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Krom The Eternal
09-05-2009, 06:03
which is best im starting an Empire army and so far i have 16 spearmen and 17 handgunners im thinking of buying a general and im not sure of the best way to equip him i was thinking one on horse with armour and lance with sheild then the on foot character having armour and a brace of pistols i think a hero or general fighting off enemies with dual pistols would be awesome any tips of adive on empire in general? PS... I dont want a steam tank or great swords

ICEMANQ
09-05-2009, 06:06
Use the general pack to make a general and a BSB on foot. One can argue quite convincingly that empire need a BSB. Pistoliers are awesome, very powerful.

mikepm07
09-05-2009, 09:13
I'd only take a BSB if I was taking Greatswords. Other than that you can leave it at home as a combination of warrior priests/wizards will serve you better.

sroblin
09-05-2009, 13:39
Pistoliers and Outriders are both great, but Pistoliers fulfill a more unique role- fast cavalry that run forth to slow down enemy formations and riddle the units he's trying to hide behind his front line with bullets. The Outriders are basically handgunners that can move quickly. They do that very well and are good for their points, but if you already have handgunners, they're basically giving more of what you already have.

Some more general advice: get at least one more infantry block, preferrably 2, and make sure the core infantry is 25 strong (at a bare minimum, 20 strong.) Units of 5-6 Knights also make good supporting units for the army. You already have some handgunners, try acquiring a few extra models so you can make 2 units of 10, and throw in a couple warmachines so that you can dish out additional damage at range (the Empire really needs to soften up enemies at a distance if you want to win.)

The detachment rule is kind of fun, especially if you fight lots of infantry heavy armies; if you get a Free Company box, you can easily make a few small detachments of 5-10 archers or Free Company that can make counter charges to deny enemies their rank bonus or work as screening or baiting units against enemy charges.

Tarliyn
09-05-2009, 14:36
The detachment rule is kind of fun, especially if you fight lots of infantry heavy armies; if you get a Free Company box, you can easily make a few small detachments of 5-10 archers or Free Company that can make counter charges to deny enemies their rank bonus or work as screening or baiting units against enemy charges.

detachment rule =

most overrated rule in Warhammer

it will work the first few games against opponents who haven't seen it but it is very easily counterable and those detachments (esp free company) often give away just as much combat resloution as they net

since I dropped my detachments my empire army serves me much better now since I have more points for knights and ranged

this does make me sad by the way as I have 60 free company that go largely unused ( I bought enough to make a unit of 25-30 and detachments for all my states troops)

if you find it works by all means enlighten me I would love to be wrong about this and be able to use the rule which on paper sounds awesome and is really very very fluffy

please...anybody? lol :cries:

Oh and umm go with pistoliers they are great fun to use, the fact that outriders are move and shoot really limits them...

the pistoliers require some finesse so if you don't ge the hang of them right away keep trying, but they make excellent march blockers and harassers...you can also use them to warmachine hunt if you need too

Ender101
09-05-2009, 19:15
Two members of my gaming group regularly play empire. Pistoliers are my personal preference, they're fast cavalry, so you can march and shoot, are excellent march blockers and can run away and regroup, and then fire the next turn. Another perk is pistols never suffer -1 for long range or moving and shooting, but your boys have Average BS and multiple shots, so you'll still be needing decently high rolls.

Outriders are also an interesting choice. They pump out a ton of fire at a better than average BS and are excellent for stand and shoot. They're mobility and fast cavalry status seems wasted with the rule Move or Shoot. But they're still a viable choice if you want to use them to support your infantry hold the the line. Any enemy with low or medium toughness will dread these units. (One of the before mentioned gamers in my group runs two units of Outriders to force the opponent to dance around).

As for the general, watching my friend's lists and looking into them myself (I've almost started empire twice) the build you use for your characters is decided by the way you play. A BSB is good for empire, it adds to the static combat resolution (which is your friend) and adds some killing power to the unit. Templar Grandmasters are also a good choice for your general, he's very killing with the same stats as a Bretonnian lord and with laurels of victory he can be devastating. Generals of the Empire can take the terror causing griffon, and have access to the dangerous Rune Fang.

Magic characters should also be considered, Warrior Priests are amazing for their points, and Empire Wizards have access to any lore in the rulebook.

Empire is versatile, my advice would be to take advantage of it. I hope this was helpful.

Krom The Eternal
09-05-2009, 21:15
Ok so tell me what you guys think of this i was thinking of taking 2 units of 25 spearmen and 4 units of 10 hand gunners then 2 units of 5 pistoliers plus my characters
My strategy for this army would be to deploy my 2 units of spearmen in the center of my deployment zone then put 2 units of handgunners on each side to try to funnel the enemy to my spearmen who will recieve the 2nd row of attacking for defence and the enemy will be weakened by the time they get to the spearmen by the gunfire my characters will float infront of the spearmen but still within firing range of the handgunners then ill use the pistoliers to support the hand gunner units and keep the enemy from flanking or ill use them to bait the enemy into my funnel O' death does this tactic seem viable if not why so? this is also what i have sofar for troops
59x spearmen
59x hand gunners
i have 4 wizards
and enough stuff to make 6 heros
and ive got one cannon /mortar
i wanna buy 2 boxes of pistoliers plus the empire general box
any recomendations? or do i have the right idea on playing empire?

Keller
11-05-2009, 13:42
Ok so tell me what you guys think of this i was thinking of taking 2 units of 25 spearmen and 4 units of 10 hand gunners then 2 units of 5 pistoliers plus my characters
My strategy for this army would be to deploy my 2 units of spearmen in the center of my deployment zone then put 2 units of handgunners on each side to try to funnel the enemy to my spearmen who will recieve the 2nd row of attacking for defence and the enemy will be weakened by the time they get to the spearmen by the gunfire my characters will float infront of the spearmen but still within firing range of the handgunners then ill use the pistoliers to support the hand gunner units and keep the enemy from flanking or ill use them to bait the enemy into my funnel O' death does this tactic seem viable if not why so? this is also what i have sofar for troops
59x spearmen
59x hand gunners
i have 4 wizards
and enough stuff to make 6 heros
and ive got one cannon /mortar
i wanna buy 2 boxes of pistoliers plus the empire general box
any recomendations? or do i have the right idea on playing empire?

I would reccomend fewer handgunners. I generally use 1 unit of 10-12 per 1000 points. Empire often suffers from spacial constraints, having to deploy in a long battle line to maximize their effectiveness. Stringing out 10 gunners in a line so they can all fire can be hard to fit all of your units in; especailly if you now have 40 men wide needing to deploy. Deploying in more than 1 rank wastes shot-potential, unless you are on a hill, so I seldom recommend that. Actually, this is one nice perk of Outriders; they can fit 15 shots in the space of 6 handgunners, helping to save up space.

As for pistoliers vs outriders, they are very different units. Of the two, I prefer Pistoliers for a standard game, but Outriders can be very useful with certain scenarios.

Pistoliers are used to run near the enemy, harass them with gunfire (2 shots per model) and march block. Remember, pistols never suffer long-range or movement penalties, so you should always be hitting on 4 or 5+. They can dish out some good damage while slowing the enemy down, giving you more time to pummel them with handguns, artillery, or just set up favorable position with your infantry. While not worthless in combat, the pistoliers should avoid it, since they are much better off shooting. Aside from riding up and blasting units, Pistoliers are best suited of and Empire unit for traditional fast-cavalry roles, such as redirecting, charge-baiting, and flank support.

Outriders are a mobile handgunner unit. They preform the same role as handgunners, but are a bit more flexible. Being move-or-fire, you have to set them up, then fire, so you can't expect to run them throughout a game; just run to a good position on turn 1, then set up to blast away the rest of the game.
Outriders do have 2 distinct advantages over handgunners. They take up less space on the table, so you won't have to clog up your lines as much, while providing excellent firepower. Also, since they are Fast-Cav, they have 360-degree LoS, meaning they can shoot at targets that might skirt out of your forward arc, which would force gunners to turn to face, thus not be able to fire. It is very hard to avoid the devestating vollies of Outriders when they are used correctly.
Of course, the downside is that Outriders are expensive and die rather easily, being T3 5+ save. And worse yet, every casualty you take is -3 shots, making the unit less survivable and a danger to panic nearby friendlies.

Darkmaw
11-05-2009, 14:11
One more thing....Outrider champions are the only way to get a BS5 with a Hochland Long rifle. Essentially you are looking at 4+ (long range and -1 for snipe) to hit an enemy character/champion of choice.

Nowadays there are plenty of these high value targets around....Eg the Black Guard Champion carrying the Ring of Hotek.

sroblin
12-05-2009, 00:49
59x spearmen
59x hand gunners
i have 4 wizards
and enough stuff to make 6 heros
and ive got one cannon /mortar
i wanna buy 2 boxes of pistoliers plus the empire general box
any recomendations? or do i have the right idea on playing empire?

Keller is right, there is no way you can effectivley use 60 handgunners on the field. They are a great unit, but their simply is a limited amount of useful space to fit ranged units on a warhammer battlefield. Two units of 10 is quite handy, maybe you could squeeze in up to 30. But 60 is just impractical. One way of upgrading the firepower of a handgunner unit without taking up more space is giving them a marksman champion with a repeater handgun- basically gives you an extra 2 shots at average BS. Outriders are also a way to cram more firepower in a smaller amount of space (and redeply for better fire positions.) But a 60 man firing line is a bit impractical.

You could try splitting some of your handgunners into 5 man detachments of your infantry blocks so they can stand and shoot when the spearmen are charged. It is isn't tremendously effective, but Empire infantry can use all the help they can get.

PapaSmurf
12-05-2009, 17:40
Use swordsmen instead of spearmen, better WS, better AS for only 1 pt

I also like pistoliers same range as outriders and can shoot every turn

detachments should be run in 3x3 blocks, protects them from enemy charges while still allowing them to do their counter charge and cancel ranks (Its US not frontage)

Detachments are like anything else you have to use them in the right situations

Good luck!

PapaSmurf

Lord Dan
12-05-2009, 18:27
Pistoliers are a reliable choice. Outriders are rather conditional in that they perform exceedingly well under specific circumstances (if you've been stationary, if the target is low T, if he moves into your firing arc, etc.). They perform very different roles, though both are really good units.

Pistoliers ---> Flexible and reliable
Outriders ---> Machine gun bunker

Belial
12-05-2009, 19:28
detachment rule =

most overrated rule in Warhammer

it will work the first few games against opponents who haven't seen it but it is very easily counterable and those detachments (esp free company) often give away just as much combat resloution as they net


Dont throw your detachment away giving your opponent easy CR, thats a huge mistake some empire players make. Just dont countercharge with them if you dont think its a gain.
Still i think Detachments have their purposes. They are good at diverting enemy units you dont want to go to combat with away, cause they are cheap and they dont force break/fear test at the parent unit.
If you countercharge the enemy unit engaged with the parent unit, remember that its a "charge" and the detachment gets the strike first rule as per charging.

Admiral Samuel Eden
12-05-2009, 19:45
Indeed, Pistoleers are IMO a better option not because the Outriders are poor just because pistoleers are more helpful and cheaper. Note that they are I believe the only light cavalry that can seriously damage a unit of say knights while they lead them around the battlefield on a chase after the pony club. I have decimated units of Blood Knights with these guys before, you don't have to just dance with your enemy.
When it comes to detachments, they are very useful but it all has to be in the right place at the right time. Making Handgunner detachments if you have hills is a good idea as you place them on the hill behind your block unit so that they are safe and can always stand and shoot for the unit below them. It is important that the unit in front will not run however so characters need to be around.
I would recommend swordsmen and less handgunners (say 20) for you as well as 2 cannon. When it comes to characters, Priests are very good as they improve army morale, they give you prayers which are very good and they give units hatred which if your using spear men is a good thing as now that can re-roll misses so become quite powerful for no extra points while with swordsmen, there simply aren't enough attacks for the ability to make a difference.
Cheers and good luck, welcome to the Empire.

PeG
12-05-2009, 21:18
Detachments are great they just cant be used in the same way that they used to. One of the big advantages with them is that they dont cause panic when they flee which is very important in a low LD army. They also allows you to use use small units of archers for redirecting, small shooty units, small sacrificial units and of course against some enemies they are also useful for countercharges. But as others have said performing countercharges is no longer the most important task for detachements (if it ever was).

psycho
13-05-2009, 15:15
pistoliers with repeater pistol champion and musican for me
managed to kill a giant in one round of shooting.

the move-or-fire part of the outriders makes them less usefull than move 16 and shoot 8 pistoliers.

PeG
13-05-2009, 16:09
Outriders are better for high armour targets and a chamion with Hochland can hurt enemy characters. Pistoliers have more shots and are more useful against low armour enemies especially if they have ward saves. Since all the top armies at the moment can be found in this group (daemons, DE and VC) I would say that pistoliers are more useful if you have to choose.

The possible exception would be if you want to spam Hochlands which in theory might be efficient but I have never seen it used.

Lord Dan
13-05-2009, 17:53
The possible exception would be if you want to spam Hochlands which in theory might be efficient but I have never seen it used.

I've seen it used. I think between 8 hochlands he killed a wizard and a unit champion, but the other characters were just too tough to dent.

ivrg
13-05-2009, 18:42
My advice would be pistoliers because they can move and fire. Outriders is like a warmachine or a heavy weapon in 40 k. They are good when the enemy is approching you but when you need to move around, pistoliers are better.

I would recomend a BSB on horse with full plate armour and maybe some magical item. I think he is usefull always for empire but porberbly less usefull in some lists. AS general i would use the arch lector.