magic, BT and co) will be very bad to those chariots.

no spirit totem to stop their magic? ouch!

i don t see this tactic working at all.

HellRaid
12-05-2009, 21:05
You're a wood elf... and would rather face horrors than bloodletters?

I see.

No. I'd rather face just horrors rather than a mix of horrors and bloodletters - the lack of combat potential in a pure horror army means that when a decent close combat unit hits them, they're screwed. Dryads and Wardancers tear them up, and the rest of the army can simply outrange their magic (Warhawk Riders and Glade Riders can be used to prevent magic casting on a few units and attempt to assassinate heralds). I never said it was easy, mind ;)

A bloodletter unit would really mess that up though, as they can actually fight in combat, which removes a key weakness of the horror list.

Lijacote
12-05-2009, 21:25
No. I'd rather face just horrors rather than a mix of horrors and bloodletters - the lack of combat potential in a pure horror army means that when a decent close combat unit hits them, they're screwed. Dryads and Wardancers tear them up, and the rest of the army can simply outrange their magic (Warhawk Riders and Glade Riders can be used to prevent magic casting on a few units and attempt to assassinate heralds). I never said it was easy, mind ;)

A bloodletter unit would really mess that up though, as they can actually fight in combat, which removes a key weakness of the horror list.

I concede that point to you, a matter of miscommunication. You are correct, most likely.

Mea culpa.

Shamfrit
12-05-2009, 21:32
Lvl.2 Battle Wizard, Lore of Life.

End of Flamers.

Next?

EvC
12-05-2009, 22:22
Only if you're playing a retarded Daemon opponent who doesn't bother to dispel RiP spells. Which is of course a possibility. But if they do remember, they'll almost certainly have at least one unit of Horrors and 3 dice to easily dispel that magic. It doesn't end them anyway, it just reduces them to a combat unit. Which they do far too well for what they are!

Dungeon_Lawyer
13-05-2009, 15:07
Here is a way to deal with Demons.

Black Orc Warboss
Wyvern, shaga's screaming sword, warbos best hat, guzzlas battle brew.
Savage orc big boss:
chariot, akkrit axe.
Savage Orc Big boss:
chariot, martogs best basha, kickin boots.
Savage orc shaman:
boar, lvl 2, 2x dispell scrolls

2x Spider riders:
5 riders, bows, musc.
2x Night Goblins:
20 NG, 2 fanatics, musc, short bows
2x Snotlings:
2 bases per group.

4x Orc Boar Chariots

2x Giants

NG units facing either hounds or seekers, snotlings in front of them 7 inches, snots get charged, fanatics come out, go through snots and sits in front of them, when charge completes, charges ladn on top of snots and take 2d6 strg hits per fanatic.

Spider riders are great for baiting since they get no penalties for difficult terain.

The plan is to hit one unit with 3-4 chariots and the warboss if he's not enagge somewhere else, whatever they hit should die in that round.

The giants can take on any ranked unit on their own, as long as they get the charge, they will act as perfect tarpits for the chariots to smack on the sides.

Demon armies tend to be very small and you should be able to get lots of nice flank charges with the chariots.

opinions ? critics ?


Plans' a good'un. I quite it, an orc with a plan! The snotlings taking a charge 7" from the NG/fanatics to spring the fanatics is pretty sneaky. And yeah giants would be a good bet....but as mentioned no spirit totem? And how would you deal with flamers?

Ixquic
13-05-2009, 16:44
Here is a way to deal with Demons.

Black Orc Warboss
Wyvern, shaga's screaming sword, warbos best hat, guzzlas battle brew.
Savage orc big boss:
chariot, akkrit axe.
Savage Orc Big boss:
chariot, martogs best basha, kickin boots.
Savage orc shaman:
boar, lvl 2, 2x dispell scrolls

2x Spider riders:
5 riders, bows, musc.
2x Night Goblins:
20 NG, 2 fanatics, musc, short bows
2x Snotlings:
2 bases per group.

4x Orc Boar Chariots

2x Giants

NG units facing either hounds or seekers, snotlings in front of them 7 inches, snots get charged, fanatics come out, go through snots and sits in front of them, when charge completes, charges ladn on top of snots and take 2d6 strg hits per fanatic.

Spider riders are great for baiting since they get no penalties for difficult terain.

The plan is to hit one unit with 3-4 chariots and the warboss if he's not enagge somewhere else, whatever they hit should die in that round.

The giants can take on any ranked unit on their own, as long as they get the charge, they will act as perfect tarpits for the chariots to smack on the sides.

Demon armies tend to be very small and you should be able to get lots of nice flank charges with the chariots.

opinions ? critics ?

The general will be killed the moment the Keeper of Secrets can get into his front arc. The giants are only T5 and a large target so flamers will destroy them. Fanatics aren't that nasty, especially when you have ward saves. With leadership 5 across the board after the general is killed and the banner is in the middle of the table more than half of the chariots won't make it in to fight and will probably end up losing combat and break from outnumbering fear. Spider Riders will never make it into combat to flank charge regardless of the general being alive or not.

isidril93
13-05-2009, 18:43
honestly...if he is not using GD then take large units of better infantry
18 swordmasters/chosen/black guard

against flamers i would suggest:
something that immune to fire
eg. dragon princes with banner of elyrion
lore of like...if they stay in the trees use that to your advantage

against greater daemon i suggest warmchines and some monster (those that cant take monsters usually have ample warmachines)

pkain762
14-05-2009, 03:46
i use unbreakable units to tie down their advancing lines while i shoot away with my cannons and hellblaster and then countercharge with the steam tank and cavalry

kain

Kevlar
14-05-2009, 04:06
Unit 1
Skaven Warlord - warplock pistol, warpstone armor, twisted crown, enchanted shield
Skaven Champion, BSB warbanner
25 Stormvermin, banner of the swarm, champ, std, musc, shields
Ratling gun

Unit 2
Warlock engineer, full kit + warplock pistol, dispel scroll, storm daemon
25 Clanrats, musician, std
Ratling gun

Unit 3
Warlock engineer, full kit + warplock pistol, dispel scroll, death globes
25 Clanrats, musician, std
Ratling gun

Unit 4
25 Clanrats, musician, std
Warpfire Thrower

Unit 5
25 Clanrats, musician, std
Warpfire Thrower

Unit 6
21 slaves, musician

Unit 7
21 slaves, musician

Unit 8
21 slaves, musician

Unit 9
18 Plague monks, xtra hand weapons, banner of burning hatred

Unit 10
18 Plague monks, xtra hand weapons

Unit 11
10 Jezzails

Unit 12
Warp Lightning cannon

Unit 13
10 Plague censer bearers

Thats 10 infantry blocks, lots of war machines, some magic, and lots of str 5 and 6 shooting. Oh and 13 is their lucky number!

metal midget
15-05-2009, 14:24
usualy i fight nurgle and play skaven so i target the warp lightning to pick out the herald and swarm the rest

ScalySkin
20-05-2009, 23:23
As a lizardmen player, I have 4 tactics which are very effective against daemons:

Use my poison skink blowpipe attacks to shoot the tough Daemon Lords

Take advantage of the Daemon instability and hammer them with combat resolution

Use burning alignment ability from EoTGs

Take a slaan with bane head (for the pesky Daemon lord) and choose lore of light and put him in the middle of a heap of temple guards

The great thing about the lizardmen anti-daemon list is it is versatile enough that it is a good all-purpose list that would do well at tournaments.

2250 pts

Slaan - Focus of mystery, focused rumination, becalming cognition, BSB, bane head, cupped hands of the old ones, 2 power stones

Skink priest - lvl 2, EoTGs, Diadem of Power, Scroll

Scar Vet - Great Weapon, Cold one armor (goes with saurus block to give extra damage and make them cause fear)

17 saurus - spears, standard bearer, musician

2 * 12 skink skirmishers

18 Temple Guard - FC, sword of the hornet

3 terradons

2 * 5 cold one cavalry - standard bearer, musician

The only change you would want to make to this list for a tournament would be to replace something with a salamander or two.

fubukii
21-05-2009, 02:21
how to kill flamers,

(my skaven)

Ratling guns, Warped lightning, Weeping blade characters, static cr units if he chooses to charge.

nurgle troops annoy me, but my warlord can normally beat a HON its the other 2 blocks that i have to whittle down with spells shooting and magic and hope thats enough :P

theDarkGeneral
21-05-2009, 06:39
Well, I'll add some thoughts from a long time Daemon player...myself.


Now, I've played with Daemons since the begining of 3rd Edition, when there was no Dark 4, and only a couple kinds of Daemons. Then the Slaves to Darkness and the Lost and the Damned books came out...


As an all around Chaos player, Daemons has always been my fave of the 3, just the fluff and background of the Army draws me to them. I remember back when 4th Edition allowed me to mix Mortals w/Beasts w/Daemons...then 5th Edition forced me to play ALL Daemons...then 6th Edition came out, I got a little more then a page of Rules that sucked...Warhammer Annual released a list that allowed a TREMENDOUS amount of Power Dice be generated, and back then a single mage could use them all...then the Hordes of Chaos hit the shelves and we lost half our units, all our differences (no upgrades for the most part) and anything Magical touched us and we died...and we stayed like that for YEARS...then the Storm of Chaos brings us back our lost units, gives us a few new options, and whamo, we're back in the competitive game!!! How much hatred was given to us Daemonic Legion players??? Quite a bit, yet VERY few of us won Overall GTs with them.

Now, we've been given an entire book that has the potential to be very Powerful. No more so though then the Vampire Counts and Dark Elves, and Warriors of Chaos and High Elves and Lizardmen...all the new 7th Edition books (except Orcs and the Empire) are able to get silly powerful.

I believe the Daemon Special Characters are quite too powerful, and honestly not needed to win games...



Now, I've brought almost the exact same list to many, many Tournaments over the past year, and done very well for myself with it. From RTTs to Indy GTs and the big GW GTs I've enjoyed a lot of success. However, I don't bring the super powered up Daemon Armies that I myself hate playing against. It's a balanced list, with the Chosen Numbers and old True Core rule used. (though I don't have to follow either of these)


Does this make me a cheese monger, or power gamer, or "unskilled player"? No, most definitely not, just as the Gunlines, or SAD, or Lizard Area of Death Armies function...


To label an entire book and all it's players as hated amongst the Warhammer Community is not at all accurate or fair. If you want to complain about Powergamers and broken Special Characters, then that is by all means a valid and understandable post.


The lists that most are posting would actually do fine against the Power Daemon builds, but poorly against my list...so I think ya'll should reconsider what you're posting about exactly...

EvC
21-05-2009, 12:02
What's your list, Mister DarkGeneral? :)

Fenrir
21-05-2009, 14:10
If you ask nicely, he might show pictures of his army. I've seen it already, so know how stunning it is.

theDarkGeneral
22-05-2009, 04:20
EvC: Here it is...

Army of the Southern Gate
Daemons of Chaos

CHARACTERS:
1x Herald of Khorne: (165pts)
*General, Juggernaut, Armor of Khorne

1x Herald of Nurgle: (215pts)
*BSB, Great Standard of Sundering, Noxious Vapours

1x Herald of Tzeentch: (140pts)
*Lvl 2 Tzeentch, Spell Breaker


CORE:
10x Chaos Furies: (120pts)
*Flyers, Skirmished

16x Bloodletters of Khorne: (247pts)
*Full Command, Skull Totem

18x Horrors of Tzeentch: (261pts)
*FC, Icon of Sorcery

21x Plaguebearers of Nurgle: (307pts)
*Full Command, Standard of Seeping Decay


SPECIAL:
8x Flesh Hounds of Khorne: (280pts)
*Cavalry


RARE:
3x Beasts of Nurgle: (300pts)
*Regeneration

6x Flamers of Tzeentch: (210pts)
*Skirmishers, Shoot Flames


TOTAL POINTS: 2,245
TOTAL MODELS: 85
Power Dice: 6
Dispel Dice: 4 +1 Spell Breaker



Fenrir: Your sarcasm is always entertaining...but since my army hasn't been fully painted/based/etc. I haven't bothered posting up pix of it. However, it'll be ready for QCR and my return to defend my title there...you can look up my name (Touradj Mansouri) as I play in most of the GTs and Indy GTs over here on the West Coast.

fubukii
22-05-2009, 07:36
looks like a ok list pretty balanced over all.

I think my skaven could take it down :)

Fenrir
22-05-2009, 08:20
Fenrir: Your sarcasm is always entertaining...but since my army hasn't been fully painted/based/etc. I haven't bothered posting up pix of it. However, it'll be ready for QCR and my return to defend my title there...you can look up my name (Touradj Mansouri) as I play in most of the GTs and Indy GTs over here on the West Coast.

I assumed that you were the same Dark General as the one on the Deamonic Legion forums? Must be getting mixed up.

After checking, it appears that I thought your army was Beowahrs one.

Levett
22-05-2009, 13:10
As someone who's getting back into fantasy and wanted to read about beating daemons... this thread is as much use as a spoon with a hole in it.

Memnos
22-05-2009, 13:15
I'm considering running an Anti-Demon list with Orcs and Goblins, but I have to be very careful.

8 Bolt Throwers and 2 Doom Divers is both inexpensive and easy to break Greater Daemons. Throw in some Fanatics and nets and even the most bad to the bone units will find it difficult to beat.

But if I do that, do people other than DoC want to play it? :p

selone
22-05-2009, 15:10
As someone who's getting back into fantasy and wanted to read about beating daemons... this thread is as much use as a spoon with a hole in it.

What army would you be using?

theDarkGeneral
22-05-2009, 15:18
fubukii: Ya' never know...the dice gods be fickle, so it could happen, but it wouldn't bother me none the least...chuckin' dice and having fun is the key end we should all be striving for. Thanks for the balanced compliment!



Fenrir: Yup, I'm the same "theDarkGeneral" that's on quite a few sites...at least i'm not getting confused with George (GeneralofChaos) again!!! :p



Levett: Beating Daemons is based off each Army differently. Know what the Daemon units can and can't do. Forcing a Daemon Army to seperate and split up to fight battles is pretty key, as Static Combat Res is a killer for us, and once Heralds die, the base Core units aren't nearly as useful. Greater Daemons die to Static Combat Res just as easily as anything else, issuing Personal Challenges with lowly unit Champs works nicely against things like Bloodthirsters...move atop a Hill, and let them charge the front. You have 3 Ranks, Unit Strength, a Standard and a Hill...6 Combat Res, and the mighty Bloodthirster will get 6 max from your single wound Unit Champ, and thus looses Combat because you have a Musician. Counter Charge the next turn to the Flank/Rear and again issue another Personal Challenge...



Memnos: LOL!!! The list will work against most Powered Daemon lists, but against Balanced lists it won't fair so well...get Daemons in Combat that they can't win via Static Combat Res...Flanks, Ranks, Standards and Unit Strength are VERY hard for us to overcome.

Grunge
22-05-2009, 15:18
I've been absent for some months. I thought that when I came back all this whining had gone away. I really did.




EDIT: anti-DOC whining*

Memnos
22-05-2009, 15:27
Grunge? I don't think it's 'Whining'. I think it's the fact that DoC have consistently won and placed super high in every tournament since coming out that's got people's ganders up.

It's also not 'whining' to have a thread dedicated to tactics to beat something that people dislike.

Lijacote
22-05-2009, 15:33
move atop a Hill, and let them charge the front. You have 3 Ranks, Unit Strength, a Standard and a Hill...6 Combat Res, and the mighty Bloodthirster will get 6 max from your single wound Unit Champ, and thus looses Combat because you have a Musician. Counter Charge the next turn to the Flank/Rear and again issue another Personal Challenge...


As much as that is clever, why would any player charge his bloodthirster at a ranked unit with full command on a hill in the front? Especially if you have flanking units ready?

Grunge
22-05-2009, 15:45
Grunge? I don't think it's 'Whining'. I think it's the fact that DoC have consistently won and placed super high in every tournament since coming out that's got people's ganders up.

It's also not 'whining' to have a thread dedicated to tactics to beat something that people dislike.


So did Wood Elves back in the day. And probably any new army list ever since.
By whining, I was referring to the actual whining, not the tactical discussion on how to beat them. But then again, if you tailor an army list to beat another, isn't that uber cheesy too?

If you want to beat them, play better than the guy who plays them. This applies to whatever army you and your opponent may have.

Shamfrit
22-05-2009, 15:48
This thread was running into Tactica and helpful territory, let's not derail it back to how it and it's predecessor started shall we?

Phazael
22-05-2009, 18:20
As much as that is clever, why would any player charge his bloodthirster at a ranked unit with full command on a hill in the front? Especially if you have flanking units ready?

If you have a source of pressure to force this fight, its often preferable to put the Thirster into combat, even if it is not an ideal one. A solid shooting or magic phase can force the issue, as can support units waiting in the wings. Sometimes I put my Thirster into that fight just to tie up that unit from getting in against the rest of my army. It happens, it just requires generalship to set the stage for it.

As TDG has stated, static combat res is a killer for this army, especially when combined with massed light attacks (Chaos Warriors, Saurus, ect) against our low toughness core units or backed up by a solid amount of light shooting. Like any top tier army, there is never going to be an easy "I win" button, but a few minor metagame adjustments and some solid generalship can get most armies past DoC, DE, or even VC. Really, the only armies I see at a huge disadvantage against DoC right now, with no way to compensate, are Beasts of Chaos and Ogre Kingdoms.

Lijacote
22-05-2009, 18:37
I'd rather charge my therotetical thirster at support units or the missile units... I doubt hiding is that much worse a deal than taking it from a perfect "trap" set for the thirster, either, but I get the point.

Just stirring some elaboration.

PeG
22-05-2009, 20:45
taken together the key to killing daemons is to shoot them with as many shots as possible. Magic is unreliable since they have to many untis with MR and also can bring a lot of dispel dice. Also banner of sundering messes with especially lore of light that is otherwise very efficient against daemons.

DE should be good at this, elves in general ok, empire pistoliers should be great etc but fact remains that daemons usually takes all the top positions in all tournaments. We will see if GW decides to include some anti daemon stuff in coming army books to level the playing field a bit.

bob_the_small
22-05-2009, 21:37
Beat daemons with daemons.... its the old fire with fire....

Levett
22-05-2009, 22:41
I'm using WoC with a Chosen / 2x Shrine / Festus build. Working really well so far, the chosen are simply devastating. The main thing im looking for advice on is dealing with Flamers, so any tips are welcome :)

theDarkGeneral
23-05-2009, 01:55
Beating Daemons is about good generalship, a balanced list and some average luck. If the dice gods show you dis-favor, it can be a VERY frustrating game. I play with and against Daemons, and have quite a few Armies, Beasts of Chaos being one of them. I've won every game thus far (12) against the Daemon Armies with my Beasts, though I'm using a mostly Khorne based list. It can be done, you just need to know what to kill, what to sacrifice, and when to "fake the fight".

Each Army has its own tools to defeat Daemons, though Ogre Kingdoms may be more hard pressed then the others. Vampire Counts spam is much harder to overcome, especially in the hands of a great player who gets the first turn...UGH!!!

A Hellcannon can ruin the day for Flamers in a heartbeat, as can a Shaggoth, or Dragon Ogres, or Chaos Ogres...lone Heroes charging out of units is often unexpected and quite useful.

PapaSmurf
23-05-2009, 02:33
Having read through this thread and having lost numerous times to daemons I felt I must comment. I am a competent general, I have won some tournys and can give a good account of myself against anyone - barring daemons. I have played them where I have done absolutely everything right, march blocked, hit them with a good combat unit and then flanked them and the outcome is still not even close, it has been a massacre every single time. I started reading this thread hoping there would be suggestions and actual useful info but since there has been little I will simply join the weep fest and bitch about the daemons - overpowered, underpriced and OTT.

On side note there were some complaints about Thorek, shove off, if I'm going to use an anvil it is going to be thorek, why should I not use him? Cause his rules are too good? By that arguement you should never use daemons at all. Dwarves play the gunline most effectively and thorek is an anchor of that strategy - yes strategy cause if you don't target prioritize, march block and deploy carefully it doesn't matter how many guns you've got your going to get crushed.

I find it very frustrating that a balanced list has absolutely no chance to win against VC, DE, Lizzards or DoC, I enjoy balance and this obvious difference in power levels of those books over everyone else is very hard to swallow

Just another frustrated Empire/WoC general (although Walter with VHS and gorgon shield is a blast, took six wounds off Kholek in one turn and chased him off the table, only good thing at the last tourny I was at)

Papasmurf

Storak
23-05-2009, 08:34
Beating Daemons is about good generalship, a balanced list and some average luck. If the dice gods show you dis-favor, it can be a VERY frustrating game. I play with and against Daemons, and have quite a few Armies, Beasts of Chaos being one of them. I've won every game thus far (12) against the Daemon Armies with my Beasts, though I'm using a mostly Khorne based list. It can be done, you just need to know what to kill, what to sacrifice, and when to "fake the fight".

yes. and that is, why all those competent generals winning tournaments run beast of chaos armies, while daemons barely dare to show up any more..


Each Army has its own tools to defeat Daemons, though Ogre Kingdoms may be more hard pressed then the others. Vampire Counts spam is much harder to overcome, especially in the hands of a great player who gets the first turn...UGH!!!

please tell me, how O&G will manage. and the comparison with another overpowered army is utterly useless.


A Hellcannon can ruin the day for Flamers in a heartbeat, as can a Shaggoth, or Dragon Ogres, or Chaos Ogres...lone Heroes charging out of units is often unexpected and quite useful.

the hell cannon will most likely get 2 partial and one full hit. most of the time, it will only kill a single flamer!
all those other will be forced to charge into terrain (or heaven forbid, a building)

bob_the_small
23-05-2009, 10:50
daemons win by being good and unbelieveably fast...... tarpits are the way to beat em... with some bigger monsters to kill their GD's

Lijacote
23-05-2009, 11:17
Last I saw greenskins had plenty of cheap <everything except boar boyz>, including arrers, warmachines, fodder...

If you could please be more specific in your complaining (:rolleyes: that term is so fabulous) then maybe someone could have something to say about your conundrums, other than "shoot it to death!"


daemons win by being good and unbelieveably fast...... tarpits are the way to beat em... with some bigger monsters to kill their GD's

Like this here. Do Nurgle's legions win by being unbelievably fast? Do you beat the ultimate tarpit with another tarpit*? Wouldn't an easier** way to beat a GD be charging it with ranked infantry since it only has 4 attacks?

Ambiguous blanket statements lead nowhere.

* I guess, if you flank afterwards :D
** As easy as it is charging something that has M6 and Terror...

Storak
23-05-2009, 11:26
daemons win by being good and unbelieveably fast...... tarpits are the way to beat em... with some bigger monsters to kill their GD's

i don t agree at all. basically, all daemon armies are tarpits. many of them are much more resilient, than anything any other army can throw at them.


Last I saw greenskins had plenty of cheap <everything except boar boyz>, including arrers, warmachines, fodder...

If you could please be more specific in your complaining (:rolleyes: that term is so fabulous) then maybe someone could have something to say about your conundrums, other than "shoot it to death!".

the warmachines can t be protected against daemons. their strong units will go right through the protective screen, and their flyers simply over it.

and if daemons go shooty (and magic), they will nearly always outshoot orcs.

a good start for a specific situation are those 6 flamers in a wood. please tell me, how O&G are supposed to handle them..

Shamfrit
23-05-2009, 11:47
Squig Hoppers.

Lots of them.

I mean, like, LOTS.

Lijacote
23-05-2009, 11:50
I don't know. Hoppers?

Just saying it helps to be specific, since situations vary. And I disagree about every daemon unit being a tarpit, a 5+ save isn't that great barring cannons and the unbreakable nature of daemons is a facade... but I'm not willing to discuss this, it's been done to death.

Let's just focus on how to beat them, not how arguably broken they are.

Weemo
23-05-2009, 12:16
But you won! He had KF on a dragon, you had nothing adequate to deal with it-And you still won. The problem truly is 90% of the time you CAN write 2250 Daemons on the top of it and win. Its a broken army right now.

soory this is probably badly written, i forgot to mention the other guy was very noobish, he got into combat with 1 unit of 10 horrors anda unit of PB's in the entire game

Storak
23-05-2009, 16:53
Squig Hoppers.

Lots of them.

I mean, like, LOTS.

and


I don't know. Hoppers?

hm. hoppers.

on the charge, those hoppers that get into contact will do 4.7 wounds, killing 2 flamers. flamers hit back, killing 3.5 hoppers. in the next combat turn, the flamers will strike first (ini 4 vs 3). that will leave 3 hoppers, which will most likely be outnumbered now...

and that is a best case scenario. if the hoppers get caught by a magic missile first, or get shot by the flamers, or even get charged by them....


Just saying it helps to be specific, since situations vary. And I disagree about every daemon unit being a tarpit, a 5+ save isn't that great barring cannons and the unbreakable nature of daemons is a facade... but I'm not willing to discuss this, it's been done to death.

Let's just focus on how to beat them, not how arguably broken they are.

daemon units, due to their special break rule, are obviously better tarpits than most other units.

so did anyone "learn how to beat daemons" already? from this discussion?

selone
23-05-2009, 17:51
Levett if you're really worried about flamers, tzeentch marked knights with the ward save banner t4 , 1+ armour save, 4+ ward save vs shooting phase attacks will do the job or you could go for nurgle for the -1 to hit, or a warhound expensable screen. Of all the armies out there and of all the demon unit's I'd imagine with your high toughness, high armour troops and expendable hound screens flamers are not the most worrying thing in the game in sheer damage potential.
You may have problems getting a hold of them though.

Squig hoppers are excellent against demons, flamers less so. If flamers get to shoot at squig hoppers you'll likely be in trouble unless you can give them severe modifiers to hit.

A unit of 6 flamers firing off 21 shots will kill 2.3 squig hoppers if the flamers have moved and are at long range or if they are stand and shooting at long range (bear in mind the -1 for US 1 skirmishers) and 4.6 if the flamers have moved and are at short, or haven't moved and are at long range.

If 5 squig hoppers made it into b2b with 6 flamers the squig hoppers would do 3 wounds (2.96) and the flamers would kill 4 (3.77) back, causing the hopper player to lose combat by 2 (outnumber, 1 more casualty) and likely run away, if he doesn't run away the flamers (still with 5 in b2b) will strike first and kill the unit.

7 squighoppers would do 4 wounds (4.15) and lose 3 (3.15) causing a tied combat. The flamers will then go first next round and do significant dmage to the hoppers.

The point is flamers are more than a match for hoppers and you'd be doing well to get 5 nevermind 7 into combat with them. If you absolutely have to go after flamers with hoppers softening them up is advised.
Ranked units of orc boyz will beat them but you'd have to pass a LD test and take the stand and shoot, I'd be suprised if in most games a ranked unit of boyz will be able to catch them.

The best thing to do against them imo as an orc general is to not go after them, but to make them come to you so they're less accurate and throw fodder unit's at them, only going after them if you are in position to hit them with 2 unit's or when your opponent makes a mistake.

Captain Cortez
23-05-2009, 18:29
Alright since I read through all the pages....

My 3 main armies are Tomb Kings, Orcs, and Ogre Kingdoms. As for playing against Demons. Its ok to whine a bit about Demons, they are a very broken list. Even careless players can be nasty opponents.

Since my main army is Ogres the best thing to use against them is
Leadbelchers (unpredictable but with a little luck very Devastating)
Gorgers (might hold a unit of Demons for 2 turns, you will need it)
Gnoblars better than Goblins, ranks and outnumber is the key, SHARPSTUFF on a hill)
Rhinox Riders(I really don't get why GW cut this unit from Tourneys, a Hydra is cheaper, moves through cover and harder to kill? Anyways Rhinox riders hit very hard on a charge.

theDarkGeneral
24-05-2009, 06:48
Flamers in the Woods? If they're Shooting out, that means they can be seen and thus charged...Chariots (Orc version) are great against them, especially if there's a Hero riding it. Sure, you'll take D6 S(6) Impact Hits from the terrain feature, but you'll be inflicting D6 S(5) +1 Impact Hits on them as well as a few S(5) attacks. Maybe the chariot dies to the Flamers, BUT you've probably greatly reduced their effectiveness.


Beating Daemons is tactics. Yes, the Book has the potential to see stupid Armies, hell I see that from ALL the new Books however. Daemons reliability is what makes them tick, take it away from them, and you have a game. As a Daemon player, here are the units I have to be careful of (threats) just to name a few from each Army...


Beasts of Chaos: Centigors, Minotaurs, Dragon Ogres, Shaggoths

Bretonnians: Grail Knights, Pegasus Knights and Knight Errants...

Chaos Dwarfs: Earthshakers, Bullcentaurs, Blunderbusses

Dark Elves: War Hydra, Bolt Throwers, Black Guard, Executioners, Chariots

Dwarfs: Organ Guns, Hammerers, Slayers, Bolt Throwers

Empire: Popemobile, Steam Tanks, Hellblasters, Outriders, Pistoliers

High Elves: Bolt Throwers, Dragon Princes, White Lions, Lion Chariots, Phoenix Guard

Lizardmen: Temple Guard (w/Slaan), Salamanders, Engine of the Gods, Chameleon Skinks, Kroxigors

Ogre Kingdoms: Gorgers, Scraplaunchers, Rhinox Riders, Yhetees, Maneaters

Orcs n' Goblins: Bolt Throwers, Squig Hoppers, Savage Boar Boyz, Giants

Skaven: Ratling Guns, Jezzails, Globadiers, Warpfire Throwers, Slaves

Tomb Kings: Bone Giants, Tomb Scorpions, Ushabti, Tomb Guard, Skull Catapult

Warriors of Chaos: Knights, Warriors, Chosen, Dragon Ogres, Hellcannon, Chariots

Wood Elves: Treemen, Dryads, Wardancers, Treekin

Vampire Counts: Graveguard, Bloodknights, Black Coach, Black Knights

Dogs of War: Pikemen units, BS (4) Crossbows, Mengil's Manflayers, Cursed Company

Storak
24-05-2009, 07:34
Flamers in the Woods? If they're Shooting out, that means they can be seen and thus charged...Chariots (Orc version) are great against them, especially if there's a Hero riding it. Sure, you'll take D6 S(6) Impact Hits from the terrain feature, but you'll be inflicting D6 S(5) +1 Impact Hits on them as well as a few S(5) attacks. Maybe the chariot dies to the Flamers, BUT you've probably greatly reduced their effectiveness.


did you ever try this "tactic"?

on average, the chariot will suffer 3.9 wounds from stand and shoot and the impact hits in terrain. that will kill it most likely.

the chariot is dead anyway, because it will suffer more impact hits when it tries to leave the wood again. (that is for the unlikely event that it will survive the fight against the flamers.

the impact hits from the chariot will do a total of 2 wounds, killing a single flamer.

the tactic is similar to the charge with the hoppers: even when perfectly executed, it will only do some damage to the flamers and end with total destruction of the orcish troops.
the orcs sacrifice similar point values, to keep the flamers occupied for a turn.

tactics is about using the right troops at the right time. the problem with orcs and daemons is, that the best orcish troops at the right time will still lose badly...

EvC
24-05-2009, 12:44
Yeah, chariot vs Flamers in difficult terrain = baaad idea. I have a hard time dealing with them with any race, usually I just put massive screens in front of them (Like 20 Gnoblars wide), or try and magic missile them. If I don't have those options, then I just take the hits and hope that I can survive them. Last round of shooting from a unit of Flamers saw 5 of the buggers annihilate a whole unit of Chaos Ogres. It was funny that my opponent was stressing over stopping getting the Ogres into the flank of his Flesh Hounds, so he zoomed over some Screamers to get in their way, and moved the Flamers down so that the overrun would hit them instead... but come shooting phase BWOOOSH. Who needs tactics eh? :D

Shamfrit
24-05-2009, 12:57
The best way to mitigate Flamer damage is to tactical retreat away from them, force them into long range from their woods, reducing their accuracy to 50%+ and hope that the Daemon player will see his 210 point unit doing nothing for the rest of the game or force him to play his hand and advance out of the woods.

Do this with skirmishers covering your hide if you're X armies, or things with -1 to shoot (The Mark of Nurgle, for example,) and the Flamers are hitting on 5's/6's. Obviously, this requires you to not be retreating straight into the rest of his army, but it's just an idea.

EvC
24-05-2009, 14:26
Yep indeedy. However they can earn their points back with just one decent turn's shooting, which makes them especially hard to deal with.

dsw1
24-05-2009, 14:59
Yep indeedy. However they can earn their points back with just one decent turn's shooting, which makes them especially hard to deal with.

I wish my flamers did this when I used them, I've also never seen my opponents flamers do anything like that either.

Screamers on the other hand, I've had 10 screamers take out blood knights fully decked out along with the vampire in said unit, and in the same game killing many a skeleton + grave guard. My screamers have taken down some of the toughest opponents and yet no-one on warseer even rates them as a threat :wtf: (apart from me, which I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread).

Anyway I have never seen a person's unit of flamers get back all their points in 1 shooting phase, that is a VERY hard thing to accomplish, Maybe over the course of the game yes, but in 1 turn? Saying this, it is possible, yet it is possible for any (moderately sized) shooting unit to make it's points back in a single shooting phase. Eg, Razordons could take down a thirster, 10 handgunners could take down 2 blood knights, 10 skinks could take down a warmammoth :p. etc etc.

Just because it CAN make it's points back, that doesn't mean it is overly powered. You pay 35pts for 1 model, that model had bloody well make it's points back over the game.

fubukii
24-05-2009, 16:43
I wish my flamers did this when I used them, I've also never seen my opponents flamers do anything like that either.

Screamers on the other hand, I've had 10 screamers take out blood knights fully decked out along with the vampire in said unit, and in the same game killing many a skeleton + grave guard. My screamers have taken down some of the toughest opponents and yet no-one on warseer even rates them as a threat :wtf: (apart from me, which I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread).

Anyway I have never seen a person's unit of flamers get back all their points in 1 shooting phase, that is a VERY hard thing to accomplish, Maybe over the course of the game yes, but in 1 turn? Saying this, it is possible, yet it is possible for any (moderately sized) shooting unit to make it's points back in a single shooting phase. Eg, Razordons could take down a thirster, 10 handgunners could take down 2 blood knights, 10 skinks could take down a warmammoth :p. etc etc.

Just because it CAN make it's points back, that doesn't mean it is overly powered. You pay 35pts for 1 model, that model had bloody well make it's points back over the game.

hogwash flamers always do at least 12-20 wounds on toughness 4 troops. so says warseer :)

i dont know what ppl are doing vs flamers, but at long range they will need 4s, if thye had to move and are at long range they need 5s. the only time i see flamers getting overly effective is if they didnt move you moved into short range of them, and then they rolled good for thier total number of shots. dont go near thier terrain make them move to get shots, if they are hitting on 5s most of the time they wont be as effective.

Shamfrit
24-05-2009, 17:02
Precisely Fubukii.

The majority of people seem to be convinced that the only way to get to flamers is to march right up to them and take the handing of backside that will inevitably follow. Of course flaming daemons of the Warp whose fires come alive as manifestations of your darkest fears (which then proceed to eat you) will hurt if you get near them.

It's a bit like whining that Bloodletters are too good in combat - well, ermm, duh? I remember when I played Daemons my opponent was not impressed that his 15 strong Ghoul unit were wiped out in one round of shooting, and that flamers were far too strong...what he forgot to mention was the fact he'd let me march them right up to his army, plant them to his flank in the open and then open fire...

I rolled excellently of course, but he had a Varghulf, Coach, 2 Flying Vampires and a number of options to deal with them - instead he ignored them...a mistake many players make. If you take Flamers down a peg or two in the first two turns they won't ever get a chance to bring their flamers to bare against you.

fubukii
24-05-2009, 17:11
yea, i try to concentrate my magic at them quickly, or ranged weapons if they are outside of terrain. Works pretty good with my armies.

EvC
24-05-2009, 17:16
What I actually said: "Flamers are good at shooting and hard to deal with."

What people read my post as saying: "flamers always do at least 12-20 wounds on toughness 4 troops." and "Flamers are overpowered".

Once again, brilliant contributions to the thread there, guys. At least the last post was giving suggestions on dealing with them (shoot them, as ever), much better :)

Shamfrit
24-05-2009, 17:20
For a unit to get their points back in a single turn of shooting EvC, they've have to do that sort of damage against most things in order to balance the books. On the same merit, a unit of Night Runners with Slings would only have to kill 6-8 standard infantry models or two cavalry models to make their points back, and Night Runners are core, much much much much cheaper, and let's not forget - can come in the hundreds.

So are Night Runners better than Flamers?

GuyLeCheval
24-05-2009, 17:22
9+ warp lighting and jezzails are good against flamers...

Crower
24-05-2009, 17:26
but but... how can you run away from the UBBER LONG RANGE of the flammers!!! its imposible!! they ll be hittting you at 3+ near always!! also, deal with them?! no way m8, they have STRG 5 attacks ! WS 2 , no statick CR, and only a 5+ward save but.. Strg 5!!

I am not saying that flammers are not strong.. indeed, they are, and a lot. But fubukii and shamfrit are rigth.. they ll not wipe your entire army in half a turn blinded eyes.. Unless you let them hit you at 3+, but hey, then, you deserve to loose.

EvC, you said "However they can earn their points back with just one decent turn's shooting". Thats what they were replyng at.. not "Flamers are good at shooting and hard to deal with." .. a unit of flamers is worth 210 points.. so they can kill 210 worth of points unit with just one decent turns shooting.. ...

They can not. Unless A) You did something EXTRMELY WRONG (So, u deserve to lose..) B) The daemon player had some EXTREME dice rolls (and well.. ANY unit in the game can be overpowered with EXTREME dice rolls on his side..)

EvC
24-05-2009, 17:36
Of course Flamers can earn their points in a single round's shooting. Many things in the game can, Skinks with blowpipes, cannons, even Night Runners with Slings. Does that alone seal their fate as the most broken thing in warhammer? Of course not, and I didn't make any such suggestion. Anyone trying to suggest that I did, is a complete *****. Don't rush to form a queue now guys. My point, which you all missed in your bizarre kneejerk rushes to defend the poor browbeaten Flamers, was that you can spend all game mitigating their effects, hiding good targets from them while throwing chariots into the woods at them (Or maybe not ;) ), but if the Daemon player does well, he can make that unit earn its keep in just one turn's shooting. Yes, it might be at close range. It might be at a large target. It might be at something with regeneration- well done Daemon player in that case. The point- you can't take your eye off the ball with Flamers for even one turn, or it will cost you dearly.

Quite why a statement of these FACTS riles you guys up so much, and immediately gets you all defensive, and making up umpteen Straw men (apparently I also had a rant about Flamers being S5 and whined that they will kill half an army in one go... at this rate pretty soon you guys are going to be telling me I said that Flamers killed JFK).

I'll say it again: Flamers can do a lot of damage! Now you can either keep trying to shoot me down (Heh, how fitting that I might be shot down by a bunch of Flamers myself), or ignore me, or keep on making good suggestions on what to do about it. I'd choose the third option, but the second option works as well. The first option is the "complete *****" option, however. My expectations are not high.

Tae
24-05-2009, 17:42
at this rate pretty soon you guys are going to be telling me I said that Flamers killed JFK).


The grassy knowl sounds perfectly Tzeentchian.

fubukii
24-05-2009, 17:47
i my statement wasnt really directed at you evc(i just kinda threw the 12 out there), and i see you as a respectable player whose opinions are normally very good and i agree with you that flamers are strong, i will admit thier power. Just some other players/posters on this forum make it seem like flamers reliable and always destroy whole armies and flanks by themselves, and are a auto i win button, is what i disagree with ( i play several armies not just doc). are flamers a major threat for my de and my skaven? you bet, i just do my best to deal with them, be it magic missles, or keeping them on the move, or shooting them back, or getting my shades in combat with them (yes flamers move slighty faster but i will win in combat, and most doc players get to cocky with thier flamers.)

units with 1+ saves are also very good at dealing with flamers, the shooting bounces right off. howler wind is a good counter as well ( and will at the very least make the daemon player burn pd) Lately ive been using my shades to rebid myself of enemy flamers, str 5 ws5 hatred atks seem to do the trick well :)

EvC
24-05-2009, 17:59
Excellent, great stuff. I love the thinking outside the box there, Shades to take out Flamers in combat. I'd be a bit weary of that myself since you'd never kill the whole unit in one go and then the Flamers strike first next turn and you don't have hatred, but the WS5 could see you through :)

Ultimo ninja
24-05-2009, 18:10
Because of DOC, ive decided to take 2 DOW cannons in my WOC army. Because the demons are broken, you have to do ANYTHING you can within the rules if you want a fighting chance. I also field a chaos lord on dragon, knights, warriors, and hounds, maruaders, and mar. horse to soak up attacks. I mark almost everything slaanesh to negate the fear demons cause. When I choose combats with them, I gun for the heralds and take them down hard. Without heralds, demon units arent so tough.

dsw1
24-05-2009, 18:21
It's funny, I said on page two how to deal with flamers and yet no-one listened :cries: I gave virtually the same answer as Shamfrit (Shoot them rather than charge them).

But yeah, Flamers aren't so tough, they can deal out damage but as others have said, They have Ws2 and a 5+ ward (not even mentioning their lack off Combat res). Funny that I said this again on page two as well :cries:.

I think I maybe invisible to people on warseer :p

Shamfrit
24-05-2009, 18:21
Don't get me wrong, I know Flamers are horrifying, I know, but I've given up the 'we're all going to die and they're unbeatable' angle and tried to constructively combat one of the key threats in the Daemons of Chaos Army Book. I no longer have any trouble with them, no more so than a unit of Waywatchers in cover taking out my Chaos Knights (quelle horreur!) and certainly no more than a unit of Black Guard surviving 3 turns of being charged in the front, both sides and rear. (They were only clanrats, but still).

I wasn't even replying in response to you EvC, it was to the general ideas in (whatever his name was's) thread. People behold Flamers as some sort of divine blitzreig, unstoppable, unquenchable, eternal...if you fear something so much it will always seem far more deadly than it otherwise is. Flamers CAN destroy swathes of your army, and double Flamers is another issue altogether, but a single unit can be dealt with, mitigated, ignored, and I'd go as far as saying every army has a way of dealing or slowing them down enough. Sustained fire works against anything, anything at all. Even a 0+ save, 2+ ward triple Regen Character of Doom will drop to Small Arms fire.

More Terminators die in 40k to pistols and swords (the rusty kind) than to Death Cannons and Uber guns - remember that game we had where my two wound sorceror lord died to your Seaguard Unit Champion? Should we therefore vilify unit champions just because they performed beyond all expectation? No, we shouldn't.

I'm not defending the Flamers, or the book, but I am defending the overt over reaction people have to them. I've said it before in a thousand other threads and I've no blind idea why I'm being drawn in to say it once again. Open your eyes, (this is at the wider community, not you in particular, or anyone else) take a step back, work around the unit, how it affects you, and take steps to doing something about it. If you're playing in an environment where Flying Circus Uber Magic Tzeentch is a common army list, then you've placed yourself in that environment; you can change that, sod it - I'll stick with adapt or die - it saves my wrists for my Criminology Exam, which I should be revising for, but I just can't tear myself away!

(That, and the main point of the exam is now my signature :D)

fubukii
24-05-2009, 18:54
yea evc it works out fairly well unless the daemon player gets a lucky hitting roll ( a pretty lucky one id say)

In my last game i had 2 units of 9 shades, one had a assassin.

eventually i ended up getting a charge on some of his flamers ( he had 6 with no champion at start of game) with 9 shades ( he kept shooting my warriors/dr/black guard instead of my skirmishing shades, i march blocked them with harpies who died to a flickering flame later on :(.)

they ended up doing the trick lost a few shades though. fear the shades! :D

Tae
24-05-2009, 19:08
Last time I played Flamers I managed to charge them with a buffed Warshrine, the buff being +1T. Flamers wounding on 6's suddenly makes them not quite so scarey (that and my opponent ran 2 units of 4 and I managed to destroy the other unit earlier thanks to a couple of lucking FFoTs).

Although that's obviously not much use in terms of general strategies as it's hardly going to be that applicable. Personally I favour magicing them to death rather than shooting/cc (though if my warriors get in, those flamers are dead), however this obviously has it's own downsides, especially if it's a Tzeentch heavy DoC list.

Storak
24-05-2009, 19:38
The best way to mitigate Flamer damage is to tactical retreat away from them, force them into long range from their woods, reducing their accuracy to 50%+ and hope that the Daemon player will see his 210 point unit doing nothing for the rest of the game or force him to play his hand and advance out of the woods.

tactical retreat my foot troops away from mobile flamers? pretty insane.


hogwash flamers always do at least 12-20 wounds on toughness 4 troops. so says warseer :)

i dont know what ppl are doing vs flamers, but at long range they will need 4s, if thye had to move and are at long range they need 5s. the only time i see flamers getting overly effective is if they didnt move you moved into short range of them, and then they rolled good for thier total number of shots. dont go near thier terrain make them move to get shots, if they are hitting on 5s most of the time they wont be as effective.

yes, and because my opponent moved his two units of flamers into terrain, i have to avoid moving my troops onto the table. very good advice.


They can not. Unless A) You did something EXTRMELY WRONG (So, u deserve to lose..) B) The daemon player had some EXTREME dice rolls (and well.. ANY unit in the game can be overpowered with EXTREME dice rolls on his side..)

a giant would be an obvious example. flamers have the power to force a panic test on nearly every unit. it is not that hard for them, to get score 150-200 points in a turn of shooting.

i asked a simple question: how shall O&G deal with them. i am not really happy with the answers i received so far.

fubukii
24-05-2009, 19:42
orcs cant deal with alot of things, not just flamers :)

since the orc list lacks skirmishers or reliable shooting/magic, id say a wyvern warboss or msu/screening tactics are your best bet.



ill throw this at you, how does orcs and goblins deal with shades? or carin wraiths?

PeG
24-05-2009, 19:43
1) shoot them, as always with appropriate target priority (flamers, characters, hounds etc depending on your weaknesses.)
2) kill characters whenever possible even if it costs you more points than you kill it will be worth it. You really need to kill his characters (if you can shoot them this is usually a good idea)
3) kill large horror units so they cant cast bolt of change, melee small horror units (flickering fire ones) and ignore the others

Nuada
24-05-2009, 19:45
i asked a simple question: how shall O&G deal with them. i am not really happy with the answers i received so far.

I'm not a very good O&G player, but i'd go magic heavy.

Line up a unit with ranks so the flamers are closest, cast waaagh............ all your units move 2d6" to the closest enemy in LoS. The flamers can't stand and fire, they can only hold. You don't need to test for any fear tests. You get ASF. You reroll all your misses in combat.

With a hard hitter like 6 wide savage orcs with additional choppas, you might be ok (4 attacks str5, and 15 attacks str4, all rerolls) When i fight against DoC with O&G i take chariots and pump wagons instead of war machines

Kevlar
24-05-2009, 20:51
I'm not a very good O&G player, but i'd go magic heavy.

Line up a unit with ranks so the flamers are closest, cast waaagh............ all your units move 2d6" to the closest enemy in LoS. The flamers can't stand and fire, they can only hold. You don't need to test for any fear tests. You get ASF. You reroll all your misses in combat.

With a hard hitter like 6 wide savage orcs with additional choppas, you might be ok (4 attacks str5, and 15 attacks str4, all rerolls) When i fight against DoC with O&G i take chariots and pump wagons instead of war machines

Yeah whats so hard about using savage orcs? Maybe even boar boyz? If you can get the charge off from under half range they can't even stand and shoot...

Even if they do stand and shoot you aren't going to panic, as long as you have a champion and a couple boar boyz left they should kick the flamers butts.

david404
24-05-2009, 21:04
In all my battels i use a unit of
10 grail knights with full commend and banner of defence
general armed with holy icon
BSB with war banner and virtue of duty

this unit normaly return more then the points I needed to pay

fubukii
24-05-2009, 22:26
yea that is a pretty mean unit, alot of static cr in that unit and its very hitty.

+8 cr before any swings :( makes most of my armies very sad, especially on 2+ save knights with ward saves

Storak
25-05-2009, 06:53
Yeah whats so hard about using savage orcs? Maybe even boar boyz? If you can get the charge off from under half range they can't even stand and shoot...

Even if they do stand and shoot you aren't going to panic, as long as you have a champion and a couple boar boyz left they should kick the flamers butts.

there are several problems with your scenario. if the boars are at under half range, the flamers got a shot of last turn. 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3 dead.

so you started with a big unit. that is a problem, as such a unit is a prime target (mostly for spells) in an army, that benefits the most from not having prime targets.


Line up a unit with ranks so the flamers are closest, cast waaagh............ all your units move 2d6" to the closest enemy in LoS. The flamers can't stand and fire, they can only hold. You don't need to test for any fear tests. You get ASF. You reroll all your misses in combat.

With a hard hitter like 6 wide savage orcs with additional choppas, you might be ok (4 attacks str5, and 15 attacks str4, all rerolls) When i fight against DoC with O&G i take chariots and pump wagons instead of war machines

depending on a movement spell is a pretty random tactic as well.

both approaches require a ranked unit charging into terrain. even if the unit wins, it will quite often not return to battle.

EvC
25-05-2009, 14:49
I like the Waaaagh! idea as well, although of course you're more likely to blow off your Shaman's head than actually succeed with this idea. It also involves moving the unit into the Flamer's short range zone (which, as we all know, makes you an idiot), and if you fail to cast the spell or roll too short, then your plan will go up in flames. Haha, in flames, I'm a genius.

W0lf
25-05-2009, 15:06
Im going to second the argument you definatly should shoot them rather then charge them.

They are M6 skirmisher for christ sake. The only thing your ganna get into combat with them vs any competant general is other skirmishers/flyers and they are easily the best H2H skirmishers and any flyer harder is likey 3x the cost.

The only problem is that in terrain (which they should be) they are -2 to hit, T4 with 5+ wards and 2 wounds. They are ridiculously resiliant to everything that roles to hit and even then they are pretty hard. This means magic missiles are your 'best' counter but even then.

Ive only faced flamers once (2x6) and i raised zombies in front of one unit then vanhels and pinned them whilst a vargulf luckily killed the other unit over like 4 turns of combat (and after dieing 3 times over)

EvC
25-05-2009, 15:45
Wow, they did 12 wounds to the Varghulf in combat?! I guess I shouldn't be surprised since they have flaming attacks that negate the regen...

W0lf
25-05-2009, 16:24
Shoot, Stand and shoot, then combat attacks.

MarcoPollo
25-05-2009, 16:28
Skirmisher that can't flee. That is a great target for any heavy cav. If screened properly you heavy cav will only need to take one round of shooting to hit them. This can give you the opportunity to line up with the skirmishers the way you want. And if you can combo charge them, then only one unit will have to take shots.

I love chewing up ItP skrmishers.

theDarkGeneral
25-05-2009, 16:43
Yes, I have sent my Chariots into Flamers, and usually with great results! Sometimes they get the Stand & Shoot, but that often means -2 to hit me, and then wounding on 5s+, and I'm saving on 4s+...I'll take the odds! Cold One Chariots are quite brutal on them, as WS(5) combined with Hatred really does take them down quickly, and often coupled with some Unit Strength they poof back to the Dark Realm.

If people are loosing to noobs with Daemon Armies, even a tooled out Daemon list, then perhaps you're just not playing as well as you feel/think. Daemons are a forgiving Army, but not an Auto win button...Vampire Counts are much closer to that, and still noobs will loose with them.

And, not every Army is a good match for others. There are obvious weaknesses that some Armies have towards another. Orcs 'n Goblins have problems with Daemons and Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings...



Seriously, the easiest way to beat the Daemons is kill off the Heralds and/or Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince. Takes out a lot of Points and makes the Daemon units not half as good without them. Executioners, Grave Guard, and Tomb Guard have Killing Blowed my Herald (BSB) of Nurgle plenty of times, and my Herald of Khorne (on Juggy) as well!

W0lf
25-05-2009, 16:48
Skirmisher that can't flee. That is a great target for any heavy cav.

Are you serious?

I challenge you to catch my M6 skirmishers when they are playing ring around the woods and i have 3 units of flesh hounds and a bloodthirster (who incidently is best sent against said unit)

Shamfrit
25-05-2009, 17:12
March block them with cheap throwaway units until your heavy cavalry arrives...

If they shoot the screens away, you're free to charge. If they don't, they're forced to move and shoot long at the Heavy cavalry - win win?

MarcoPollo
25-05-2009, 17:12
Are you serious?

I challenge you to catch my M6 skirmishers when they are playing ring around the woods and i have 3 units of flesh hounds and a bloodthirster (who incidently is best sent against said unit)

I'll take that challenge any day. All I have to do is catch one with enough hitting power to either pop them or tie them up.

And if they are playing hide and seek with the woods, then I can limit the shooting targets by my own positioning.

Run your thirster where you can before I get him too.

EvC
25-05-2009, 17:26
Yes, I have sent my Chariots into Flamers, and usually with great results! Sometimes they get the Stand & Shoot, but that often means -2 to hit me, and then wounding on 5s+, and I'm saving on 4s+...I'll take the odds!

Do you also ignore the D6 S6 hits your chariot takes for going in the woods?


Seriously, the easiest way to beat the Daemons is kill off the Heralds and/or Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince. Takes out a lot of Points and makes the Daemon units not half as good without them. Executioners, Grave Guard, and Tomb Guard have Killing Blowed my Herald (BSB) of Nurgle plenty of times, and my Herald of Khorne (on Juggy) as well!

I always find it amusing that "kill the enemy characters" is considered especially good advice against Daemons. That's what any and all players should be doing against any and all opponents, Daemons or otherwise :D

I guess the question is how far should players be willing to go to get these characters? Last game vs Daemons I sacrificed my scroll caddy to allow my Lord to have a shot at killing his Jugger BSB the next turn (Funnily enough neither of us rolled a KB for three turns until he finally popped- all it took was the dead Sorcerer, a 300 point Lord, 250 point flanking chariot BSB for +2CR and a 250 point unit of Knights, hehe). The fact Heralds can refuse a challenge and still pass on Locus benefits is a real pain as well, especially for Warriors.

(I'm also reminded of a great 1500 point tournament game against Daemons where on turn 2 I killed both the Sundering BSB and the Nurgle general. I thought the game was mine, but then there was still 15 Flesh Hounds to smash everything else of mine apart, d'oh. Sometimes just killing the characters isn't enough, when there's a powerful enough army backing it up)

Draconian77
25-05-2009, 17:36
Do you guys play on forest boards or something?
How many woods can the Flamers hide in?

In most of my games we have 1-2 forests on a 6x4 board, how is it possible that the Flamers can always be in a forest and always be within range of something?

I have fought Flamers a few times now, and only about 50% of the time has a wood been in an ideal position for them to camp in, sometimes they are too far back to make an impact if they want the protection of cover, sometimes something nasty is lurking in the trees that they want to camp in.

Out of cover they are much easier to catch and deal with, inside cover you should basically ignore them or use screens.

The best way to stop Flesh Hounds is to throw something Unbreakable/Stubborn+ITP in front of them leaving little choice but to charge only to flank them with cheap ranked units or hard hitting units like Chariots.

Generally you will have more units than the DoC army so such plans are easy enough to carry out.

Unfortunately not all books have the options that I think you need to fight the DoC on a (semi~)fair footing.

theDarkGeneral
25-05-2009, 17:39
Yes, I gladly take the D6 S(6) impact hits...average is 3 to 4 and still wounding on 3's+ and still a chance for the 6+ Armor Save. Flamers die fast to such units.


And no, killing enemy Characters isn't always the best course of action, especially in Close Combat, where killing of Rank & File troops will often be easier and produce more Combat Res. The dice gods are fickle, so things happen in games. Not being able to out punch Daemons with Chaos Warriors sounds like dice. I constantly get chopped up in Close Combat by them with my Rank & File troops. Flesh Hounds are great, 15 models in a 1,500pt game is ridiculous...and even Flesh Hounds die to Static Combat Res...bait and Flee, counter charge, fight one model, they die.


Deployment is a huge part of the game, if you deploy poorly against a tough Daemon Army, you're going to hate the game. Daemons are by far not unbeatable, but at the Tournaments, a lot of good/great players are using them, which makes them even better. Not all Daemon Armies do well at the Tournament scene...

Shamfrit
25-05-2009, 17:40
And to Storak; you want to do the above suggestion with Greenskins?

71 points nets you 5 fast cavalry to screen your heavier units from the Flamers, or to force them to move and shoot long. 60 if you truly keep them as screens without musician and spears.

Savage Orc Boyz can get over the board and should they catch and or/combo with the screen, deal with the flamers.

Set up Snotling Screens if you have to at 8 inches from your unit, they can still shoot, but will always be long.

Ram bare bones goblin units ahead of an Orc line, let them absorb the shots, using the Checkerboard tactic to keep them in check and crush any advancing troops - with the general at the centre of the line fear should be mitigated.

Run double Squig Herds with screens directly at the flamers, watch him try and shoot you now!

Mass small arms fire from Night Goblin Archers, heck, a Doom Diver on the unit will pop a flamer with average rolls!

Magic wise, Brain Bursta, Gork'll Fix It and Foot and Hand of Gork to a lesser extent from the Little Waaagh! can cause some flumoxxing to Flamers. Hand especially, if you get it off (which, let's face it, you won't, but hey) to move screens or hunter units into place.

Big Waaagh, again, is very useful for rushing forwards and magic missiling Flamers. Not as useful, oddly, but still.

You're no doubt going to complain about all out magic but it's an approach that'll work.

Goblin characters charging from units (so the unit takes the Stand and Shoot instead, according to the new FAQ) with STR5 attacks and the Tricksy trinket would work a treat - you might lose the goblin in subsequent rounds of combat but still. One goblin for a unit of flamers? Easy trade.

Storak
25-05-2009, 19:01
Mass small arms fire from Night Goblin Archers, heck, a Doom Diver on the unit will pop a flamer with average rolls!

no. on average, the doomdiver will do 1.5 wounds. and that is in those 1 in 3 cases, in which he will hit that skirmisher unit. (a pretty bad target)

gobbo archers into woods? against skirmishers? typically you will need 7s to hit. every 100 shots will kill a flamer...


Goblin characters charging from units (so the unit takes the Stand and Shoot instead, according to the new FAQ) with STR5 attacks and the Tricksy trinket would work a treat - you might lose the goblin in subsequent rounds of combat but still. One goblin for a unit of flamers? Easy trade.

another rather bizarre tactic.
the gobbo will cause slightly more than a single wound. he will get 4-6 S5 return attacks. and he is outnumbered...
i would expect him to lose the combat and to autobreak. but if he survives, the flamers will strike first in their turn...

Shamfrit
25-05-2009, 19:10
Then play Empire, Brettonians or High Elves or Wood Elves, whip out Lore of Life and say good game?

I dunno, was only trying to help - I think we all know Greenskins are very weak at the minute, but what can you do?

Lijacote
25-05-2009, 19:15
what can you do?

Bemoan the loss of life and the meaninglessness of war...

I thought the screening idea sounded pretty good.