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CordovaLemonSlayer
09-05-2009, 18:26
C'mon, you know it'd be cool. It could easily explain and explore the 40k universe better then a two hour movie. It wouldn't have to be about a one single race, it could alternate but stick to the same plot line. I think it would rock!

Tourniquet
09-05-2009, 18:35
I think it would be best if done from the PoV of an imperial guardsman, or a =][= and their retinue.
Possibly a Guard whom ends in the retinue.
This way you can bring in the diverse different races and situations of 40k

SHOULD NOT be done from SM PoV.

Ben
09-05-2009, 18:39
Been tried. It was handed over to another company to do a CGI series, and it bankrupted them.

It will always be about marines, sorry.

Plus the 40k universe is a bit dark for children.

MORDOR RULER42
09-05-2009, 18:47
I agree!But i think a movie would be cool as well,from like guard fighting chaos for the series and THE ATTACK ON EARTH (When Horus invades earth) for the movie.Or like tyranids raiding a small human village and then guard regiment coming to help.but then a chieftain lady from the village meets the commisar and asks for protection and that the tyranids keep on comnig for her.Then she goes to cadia(the planet itself) and then the tyranids attack the cadian gate worlds...

BigRob
09-05-2009, 18:55
Once again my vote goes to a saturday morning cartoon type thing, based on one of the more successful comic series like Titan, Kal Jerico or Bloodquest.

Its a proven storyline, good fun for the kiddies and help encourage them to look into the hobby. It would have to be at most a 12A series, probably best to have a level of violence equal to "Wolverine and the XMen" or "TMNT"

These threads always descend into a "Its gotta be an 18 gorefest with naked deamonettes and lesbian battle sisters while spacemarines rip peoples heads off" which while fun will not help sell models.

GodofWarTx
09-05-2009, 19:52
I think it would be just about the worst idea you could do to 40k.

A saturday morning cartoon about 40k? So how exactly do you seeing that planned out with warhammer 40,000 being full of chaos worship of dark gods, bomb collars placed around penal legions, commisars shooting their own men in the back of the skull, and slaanesh sexuality?

Besides, there arnt any real "good guys" from a conventional standpoint.

It would either be watered down so much it wouldnt be 40k or it would cause a terrible backlash on why this is being marketed to children in a saturday morning cartoon timeslot. It will kill the games credibility among adults and even young adults who see cartoons like that as being too childish.

I think the only way 40k should be introduced to the general public should be a full budget PG-13 or R rated movie. That kind of exposure will hopefully create a critical mass of new interest and have the word-of-mouth talk that GW so desperately wants.

RCgothic
09-05-2009, 20:02
Imperial guard war film. Maybe Necropolis from the Guant's Ghosts series. Could get away with being a 15 and still be a brutal enough war film.

Amareo Davion
09-05-2009, 20:17
I think the only way 40k should be introduced to the general public should be a full budget PG-13 or R rated movie. That kind of exposure will hopefully create a critical mass of new interest and have the word-of-mouth talk that GW so desperately wants.

I agree.The game itself is aimed at Young adults and adults and so has all the types of media its been in. Besides 40k is too complicated to explain in a saturday morning cartoon. You would have about 3 episodes explaining the horus heresy.

Gaargod
09-05-2009, 20:25
Hell personally i reckon just doing a film of the Horus Heresy would be awesome.

The story is already done and its interesting. It involves people in 40k, without needing to do one of their rubbishy 'everyone for some reason comes to this planet and fights' plots

SimonL
09-05-2009, 20:25
Should be anime, not a "cartoon". And I don't mean ridiculous exaggerated anime like DBZ. If you don't think anime could handle something complex and serious like 40k, you should see Ghost in the Shell.

Gensuke626
09-05-2009, 20:27
I agree.The game itself is aimed at Young adults and adults and so has all the types of media its been in. Besides 40k is too complicated to explain in a saturday morning cartoon. You would have about 3 episodes explaining the horus heresy.

Why not just make Horus Heresy Seasons 1 and 2? Make season 3 the Reign of Blood, Season 4 the Sabbat Crusade, Season 5 The Marcharian Crusade, Season 6 the 3rd War for Armageddon, Season 6 The 13th Black Crusade...ect...

GodofWarTx
09-05-2009, 20:38
Why not just make Horus Heresy Seasons 1 and 2? Make season 3 the Reign of Blood, Season 4 the Sabbat Crusade, Season 5 The Marcharian Crusade, Season 6 the 3rd War for Armageddon, Season 6 The 13th Black Crusade...ect...

well, im not really sure that would work as a "series" because at the end of each "season" all new characters are introduced and all development on previous ones will be over.

Besides, thats also assuming the show lasts in the always risky/ever shifting television lineup. ;)

Hun
09-05-2009, 20:40
40k isn't complex, have you read their novels?

Raibaru
09-05-2009, 20:41
Too large. From the point of a guardsmen it would be boring and to similar to a typical military program.

Best bet is an anime styled cartoon along the same lines as Spawn on HBO or something.

Cartoon Network even these days may host it despite any violence as they have some stuff on there now that clearly goes over kids heads and is quite raunchy.

Gensuke626
09-05-2009, 20:44
well, im not really sure that would work as a "series" because at the end of each "season" all new characters are introduced and all development on previous ones will be over.

Besides, thats also assuming the show lasts in the always risky/ever shifting television lineup. ;)

Isn't that how the original Mission Impossible show worked, except on an episode by episode basis?

Lostanddamned
09-05-2009, 21:04
Should be anime, not a "cartoon". And I don't mean ridiculous exaggerated anime like DBZ. If you don't think anime could handle something complex and serious like 40k, you should see Ghost in the Shell.

40k should be an anime? what badly dubbed and heavily cut, broadcast in the UK & US out of sequence and not at all in mainland Europe?

40k is western fantasy with a serious dose of sci-fi.

I would rather you kept your anime out of it please. There would be nothing wrong with doing it in a perfectly straightforwards western animated style. Possibly something like Batman: The Animated Series - which has a good high gothic approach.

Ghost in the Shell and Akira and whatever other tired anime is "capable of doing serious and complex" argument aside, 40k is just not suitable for anime styles.

I would like to see (as suggested in the latest 40k movie thread) something based around the Deff Skwadron comics, or similar, something that isn't as heavy going as the Horus Heresy, but still accurately portrays an aspect of the 40k universe.


Of course, as I stated in the Captian Ramroz's 40k Movie thread: the cost and difficulty of pitch, as well as the amount it would need to be changed and various licsencing deals that are unlikely to be cut between the producers, directors & GW mean that such a thing would never be seen.

I would reccomend Damnatus, but its not avaliable through legitimate means.

vampires are cool!
09-05-2009, 22:12
Anime has to many tightly constructed conventions which I just find to infuriating; The mandatory love interest, the over long reminising and flash backs, the long soliloquies and poor banter... I could go on, but I wont.

I'm with LaD, art style means jack at the end of the day - unless anime is just a vehicle for skinny 'hot' boys to fight and prove to an over simpering pouty girl that they are superior and honourable and fighting for something true and blaaargh.

Unfortuanatly most things stamped with the anime lable these days do tend to get the above associated with them. I think a lot of older games would be put off by that simple association alone.

Raibaru
09-05-2009, 22:59
There's tons of highly stylized animated shows. Spawn the animated series, afro samurai, the recent evangelion reboot, Wizards (or all of Bahkshi's work), The Last Unicorn. Now not all are anime inspired, but just because they're animated doesn't mean they can't be suitably dark etc.

GraveGuard
09-05-2009, 23:04
I will always maintain the theory that you can't do Warhammer as a film or tv series because as soon as you include Chaos it would instantly get rated 18 with stuff like Slaanesh, Khorne and Nurgle.
Now that wouldn't really be a problem except for the fact GW's main markets eems to be 13yr olds.

Dio´Ra
09-05-2009, 23:18
I still think CGI is the way to go....only more serious....

example of a cgi cartoon is star wars: clone wars....though its kid friendly....if we want to go more serious way then we could go alla resident evil degeneration....

my vote goes to a CGI movie...doesn't has to be cinema...go the way like the latest stargate movies, go straight for dvd sells in hobby stores or direct to download from GW website...

Azyreth
09-05-2009, 23:41
It was made.
Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0XNf0G5ugs&feature=related
(OK not really a TV show but close enough)

Maybe we would be better off without one...

Raibaru
09-05-2009, 23:56
It was made.
Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0XNf0G5ugs&feature=related
(OK not really a TV show but close enough)

Maybe we would be better off without one...

It's quite old too to be fair. I mean Tyranids didn't look like that since Space Hulk first came out. Even in second edition they got a face lift to move away from the hairless rabbit look I do believe.

Warpcrafter
09-05-2009, 23:56
These threads always descend into a "Its gotta be an 18 gorefest with naked deamonettes and lesbian battle sisters while spacemarines rip peoples heads off" which while fun will not help sell models.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I'll contact the people at the Encyclopedia Britannica so they can make space for you...

CordovaLemonSlayer
10-05-2009, 00:00
Just to make clear, I said T.V. series, not cartoon. Should have said Live-Action

SorcerorMitch
10-05-2009, 00:33
Yes but that means the only possible way for the actors to do it would make the guard the maikn characters as its next to impossible for them to be able to act some of the races (necrons come to mind).
As a T.V series it would be better from a quardsmans POV so everyone sees the space marines as the majestic (yet brutish) warriors they are in comparison to a space marines point of view where space marines are average and normal humans are weak. Gaunts ghost would be prefferable here

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 00:39
40k should be an anime? what badly dubbed and heavily cut, broadcast in the UK & US out of sequence and not at all in mainland Europe?

40k is western fantasy with a serious dose of sci-fi.

I would rather you kept your anime out of it please. There would be nothing wrong with doing it in a perfectly straightforwards western animated style. Possibly something like Batman: The Animated Series - which has a good high gothic approach.

Ghost in the Shell and Akira and whatever other tired anime is "capable of doing serious and complex" argument aside, 40k is just not suitable for anime styles.



Lol. TAS was animated IN JAPAN. Which says what? Oh yeah that's right. They are ANIMATORS who will animate what they are PAYED to animate.

Please get your anti anime hysteria out of it please. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the newest series, is animated in South Korea.



Anime has to many tightly constructed conventions which I just find to infuriating; The mandatory love interest, the over long reminising and flash backs, the long soliloquies and poor banter... I could go on, but I wont.

I'm with LaD, art style means jack at the end of the day - unless anime is just a vehicle for skinny 'hot' boys to fight and prove to an over simpering pouty girl that they are superior and honourable and fighting for something true and blaaargh.

Unfortuanatly most things stamped with the anime lable these days do tend to get the above associated with them. I think a lot of older games would be put off by that simple association alone.

Well the animatrix was received well.


The Japanese have spent far more time in R&D on animation techniques than the US. It's a mainstream form of entertainment over there for all ages. Thus, their animation studios are much better at it than American ones. CGI studios are a different kettle of fish and one I don't think appropriate for animating a story entirely populated with humans.

The point of mentioning shows like Ghost in the Shell is that Japanese animators can and will produce great visuals. They do what they are PAID to do. And what they are paid to do ends up most of the time being better than American productions.

Jin Roh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHDKwMlspHE)

Berserk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBKr7nrtooc&feature=related)

Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGj_XZiRYCI)

These are used as evidence to prove that japanese animation companies can and DO produce amazing animation that aren't big eyes small mouth crap.

They are animated shows based on manga produced in Japan. Some people call it Japanimation. Others, anime.


The production quality of these shows is of a consistently higher level than the shows produced in the US. Mainly because the US doesn't consider animation as a 'proper' form of entertainment, marketing it at kids who will acept shoddier work.

A Japanese animation company will produce a better animated show and for far less than you'd have to spend to get the same quality from a US producer. Hell, you'd probably get it cheaper than the Japanese if you went to South Korea, with the sime high quality.


Having said all that, I'd prefer a live action series in the mould of The Outer Limits. A one hour episode exploring one story, which each episode being a different story. That way you can get a broad swathe of stories without losing the 40kness of the whole thing.

EDIT: Some might use the argument that these are the exception rather than the rule of Japanese animation. Well, I would reply that the US just DOESN'T produce stories like these, so there is no comparison. The US has 0 Jin Roh/Berserk/GitS equivalents because all they do is kids stuff. The adult animation isn't of a high quality either as it's either just badly animated or its highly stylised (Family Guy, American Dad etc). You'll have a hard time finding something produced in the US like Jin Roh ie high quality and REALISTIC, because they DON'T DO IT.

Thus I would take a Japanese company over an untried more expensive American one any day.

Hellebore

Dio´Ra
10-05-2009, 00:42
It was made.
Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0XNf0G5ugs&feature=related
(OK not really a TV show but close enough)

Maybe we would be better off without one...

That so reminds me of David Lynch's Dune movie :D

Gensuke626
10-05-2009, 01:00
I will always maintain the theory that you can't do Warhammer as a film or tv series because as soon as you include Chaos it would instantly get rated 18 with stuff like Slaanesh, Khorne and Nurgle.
Now that wouldn't really be a problem except for the fact GW's main markets eems to be 13yr olds.

I think Nurgle and Khorne, and even Slaanesh could easily be shown on a Cable or even Network TV station...they just have to do them properly. Slaanesh is not the God of Sex. He's the prince of excess. Greed, Gluttony, Lust and envy are his domains. Don't show his followers as being always involved in massive orgies, Show his followers as Lunatics who spout such things as "Pain gives me Strength!" or "I'll Tear you Apart with my Bear Hands!" before laughing hysterically.

Nurgle and Khorne are fairly easy to tone back on while staying true to the fluff. Nurgle just needs to be a bit disgusting, and actually would make for great stereotypical villians, as they would always be horribly deformed. With khorne you can either go with crazed bloodlust or Martial Pride, as he used to be known for. Either way it's not adding things to TV that you can't already find there. I mean, Blood For The Blood God! sounds rather tame...

rodmillard
10-05-2009, 01:02
I still maintain that the eisenhorn novels would make a great miniseries/trilogy of movies - although they would almost certainly end up with a 15 (if not 18) rating and a "contains graphic violence and fantasy horror" label on the box...

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
10-05-2009, 01:41
Well the animatrix was received well.



I was possessed of a viewpoint similar to that of Lostanddamned, until I watched The Second Renaissance. Good god, some of that was pure grimdark. I'm not going to say I accept the style as a whole, but that won.

gamer2456
10-05-2009, 01:51
Imperial guard war film. Maybe Necropolis from the Guant's Ghosts series. Could get away with being a 15 and still be a brutal enough war film.

I want to see Necropolis become a movie (seeing as its my favorite 40k book). I can imagine it being similiar to Enemy at the Gates, lots of propaganda and casualties. If a 40k movie was made though, it would have to go all out for an R. That may not be the best idea for getting lots of crowds, but I'd love it.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 02:08
At a young age I myself was not really aware of anime, or liked it.

When I was 15 I saw a show in Australia called Technoman (in Japan released as Tekkaman Blade):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJPS7lk8Is4&feature=related

It was quite a grown up story for a kids tv timeslot (8:00AM before I went to school). Had one of the most powerful and sad endings I've ever seen.

After that I saw a few more, like Patlabor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSXD-79uvMw&feature=related) which was quite eery. Then of course I saw Akira and the original ghost in the shell series. A little while later seeing Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Most of the anime I watched when forming my opinion of anime was in this vein. No pokemon, DBZ, or any of that. So when I see people saying how crap it is it really pisses me off because I've spent my viewing time watching amazing anime with extremely deep messages AND great animation.

Sure there is BESM stupidity, but that's true of American animation as well, just look at the majority of Disney shows like Ducktales and Gummi Bears. Exactly the same sort of thing.

But, and this is the important bit, the US has produced a lot of BESM equivalents and yet not GITS equivalents.

Hellebore

unclejimbo827
10-05-2009, 02:25
Joss Wheadon should do it. That way, you can pull in as many nerds as possible, all of whom will worship the show no matter how trite and overrated it is.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-05-2009, 02:35
I was just talking this over with my wife, and I came up with three examples of the best possible ways to do a 40K movie or series. With apologies to Hellebore and others, anime is way too much of a niche market to really be able to open 40K up to a wide audience with a series or film. On a personal note, I just think it's sometimes painful to watch. All of those examples you gave reminded me of why I dislike anime.

But I will not simply tear down, here are my own ideas with examples:

1. Animated series
Just as someone else had suggested, something akin to Batman the Animated Series or Gargoyles. Cartoon, but dark enough to fit the 40K universe. This would only work for a series, not a feature film.
Batman the Animated Series (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEx9r5enZsk&feature=PlayList&p=66BE755657B7B032&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2)
Gargoyles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygrEVnrg3Ic)

2. Live-Action with CGI
This would seem to be the best idea at first glance. Easy to get actors, throw in some CGI aliens(a la new Star Wars movies) and viola, 40K movie and/or series. However, the biggest problem would be doing Space Marines. Look like people, but significantly bigger than people. All CGI? Dudes in suits would look lumbering and probably awful. CGI might look too fake. Shrink or grow folks like in LoTR?
Star Wars Arena Battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuF6Yq7gRUg&feature=related)
Starship Troopers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWhrGGrs3Ow)

3. Complete CGI
I feel this is the best possibility. I know that the first major all-CGI adult-oriented film, Final Fantasy: the Spirits Within (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt3BdYZHt7Y&feature=PlayList&p=6DBE8D994F3E30A9&index=0&playnext=1), did not do very well in the theaters. Most likely because it was awful. With the cache of 40K, the grim-dark grimmy darkness, and general bad-assery of the 40K universe, you'd definitely pull in more viewers. Plus you'd be able to make everything you need to, it would all look the same and nothing would seem any more "unrealistic" than anything else.

Dawn of War 2 trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu4ABhVd28U)
Cutscene from DoW2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiSx5OURmWI)

There are dozens more cutscenes from the game on that website. The videos literally took my breath away, and I nearly pooped my pants the first time I saw that warp jump.

Anywho, it will never happen because Games Workshop hates making me happy. Also, on a slightly more realistic note, the won't because the are too afraid to take chances. They passed when Blizzard initially wanted to do a RTS game, and had to come in late with Dawn of War and Mark of Chaos. Now people assume that Warhammer/40K is a knock off of Warcraft/Starcraft. The did they same thing with Warhammer Online. Now they'll wait until a WoW movie is released before trying to come in later and horn in on the action.

If nearly any of the folks on this forum worked for GW, they could turn the company around in minutes. GW seems to be oblivious to what the fans want and what will make money.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 02:58
You obviously missed the bit where I said that Batman the animated series was animated in Japan, at least some episodes by Studio Junio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Underdwellers_(Batman:_The_Animated_Series)

The audio comentary by Bruce Timm also talks about the first appearance of Mister Freeze and how the director of the Japanese animation company that made the episode airbrused by hand the frosted glass bubble around his head because he thought it was an important part of the character and story.


As was Gargoyles, specifically, Walt Disney Animation Japan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyles_(TV_series)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_Animation_Japan



Hellebore

Nezmith
10-05-2009, 03:02
If nearly any of the folks on this forum worked for GW, they could turn the company around in minutes. GW seems to be oblivious to what the fans want and what will make money.

The fans want more Space marines! MORE SPACE MARINES! MOAR!

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-05-2009, 03:10
You obviously missed the bit where I said that Batman the animated series was animated in Japan, at least some episodes by Studio Junio.

No, I didn't miss it. I didn't say that the 40K series couldn't be made/animated in Japan, I said that anime is terrible. The animated style that is specific to Japan, epitomized in Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Dragonball Z, etc. Just because it is animated in Japan does not mean it is "anime."

I'm not saying they don't put a lot of effort into it, I'm not saying they don't spend hours upon hours painstakingly crafting their films and making sure the script is full of amazing twists, turns, and soliloquies. I'm just saying it sucks. In general. To me.

I don't give a rats ass where the make it. I care what the style is, what the characters/backgrounds look like, and that we don't show Space Marines flying through the air with white slashies flying behind them. You know what I'm talking about. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z28r44laGLk) is an amazing compilation of everything I hate about anime, and why it would make me cry to see a 40K anime movie.

kemmler
10-05-2009, 03:22
cgi like dawn of war intro?

Vote Kantor
10-05-2009, 03:27
two words: Gaunts. Ghosts. Brutal and dark enough for m-pg13, nothing too horrible. I would watch that as long as they dont screw with the charachters too badly. i can just see kids yelling at bragg: COO IS GOING TO STAB YOU!!!

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 03:28
Of the anime I linked, only Technoman had that motif. GitS went to great lengths to produce realistic animation far in excess of anything produced in America. Both Batman TAS and Gargoyles are extremely stylised, which I don't like. I LOVED both those shows, but the animation style just wasn't to my liking. More detailed and realistic imagery I prefer, which both Jin Roh and GitS produced.

Saying you think 40k would suck as an anime because of the way DBZ was animated is like saying that it would suck if animated by disney because of Ducktales. Both anime and Disney have produced realistic and beautiful animation, Jin Roh, GitS, and Beauty and the Beast as some examples (BatB is my favourite Disney film, followed by The Hunchback of Notre Dame), just as they have produced poorly animated kiddy over the topness (Duck Tales, Gummi Bears, DBZ, Pokemon etc).

The problem is that most anime fans refer to all animation coming from Japan as 'Anime' to differentiate it from western animation. However, those that don't like Pokemon and the entire BESM style of anime refer to those as why 'Anime' sucks, despite it being a specific subgenre of Japanese animation in general.

They are still animated versions of manga produced in Japan, it's just one manga is aimed at kids and the other is aimed at adults.

Differentiating it like that would be the equivalent of saying Western Animation is defined by Looney Toons and ignoring Metalocalypse, Family Guy, The Venture Bros., Invader Zim and all the other inumberable more adult series. They are still western animation but they aren't all equivalent. Just as the US can come out with species 2 and 3 but also produce Forrest Gump.

I never said that a 40k anime in the style of DBZ would be a good idea, I specifically cited several anime that are NOTHING LIKE THAT because their imagery is very dark and violent, just like 40k.

They animate how they wish, just like Disney has produced dozens of films with vastly different animation styles (contrast Beauty and Beast with Hercules or The Emperor's New Groove). You can't define Disney animation style on one film because they are all different. Any more than you can define Japanese animation style on one series because they are also all different.

The Animatrix was also produced in Japan. But I'm sure it's not 'anime' either. That way you can pick and choose what's anime so your definition is always being supported by terrible shows. Convenient.

My viewing encompasses a diverse range of animation.

I've watched every disney movie that exists
All the Saturday Disney Shows (Tailspin, Ducktales, Darkwing Duck)
Inspector Gadget
Transformers
GI Joe
Anime of all sorts (although I won't watch Pokemon or DBZ for the same reasons you don't like it)

I'm not an anime fan, I'm an animation fan. It just so happens that the Japanese cover more adult concepts, more violent story lines and moral dilemmas than the west does in animation, which means I enjoy them far more.

You can't decide that any animation in Japan that's 'good' isn't anime though.

And to reiterate again, even if we ignore 'anime' or whatever, we are left with the undeniable truth that the animation companies in Asia are simply BETTER at animation than America. Which means that you'd be far better off getting one of them to do it for you.

Because they will animate it however you, the person paying them, wish it to be animated. That the majority of American produced Japanese animated kids shows these days are in the BESM style of anime says more about the VIEWERS than it does about the animators. ie they like that style or it wouldn't keep selling.

If you asked an anime company to make you a distopian future universe with daemons in, to the specifications given, that's what you'd get. But you'd get it at a far higher production value and better animation than you'd get if you tried to get an American company to do the same thing.

Hellebore

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-05-2009, 04:11
The Animatrix was also produced in Japan. But I'm sure it's not 'anime' either. That way you can pick and choose what's anime so your definition is always being supported by terrible shows. Convenient

This is the only part of your whole post I had a problem with. OBVIOUSLY when I give examples of why I hate "anime" I'm going to "pick and choose" the things that best show what I'm talking about. Is there something wrong with that? I'm trying to show you what I hate about it.

Once again, I don't care where it's made, and I gave you examples of what animated series I thought were good. I saw yours, and I thought they were awful, and they look dated. A movie done in that style would flop to worldwide audiences. We're not going to agree to on this, and that's fine.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 04:27
This is the only part of your whole post I had a problem with. OBVIOUSLY when I give examples of why I hate "anime" I'm going to "pick and choose" the things that best show what I'm talking about. Is there something wrong with that? I'm trying to show you what I hate about it.


Well there is a problem when you paint it all with the same brush. It is completely irrelevant that DBZ is done in a style you loathe if a 40k series is done the same way Jin Roh was done because other than both being animated in the same country they are nothing alike. So your argument is pointless UNLESS for some unknown and bizarre reason a 40k tv series was FORCIBLY made in the same style as DBZ, which is ridiculous.

Not once did I point to the flying spinkick shows that you cited as hating (with perhaps the exception of Tekkaman, but being an AMV it concentrates all the fight sequences together and gives a disproportionate example). Everything in GitS and Jin Roh is designed to be realistic (within the bounds of context, GitS does have cyborgs in it). JinRoh especially.



Once again, I don't care where it's made, and I gave you examples of what animated series I thought were good. I saw yours, and I thought they were awful, and they look dated. A movie done in that style would flop to worldwide audiences. We're not going to agree to on this, and that's fine.

Dated? The GitS series' (1 and 2) were made in the last 6 years. It's a little hypocritical to cite the 1992 Batman show and then say the stuff I showed is dated.:rolleyes:
In fact, apart from the cut scene shows (like DOW) everything you exampled is HORRIBLY dated. Batman is 17 years old, Gargoyles 15. The Starship troopers series, being CGI has aged awefully because of the low poly count and wooden animations. Still love the show though, doesn't change that it has aged.

I think you've got it wrong. What is the most popular form of animation these days amongst the majority of viewers? DBZ/pokemon. It still rakes in the cash. Thus, whether you like it or not a 40k movie done in that style would end up selling far more and would definitely not be a flop. It'd be a flop for YOU (and me for that matter because I dislike those kind of animes), but that's a pretty small demographic.

Whether we agree on this or not, the truth is the truth. And the truth is that whilst you dislike certain aspects of animation produced in Japan that in no way invalidates the entire Japanese animation industry.

Hellebore

Lamhirh
10-05-2009, 04:57
It would have to be shown on something like Adult Swim. If you can show 'cartoons' like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7tY0UQDDTY) on TV, depicting the brutality of the 40Kverse would be a non-issue. Having an anime studio work in tandem with GW would probably yield the best results. It does not mean that the characters will look BESM, especially if they get concept artists like Goodwin, Dainton etc. involved.

"Tales of the Black Freighter" is pretty grimdark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPlV6FmplL0

It was done by a Korean animation studio btw.

Imagine an eldar Exarch/Autarch depicted like so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d75fA_7pLjk

I realize full 3D would be even more impressive. If they decided to go that route I nominate Digic Pictures, the studio that put this together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs79s8sNWlY

Blur's WAR trailers, while nice, didn't do it for me.

CEO Kasen
10-05-2009, 05:05
...40k TV.

...


Next on "Imperial Idol," it's down to Inquisitor Czevak's Family Traitor-Bake Sing-Along versus the fan favorite, the howlings of Ragnar Blackmane! Who will be the next... Imperial Idol?!

And after that, don't miss Ceramite Chef! Will Terminator-armored Chairman Kaga be able to top last week's theme ingredient for Battle Hormagaunt? Will the Imperial Fists' meat-mashing mastery be able to beat the wily Ceramite Chef? Tune in to find out! Allez Cuisine!

Col. Tartleton
10-05-2009, 05:08
I'm being nitpicky Hellebore, but your example of Looney Toons as kiddish miffed me a bit. Looney Toons has often offended me just as much as family guy and their are a couple moments where its surpassed south park. Not that I hold that against it, I actually find it hilarious how much people could get away with in the past. I mean besides all the sex jokes and fly over your head type stuff that gets in there at times you have things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSYAY1nv6tg&feature=related

Trey Parker and Matt Stone don't even have the nads to put something like that on TV. Well probably...

But yes, Anime isn't my favorite style of portraying people, and there are are a lot of things I dislike with a lot of different series (like I hate really realistic animated backdrops and very cartoon people, that bothers my sensibilities... I guess I just like coherency) but ultimately, if you want a good cartoon you will get a Japanese cartoon, and that's a good thing. Anime is a love hate thing. You look at it, and either its really cool or you turn it off.

I just think its important however to stay away from traditional styling. Warhammer has a British/German flavor to it, and that needs to permeate the material. The art needs to draw heavily from its material. It can't look like Ghost in the Shell (not because GitS is poor quality, but because it isn't warhammer) it needs to stick to this kind of stuff:

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 05:22
I wasn't specifically saying that Looney Toons was childish, rather that it doesn't define Western animation as a whole. It wasn't so much the subject matter, rather the identifiable style I was using it for.

If you gave a Japanese company the picture you post above, they would faithfully recreate it. They are extremely good at recreating exact imagery given to them. Consider the Manga styles being brought over to the anime. Berserk is not a standard 'anime style' like the one the good sergeant refers to, but the animators faithfully recreated the artist's design style from the manga in the anime.

The Japanese can and will do what you ask of them. They'll just do it far better. There are some very simple yet effective techniques japanese animators use to this day that western animators aren't fond of, like multilayered backgrounds moving past each other to produce a sense of movement you get in a car trip. It's simple and cheap yet very effective at potraying the sense of motion you actually get in a moving car.

The Spawn cartoon series whilst good, was very irregular in animation quality. That's one of things I like the most about good anime, the animation is near flawless. You don't have jumping lines and/or colour changes. The 80s had quite a few animes with bad animations, but it's been virtually nonexistent in the last 15 years or so.


Don't forget I'm a 40k fan before I'm an animation fan. I would hate to see an animated film done badly. I just don't think it would be if done by a japanese animation company. So long as they were given very specific animation designs and instructions.

The fights alone would be breathtaking. Eldar in particular would do well in an anime, they are already very anime in physique and prowess.

Hellebore

Col. Tartleton
10-05-2009, 05:50
I agree with you I was just illustrating the point. Anime isn't what we stupid people think it is, but what we think it is isn't anything like warhammer, and what it actually is still usually isn't warhammer. Warhammer (not the game, the core of all that is "grim and dark" is about overloading the senses with things you should never see until it loses its shockingness. This is the thing that would be hard to really get into a TV series that would manage to get on western TV where cartoons tend to either be expected for children or as adults be too niche to get respect and viewers.

Warhammer 40k is the stuff you watch the first episode and say that was disturbing. But you think "kind of interesting though" so you watch it again. As it goes on you empathize with the people who in the beginning you wanted to kill because they were so godless and vile to your moral compass. Warhammer is about moral relativity.

The Imperium is the most harsh human regime ever. Their average citizen is both someone we pity and find to be a peace of filth. They're so inhumanely human its going to bother you. They encompass the evils of religious extremism and totalitarian rule.

The Eldar are b***ard covered b***ards with b***ard filling. They don't care about you, your an animal and they don't need to be nice to you or even acknowledge your right to live. They represent the evil of nobility and all the disregard for the "common man" they are out of touch and gaudy.

The Orks are barbarians who just drink and fight. There's a lot of influences in the Orks, and most of them tend to be the people the mainline white majority make fun of (cockneys, rednecks, perhaps Africans, people of that sort.) They're pretty much the stereotype crude human but they're fungal gorillas.

The forces of Chaos are everything bad that isn't directly part of the other races. They are about society dissolving and people embracing those animal instincts that are unique to the human mind. I've never seen a shark which is a scary animal wear trophies of its victims skin and eyes while it injects itself with ebola and plans to kill the land dwellers using a "laser" while painting pornographically shocking images (khorne, nurgle, tzeentch, and Slaanesh stereotypes.)

Then you have the Necrons who are past the emo stage in terms of bitterness and are apparently (I hate the necrons as is, they have no depth I'm working on an alternative necron project but that's irrelevant) now full blown school shooter "just kill everything."

Finally you have the Tau which as I said in the other thread about movies are sort of the "Evil Americans" to the Imperium's "Good Nazis." They talk a nice talk, but there are secrets going on, and you really can't trust what they say at face value because its all propaganda.

Oh and Tyrannids are animals and we can't hate them for it. Even Uriel Ventris (the pre Calgar "******* those smurfs" hate icon if you all remember) says something like "there is a beauty to the Tyrannids that no other animal has, they are the perfection of the predator"

Like we all know, there are no good guys which makes it compelling. That's probably the thing that is hit or miss with people. In real life there are almost no bad guys because almost every person except the insane are doing something for a reason. Warhammer is pretty much saying that is crap and that all people are worthless :)

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 05:58
Well there is one anime I can think of off the top of my head that is chaos disturbing and gross, genocyber.

Genocyber OST - Genocide

Put that into Youtube. It's very graphic so I didn't want to link to it here.

EDIT: It has possessed air craft carriers, daemon monsters, psykers, militaries mowing down civilians to get at one person etc.

Elfen Lied - GORE is also something you should look up. Rogue psyker wierdo.

Hellebore

Col. Tartleton
10-05-2009, 06:09
Thanks Hellebore. Thanks a lot. There goes sleeping for a while.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 06:13
Wellll, you did say:



The forces of Chaos are everything bad that isn't directly part of the other races. They are about society dissolving and people embracing those animal instincts that are unique to the human mind. I've never seen a shark which is a scary animal wear trophies of its victims skin and eyes while it injects itself with ebola and plans to kill the land dwellers using a "laser" while painting pornographically shocking images (khorne, nurgle, tzeentch, and Slaanesh stereotypes.)

I was just trying to find an animated approximation that fit well. Not surprisingly the Japanese have that too.:p

Berserk has a lot of more typical European daemons with horns and wings etc.

Hellebore

Born Again
10-05-2009, 06:30
Sure, personally I'd prefer a movie (as is being discussed in another thread) but a tv series could work too. CGI or live action? Not fussed, as long as it was done well. I do admit though I'm gonna join the grimdark bandwagon: I want all the violence and darkness shown in all it's gory glory, watering it down to a kids level may attract a new audience, but doesn't give the existing audience what they want. Since I'm existing, I'm voting for my opinion :p

Poseidal
10-05-2009, 08:52
Japanese Animated 40k would fit in a lot of places.

Have you seen Necromunda Goliaths? They're almost exactly like the Zeed Gang from Fist of the North Star.

Also, has anyone seen Project Geeker? That's like a dystopia future (though more cyberpunk; actually quite like Rogue Trader in visual style in places) and a 40k cartoon could by something like that.

Dr. Hellbeast
10-05-2009, 10:42
I agree!But i think a movie would be cool as well,from like guard fighting chaos for the series and THE ATTACK ON EARTH (When Horus invades earth) for the movie.Or like tyranids raiding a small human village and then guard regiment coming to help.but then a chieftain lady from the village meets the commisar and asks for protection and that the tyranids keep on comnig for her.Then she goes to cadia(the planet itself) and then the tyranids attack the cadian gate worlds...

Would you like Sigourney Weaver to play this chieftain lady? Would it also feature a plucky servitor named Bishop? :wtf:

Sorros
10-05-2009, 11:36
Anime is 1) Not that good, imho
2) Tiny market. No one would want to go and see it.

Just do CGI or, as I have said before, Peter Jackson style--epic, real time actors, etc, with great special effects, scripts, acting, storyline, etc.

Take the view of multiple sides fighting the same battle--Eldar, Guardsmen, Tau. An Eldar Dire Avenger exarch leading his warriors so that his race can live on, a guardsman fighting for his life (for the will of emperor, to slay the evil Xenos, but show that he is misinformed and truly good inside), a Tau fire warrior fighting for the Greater Good. And all the while, Chaos slowly creeping up on the warring armies until the climatic finale, where the Eldar decide the planet is lost, flee into the warp, an Inquisitor declares an exterminatus, and the tau, chaos, and guardsmen are wiped out.

Iracundus
10-05-2009, 12:35
Anime styles vary greatly as evidenced by the below serious epic space war anime with more realistic facial proportions than the stereotypical big eyed styles, and which includes virtually none of the usual run of the mill tropes. The series "Legend of the Galactic Heroes" is ultimately the tale of a war saga ala Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Alexander the Great (which is what Macharius is ripped off of), and shows you can show serious subject matter without falling into the usual stereotypes of anime shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7grjXe2Eyo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx0nqaSwo0M
(Note: The original animation dates from the 80's and 90's hence one must view with that time frame's quality standards in mind)


The other thing that must be borne in mind is that a show cannot ultimately be simply "war porn" with endless fight scenes as some people almost seem to be assuming 40K must be. At least some level of plot or characterization and development has to exist to get viewers invested with the characters.

Awilla the Hun
10-05-2009, 12:57
The giant anime vs non anime debate has began again!

Personally, I would like to go into a third camp: not because I especially dislike anime (I do; but my experience of it is Pokemon and being told about Kiko and Rohico or something like that by assorted lunatics, so I'm hardly well informed on this), but because I think you're getting it wrong.

Making warhammer 40,000 look like any sort of modern animation is denying the universe's charm. It looks old fashioned. Space Marines resemble Knights and Legionaries more than Sci Fi Marines. Guardsmen wear epaulettes and shiny helmet badges, being led by men with sabres. Ships look like cathedrals. None of this lends itself well to anime, because anime looks virtually nothing like reality. (People with weirdo triangular mouths are pretty rare, as far as I know.) Similarly, Western Animation looks far too rational, all well ordered, neat lines.

My third camp, therefore, is to make it look like the actual artwork of the game. Make scenes resemble old portraits, that emphasise the vast scale of it all. Make it, in short, look like "Barry Lyndon", albeit somewhat more fast paced. It may be animated, or live action, but make it look mythical and epic, not squeaky voiced or modern.

EDIT: A guardsman is not misinformed. Those aliens really are out to get him. If anything else is demonstrated, that's straying from another of 40k's main points: that fascism is justified in the actual setting. He's a good man because he's defending his country and people from extinction.

Lostanddamned
10-05-2009, 13:06
*sigh*

Hellebore, there is no point arguing with you, you will simply continue to post loonger and angrier replys until anyone who disagrees with you simply stops arguing.

Quite simply it's not that I don't like the "anime" styles of animation (I don't, but that is beyond the point), it is that I don't feel that any of the styles you listed - not even the Genocyber stuff - which personally I thought looked sort of like a slightly ramped up saturday morning cartoon.

The trick to portraying extreme gore in a way that is actually "scary" as opposed to rediculous is basicly to not show as much as possible, a shadow of a murder, or the sounds and, for example, blood running down a drain allows the audience's imagination to run wild - and percieve things which quite simply weren't shown. And the audiences mind is always more twisted than what a censor will allow to be shown at any hour.

Thats why books tend to be more scary than cinema or television - the pictures are better when there are only words.



My third camp, therefore, is to make it look like the actual artwork of the game. Make scenes resemble old portraits, that emphasise the vast scale of it all. Make it, in short, look like "Barry Lyndon", albeit somewhat more fast paced. It may be animated, or live action, but make it look mythical and epic, not squeaky voiced or modern.


I would like to join your camp. I personally think that this would be amazing if done right (and monty pythonesque and awesome if done wrong)

TheFloatingHead
10-05-2009, 14:03
Honestly it seems nowadays a cartoon can show a heck of a lot on television as far as violence and brutality. I'm sure plenty of guys here have seen Metalocalypse on Cartoon Network. That show is tremendously violent! People get mutilated in extremely bloody and creative ways constantly. Observe... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCr0ImWXB08 So if they can show that on television, I think most of what goes in the 40k universe could get by.
If a show or movie or anything like that ever came to light, in whatever style of animation they choose, I don't care personally, they would be best to keep the scope narrow. Guard and Marines versus Orks, or 'Nids. Maybe throw in some meddling Eldar because that's what they do. Don't try and include every race and every faction. Especially if it's a movie. They'd be like the X-Men movies, so many cool characters on the screen at once nobody gets the proper attention they truly deserve. Keep the number of factions involved low so audiences, especially those unfamiliar with the game itself, can better know who they are watching.

SimonL
10-05-2009, 14:12
The things Hellebore is arguing against are broad generalizations and fallacious reasoning. If you don't like animation then that's fine, it's your opinion.

Backing up your opinion that Japanese anime is unsuitable and dated with alternate examples of animation that is both a) Japanese and b) almost 20 years old seems rather illogical.

Also, this attitude of "anime sucks 'cause I saw DBZ and it had exaggerrated proportions/other ridiculousness, therefore all animation must be like that" is equally non-sensical.

Anime is enormously diverse. I myself only watch anime that is realistic. I don't mean in theme or story, I mean without cartoony pooping eyes, giant mouths, etc. Citing a couple examples of one particular style of anime as reasons why it won't work is like me saying...

"40k won't work as a live action because of Aliens vs Predator was terrible."

The Dead Space animated movie is much more American style, I shall refer you to Youtube as the link may be too graphic. I think it's very much 40k in imagery, but I find the animation much less fluid than it could have been.

I agree that anime 40k could go horribly wrong, but it's the only real workable option, along with CGI. The required budget and special effects are far beyond a weekly TV show's capabilities. I don't ever want to see 40k done like Stargate...

GraveGuard
10-05-2009, 14:19
The style isn't the problem, that all comes as secondary depending on who the market is for the program. It's pointless trying to compare a possible 40K series/Film/Cartoon/Anime etc to things like Spawn, Akira, GenoCyber, Starships Troopers etc as all these things were aimed at/for/rated for adults/late teens whereas a 40K series would no doubt given GW would want it aimed ad the young teen market.
Yes I know people/general public don't pay much attention to ratings and once upon a time putting 18/R markings on something would boost it but it doesn't seem to work that way anymore and production companies see it as a turn off because you can't sat things like "its a gore fest of a film/game/series filled with sex, violence, swearing etc but we want the kids to see it"

TimLeeson
10-05-2009, 14:23
if they ever did one, it should not be about marines or even IG imo, the best way to do it i think would be to focus on a single inquisitor and his retinue - from there you have characters. I would focus more on cultists, traitors, mutants ect, with occasional aliens in it. Season finales could be multi-episode campaigns, i.e. inquisitor calls in some marines for help against a growing threat (chaos, genestealer cult ect for example). This way our characters get to see all kinds of different planets, aliens, enemies ect. It would have to be done in a non-soapy but character based style IMO, very dark, gritty, horrific (not for kids) and be as twisted and weird as the backround.

itll never happen, but thats my opinion of what I think would best translate into a series.

SimonL
10-05-2009, 14:34
GraveGuard, I agree. It's a strange paradox, as to properly do justice to the setting and theme, it would be unsuitable for it's target audience.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 14:35
The things Hellebore is arguing against are broad generalizations and fallacious reasoning. If you don't like animation then that's fine, it's your opinion.

Backing up your opinion that Japanese anime is unsuitable and dated with alternate examples of animation that is both a) Japanese and b) almost 20 years old seems rather illogical.

Also, this attitude of "anime sucks 'cause I saw DBZ and it had exaggerrated proportions/other ridiculousness, therefore all animation must be like that" is equally non-sensical.

Anime is enormously diverse. I myself only watch anime that is realistic. I don't mean in theme or story, I mean without cartoony pooping eyes, giant mouths, etc. Citing a couple examples of one particular style of anime as reasons why it won't work is like me saying...

"40k won't work as a live action because of Aliens vs Predator was terrible."

The Dead Space animated movie is much more American style, I shall refer you to Youtube as the link may be too graphic. I think it's very much 40k in imagery, but I find the animation much less fluid than it could have been.

I agree that anime 40k could go horribly wrong, but it's the only real workable option, along with CGI. The required budget and special effects are far beyond a weekly TV show's capabilities. I don't ever want to see 40k done like Stargate...


SimonL said everything that needs saying LostandDamned. If that's not good enough then nothing will be.

I have yet to see an animated show produced outside Japan that actually produces high quality, high production, adult oriented material. What you want doesn't actually exist in the animation industry outside Japan because their culture places no stigma on animation as a form of entertainment and it is marketed to adults as much as children (with very specific animation styles for each demographic).

All the non Japanese animation given is either cut scenes from violent computer games (CG short movies that would be too expensive to make into a full length feature) or ACTUAL saturday morning kids shows like Gargoyles and Batman TAS (both animated by the exact same animators that produced the animation style you dislike).

Hellebore

Col. Tartleton
10-05-2009, 14:53
I agree, Dead Space is 80% the way there. The overall works, its obviously just a matter of making it look that much more 40k. It has to resemble the art of 40k and that will be hard to illustrate because its both stylized and highly realistic.

I also think an Inquisitor and retinue would be good because then he could move alongside the other Imperial stuff and fight against the aliens, and then accidentally (being and Ordo Xenos it wouldn't be his specialty) have to fight against Chaos.

A classic Western Gunslinger Trenchcoat Inquisitor in space with a bolt revolver would be sick. A Clint Eastwood like character who is pretty hardcore, talks in the gruff monotone, shoots first asks questions later, the full bit old fashioned bad ass.

Give him a Veteran Guardsman/Primaris Battle Psyker who's kind of quirky, kind of funny, and kind of scary would be cool. The kind of guy who could rip you apart with his mind but would rather just shoot you.

Give him a telepathic teenage girl for fan service and because she'd be mostly an noncombatant.

Then for the most cool member of the retinue cue his Adeptus Biologos Magos who is going to be the unfeeling savant of the group and have a stormbolter and mechandendrites. Almost no dialogue unless it involves killing aliens or random bits of info as they move by things. Ultimately he needs to speak so rarely that you almost forget he can talk... maybe one line per episode. Maybe.

Then for the last to members a female stormtrooper who is really zealous, and finally, the most important member, the Acolyte who will be a 16 year old duelist with a chainsword who's just as sharp with his mind as his sword arm.

Yeah, something like that.

Lostanddamned
10-05-2009, 15:15
You are correct. It isn't good enough.

I understand that Batman:TAS was animated in Japan. Much in the same way that the Japanese company Honda, had a factory in Britain for a long time - this doesnt make it a British car does it?

If I remeber correctly, Bruce Timm - the creator of Batman: TAS, is American, lists his influences as Jack Kirby, Harvey Kurtzman, Jim Steranko, John Buscema, Wally Wood, Frank Frazetta, Dan DeCarlo, and Alex Toth (Admittedly several characters were not designed by Timm, for example the aforementioned Mr Freeze, and the Riddler were designed by Mike Mignola.). He was also annoyed at several things done by some of the studios that Batman: TAS was outsourced to, such as changing the way Batman was drawn. So yes whilst it was "animated by the exact same animators that produced the animation styles I dislike" the characters and overall gothic design (the parts I explicitly stated I thought were advantageous to a Warhammer series that could be taken from Batman:TAS) were infact desiged with a western style with exclusivly western influences, very little anime input at all, it is simply as you said cheaper and more cost effective to have it animated overseas.

You also point out that due to the fact that I like Batman:TAS, I cannot dislike the other works by similar studios. Personally I think Guernica is an amazing work of art, wheras Dora Maar au Chat, by the same artist - appears to have a rear end for a face, and I am not a fan at all. I think this point can therefore be comprehensivly discarded.

All the examples of Japanese animation given has either been the admittedly discountable DBZ or Pokemon, or Stuff which is quite simply being gory as a substitute for actual adult content (like, y'know moral ambiguity or "no-happy-ending" syndrome)

What this boils down to is personal taste, you think the japanese anime style is the absolute pinnacle of wonderment, and I think that, given a reasonable budget and brief - with the correct input (Abnetts writing, whilst not my favourite - is actually quite adaptable to scripts, and possibly the artwork in the style of Colin MacNeil) would be an impressive and worthwhile work.

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 15:27
What this boils down to is personal taste, you think the japanese anime style is the absolute pinnacle of wonderment, and I think that, given a reasonable budget and brief - with the correct input (Abnetts writing, whilst not my favourite - is actually quite adaptable to scripts, and possibly the artwork in the style of Colin MacNeil) would be an impressive and worthwhile work.

No, I think people have illogical dislikes for japanese animation based on biases learned from poor material. I think Japanese ANIMATION is quite good (and from a technical standpoint IS better than American stuff). This 'anime style' you keep throwing around to try and discredit the entire industry however I do not like and never have. I am not a fan of DBZ or the other extremely visible forms of anime found in the west. I've never watched nor intend to watch it or any of the shows like it. However those are NOT the sum total of anime and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise. There are very distinct styles of anime, BESM being the most childish and least liked (by me at least). Just as Disney has several specific styles as I've cited several times.

I'm sorry, what would be a worthwhile work? Giving specific 40k imagery to a Japanese studio and asking them to make an animation of it? Or something else?

Because if it is the former then I've stated that myself at least twice in previous posts you've dismissed as me 'getting angrier and angrier'.

I'm not seeing exactly what it is you are complaining about. The spurious anime style does not exist as the sum total of anime, because it is a specific type of anime, not anime as a whole. So you dislike a specific genre of anime. Well I do too. In fact the SAME genre. It is not however, the ENTIRE anime industry.

EDIT: Your entire argument seems to be that you dislike this 'anime style' (which is the big eyes small mouth style I also dislike) and either refuse to classify anything not in that 'style' as anime (which is false) or declare that all animation from japan is like that. Anime is used to describe animation from Japan. That is all. There are several design styles that have become common to much of anime, but they do not define it. The term is and was always a label given to japanese animation to differentiate it from American animation. Just because you've decided to redefine what it means doesn't change that.

Nor does it change the fact that I don't like the sort of anime you are referring to. But that's because there are far more anime styles out there than your single 'anime style' that you dislike.

Pehaps you will disagree and argue semantics. The word is a technical definition of an animation industry in Japan. There are many words people use incorrectly in every day life but when discussing them we don't use the incorrect terminology. We don't call automobiles 'motas' because a motor is a part of an automobile, even if in every day use it can be used to describe a car to someone. Or shoota as a gun (despite it being the person firing the gun and not the gun itself). You may have decided that the word 'anime' only means stupid stories, giant eyes, sweat drops and all the stupidity that anime produced for children uses in Japan, but that's not what it means.

Hellebore

Lostanddamned
10-05-2009, 15:49
That was half a sentance. My fault for not proofreading, and going on a long tangent.

"I think that, given a reasonable budget and brief - with the correct input a 40k cartoon/animation from any studio would be an impressive and worthwhile work."

An illogical dislike for Japanese animation based on biases learnt from poor material?
No. I have seen the animations that are typically dragged out as "stand out of their genre"; Evangellion, Akira, Ghost in the Shell and they do not engage me I am trying to say that from my own personal viewpoint anime (or japanese animation as I was unaware that anime is infact a specific type which also encompasses all these millions of ideal subgenres, suitable for both adults, children and everything in between) is not the be all and end all of cartoons on tv.

In terms of a western cartoon that is adult, high quality and high production; how about American Dad - which is, in my opinion at least, Relatively funny, has very few jokes which fail, even when travelled across the pond (which is a sign that the actual writing and editing is well done and not country biased.) The animation is of a simple style, however it is consistenly well drawn and engaging, it also fits with the satire of the "all American cartoon" which American Dad is.

I also disagree with you that anything that has any tie to Japan is Japanese, as you seem to be stating with Batman:TAS - In that case as far as I can discern Japanese studios were simply cheaper for the quality required, and due to the high volume of episodes produced in a year multiple animation studios were required.

I never dismissed you as "getting angrier and angrier" I just noted that you have a tendancy to rather than adapt to arguments you simply repeat yourself, albeit eloquently, until any poster who chooses to take a viewpoint other than yours simply gives up and goes outside until you have stopped shouting.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
10-05-2009, 16:04
Genocyber OST - Genocide


Well, that was interesting. Actually, I take that back. That was uniquely weird and perverse.

Not, however, quite as disturbing as the ending of The Second Renaissance, somehow. Seemed like ick for the sake of ick.

And man, was it icky. *low whistle*

Hellebore
10-05-2009, 16:15
That was half a sentance. My fault for not proofreading, and going on a long tangent.

"I think that, given a reasonable budget and brief - with the correct input a 40k cartoon/animation from any studio would be an impressive and worthwhile work."


Ok. However as I said previously I'm pretty sure to get the same quality you'd get from a japanese company in America it would cost far more. Mainly because they'd have to invest in the infrastructure (like Jackson did for Massive in LotR). Whilst the infrastructure is already there in Japan because they've spent far longer producing it in far higher quantities than the US.



An illogical dislike for Japanese animation based on biases learnt from poor material?
No. I have seen the animations that are typically dragged out as "stand out of their genre"; Evangellion, Akira, Ghost in the Shell and they do not engage me I am trying to say that from my own personal viewpoint anime (or japanese animation as I was unaware that anime is infact a specific type which also encompasses all these millions of ideal subgenres, suitable for both adults, children and everything in between) is not the be all and end all of cartoons on tv.


Is this not perhaps a fault of the story and not the actual animation quality though? All my examples were the animation itself, not necessarily the story it depicted (although things like Berserk and Jin Roh are extremely dark stories that have a great deal in common with WFB and 40k respectively).



In terms of a western cartoon that is adult, high quality and high production; how about American Dad - which is, in my opinion at least, Relatively funny, has very few jokes which fail, even when travelled across the pond (which is a sign that the actual writing and editing is well done and not country biased.) The animation is of a simple style, however it is consistenly well drawn and engaging, it also fits with the satire of the "all American cartoon" which American Dad is.


I really enjoy American Dad. I believe I mentioned it previously (or perhaps Family Guy). I mentione them in a statement that said something like 'to get realistic animation of a consistently high production value you'd have to go to Japan because the only stuff that can compare to that is highly stylised animation like Family Guy et al'.

Stylisation makes it far easier to animate, it reduces the number of variables in a character and makes it really easy to replicate with high fidelity. When your characters consist of 3 colours and only a few distinct shapes you get consistent animation easily. The characters in GitS however, were far more complicated, actually wore different sets of clothes and equipment at least once an episode (or once every 2 episodes).

However the people that produce American Dad (which may be a Korean company these days, I think that the simpsons is produced in Korea now) have not shown whether they can produce a realistic violent animation. Characters in American dad aren't dynamic and the animation quality, whilst consistent, is extremely simple.



I also disagree with you that anything that has any tie to Japan is Japanese, as you seem to be stating with Batman:TAS - In that case as far as I can discern Japanese studios were simply cheaper for the quality required, and due to the high volume of episodes produced in a year multiple animation studios were required.


Well, Anime is simply the word used to describe animation produced in Japan (by Westerners). I was referring to QUALITY of animation (which is dated even now) which is generally a hallmark of anime.

As far as I know this is to determine if anime is suitable to produce a 40k series. To me, that is entirely on the technical side because the story has no bearing on the animation quality or consistency. It could be about frogs going to war, the animators will produce it the same way. Thus I point to many animes that have extremely well animated sequences and very high production values as proof that the animation quality is exactly what it needs to be to produce a great 40k tv series.




I never dismissed you as "getting angrier and angrier" I just noted that you have a tendancy to rather than adapt to arguments you simply repeat yourself, albeit eloquently, until any poster who chooses to take a viewpoint other than yours simply gives up and goes outside until you have stopped shouting.

I only repeat myself when there hasn't actually been a counter to the central point I've made. If an argument was put forth that discredited my own, then I would either accept that as the most likely argument, or attempt to find a different set of arguments to support my point.

Which was and still is that anime is a perfect medium to produce an animated 40k show, because the animation companies are far more sophisticated and skilled and the production values shown in the anime I cited are far better than anything produced in the west.

For instance, I wouldn't approach a company that specialises in BESM to produce a 40k series, any more than I would approach the makers of American Dad unless they also had material that proved they could produce a show in a realistic fashion that 40k demands (i would hate to see 40k in the aweful star wars stylisation). There are plenty of japanese animation companies that have produced such shows, whilst there aren't any that I can think of with that kind of production quality in the US. Thus I would go with those who can actually prove they can do what you want. At the moment no animation companies in the US produce shows that can be given as examples, whilst there are plenty in Japan because of the wider penetration of animation in the culture.

Does that make more sense?

Hellebore

Poseidal
10-05-2009, 16:25
No. I have seen the animations that are typically dragged out as "stand out of their genre"; Evangellion, Akira, Ghost in the Shell and they do not engage me I am trying to say that from my own personal viewpoint anime (or japanese animation as I was unaware that anime is infact a specific type which also encompasses all these millions of ideal subgenres, suitable for both adults, children and everything in between) is not the be all and end all of cartoons on tv.


I would never start with those. As a watcher of Japanese shows, those are to me somewhat pretentious and not really that great; they don't stand out in their genre as such. And it's due to the story and writing, not the visual style.

I would probably recommend the 1st or 2nd Gundam series (that is the Original Series Movies that cut a lot of the filler of the series and Zeta Gundam); they may be about giant robots but they do a better job of having a futuristic 'war movie' than a lot of counterparts.

Another angle, and maybe something more recent is Honey and Clover, though it's a bit girly.

EDIT: Jin-Roh is basically Death Korps of Krieg: The Animation in terms of visual style.

kikkoman
10-05-2009, 16:52
I just think its important however to stay away from traditional styling. Warhammer has a British/German flavor to it, and that needs to permeate the material. The art needs to draw heavily from its material.

Yeah, this is key, very important. I really love Games Workshop's design aesthetic.



If you gave a Japanese company the picture you post above, they would faithfully recreate it.
Hellebore
Yup. When I was littler I remember thinking "hey how come this episode of ninja turtles, gargoyles, batman, etc. just looks better/more like how it should than others" Later we made the connection with the string of Japanese names that showed up in credits after these hahah.
I think a competent Japanese studio could make 40k look like 40k.




All the examples of Japanese animation given has either been the admittedly discountable DBZ or Pokemon, or Stuff which is quite simply being gory as a substitute for actual adult content (like, y'know moral ambiguity or "no-happy-ending" syndrome)

hahah, nah, most examples have been the "hay there's more than DBZ/pokemon!!" type. I like those shows though
DBZ, there's a reason it's such a big hit world wide, it's 100's of episodes of nonstop fighting. For kids in the western world that was something new. The story of Dragonball is more something you read though, many episodes of the anime are pretty low budget and just filler. Toriyama Akira (the creator) could probably design some awesome vehicles for Imperial Guard.

I haven't really been satisfied with any non GW depiction of Warhammer and 40k though.
DoW, it had terrible models (not polygon count, just designs), the more they deviated from the GW design the worse they got.
They got the idea, but not the fine details of it. "An ork is a big green roadwarrior thug guy", idea gets across, yeah, but in the details, man the faces were terrible.
DoW2. Did a much better job, but not 'perfect'. I've never seen a more uninteresting warboss design than in DoW2. The Kommando nob turned out good though, and the tyranids were mostly good (I should find out who designed what). The intro though... it was a pretty dumb feeling fight (super ninja warriors being surprised by a gigantic smoke spewing sarcophagus, roasting one with a flamer in the other hand is pretty neat... but doesn't feel right for the Space Marines, more like smoething a killa kan would do).

Mark of Chaos-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KphTsC3x5M&feature=PlayList&p=54E02ADE1AEDF46E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=59
actually, that was a pretty good looking game. The CG intro looked cool and pretty close to how WHF is supposed to. Orcs look like GW orks, nice.
Done by Digic Studios
http://www.digicpictures.com/dataeng/pager.htm from Hungary

Warhammer online's CG intro also looks good, the orcs look like orcs. The elves though... they seem more generic. Chaos marauder looks great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOOx7voShBc
Weirdly, it's the same studio that did the Dawn of War intro, they really got their act together with doing greenskins this time.

yabbadabba
10-05-2009, 16:57
No. I undertsand the appeal but no, bad idea.

GeneralDisaster
10-05-2009, 17:10
Yabbadabba has spoken, and as such the debate is over.

Yabbadabba wins.

kikkoman
10-05-2009, 18:04
Ah, I got a different experience from it. I was probably 8 and thought "whoah..."
I was watchin' and reading Dragon Ball, Fist of the North Star, Yu Yu Hakusho and other hot blooded, gutsy fightin' stories, and I figure...
yeah, Warhammer has the same appeal as watching Goku and Freeza slug it out over an exploding planet, it has that kind of purest fighty "whoah!" feeling.


Warhammer is about brightly colored superhumans fighting across vast battlefields with giant super robots with mega vulcan laser fists as a mega super ultraman covered in skulls shouts "FOR THE EMPEROR" while the man covered in skulls and spikes shouts "NO NOT FOR THE EMPEROR!!" and they punch each other as everyone else shoots offscreen.

All designed to look incredibly cool and solid.

Maybe to sum it up... I came for the BRIGHTCOLORSSCREAMINGMEGABATTLING, I stayed for the GRIMDARK (the 40k universe is so fun)

I enjoy the aesthetics of a space marine, bloodthrister, zaku-II and pikachu equally.

Col. Tartleton
10-05-2009, 18:24
Well I mean the Eldar aren't "we're better than you" in the blatant way, but they are supposed to be that olden nobility that is dying out. They're pretty much better than us at everything, they were brought low by their own over indulgence and now live in a sort of penitence and have given up their materialism and have moved on to a sort of Renaissance. They're very cultured and even the simplest baker puts more effort into baking a loaf of bread then most artists put in a sculpture. I can imagine Eldar food as being rich tasting to the point you can taste the emotions of the chef as he made them because he literally crafted the food with that kind of love. Everything the Eldar touch is a masterpiece of sorts. They do view us as crude in comparison but they do realize the galaxy is by and large ours now and that they're simply drawing out the death of their species as long as they can to leave some sort of lasting beauty in a galaxy that is probably doomed to oblivion.

(What I said was about the Eldar as a whole, so I was taking an Imperialistic view of Dark and Craftworld Eldar as just being Eldar. You won't disagree that the Dark Eldar are b***ards will you?)

Yes on the surface 40k is just:
Calgar: "Your a treacherous heretic Abaddon!"
Abaddon: "Well your a girly headed ponce Calgar, why don't you go punch an Avatar or something!"

But the undertones of actual idk... literature, are what does it for me. I mean yes those eight foot ubermensch are really cool because they have tank armor and pistols that compare to IFV chainguns in caliber and lethality, but there's more to it then that. Warhammer really isn't for children. Its marketed to them and its poorly done a lot of the time, but the core idea is not for the average person. Well perhaps not the core idea. I guess the core idea is the crude stuff you get in a black library book of the Ultramarine Codex, but that's not I would ever want to see on TV.

Warhammer is pure violence in the "its purely violence for the sake of violence" not the "the violence is pure for the sake of morality" way. There are no good guys its just two factions of severely insane people hacking each other to death with rusted cutlery in the bombed out ruins of a once beautiful utopia.

Lamhirh
10-05-2009, 19:00
The fights alone would be breathtaking.

Not to mention the space battles would be jaw-dropping as well ;):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipr3imGopc8


Eldar in particular would do well in an anime, they are already very anime in physique and prowess.

Ditto. Check out my anime elfdar :p..

Poseidal
10-05-2009, 19:16
Ah, I got a different experience from it. I was probably 8 and thought "whoah..."
I was watchin' and reading Dragon Ball, Fist of the North Star, Yu Yu Hakusho and other hot blooded, gutsy fightin' stories, and I figure...
yeah, Warhammer has the same appeal as watching Goku and Freeza slug it out over an exploding planet, it has that kind of purest fighty "whoah!" feeling.


Warhammer is about brightly colored superhumans fighting across vast battlefields with giant super robots with mega vulcan laser fists as a mega super ultraman covered in skulls shouts "FOR THE EMPEROR" while the man covered in skulls and spikes shouts "NO NOT FOR THE EMPEROR!!" and they punch each other as everyone else shoots offscreen.

All designed to look incredibly cool and solid.

Maybe to sum it up... I came for the BRIGHTCOLORSSCREAMINGMEGABATTLING, I stayed for the GRIMDARK (the 40k universe is so fun)

I enjoy the aesthetics of a space marine, bloodthrister, zaku-II and pikachu equally.

The mightiest.

I think people get different impressions when they are younger. Batman TAS seemed really good because you grew up with it; it's writing is no better than Yu Yu Hakusho and it's actually a lot less dark than the latter.

I enjoy both but then again I grew up with both. I saw shows like those as a kid and saw the awesome; the same with Warhammer.

The other way I see a WH40k series is an action series (with comic moments, this is VERY important) made of pure manliness.

Awilla the Hun
10-05-2009, 20:50
Personally, after thinking it over again, I have two options:

EITHER my insane Barry Lyndonesque styled masterpiece that would be better as a film

OR

A Sharpe style thing with better production values. Based on Ciaphas Cain, preferably.

Iracundus
10-05-2009, 21:07
I would probably recommend the 1st or 2nd Gundam series (that is the Original Series Movies that cut a lot of the filler of the series and Zeta Gundam); they may be about giant robots but they do a better job of having a futuristic 'war movie' than a lot of counterparts.


Try Legend of the Galactic Heroes. It holds the record for longest OVA and portrays war at a commander and individual level very well...without any giant robots at all.

Gensuke626
10-05-2009, 21:42
Alright, I need someone to explain something to me. I've read numerous posts on the subject of Anime vs Asian Animation studio, and amidst it all I noticed a growing trend calling for the 40k universe to be portrayed as a Grimdark Hellhole where there is no hope. There is a call for it to be "Disturbing, Frightening, but interesting" and there seems to be an equally great call for there to be excessive amounts of violence and gore.

I need someone to explain to me why these things are Necessary in portraying the 40k universe. From my standpoint, they're not. You can have stories that capture the feel and look of 40k without going out of your way to shock and alienate your audience. Anyone who thinks that followers of Slaanesh need to be naked on camera and constantly holding orgies aboard flying war brothels has a serious misunderstanding of Slaanesh's true nature and are also the people that would aid in keeping 40k from becoming a TV show. Same goes for anyone who thinks that Followers of Khorne need to tear their opponents apart with their teeth and feast on an explosion of blood and gore on screen.

Hyperviolence doesn't need to be on screen to make for awesome visuals. Look at Nolan's The Dark Knight. Think back on it. How violent was it? I'd say very violent, many people die. But it earned a PG13 rating. Know why? Because they used old Hitchcock-eqsue filming techniques of having the violence off screen and showing the reactions of those viewing the violence.

The show can be done in a million different ways, but we need to find ways to sneak things past the censors. Case in point, this clip from Avatar: The Last Airbender. I think this was an AMV but it says the audio's been disabled. Still. Watch the clip. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yph5y-AVw0E) Look at the dance. Notice how it starts courtly, then progresses into Acrobatics, then finally a display of martial prowess? Look at the faces of the people watching, and look at Aang and Katara at the end of the dance. Really look at their faces and their body language. I didn't catch it at first, but someone pointed it out to me...this is basically a symbolic sex scene. In a very, very popular Kid's cartoon.

Sorros
10-05-2009, 22:12
The money required to make such a film would never be recovered by it being released as anime. Its a niche, that most Westerners consider to be fairly pathetic, or just flat out dislike it (myself included). It doesn't matter about how 'deep' the messages can be, etc, the style of animation is just not good imo, and many others agree. I think that the cutscenes from DoW2 were fine, although I would be more in favour of a good director making it a real actor movie.

kikkoman
10-05-2009, 22:36
I didn't catch it at first, but someone pointed it out to me...this is basically a symbolic sex scene. In a very, very popular Kid's cartoon.

hmmmm, so what does it mean in the WWF when sweaty muscly men in tights toss each other with their thighs in efforts to mount and pin the other one helpless eh?



Its a niche, that most Westerners consider to be fairly pathetic

ah c'mon man, we play with little plastic men that cost more than a drug habit, we're not allowed to call anything else pathetic! :D

tho'... hey, did you watch Dark Knight? You know they had an animated movie coincide with it's theatrical release?

Gotham Knight, it was a bunch of shorts by acclaimed Hollywood writers... and Japanese studios.
DC comics, which is a great deal responsible for the Western comic book/cartoon action aesthetic... decided a bunch of Japanese studios would be the ones to animate Batman.

Why would D.C. comics choose a style that can only possibly appeal to a niche, and is widely regarded as pathetic?
The money required to make such a film would never be recovered by it being released as anime, right?


hahah, it's like the 80's all over again. Don't buy Jap crap! Honda and Toyota are inferior to good ol' Chrystler, GM, n' Ford.

Gensuke626
10-05-2009, 22:43
hmmmm, so what does it mean in the WWF when sweaty muscly men in tights toss each other with their thighs in efforts to mount and pin the other one helpless eh?


Obviously it's the same as when big burly, sweaty men in body armor pile on top of each other just so they can get their hands on a brown, oblong ball.

My point was that people in this thread seem to insist that we alienate viewers by showing them gory violence and pornographic images associated with Chaos. We Don't, and we can still make it feel like 40k.

Col. Tartleton
11-05-2009, 00:23
Obviously it's the same as when big burly, sweaty men in body armor pile on top of each other just so they can get their hands on a brown, oblong ball.

My point was that people in this thread seem to insist that we alienate viewers by showing them gory violence and pornographic images associated with Chaos. We Don't, and we can still make it feel like 40k.

Well we could watch a drama about members of the Imperial Military and their lives in between deployments which could span years. It could be very good but I doubt it would draw the crowds of massively violent animations. :(

I think it needs to be a thinking type of thing with the massive violence drawing you in and illustrating points, but not just violence/war porn, because that only holds interest for a season or so.

Gensuke626
11-05-2009, 00:25
Well we could watch a drama about members of the Imperial Military and their lives in between deployments which could span years. It could be very good but I doubt it would draw the crowds of massively violent animations. :(

I think it needs to be a thinking type of thing with the massive violence drawing you in and illustrating points, but not just violence/war porn, because that only holds interest for a season or so.

I'm not saying that we need to cut out the violence entirely. I'm saying that if we want it to be showable on TV it should be Band of Brothers level violence, and not The Hills Have Eyes. Excessive violence tends to be interesting for a short length of time, while explosive violence punctuating an interesting story serves to keep interest without boring the audience or driving them away.

My original post on this subject was about getting stuff past the censors. I never said we should kowtow to their outrageous demands! 40k wouldn't be complete without guardsmen dying in droves and Bolter rounds blowing holes in people. I'm just suggesting that instead of showing the bolter round exploding the heretic Dr. Manhatton style, it merely leave a blackened smoking crater in the heretic's chest after we get a shot of the hero firing rounds at something that's just off screen.

Finn
11-05-2009, 00:53
Well the animatrix was received well.

Having said all that, I'd prefer a live action series in the mould of The Outer Limits. A one hour episode exploring one story, which each episode being a different story. That way you can get a broad swathe of stories without losing the 40kness of the whole thing.

You earn internetz pointz for the Outer Limits reference. While it would be neat, in an ideal world it would just be a spin-off from a series that was already successful. I feel like the introduction to the 40kverse needs to be more meaty, a miniseries or film at the least.

As for the Animatrix - it isn't your typical "anime". A lot of people seem to associate poor plot lines and terrible characters as soon as you say the word, but if done properly an animated series using the anime style would be OK. Note I only say "OK", not "awesome". It would be OK because you could find artists (hell, enough of them exist floating around on these forums to get a good start on an episode, probably), and the plot lines and characters already exist with a wealth of material. So an anime 40k wouldn't have to suffer from the biggest detriment to the style.

That being said, I agree with what someone (I believe it was the guy with the 'head shot' avatar...) said about the 40k art style in the codices and so forth: it has a very European, especially Middle Ages pre- or early- Renaissance feel to it, and any animated or CGI series needs to reflect that fact. Anime couldn't do the grimdark justice, you really need a style with a Gothic/Dark Ages feel.

I also think a straight-to-DVD release would be OK. It could be advertised in retail outlets and sold there, as well as on the GW site, allowing them to gain some market presence through gradual word of mouth and so forth, which would allow for future TV or theater enjoyment.

EDIT:
Regarding the couple of posts above mine, as far as getting stuff past the censors in terms of violence and all that jazz (in order to portray the grimdark!), you wouldn't have to include violence so much. Ever seen a post-apocalyptic film? ;) I feel like just having a general atmosphere of destruction and degradation, or the aftermath (which continues for eternity...) would be plenty. I would even go so far as to say it would be MORE effective at painting an accurate picture of the 40kverse's mood.

Necrotyr18
11-05-2009, 01:56
Have it be a sitcom. You have a Hive Tyrant, Ork Mekboy, Tau Etheral in a Condo and the Inquisitor is the land lord. Imagine the possibilities.

Hellebore
11-05-2009, 01:58
Well, you could introduce the series with a miniseries. The outer limits was more as an example of story format. One off stories every episode so that all the parts of 40k that exist can be explored, from the daily rituals of a fire warrior to the machinations of a chaos lord etc.

With regards to violence, weapons like chainswords aren't exactly subtle. it would be hard to create a film where someone is hit with one and it did no more damage than a steel bar.

Hellebore

Corpse
11-05-2009, 03:03
Forgive the heresy link.

The art style Anime I would prefer for the 40k series:
(Jin-Roh is the movie)
http://www.anilinkz.com/movies-and-ova/jin-roh-the-wolf-brigade/

You'l think instantly "Death Korps!" when you see the movie, all of them using heavy stubbers in carapace armor(armour? - I forget the context which is used openly cross USA/Europe).

It should center around three different races with three main characters, one representing each race. To keep it fresh, a guardsmen conscripted at age 9(humans grow to be 7 feet tall on average IIRC) that gets inducted into the space marines after a hearty 1 year service, before the cut off date to become a marine (I think age 12 is the limit).

Second race would of course be eldar, and reveal hints and vague descriptions of events surrounding the past. Intrigue and sort of mysterious feeling to that side. Whereas the conscript would be bloody-violent and action packed.

The last one would perhaps be Tau. (Gotta keep with the civil characters, unless its orks and made as a comedy relief to cover the final entertainment perk, I cant imagine another Jar-Jar binks for 40k) With tau, there would be forbidden love (they have 4 sub races in Tau, disallowed to crossbreed by order of execution and extermination of the child, just as bad as being a mutant in the imperium). Political, controversial and always at battle how to define the greater good and how to try and enforce it on others properly, etc.

At the end of the series, all three will converge, the eldar trying to save the Tau, stopping their invasion of the imperial planet, while the conscript(now a marine) makes his planetfall to be the one who kills the tau main character, for a shocking end nobody will expect (something else happens besides the eldar visions).

It would make for a real good series IMO. Maybe make it into theaters like Cowboy Bebop did back in 1999-2004 IIRC.

Inquisitor Engel
11-05-2009, 03:09
You could make a 40k Movie with the same budget that Stargate Atlantis or BSG had, easily, especially if you centered it around an Inquisitor.

hush88
11-05-2009, 06:00
The only thing i gotta say is that whatever form it comes out in, if it is rated G or PG13 or any of the equalivent, then we would have thousands of forums threads decrying it.

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 07:32
I wouldn't like a gorefest. You can make the violence suitable for wider audiences... 80s cartoons are really violent and those were aimed at children/teens.

Sorros
11-05-2009, 10:19
hmmmm, so what does it mean in the WWF when sweaty muscly men in tights toss each other with their thighs in efforts to mount and pin the other one helpless eh?




ah c'mon man, we play with little plastic men that cost more than a drug habit, we're not allowed to call anything else pathetic! :D

Most people don't play with little plastic men :p
[/quote]

tho'... hey, did you watch Dark Knight? You know they had an animated movie coincide with it's theatrical release?

Gotham Knight, it was a bunch of shorts by acclaimed Hollywood writers... and Japanese studios.
DC comics, which is a great deal responsible for the Western comic book/cartoon action aesthetic... decided a bunch of Japanese studios would be the ones to animate Batman.

Why would D.C. comics choose a style that can only possibly appeal to a niche, and is widely regarded as pathetic?
The money required to make such a film would never be recovered by it being released as anime, right?

D.C has made other bad films, so I wouldn't be surprised there.


hahah, it's like the 80's all over again. Don't buy Jap crap! Honda and Toyota are inferior to good ol' Chrystler, GM, n' Ford.
Has nothing to do with 'jap crap', GM and Ford suck, as do most American cars. If you want to make a GOOD movie, that takes time and money. Most Americans (one of the largest entertainment audiences) dislike anime, and would see a preview an instantly be turned away.


They could make a good real-time actor movie, but it would be quite a challenge. The storyline could be new, sort of like I had suggested earlier and Corpse said--3 races, fighting for one planet, with the Eldar, Guard, and Tau. Tau firewarrior, fighting for the Greater Good; Guardsman, fighting for his emperor or be shot by the commisar; Eldar Dire Avenger, honourable warrior fighting to save his race. And finally, a climatic ending with the planet being Exterminatus'd.

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 11:08
Most Americans (one of the largest entertainment audiences) dislike anime, and would see a preview an instantly be turned away.
Again, it can be produced by Japanese animators and doesn't have to look anything like the traditional BESM sort of character style.

On the picture from Jin-Roh I posted, would you say that is immediately identifiable as similar to 'BESM' type character designs?

In fact, modern western animation is far more similar to that style of character than something like Jin-Roh is.

Magelite
11-05-2009, 12:13
A mini-series based off the first couple of Cain novels would be rock, and, I think, not be too over the top for most audiences.

BigRob
12-05-2009, 08:03
There is plenty of violence in TV its just carefully managed. A suitable level of violence can be attained with a 12A or even a PG certificate in the UK. The fellowship of the ring was a PG and it features orcs being beheaded quite graphically by the fellowship in Moria. Animation can take this even further than a live action film/TV series would.

The budget will always be the deciding factor in these projects unless you happen to know a multi millionaire with a keen interest in Warhammer to fund it. With the disasters of previous "game to film" adaptations (remember Dungeons and Dragons?!) no big company would be willing to touch it. I've seen some fantastic fan made stuff online (something done in the same way that "The Hunt for Gollum" was would be great) but with the GW ban on fan fiction after the Damnatus debacle it won't happen. That leaves a few old TV trailers for space crusade and that short film made for gamesday as well as a few university made shorts (like the CGI of the retribution battlecruiser duking it out with the battlestar galactica, the enterprise and a star destroyer).

These threads come up once a month and usually end up with the same ideas in them, either an imperial guard film (band of brothers/starship troopers/sharpe in space) or a bunch of inappropriate chaos chainsaw films. It's not helped by the Black Library books that could be adapted being quite recognisable as either sharp in space, starship troopers or flashman.

Master Stark
12-05-2009, 12:43
Well the animatrix was received well.

I think the only way to really break the 40K galaxy to the uninitiated viewer is through an animatrix style movie, comprising short clips to each make a point and describe something about the galaxy.

kikkoman
12-05-2009, 16:28
D.C has made other bad films, so I wouldn't be surprised there.
don't dodge the question, we're arguing here. DC chose the style because they know it's popular and has wide appeal. Gotham Knight sold great in DVD and BluRay. The most popular domestic action cartoon in the US is done in an intentional animu style, GIJoe is being animated in a jappy way, etc. etc. etc.


Has nothing to do with 'jap crap', GM and Ford suck, as do most American cars.
that's the point, hahah

If you want to make a GOOD movie, that takes time and money.
and it can't be Anime!

Most Americans (one of the largest entertainment audiences) dislike anime, and would see a preview an instantly be turned away.
jap crap, exactly!
Most Americans don't like animated movies if it's not talking animals being witty though
Most that vehemently hate it are... well either see it threatening their own interests somehow ('bah, Battlestar Galactica is a FAAAR more politically intriguing deep complex morally challenging show than blah blah blah'), or are 'anime fans' themselves ("Oh you like ____?? Yeah, I GREW OUT OF THAT and watch ____ now!")
I dunno, where did you grow up? I've known lots of pretty normal people who enjoyed anime, animation in general, most don't make any divides by country. People grew up with Transformers and Saint Seiya, or talking about how awesome Gundam Wing and Dragon Ball Z was.



Again, it can be produced by Japanese animators and doesn't have to look anything like the traditional BESM sort of character style.
Hey, you're arguing, you're never suppose to give ground or compromise, that is WEAKNESS, its trasmitted through the internet to your ENEMIES.




There is plenty of violence in TV its just carefully managed. A suitable level of violence can be attained with a 12A or even a PG certificate in the UK. The fellowship of the ring was a PG and it features orcs being beheaded quite graphically by the fellowship in Moria. Animation can take this even further than a live action film/TV series would.

Hmmm... I can see it now
"IN THE NEXT EPISODE OF SPACE MARINE: THE NECRONS ATTACK.... AGAIN"
good ol' robot badguys, you can shoot them all you want.

I think figuring out the target audience for any kind of production like this would be the more difficult question. How many 40k fans are there worldwide? How do you attract an audience unfamiliar to 40k?

Poseidal
12-05-2009, 21:51
Hey, you're arguing, you're never suppose to give ground or compromise, that is WEAKNESS, its trasmitted through the internet to your ENEMIES.

Hmm, yes, you're right. Perhaps something like this:

I've never seen any show, animated or live action that's manlier than Fist of the North Star. That show's style is perfect for 40k.

They just seem to ooze manliness from every bodily orifice. I sometime feel like I'll get pregnant just by watching it.

Actually, 40k to me still seems very 80s. I wouldn't want it in a modern style, but something more wedged in the 80s for that Rogue Trader feel. Still plenty grimdark, but topped up with some premium 80sness.

Sabotage!
12-05-2009, 22:09
Did anyone ever see the new CGI Gundam series, my buddy is a huge Gundam fan and showed it to me and I thought It looked really good. Not to say it would be the best art-style, but I think it would be a suitable choice.

BigRob
13-05-2009, 07:19
Hmmm... I can see it now
"IN THE NEXT EPISODE OF SPACE MARINE: THE NECRONS ATTACK.... AGAIN"
good ol' robot badguys, you can shoot them all you want.

I think figuring out the target audience for any kind of production like this would be the more difficult question. How many 40k fans are there worldwide? How do you attract an audience unfamiliar to 40k?

Remeber as long as its not something that can be attributed directly then its ok. This inlcudeds all non humans so Orks, Necons and Tyranids can be blown up in equal measure. Eldar and chaos marines do look very human like so its a good job they all wear helmets and full body armour :D The same is true for those pesky guardsmen, as long as they are all wearing full face helmets, gas masks etc then its ok. (see Disneys "Atlantis") or have different coloured skin. The only time voilence towards regular people can be justified is if its the heroes getting beaten.

You'd be surprised by how much animation can get away with without being a "grown up" film. The big problem with the 40K film will be getting the feel and people have to accept that any tv or film made about warhammer WILL BE a marketing ploy and so will have to be aimed at kiddies. GW make it perfectly clear that their marketing policies and WD magazine are aimed at kids and newbies so they won't care that a group of older "veterens" are complaining that its not gory enough, the guardsmans cap is the wrong way round or that its always about the ultramarines.

Lamhirh
13-05-2009, 07:45
Actually, 40k to me still seems very 80s. I wouldn't want it in a modern style, but something more wedged in the 80s for that Rogue Trader feel. Still plenty grimdark, but topped up with some premium 80sness.

Cutting edge animation but with all the quirks that made Rogue Trader great, including alien hair band pirates and flipsy from captain simian...awesome :D! A grimdark version of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresponsible_Captain_Tylor) and here's the opening theme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aJHw6WZ-PQ

Pholostan
13-05-2009, 08:14
I don't think it will happen, but if it happens it will probably be a dumb kids show anyway. So I hope it don't happen.

On the other hand... IF it happened I would like to see a show with some writing. I don't care if the acting and/or special effect isn't top notch, but I cant stand all those shows that assume I'm a ***** and have no story whatsoever. And there are a massive amount of those. Not another one, please?


Have it be a sitcom. You have a Hive Tyrant, Ork Mekboy, Tau Etheral in a Condo and the Inquisitor is the land lord. Imagine the possibilities.

I like that idea. When does it air? :D

Wolf Sgt Kirke
13-05-2009, 09:47
why not turn Eisenhorn, Ravenor or the Gaunts Ghosts series into TV films like Sharpe? i think it woould be possible, i mean look at the production values on things like 'Heroes' or even 'Doctor Who'.

Dr. Hellbeast
13-05-2009, 09:54
I would hope that any possible 40K TV show would not be handled by the team that just crapped out the new Knight Rider series.

Jesus, that show stank the place out when I gave it 20 minutes last night. :mad:

Satan
13-05-2009, 10:21
I think one of our regular posters has some sort of quote he likes to put forth whenever this subject arises. Reading the first page felt like reading all those threads all over again.

To add my pov to the subject, I hope to god any feature of 40k is not produced/directed/written by americans (hollywood). Unless it's Ron D moore. And I would like to see it produced for a european audience, in the format of the BBC preferably.

Abacus
13-05-2009, 10:28
Dear god, when I saw this thread, I was reminded of that horrid straight-to-vhs adventure GW put out in the 90s.

The horror...

Nazerth
13-05-2009, 10:50
You know, this is a topic I think about a lot while I sit there and enter numbers into a computer all day. I think the problem is that everyone thinks that a really big, epic movie somehow explaining the 40k Universe would "work". I disagree.

While the Horus heresy would be awesome on the big screen, it is just too open to interpretation, and would be impossible to cover in basically less than 3 movies.

Now, a tv series, NOT from the point of a guardsman would be good. A Rogue Trader and his ship and his quirky crew on a quest to find STCs from a 10 000 year old map along the outer reaches of the Imperium I think would be an excellent concept. You can draw the crew from various different places in the imperium, you don't have to film difficult (read: expensive) massive battle scenes every episode. And you can have a fair amount of alien races since Rogue Traders deal with them in the outer areas, plus I think an episode with the ship's tech acolyte and his bumbling servitors trying to deal with a Hrud infestation would be rather entertaining.

Also, it is much, much, much easier to explain things when you can have a group of people visit ruins than you can during the battle that caused those ruins.

And finally, there is NO reason for a Space Marine character to exist. But they can still come across Space Marines so every marine fanboy can **** their pants for that episode :rolleyes:

Lamhirh
13-05-2009, 16:44
Have it be a sitcom. You have a Hive Tyrant, Ork Mekboy, Tau Etheral in a Condo and the Inquisitor is the land lord. Imagine the possibilities.

Sounds like an adaptation of this :D:

http://darealwurld40k.deviantart.com/art/DRW40k-11-83159753

http://darealwurld40k.deviantart.com/art/DRW40k-18-92774676

Here's an idea, they could feature 40K spoof shorts at the end of each grimdark Rogue Trader episode. They did something similar for 'Record of Lodoss War'.

Carlos
13-05-2009, 18:22
Anime or GTFO.

Horus38
13-05-2009, 19:04
These threads always descend into a "Its gotta be an 18 gorefest with naked deamonettes and lesbian battle sisters while spacemarines rip peoples heads off" which while fun will not help sell models.

I'd definitely watch that!!

To the OP: Interesting idea, A LOT of potential, hard to implement though.

Emperor's Grace
13-05-2009, 20:15
I agree, Dead Space is 80% the way there. The overall works, its obviously just a matter of making it look that much more 40k. It has to resemble the art of 40k and that will be hard to illustrate because its both stylized and highly realistic.

I also think an Inquisitor and retinue would be good because then he could move alongside the other Imperial stuff and fight against the aliens, and then accidentally (being and Ordo Xenos it wouldn't be his specialty) have to fight against Chaos.

A classic Western Gunslinger Trenchcoat Inquisitor in space with a bolt revolver would be sick. A Clint Eastwood like character who is pretty hardcore, talks in the gruff monotone, shoots first asks questions later, the full bit old fashioned bad ass.

Give him a Veteran Guardsman/Primaris Battle Psyker who's kind of quirky, kind of funny, and kind of scary would be cool. The kind of guy who could rip you apart with his mind but would rather just shoot you.

Give him a telepathic teenage girl for fan service and because she'd be mostly an noncombatant.

Then for the most cool member of the retinue cue his Adeptus Biologos Magos who is going to be the unfeeling savant of the group and have a stormbolter and mechandendrites. Almost no dialogue unless it involves killing aliens or random bits of info as they move by things. Ultimately he needs to speak so rarely that you almost forget he can talk... maybe one line per episode. Maybe.

Then for the last to members a female stormtrooper who is really zealous, and finally, the most important member, the Acolyte who will be a 16 year old duelist with a chainsword who's just as sharp with his mind as his sword arm.

Yeah, something like that.

Basically, "Galaxy Rangers"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_the_Galaxy_Rangers

I loved that show...

I have to say, if they took that and mixed it with Stargate, they could probably do a great show (animated or not) by ejecting most of the "extreme" chaos bits and focusing a Rogue Trader vessel exploring the frontier, meeting/killing alien civs, and mild chaos weirdness.

Sort of Firefly, but bigger, and with a marine company in the hold :)

Not that I think they'll do this money wise...

SimonL
13-05-2009, 22:00
[QUOTE][Sort of Firefly, but bigger, and with a marine company in the hold
/QUOTE]

I just soiled myself at the awesome.

Col. Tartleton
13-05-2009, 22:34
I mean ultimately it could even be sort of a there is still some hope version of Star Trek. Star Trek was about a group of good people trying to explore, interact, and build relations with aliens in a show of good will. It was about what the world could be like.

This could be a similar vein of show but in a much less optimistic setting. Its warhammer 40k, its gonna be dark and its not gonna be pretty, but a sort of "The Law is written to protect the people" kind of Inquisitor is going to have moments where he will leave his comfort zone in order to be... Fair and rational.

I mean the show will have its shudder moments when the heroes are forced into doing something they hoped they didn't have to, like Exterminatus or on a less drastic scale, a fight against people who are loyal but are following illegitimate orders.

An Inquisitor trying to talk a hot shot Commissar down from killing a guardsman for something that is totally unreasonable and the Commissar still doing it would happen, but there would be consequences for the Commissar. A bit of moral justice would go a long way. A lone Inquisitor trying hard to make a difference in a world where "just shoot them" is the first solution on everyone's mind. A man who wants things to get better for his people and wants to see peace between the stars. He'll be mocked all along the way and situations will put him back a few steps, but his companions and his deepest convictions will keep him on the track. He will fall off track every so often but he will find his way back to his mission.

Ten years of interesting programming easy if it got some fan support to keep it on TV.

SimonL
13-05-2009, 23:21
Eisenhorn (as others have suggested) would make an excellent show. There's enough hope and positive aspects to make it interesting. Plenty of moral debates, ethics, etc.

CordovaLemonSlayer
22-05-2009, 01:19
What really needs to be done to make it great is, make something thats different. I mean, keep all the "Grim Darkness of the Far Future." stuff in. Its got to have great actors and
wicked CGI. And dont forget about a great storyline too. Good storlines are often about inquisitors, so they should stuff about the Different Ordo's of the inquisition.

Pooky
22-05-2009, 03:44
C'mon, you know it'd be cool. It could easily explain and explore the 40k universe better then a two hour movie. It wouldn't have to be about a one single race, it could alternate but stick to the same plot line. I think it would rock!

So long as it doesn't degenerate into the generic "Bad-guys-form-a-plant-to-take-over-the-world-and-good-guys-save-the-day-while-saying-cheesy-one-liners". Kinda like how GI Joe and He man went down...

I think a really good flash animation or, better yet, CGI would be awesome... Maybe not anime. I know for myself I would want it R rated. That's only because I want to see the blood, guts, sex (and sexually related themes), swearing, drinking, smoking, guts, blood, sex... You get the picture. I do understand that the hobby is aimed at people aged 13, but there are a good portion of hobbiests are older than that.

I think it should be done from the perspective of the Imperium. So NOT JUST Space Marines or the IG or the =][=. I would also not want Chaos to be the generic "bad guys" either, like I said above. If it had some decent writers and animators who consulted with concept artists, fans, novel writers, etc, I think it could work.

The_Chaos_Seer
22-05-2009, 03:52
I think a three season series about Eisenhorn would be awesome. Each ep would be a chapter, and it could be followed up by a spinoff series called Ravenor.

Eldartank
22-05-2009, 03:59
I think it would be just about the worst idea you could do to 40k.

A saturday morning cartoon about 40k? So how exactly do you seeing that planned out with warhammer 40,000 being full of chaos worship of dark gods, bomb collars placed around penal legions, commisars shooting their own men in the back of the skull, and slaanesh sexuality?

Besides, there arnt any real "good guys" from a conventional standpoint.

It would either be watered down so much it wouldnt be 40k or it would cause a terrible backlash on why this is being marketed to children in a saturday morning cartoon timeslot. It will kill the games credibility among adults and even young adults who see cartoons like that as being too childish.

I think the only way 40k should be introduced to the general public should be a full budget PG-13 or R rated movie. That kind of exposure will hopefully create a critical mass of new interest and have the word-of-mouth talk that GW so desperately wants.

Don't be silly. Warhammer 40,000 would be a perfect for a kid's cartoon series. They could get Disney to make a series of direct-to-video episodes marketed for 3 to 5 year olds, and have the 40k videos on the shelf right next to The Little Mermaid and The Lion King. And they can even sell a collection of cute plush 40k dolls! What little kid wouldn't want a little plush Father Nurgle, or maybe even a soft fuzzy Arco-Flagellant? And the stuffed Slaanesh Daemonette would be positively adorable!

Master Stark
22-05-2009, 05:36
I mean ultimately it could even be sort of a there is still some hope version of Star Trek. Star Trek was about a group of good people trying to explore, interact, and build relations with aliens in a show of good will. It was about what the world could be like.

This could be a similar vein of show but in a much less optimistic setting. Its warhammer 40k, its gonna be dark and its not gonna be pretty, but a sort of "The Law is written to protect the people" kind of Inquisitor is going to have moments where he will leave his comfort zone in order to be... Fair and rational.

I mean the show will have its shudder moments when the heroes are forced into doing something they hoped they didn't have to, like Exterminatus or on a less drastic scale, a fight against people who are loyal but are following illegitimate orders.

An Inquisitor trying to talk a hot shot Commissar down from killing a guardsman for something that is totally unreasonable and the Commissar still doing it would happen, but there would be consequences for the Commissar. A bit of moral justice would go a long way. A lone Inquisitor trying hard to make a difference in a world where "just shoot them" is the first solution on everyone's mind. A man who wants things to get better for his people and wants to see peace between the stars. He'll be mocked all along the way and situations will put him back a few steps, but his companions and his deepest convictions will keep him on the track. He will fall off track every so often but he will find his way back to his mission.

Ten years of interesting programming easy if it got some fan support to keep it on TV.

That sounds awesome!

Frostea
22-05-2009, 06:25
@OP
No. Just, no. LOTR is similar in scope to WH40K but I doubt a TV series would be good for it either. A TV series for an epic drama/action/war genre sounds like it would be lacking. At least for me.

@Anime vs non-anime discussion
Disclaimer: I've watched many animes, including and limited to those mentioned in this thread.

1. There seems to be a misconception that anime = massive eyes, tiny mouths, cliché storylines, etc. I think that anime in this context would simply refer to japanese animation. I don't think any other country can beat them in terms of animation quality, hence it could be possible that they animate WH40K decently.

2. IMO an anime would not do 40K justice. It needs like an epic movie, similar to LOTR. From then on it will vary depending on what the movie focuses on (Inq and his retinue? Massive IG battles ft. SM?) An full CGI movie is entirely possible, but I think you really need humans to simulate the grimdark setting with their emotions.

Adeptus Mechanicus
22-05-2009, 07:04
For the love of the Omnissiah no Live-Action! There will never be enough support or finances in such a project to make it turn out good. People who want to see 40K getting slapped over Starship Troopers should stand in line over there and await the judgement of the Commisariat. I do not want to see some random B-actor from Stargate Atlantis or some piece of crap show like that (pardon me if anyone actually watches that) in full power armour. Just no. CGI or Animation is the only way 40K will reach a decent standard. I mean we dont want to see a new Mutant Chronicles fiasco now do we? *shudders*

Master Stark
22-05-2009, 07:41
@OP
No. Just, no. LOTR is similar in scope to WH40K but I doubt a TV series would be good for it either. A TV series for an epic drama/action/war genre sounds like it would be lacking. At least for me.

Ever seen Band of Brothers?

No movie will ever do 40K justice. The scope is simply too large, and too many things to cover. If you jam it all in, it will be rushed and hectic. If you leave things out, people will complain.

The only way to do it is with a compartmentalized story line, either in an animatrix style movie or a tv series.

Poseidal
22-05-2009, 07:48
Why does everyone say there's too much to cover?

The scope could be ANYTHING.

You could concentrate on a small group; never mention the HH, never mention the internal politics of the Imperium in more than passing.

You don't need to show people the whole show; just a snapshot of the lives of a few individuals.

It's not a show case, it's a story.

d0dgeuk
22-05-2009, 07:57
I'd be quite happy to see a feature length movie of the type used for the DoW2 trailer. yes it would be CGI but I think if done well would do it more justice than live action.

Dr. Hellbeast
22-05-2009, 09:10
Edward James Olmos playing an admiral in the Imperial Navy would be good. :D

Awilla the Hun
22-05-2009, 10:07
Whatever happens, I hope they don't get one of the following as good guys:

1) The only enlightened Imperial Guard regiment there is-alien loving, but still has just enough male officers to have the Inspiring Story of a mary sue private lady black soldier working her way up through the ranks, whilst at the same time having the Colonel falling in love with farseers.

2) A hardbitten, hard drinking, hard stubbled Inquisitor with a trenchcoat, revolver, and lots of smoking. That's been done before too often.

3) Space Marines of any kind, UNLESS they're portrayed as the fascistic ubermenchen that they really are, with a few redeeming qualities.

4) Shakespearean thespian actors being forced to dress up in ludicrous costumes and spout out lots of exposition. (Whenever I see Ian McKellen in any Sci Fi Movie, I feel sorry now. I think he enjoyed Lord of the Rings well enough, but X Men...)

5) Mel Gibson being anywhere near it. If he gets to direct, it'll be about some heroic hippy Orks holding off evil Praetorians led by some of the unfortunate thesps mentioned above, with him in green face paint leading the choppa charge. (Come to think of it, letting Mel Gibson anywhere near anything apart from light romantic comedies is a bad idea.)

However, what would be nice would be...

1) Orks as heroes.

2) Imperial heroes actually shown as the fascists they are, but with redeeming qualities. (The more human wavey and old fashioned the regiment, the better.)

3) Not every fat, medal wearing Imperial Guard general being inherently evil. (Honestly: there were good aristocrats in command in World War 1 as well as less competent ones. Plumer was an example. Haig, arguably, another-he wanted far more tanks than he actually got at the Somme, and the French pressured him into doing it. Brusilov was a third.)

4) Chaos Lords not being child molesting blankly evil types. (Like Darken Rahl in Sword of Truth. My God.) There are dark anti heroes there as well.

Adeptus Mechanicus
22-05-2009, 10:15
Imagine Richard Dean Andersson in Power Armour. Now THAT'S heresy!

genestealer_baldric
22-05-2009, 10:17
Please No! ive had my other favorite books made into a very very poor reflection of the books, dont do it to 40k.

Master Stark
22-05-2009, 11:24
Why does everyone say there's too much to cover?

The scope could be ANYTHING.

You could concentrate on a small group; never mention the HH, never mention the internal politics of the Imperium in more than passing.

You don't need to show people the whole show; just a snapshot of the lives of a few individuals.

It's not a show case, it's a story.

Because if you don't go into the 40K-ness of 40K, then it isn't 40K.

If all you are interested in is telling a good story, then why bother with all the headaches of using an established IP?

Poseidal
22-05-2009, 11:33
Because if you don't go into the 40K-ness of 40K, then it isn't 40K.

If all you are interested in is telling a good story, then why bother with all the headaches of using an established IP?

You use 40k for the feel and visual appearance.

They get to know what a Space Marine looks like and how they act (for example) if the protagonist is a Space Marine. What they don't need is to shown about the Horus Heresy, the history of the Tau and everything else.

You don't need to present the entire history of the Imperium to a viewer for it to be 40k. Having the correct motifs and behaviour is more than enough.

If it's episodic, these things can be revealed but you don't need to show everyone everything all the time.

Hellgore
22-05-2009, 11:42
Whatever happens, I hope they don't get one of the following as good guys:

1) The only enlightened Imperial Guard regiment there is-alien loving, but still has just enough male officers to have the Inspiring Story of a mary sue private lady black soldier working her way up through the ranks, whilst at the same time having the Colonel falling in love with farseers.

2) A hardbitten, hard drinking, hard stubbled Inquisitor with a trenchcoat, revolver, and lots of smoking. That's been done before too often.

3) Space Marines of any kind, UNLESS they're portrayed as the fascistic ubermenchen that they really are, with a few redeeming qualities.

4) Shakespearean thespian actors being forced to dress up in ludicrous costumes and spout out lots of exposition. (Whenever I see Ian McKellen in any Sci Fi Movie, I feel sorry now. I think he enjoyed Lord of the Rings well enough, but X Men...)

5) Mel Gibson being anywhere near it. If he gets to direct, it'll be about some heroic hippy Orks holding off evil Praetorians led by some of the unfortunate thesps mentioned above, with him in green face paint leading the choppa charge. (Come to think of it, letting Mel Gibson anywhere near anything apart from light romantic comedies is a bad idea.)

However, what would be nice would be...

1) Orks as heroes.

2) Imperial heroes actually shown as the fascists they are, but with redeeming qualities. (The more human wavey and old fashioned the regiment, the better.)

3) Not every fat, medal wearing Imperial Guard general being inherently evil. (Honestly: there were good aristocrats in command in World War 1 as well as less competent ones. Plumer was an example. Haig, arguably, another-he wanted far more tanks than he actually got at the Somme, and the French pressured him into doing it. Brusilov was a third.)

4) Chaos Lords not being child molesting blankly evil types. (Like Darken Rahl in Sword of Truth. My God.) There are dark anti heroes there as well.

Well, this sounds like a typical list of "I like/play orcs and chaos and am a marine hater". I would sometimes appreciate for example that orcs would be depicted as the savage slaughterers they are, even though with some black humour. And while "facist" is quite a good description for the Imperium as a whole it need not be the ultimate description of Space Marines. And so on...

TreadHead1
22-05-2009, 15:35
A hardbitten, hard drinking, hard stubbled Inquisitor with a trenchcoat, revolver, and lots of smoking. That's been done before too often.



I can't think of anything better, Philip Glenister could play a commisar :p

seriously though, a film would be better as a high budget would be able to fully capture the epic scale of the 40k universe. And it could be a series of films with good actors rated 15 to get some good violence in :)

Colonel Deal
22-05-2009, 16:01
The thing is, would they be able to get a high budget for a film? Does 40k really have the appeal to get the budget required to do a big epic film with massive battles and everything else that everyone wants?

A TV series might be a safer bet, and could still do a lot to capture the epic scale of 40k. Having a lot of money doesn't instantly mean it'll be epic, especially if the people in the driving seat don't have enough vision for it.

Balog
23-05-2009, 00:26
How many people play 40k? How many people have never heard of 40k, but might have an open mind? How many people look down on wargaming as playing with toy soldiers and would be turned off based on it's origins? I honestly think the overall audience is too small for the idea to have much chance of being put into practice.

Col. Tartleton
23-05-2009, 03:07
I want a TV show that gets one season and by sticking to the fluff manages to alienate everyone watching it and even manages to shock the fans of 40k in how insane the characters are and then gets canceled and stops every future attempt at media portrayals of warhammer outside of video games...

Seriously, we need raw uncut Black Templars on TV.

8 foot tall German named blue eyed blond super soldiers in black armor covered in crosses and chains and gothic ornamentation spattered in the blood of their foes screaming oaths to a twisted alternate reality version of the Christ while using six foot long chainsaw edged swords and hand held rapid fire missile launchers to dismember men, woman, and children because they are not following the Imperial Creed strictly enough and then committing acts of genocide and cannibalism. Did I mention that the "evil cultists" resemble middle eastern people? No, I guess I didn't.

Grindgodgrind
23-05-2009, 03:12
Col. Tartleton, you're onto a winner.

Inquisitor Engel
23-05-2009, 04:02
8 foot tall German named blue eyed blond super soldiers in black armor covered in crosses and chains and gothic ornamentation spattered in the blood of their foes screaming oaths to a twisted alternate reality version of the Christ while using six foot long chainsaw edged swords and hand held rapid fire missile launchers to dismember men, woman, and children because they are not following the Imperial Creed strictly enough and then committing acts of genocide and cannibalism. Did I mention that the "evil cultists" resemble middle eastern people? No, I guess I didn't.

Sounds a lot like 24 to me. ;)

Grimbad
23-05-2009, 04:48
Forget historical events and space marines. However they're done, half of everyone who plays this game will hate it.
Forget bad actors and crappy CGI. Everyone will hate it.
Taking that into account, Deff Skwadron as an animated series is the only way to go as far as I can see. There's no need to set the scene beyond a brief narration by Gimzod as the planes start their attack run. There's no need to dilute the IP in any way. There's no need to force unnecessary and somewhat boring information about the 10,000 years of made up history that defines the setting.
There is a need for explosions and craziness. And Killboy the veteran kamikaze pilot, though it's a bit redundant saying that right after 'explosions and craziness'.
Preferably animated in full color in the style the comic is drawn.

GodofWarTx
23-05-2009, 07:04
terrible idea when you consider the god-awful budgets TV shows have.

Idaan
23-05-2009, 08:23
You mean like Battlestar Galactica that had about million dollars for episode IIRC? Regardless, you can't argue that it didn't have decent FX.

A thought came to me, that what that film really needs is some of these talented actors that like to get an over-the-top performance in cheesy sf movie. So for instance:
- Jeremy Irons
- Malcolm McDowell
- John Malkovich
- Christopher Lee
- Patrick Stewart (ok not that one because he mainly plays in cheesy sf, but still)

I know I'd go and see a film with Irons as an Inquisitor.

What we would probably get is Space Marines uppercutting Avatars though, so I hope that the film never comes into reality.

Cool_Mint
23-05-2009, 11:50
It would be freaking awful; boring, cheerless, repetitive and soulless.

The problem with 40k is that it's a story in which people don't matter or count for anything; all good stories need a few star characters around whom the whole World revolves and that the reader or viewer can empathise with. TBH the one Warhammer novel I ever skimmed through was on a par with those god-awful Star Wars novels.

40k is a good game and a good mythos but it would die a death on screen.