PDA

View Full Version : Tau getting more anti-necron power?



Mars
22-12-2005, 19:01
The Piranha discussion made me think of something:

- Crisis Suits getting cheaper: cheaper fusion blasters.
- Stealth Suits getting fusion blasters.
- Piranhas get fusion blasters.
- Vespids.
- Pathfinders get railrifles.
- Rail drones.

2 things I noticed:

- a lot more fusion blasters. We all remember the first rumours that Vespids would get S4 AP3 guns with S8 for instant kill purposes, which was a clear anti-Necron tendency. But if you think about it, they're getting access to a lot more fusion blasters, which are even better at it. Plus more rail rifles/vespid guns, which are also good for killing Necrons.

- general improvement of abilities against heavy armour. The last codex saw a specialisation, in that there was a clear distinction between anti-light/medium infantry weapons (pulse weapons, kroot weapons, railgun submuniton, missile pods) and anti-tank weapons (fusion blasters, missile pods, railguns). Tau did not have weapon that was really designed to take on heavy infantry, other than the Ion Cannon (which was usually ignored in favor of the railgun) and the plasma rifles (which was limited in points cost, range, chance of hitting...).

But than we first saw Pathfinders get rail rifles, and now these are also given to rail drones, plus we get the Vespids. All weapons comparable to the fearsome Starcannon, which is possibly the best-known anti-Marine weapon in the game.

Is this a clear indication that the current Tau list was flawed when facing heavily armoured opponents? Or jsut against Necrons?

Rogerio
22-12-2005, 19:04
Tau are getting rather powerfull these days with lots of extra gubbins!

Banesword
22-12-2005, 19:07
This is because all the 3+ save armies. Tau need AP3 weapons, and by the looks it is what they'll get in the new codex.

Fluffwise, it would be logical after encountering Space Marines.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
22-12-2005, 19:09
Well, the Vespid bit is waaay out, although, against the small, critical nature of certain Necron units, I can see them excelling. I mean, it's not every unit that can keep up with, and consistently threaten, Destroyer units now is it?

And i wouldn't say it was flawed. The Taus main strength is the cheapness, and depenability of it's basic troops. For 10 points, that Firewarrior is going to make a good mess. And the specialisation was easy enough to live with, as you didn't really need lots of mid range anti-infantry. The Fire Warriors were all you needed.

I think some of the new toys will help against Necrons, but it's my opinion that they got the help they really needed to take on Horde armies. Despite what I just said about Fire Warriors, I've always struggled against the like of Nids with Tau. Now that various new options are there, I can predict a much easier time. The shaving of the Nid Codex has also helped of course!

As for Fusion Blasters, well, apart from the rightly feared, and a thankfully rare (by comparisson) Railguns, the Tau actually had relatively little anti-Tank firepower. It would seem that the designers wanted to take the onus off the Railgun, and offer a few other ways of dealing with Tanks, which in turn encourages the use of the Ion Cannon, which is looking like a bargain now! Certainly, the only Railguns in my force are on my three Broadside suits!

Mars
22-12-2005, 19:14
You're probably right on the fusion blaster being mainly ment for anti-tank purposes, I had the same thought after posting this thread.

Although with Scouting Stealth Suits, fast moving Piranhas and Vespids, and long-ranged, stealth-shielded rail drones, there is definitly potential for creating a suriously powerfull anti-heavy infantry strike force, especially against Necrons with no Resurection Orb nearby.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
22-12-2005, 19:21
I still argue that AP3 weapons are simply not required to take down AV3+ troops, but nobody ever listens....

But yeah, the Tau are set to be a precision firepower army. If guided right (and not just by the player!) then every unit shot at should crumble.

This is encouraging, as it moves them ever further from the Imperial Guard style of play. Where IG can simply pull off indiscriminate fire, and survive pretty much everything the enemy can throw at it through sheer numbers, the Tau need to box clever. With the potential speed, and weapon load outs (Devilfish with SMS and Burst Cannon can get off 7, infantry slaying shots a turn!) all you have to do is mark out in your mind what HAS to die this turn, and then go after it in an orderly fashion. Personally, where troops are concerned, I would get the Firewarriors to be my opening bat, followed by a gradual increase in firepower. Ion Cannons are, in theory, the bane of Devastator squads. I'm planning on taking two!

Having used a Saim Hann force, I can also reccomend overlooking firepower in favour of survival.

Essentially, every turn, every move, the Tau player has to weigh up the situation. By leaving your heaviest firepower until last, you get the theoretical luxury of mopping up whatever takes your fancy. And this is where the Vespid come into the plan. By hiding in woods, and flying out (mmm...skilled flyers!) they can successfully engage small, elite units, hopefully wiping them out. Assault Marines, Raptors, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Retribution Squads, anything like that is just VPs waiting for the Vespids to claim!

Negafex
22-12-2005, 19:25
when you look at other armies such as space marines for example, a lot of their squads had the option for one or two squad members to take a specialty weapon. the tau probably saw this as a good opportunity to learn from their enemy. i have played tau for quite a few years now and i belive many tau players realized we didnt have any weapons that are non battlesuit for dealing with massed heavy infantry such as space marines, necrons, and even some eldar. i think this is going to make the tau much more competitive and we may see more variations in army lists. with the current tau codex there is really only one type of army list that is fiesable against most of the modern armys. we'll see lists like "stealth lists" comprised of stealth suits and sniper drones, we'll see the standard mech tau with lots of tanks but also newer, faster, lighter skimmers like the piranha. the pathfinders are going to be much more usefull now in conjunction with the skyray and broadsides, flat out upping their BS. all in all i dont belive they are going to be overpowered or cheap but they will definitely have more variety and options. all you other armys out there may be facing more than just one type of tau armylist now.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
22-12-2005, 19:30
My one concern about the Piranha is the size of the beast. For a light skimmer, the models are a touch on the large side. Certainly, I don't think I'd use more than 3 to a squadron!

Hoshi No Koe
22-12-2005, 21:33
Yeah, I agree. I think the squadrons will be at their best at 2 or 3 a squadron. That way it'll still be reasonably feasible to hide them while retaining the ability to put out a nice amount of seeker death and substantial drone squadron for tying up/disruptive purposes. These two factors are the Piranha's main strengths IMO and not the FB's they can take. Those would serve a secondary role for hunting tanks that couldn't be taken out by the initial seeker rain and railguns or to take off some wounds from any pesky monstrous creatures.

Brother Muninn
22-12-2005, 21:45
There's a lot of suggestion lately about Tau tech becoming too strong, however that is the army's only boon.

Space Marines and Eldar have reliable psykers (I'm certain the warlocks'll be beefed up with their new codex, and I've heard rumors about Orks getting 'Weird Boyz'), Nids Orks and IG have numbers on their side, 'Crons are harder to kill than cockroaches (even IF you have an AP3), and the Inquisition are just tough.

The Tau are far from focused on CC, so their style of play is to prevent assaults with superior fire power/mobility. Everyones heard the addage about the last marine standing managing to slog into close combat and take down a squad of fire warriors, well now they're just getting better at dropping that last man. I still see them having problems with Horde armies, but the ability to give all warriors carbines should help to slow down approaching bands.

The Wraithlord
22-12-2005, 23:35
I have a hard time understanding how carbines help do so considering how many things have high LD or rerolls for it or ignore LD checks outright. Nids in synapse won't ever be stopped by morale and others will be the same. I would rather keep the pulse rifle myself.

As for the topic, I don't know so much about anti-necron power. It seems to me like the changes are more for variety and to fill a gap that the list was very weak on, namely taking out heavy infantry in general.

Brother Muninn
23-12-2005, 01:32
Well, in conjunction with markerlights the Carbines could be an even more effective pinning tool.

True about Nids in Synapse though.

LeonidasL
23-12-2005, 02:38
for me only 2 weakness are found in the tau army:
1) the army with the worst Ld in the game
2) everything is thought with one thing in mind... pathfinders marking enemy units.
I don't want to talk about drone-issue.
For me both issues remain open and unfortunately unsolved. Ld hasn't changed and no wargear exists to help morale tests -no i will NOT use ethereals, since their death delivers a blow in my army where it really hurts and it also takes up an HQ choice better reserved for a shas'o-.
Finally pathfinders continue to come with their obligatory stupid devilfish. If it didn't exist, I would be fielding 2-3 units of them; now I will not be fielding any; they are simply not worth the ponts.
For me my favourite Tau characteristic is the markerlight; something that i will still not be using with the new codex. Too bad, because i had had really high hopes for my pathfinders...

Captain Stuart
23-12-2005, 05:19
..snip...

Essentially, every turn, every move, the Tau player has to weigh up the situation. By leaving your heaviest firepower until last, you get the theoretical luxury of mopping up whatever takes your fancy.

While I agree that the order of firing units is very, very important, I disagree that any particular order such as saving the big guns until the end is important. One must assess the situation which is unique in every turn. For example, you may want to use your missle pods to pop a transport before following up with the FCW squads shooting at the pinned unit.

Other factors like markerlights, how many targets a unit has and even how your opponent must remove his casualties (within LoS and range) should be taken into account. However, I agree with Mad Doc's other observations.

Sorry for the digression.

On topic, I doubt you'll see a lot of fusion blasters on crisis suits. Plasma rifles are going to be a better buy, even with an increased cost because of range and double fire rate within 12". Better to use fusion blasters on the piranas. I can see a small stealth unit with fusions, but I still think the stealth suits excel more than as a fusion blaster delivery system.

Brimstone
23-12-2005, 06:15
Only 1 in 3 stealth suits can take a fusion blaster so you can only ever have a maximum of two per squad.

Tulun
23-12-2005, 07:35
The Tau are far from focused on CC, so their style of play is to prevent assaults with superior fire power/mobility. Everyones heard the addage about the last marine standing managing to slog into close combat and take down a squad of fire warriors, well now they're just getting better at dropping that last man. I still see them having problems with Horde armies, but the ability to give all warriors carbines should help to slow down approaching bands.


Er... Tau really don't have many problems with hordes. Most hordes will only have a 5+ save (or less), and Tau can get a scary # of fire warriors for cheap. Rapid fire Pulse rifles will take care of hordes easily.

Mars
23-12-2005, 09:50
for me only 2 weakness are found in the tau army:
1) the army with the worst Ld in the game
2) everything is thought with one thing in mind... pathfinders marking enemy units.


I generally don't find Tau Ld that much of a problem: my Ethereal is yet to be killed, my Shas'o has Ld10, my normal squads are all Ld8... My kroot have the worst morale, and with their numbers and cheap cost this usually isn't that much of a problem.

Plus my enemy is usually to bussy trying to get into close combat to shoot me decently. And if he does shoot it's usually at short range, which often just means he won't get to charge.

I agree that Pathfinders are pretty expensive for what they can do, mainly because of the Devilfish. On the other hand their Devilfish is getting it's own markerlightish thing, and also access to SMS, which will make it into quite a hard tank.

Other than that, you can still give Markerlights to your Fire Warrior Shas'ui. And I'm hoping Piranha's will have them as well, but aparantly that's not the case.

TheShadow3s
23-12-2005, 09:51
We need anti-heavy to blow away those necs , and I think that the tau being overpowerd is seriously overestimated . They should look at necrons with those we'll be back rolls there are only certain armies that are capable off really killing those units cause outnumbering won't help
bottom point people shouldn't say tau are getting overpowerd look at the other races wich have anti heavy OR forms like it

Hoshi No Koe
23-12-2005, 11:15
I'm not too keen on the SMS upgrade of the Devilfish. It's quite expensive making the DF come in at more than 100pts. I agree 7 S5 shots is impressive, but it remains a non scoring unit. It might just be me but I'm also reluctant to give up the 2 drones that can detach from the DF. These 2 little drones have saved me the game on some occasions by getting into the assault path of a nasty CC unit or forcing my opponent to waste the firepowe of whole unit to clear the path, especially with the target priority rule.

I liked the pathfinders were nice with the old rules but the new rules make them a very valuable unit IMO. I could always find some use for the DF anyway. Besides it's rumoured the DF is getting something akin to a teleport homer for the Tau's deep striking units which makes it become a very worthwhile units for coordinating deep strike assaults, especially with the scout move combined with theri speed.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
23-12-2005, 17:08
Only the Pathfinders Devilfish will get that sort of toy!

And I just cannot pass up the opporchancity of more SMS! I love them!

Zapp Brannigan
23-12-2005, 17:47
I still argue that AP3 weapons are simply not required to take down AV3+ troops, but nobody ever listens....


Obviously, with enough luck, a lasgun can take out a chaos chosen terminator with T5, but I'd still rather be shooting at it with a plasma gun, or a meltagun.

fubukii
23-12-2005, 18:27
eh shooting a necron with a regular gun normally causes little to no damage. Its just better to ignore one of their saves so our kill rates jumps.

eldanesh
23-12-2005, 19:42
1) the army with the worst Ld in the game
This is something nobody understands: low Ld is - in combination withan Ethereal - a big advantage, if you manage to place your troops in a proper way:

Example: you've placed 12 fire Warriors in the best possible way, the "X" (2 in the first row, 1 in the 2nd row, 9 in the 3rd row (with 2" between the rows))
Some CC-troop attacks your FW's and usually kills the 3 warriors in the 1st and 2nd row.
You can't strike back and loose the cc. Now you make the the LD check.
If you pass the check, it's almost sure the the remaining Fw's will be killed, and even worse you cant's shoot at the enemy unit that is engaged (and the cc Blocks LOS).
But if you fail the check (what is quite possible with LD7, modifiers and reroll)
you retreat and the enemy can only consolidate D6"(you can't overrun an enemy without any models in contact). So the remaining 9 FW can flee and have a good chance that they pass their check in the following turn (LD7 with reroll)
you save your FW's, and you can shoot at the enemy..

At all I'm a bit disapointed about the changes: Tau weren't too weak, but they needed more experienced gamers than the commom Marine, Chaos or Eldar-army to be successful.
Now they simply enlarge the power of their weapons, so that every *pardon* noob is able to win with them.
I understand this from a sales point of view, as it makes Tau much more attractive for younger players (which often look more after the power of an army than anything other), but IMO it makes playing Tau more boring: at the moment you can't win with Tau if you use stupid stand&shoot "tactics" (only if there is no terrain, the enemy is brainwashed or plays Orks :D). In the future it seems that this will be an option in the future (even if I wait until I see the codex with point costs before for final judgement). As almost every unit gets stronger and easier to use. That's a pity as I hoped that they'll go more for balanced codices in the future, as the BT-Codex was a step in the right direction and a needed downgrade for a too strong army...

The Wraithlord
23-12-2005, 19:54
That is one of the problems with GW, they tend to go too far to correct a problem. Prime example is the Thousand Sons. Before the current codex they were sick due to the ability to ignore wounds of S4 or less. Out comes the new codex and suddenly they are the worst legion in the book.

Something similar may be happening with the Tau but I don't really think it is that extreme myself. They may be making the army a tad easier to play with but their extreme weakness in hand to hand still seems to be in place and most of the new stuff we are getting is geared towards fixing the lack of variety in the army currently.

g0ddy
23-12-2005, 20:09
I still argue that AP3 weapons are simply not required to take down AV3+ troops, but nobody ever listens....


I rather enjoyed a game a few weeks back... tau versus deathwing... 1500 pts

I, the tau, had 1 railgun and 1 plasma rifle... Still gave him a sound spanking, the 40 basic kroot worked wonders :)

Mars, You should also know while crisis are becoming cheaper - plasma rifles have gone up almost 50% in price, 2 fire warriors for 1 and 3 for a twinlinked.

- g0ddy

Mr. Shadowsun
23-12-2005, 20:26
IMO, the tau army is designed as 'choice hunters'. this means that their troops are good against other troops, their heavy are good against other heavy and so on, whereas armies like space marines have the option to equip their standard troops to deal with almost anything, making them very flexible. the tau are far less flexible, but fire wariors are good at killing tactical squads, crisis teams are( or can be) very good against things like terminators.
basically, the tau sacrifice a lot of flexibility through constraining their basic infantry to choosing a carbine. crisis suits are elite, being more flexible to deal with anything elite like. their basic troops are basic, thir elites are elite, fast attack are extremely pacy and heavy suport slug around big scary guns.
if you get what i am saying, you will understand why fire warriors are as they are; ther were designed as an anti infantry unit, so don't need to be able to take out tanks and the like, that's what the broadsides, hammerhead, and soon to be sky ray are for.

Tom
23-12-2005, 23:34
Worst Ld in the game... Hmm. Lower the enemy's then so it's worse!

Eldoriath
26-12-2005, 05:18
Sure, i agreee on the tau having bad Ld. But how fun is it now when practically alla armies have LD 10 or are fearless? Not at all, since Ld makes a less significant(grammar?) on the game, whereas tau get the markerlight option to "fix" that.
And don't forget that the DE also has bad Ld (8), although they can get 9 by making their upgraded squad leader kill someting in CC. Plus that this army is so much eaten by tau that it is imaginable (atleast by my experience and by running just a few, small numbers).

The Wraithlord
26-12-2005, 06:57
DE are very hampered vs Tau shooting but once they get into h2h, the Tau are done without extremely lucky rolls and/or tactics to compensate. Always fun though. I played against 2000pts of DE once, just slaughtered the DE for 3 turns. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to kill one of the portal carriers and out came the wyches. Barely, and I do mean BARELY was able to scrape a draw out of it.

But with most armies having LD 10 or Fearless (or rerolls for Chaos Undivided and lets not forget the fact that SM's auto regroup) I don't really see how using Markerlights to lower LD is going to be all that big a deal. Maybe if you can see that you will only be able to use a couple of the ML hits to shoot at better BS with, then yeah use the excess to lower LD. But for the most part, ML's will be used to improve BS and negate cover saves I would imagine.

Time and lots of playtesting will tell :)

scarvet
26-12-2005, 22:29
when you look at other armies such as space marines for example, a lot of their squads had the option for one or two squad members to take a specialty weapon. the tau probably saw this as a good opportunity to learn from their enemy. i have played tau for quite a few years now and i belive many tau players realized we didnt have any weapons that are non battlesuit for dealing with massed heavy infantry such as space marines, necrons, and even some eldar. i think this is going to make the tau much more competitive and we may see more variations in army lists. with the current tau codex there is really only one type of army list that is fiesable against most of the modern armys. we'll see lists like "stealth lists" comprised of stealth suits and sniper drones, we'll see the standard mech tau with lots of tanks but also newer, faster, lighter skimmers like the piranha. the pathfinders are going to be much more usefull now in conjunction with the skyray and broadsides, flat out upping their BS. all in all i dont belive they are going to be overpowered or cheap but they will definitely have more variety and options. all you other armys out there may be facing more than just one type of tau armylist now.
so as 'nids and necron, every amry have its back ground and if you just want balance in the game, every body should play SM or IG

charlie_c67
26-12-2005, 22:57
Not really. In the majority of cases you've just gotta learn how to use your army and their strengths properly. It takes time, something people don't like doing.

gigglyjoker
27-12-2005, 17:24
So are Tau going to be able to destroy heavy tanks at range outside of the Heavy Support railguns?

Why is it that the shootiest race in the game is forced to get into assault range more than any other race in order to destroy tanks?

-Metalore


The Piranha discussion made me think of something:

- Crisis Suits getting cheaper: cheaper fusion blasters.
- Stealth Suits getting fusion blasters.
- Piranhas get fusion blasters.
- Vespids.
- Pathfinders get railrifles.
- Rail drones.

2 things I noticed:

- a lot more fusion blasters. We all remember the first rumours that Vespids would get S4 AP3 guns with S8 for instant kill purposes, which was a clear anti-Necron tendency. But if you think about it, they're getting access to a lot more fusion blasters, which are even better at it. Plus more rail rifles/vespid guns, which are also good for killing Necrons.

- general improvement of abilities against heavy armour. The last codex saw a specialisation, in that there was a clear distinction between anti-light/medium infantry weapons (pulse weapons, kroot weapons, railgun submuniton, missile pods) and anti-tank weapons (fusion blasters, missile pods, railguns). Tau did not have weapon that was really designed to take on heavy infantry, other than the Ion Cannon (which was usually ignored in favor of the railgun) and the plasma rifles (which was limited in points cost, range, chance of hitting...).

But than we first saw Pathfinders get rail rifles, and now these are also given to rail drones, plus we get the Vespids. All weapons comparable to the fearsome Starcannon, which is possibly the best-known anti-Marine weapon in the game.

Is this a clear indication that the current Tau list was flawed when facing heavily armoured opponents? Or jsut against Necrons?

Lanfiex
27-12-2005, 20:40
So are Tau going to be able to destroy heavy tanks at range outside of the Heavy Support railguns?


yep they can, sky ray it! S8 6 missles will probley get at least 1 glanceing. any way why should they have another ranged wepaon which can destory a tank when the rail gun is the best gun out there

Tom
27-12-2005, 23:08
yep they can, sky ray it! S8 6 missles will probley get at least 1 glanceing. any way why should they have another ranged wepaon which can destory a tank when the rail gun is the best gun out there


Variety.

Why should Space Marines have Multi-meltas when the Lascannon's a bit better at taking out tanks? Because it's another option for a bit of monotony breaking.

Lanfiex
28-12-2005, 02:07
Variety.

Why should Space Marines have Multi-meltas when the Lascannon's a bit better at taking out tanks? Because it's another option for a bit of monotony breaking.

er the multi melta only work well at 12 or less so how exacly is that not geting close ranged.

there are 4 four ways for tau (not farsight) to get into a AV14 tanks

rail gun, EMP, Fusion blaters, seekermissle.

if you allow for forge world their is also fusion cannons and heavy rail guns. so excatly what is the obsestion with killing AV14

any way become like SM and have heavey wepoan spread every where sertainly dosnt break the monotony, were as a school of pirhanas rigged up for fusion sertainly does break the monotony

Mad Doc Grotsnik
28-12-2005, 12:58
More importantly, only 5 tanks have AV14.

Landraider, Crusader, Leman Russ, Demolisher, Monolith.

None of these are ever really encountered in large enough numbers that your Railgun(s) will be overwhelmed. I mean, I run with 3 Broadsides, and I am confident of their ability to knack any of the above in a single round of firing.

I also make extensive use of Ion Cannon (well, two!) which are more than capable of tackling mid ranged armour, right up to 13, though I do prefer to knack those with Railguns.

So stop panicking about AV14. It's pretty rare, and easily handled by the Tau!

And why are most of their anti-tank weapons short ranged? Because a game where I sit on the base line, blowing everything up with contemptuous ease would be utter ****, and a total waste of time! It would be the shooty equivalent to Black Templars (3rd Edition mind!)

gigglyjoker
28-12-2005, 17:17
More importantly, only 5 tanks have AV14.

Landraider, Crusader, Leman Russ, Demolisher, Monolith.

None of these are ever really encountered in large enough numbers that your Railgun(s) will be overwhelmed. I mean, I run with 3 Broadsides, and I am confident of their ability to knack any of the above in a single round of firing.

I also make extensive use of Ion Cannon (well, two!) which are more than capable of tackling mid ranged armour, right up to 13, though I do prefer to knack those with Railguns.

So stop panicking about AV14. It's pretty rare, and easily handled by the Tau!

And why are most of their anti-tank weapons short ranged? Because a game where I sit on the base line, blowing everything up with contemptuous ease would be utter ****, and a total waste of time! It would be the shooty equivalent to Black Templars (3rd Edition mind!)

The problem is that Tau rely on their Heavy Support choices almost exclusively to deal with AV14. It should not be this way. No other race has it this way. Games Workshop may be recognizing and trying to fix this by giving Stealth Suits and Piranhas meltaguns, but those are still only 12".

Is it so difficult to give the shootiest race in the game a weapon that can take out AV14 and has a range of at least 24" that is not Heavy Support? Marines have it. Tyranids have it. Sisters of Battle have it. Imperial Guard have it. Dark Eldar and Eldar have it all over the place. Necrons have it. Even Demonhunters have it.

But not Tau, the shootiest race and weakest in close combat race is forced to get into assault range to kill AV14. And they´re also forced to not take Ion Cannons because that would mean no Railgun. Shooty race my ass. You´d think I´d have a good choice of what ranged weapon I should take.

The Troops choice, which you can take 6 of and is supposed to be core, is not core at all. Krootox can now be taken in Troops which is a step in the right direction, but it is pretty lame that the TAU Firewarriors remain so inflexible.

-gigglyjoker

Mad Doc Grotsnik
28-12-2005, 17:27
Yes, they have. Seeker Missiles combined with Markerlights. They can threatent AV14!

Ion Cannons are fantakka in my opinion. Nice long range, decent amount of shots. Whilst not great against higher armour, they are spiffing when it comes to establishing fire dominance of the board. Two Ion Cannon armed Hammerheads (Ion Cannons get a points break now, according to my source!) with the help of two Marker Light hits can wipe out Devastator Squads in a single turn. They have different uses to Railguns.

And if you want Railguns, I'd always take Broadsides. Just as accurate (more so with a Targetting Matrix!) and far harder to take care of, asd you have to kill three models as opposed to one. The Submunition is tempting, but not really necessary if, like me, you take LOTS of Firewarriors!

It's all horses for courses, so I won't say your wrong, but I would encourage you to experiment with the various weapon systems available. And remember, Missile Pods are deadly to rear armours! Unless it's a Landraider, Crusader or Monolith, natch!

White Knight
28-12-2005, 17:36
Is it lame that the Tau work differently to other armies? No.

Tau HAVE a non-Heavy Support Weapon capable of taking out an AV14 target. Markerlights and Seeker Missiles. Sure, not statistically great, but the option is there.

Sure the majority of Tau forces aren't superb at Anti-Armour, but that's because their Troops et al are designed to work in concert with their Heavy Support. I mean, there are few things that can match a Broadside Team for Firepower, and this can be called in very accurately by Markerlights, while the Hammerhead is easily the equal of the Leman Russ or even the Land Raider.

Lastly, though, no-one ever said shooty meant "long-range shooty" - I still see the Tau strengths as being Mobility and Firepower - leave range and firepower to the Guard or Iron Warriors.

gigglyjoker
30-12-2005, 16:46
And why are most of their anti-tank weapons short ranged? Because a game where I sit on the base line, blowing everything up with contemptuous ease would be utter ****, and a total waste of time! It would be the shooty equivalent to Black Templars (3rd Edition mind!)

Actually, it wouldn´t be any better than Necrons.

-gigglyjoker

gigglyjoker
30-12-2005, 16:50
Is it lame that the Tau work differently to other armies? No.

Tau HAVE a non-Heavy Support Weapon capable of taking out an AV14 target. Markerlights and Seeker Missiles. Sure, not statistically great, but the option is there.

Sure the majority of Tau forces aren't superb at Anti-Armour, but that's because their Troops et al are designed to work in concert with their Heavy Support. I mean, there are few things that can match a Broadside Team for Firepower, and this can be called in very accurately by Markerlights, while the Hammerhead is easily the equal of the Leman Russ or even the Land Raider.

Lastly, though, no-one ever said shooty meant "long-range shooty" - I still see the Tau strengths as being Mobility and Firepower - leave range and firepower to the Guard or Iron Warriors.

That´s the problem. The Warhammer 40,000 game was never designed to have units from different areas of the Force Organization chart have to depend on each other. Here´s a copy of my message from another forum:

Problem with Tau has always been their Force Organization, and I fear the new Tau Empires Codex may not repair the problem. Two points:

1) You can´t make units in each of the Force Organization slots depend upon units in other categories of the Force Organization chart to be effective. That is, you can´t make Troops depend on Heavy Support, or Elites depend on Fast Attack. The fundamental structure of the Warhammer 40,000 forbids this. It is not what the Force Organization chart was designed to facilitate, and Troops choice end up not being core, Fast Attack choices end up not being fast attack, elites end up not being specialist, and Heavy Support ends up not being support (Tau is indeed the progenitor here). Deployment order and missions with different Force Organization charts destroy the effectiveness of any such army. Troops choices (i.e. Fire Warriors), not being well-rounded, hurt the player since he has access to 6 of them but they are useless because they depend on other areas of the Force Organization chart to meet the enemy. Look at any other race and you´ll see that the Troops choices do what they are supposed to do -- that is, they are basic, core, tactical choices that you could conceivably build a solid foundation around, and are worthy of 6 slots. But not Firewarriors. They are only good in very specific situations, more like a weak Elites choice. And with Kroot getting access to Krootox as a troops choice, I see Firewarriors being pushed by the wayside. Indeed, the Kroot change was strategically a step in the right direction for Tau, though it is still a shame for the actual Tau.

2) Related to number 1. Tau are the shootiest race and the weakest in close combat in the entire Warhammer 40,000 game. Yet they are forced more than any other race to get into assault range in order to destroy AV 14 vehicles. All of their ranged weaponry that can destroy AV 14 vehicles (i.e. Railguns) is in heavy support. The only thing they have outside of this is fusion blasters. Why is it so difficult to give non-Heavy Support choices a weapon that can destroy AV 14 vehicles and has a range of at least 24"? Again, a fundamental flaw in the force organization. EVERY other race has such a weapon. Marines have it. Tyranids have it. Sisters of Battle have it. Witchhunters have it. Dark Eldar and Eldar have it all over the place. Demonhunters have it. Orks have it. But not, Tau -- no, not the shootiest race in the game.

-gigglyjoker

Akuma
30-12-2005, 17:27
Point

1) This "theory" is a creation of some Tau player ( probably not a good one ) that would want all eggs in one basket units. Acctualy Tau is all about cooperation between diffrent elements of the whole force MAYBE THATS WHY IT HAS " AND THE WHOLE SHALL BE GREATER THEN THE SUM OF IT"S PARTS" THAME ??? If yor assumption would be true the comperation between EVERY SINGLE CORE UNIT would be accetable - so you could compere marines and hormagaunts - with points taken under concideration and based on the vin ratio say that hormagaunts suck because thay don't win with marines 50% times ...
The same goes with every slot fast , heavy and so on and so on - the inability to see and buld up an army that supports it's parts and depand on interaction between them is hmmmm .... amusing - If i were you I would play chackers instead ( than you would grasp the concept and made far better WH40K player ) .

The Fact is that nearly all armys depend on units working together if - BUT Marines and Necrons are 2 cases this is not valid - but thats what fluff tels us .

2) Hmm tell me what is Troops weapon of sisters with 24" range able to pirce throught 14 AV ?? and Tyranids ?? And ( oh joy ) Deamon Hunters - kid didn't have the slightest idea what's he writing about :/

And yes i know it's not gigglyjoker wrote that bull :/ he just quoted it...

tartek
30-12-2005, 17:38
Being a sisters player for 6 years I would like to know how a sisters player deal with AV14 in troops other than 12" inches or closer?.......


Ala Meltagun or HTH meltabomb....


Please enlighten me....cause if there is something out there we really want to know...

White Knight
30-12-2005, 17:47
I appreciate the effort to give a constructive response, gigglyjoker - it's articulate and presented well, but when it comes down to it, it seems totally based on your perceptions of how things work without actually giving any substance to your points. I really hope you don't take that as offensive, as that isn't my aim. To avoid being hypocritical myself, I'll try and back up my point with a little evidence.

Take your point on Railguns. First of all, yes, all the Railguns are only found in Heavy Support. However, most of the vehicles that need the attention of a Railgun (AV14) in an opponents army is, in fact, in Heavy Support. Additionally, and as has been pointed out previously, Seeker missiles are capable of poking holes in AV14 - just not very reliably. Come to that, neither is the Missile Launcher that you'll find on Tactical squads in most other armies. Sure, it can fire more, but only if it hasn't been ripped to pieces by the hail of basic pulse fire basic tau troops can kick out.

The same can be said for the short range weapons available to the Tau that CAN make a mockery of AV14 - yes, you have to close to within Assault range of enemy units to pull off an attack like this - so surely the answer is to make sure the enemy in position to assault aren't capable of doing so by, yep, hammering them with supporting fire from your basic pulse weapons.

In my humble and somewhat optimistic opinion, you are NOT arguing because the Tau cannot take out an AV14 vehicle with non-Heavy Support at 24 inches - they CAN. You appear to be arguing because you do not like their methods of doing so, and that they do it differently from every other army. Yes, they do, and I reckon that's cool.

Now, the point about Force Organisation charts destroying the effectiveness of a Tau force, I'd again have to argue that you are not looking at your options. Sure, your squad of Fire Warriors can't engage a Leman Russ head on without support from something like a Broadside or Hammerhead - so if this option is denied due to the deployment of forces, don't use them to engage the Leman Russ!.

Now, it may be my relative inexperience with the 4th Ed rules that are blinding me, but as far a I can see, the main culprit behind deployment issues is Escalation. You know what ususally gets deployed on the battlefield when I take my cadre? XV88-2s and Pathfinders. You'd be amazed at what they can deal with. :) Raids? Sure, here's a problem - except that his AV14 stuff will only be on the table for a couple of turns more than you "buster", at most - and once again, Pathfinders may deploy and make a pain in the butt of themselves as soon as the weapons start blazing. Plus, if defending, once your Railgunners turn up, their range makes them effective from the outset. Since a Battle, Raid or Breakthrough is played with player consent, due to the organisation restrictions, you can be adequately prepared.

As you say, every other race has a weapon capable of dishing it at 24 inches. Then again, every other race doesn't have Battlesuits. Every other race doesn't have Railguns. I just reckon you need to open your eyes more to the possibilities.

Once again, I mean no offense - and if my views have caused offense I apologise unreservedly. It's just my humble opinion. :)

blitz589
30-12-2005, 17:51
Being a sisters player for 6 years I would like to know how a sisters player deal with AV14 in troops other than 12" inches or closer?.......


Ala Meltagun or HTH meltabomb....


Please enlighten me....cause if there is something out there we really want to know...

Hope for the best with the exorsist, or Multimelta Devs, or that Dread HQ with a Multimelta that hits on a 2+.

Ally marines with LAz, or Guard with LAz, if you don't ally, your setting youself up for bad AT, so you shouldn't complain.

tartek
30-12-2005, 18:03
Was referring to standard TROOPS in response to the previous posters thread about how TAU FW cannot deal with AV14 and was saying how sisters forces can deal with them with their troops beyond 24" range.


Sure excorcist can hit and run against AV14 or even bring in other flavors of Guard etc... But your standard bog INQ storm trooper or NUNS With Guns cannot deal with them beyond the juicy Meltagun range. I have no gripe about it. It is just one of the aspects of the army I had selected to play. :)


As far as the Tau not being able to handle the AV 14....

Beyond the LR ,Monolith, & the Russ.... Thats about it that have AV 14.

Russ just out flank and pop it...
Others Use those lovely rail guns that are STR 10!

I WOULD LOVE MY EXCORCISTS TO BE STR 10....

DireStrike
30-12-2005, 22:34
He wasn't saying that TROOPS can't bust AV14, but that NOTHING BESIDES HEAVY SUPPORT can do it. Seekers are a bit more effective than EMPS, but neither really deserves to be mentioned under the current rules.

ripped to pieces by the hail of basic pulse fire basic tau troops can kick out.

That's another thing I'm sick of hearing. A full squad of Fire Warriors is only slightly more effective at anti-infantry than a full squad of marines with bolters, and slightly cheaper. Every marine squad designed for anti-infantry can boost its ability by including a heavy bolter for less than the price of a Tau flamer, a plasma gun at the cost of a burst cannon, a plasma cannon at the cost of two fire warriors. Fire Warriors are not awesome anti-infantry, they are passable. Considering how terrible they are in HtH, they should be more than passable. At their price, it's debateable, but they are overrated.

Now, broadsides and pathfinders are getting better. I will probably be taking a squad of pathfinders, or two, in all my games, and broadsides. Although pathfinders should probably be troops. If every marine squad with a transport became fast attack...

Lanfiex
30-12-2005, 22:51
i use emp, fusion and seeker a lot and they still do the job. i have even played with out rails and won, shock horror. any way if you bored go buy the forge world Fusion cannon they are very cool and powerful enought for the job

White Knight
31-12-2005, 01:40
That's another thing I'm sick of hearing. A full squad of Fire Warriors is only slightly more effective at anti-infantry than a full squad of marines with bolters, and slightly cheaper.

Cue slow clapping - yep, for 120 points - lets say 12 Fire Warriors and 7 Marines, one toting a heavy bolter, another a plasma gun, yes indeed, the Marines are fairly fearsome, and quite probably outclass the Fire Warriors. Big deal. At longer ranges, it'll be 3 Heavy Bolter Shots versus 12 Pulse Rifle shots.

And that isn't even the point!

I have always gotten sick and tired of hearing people whine about how much more effective this is than that, and how this army has to pay more for X and this army pays less for Y. Newsflash: IT'S ABOUT RELATIVE USE TO THE OWNING ARMY!

See, thing is, if someone were to take the aforementioned forces and put 'em in a fire fight, I would first of all expect the Marines to win, and secondly, without further a do, would congratulate the Tau player for NOT using his troops effectively. If each of these units engaged a bunch of Orks, the Tau would be ahead thanks to overall strength of shots, range and volume of fire. Guess what?

STILL IRRELEVANT. :eek:

The difference comes in the units that support those Fire Warriors. The difference comes in how I deploy those Fire Warriors as a means of finishing off things my XV8s, XV88s, Pathfinders and Tanks have pummelled. I'd take a different approach to dealing with a potential counter charge depending on the army - versus a Guard army, one could use XV8s with Fusion Blasters to take out the tank, while a hail of mid to long range shots from the Fire Warrior Teams does the business on the guarding assault troops. Versus Necrons, my priorities are going to be somewhat different. I mean, come on - how many times do we all REALLY get sick with Tau players taking Plasma Rifles on their XV8s? They are practically a fixture! Why? Something to do with the term "anti-marine"...

Also, given the fluff behind the Pathfinders as, well, Pathfinders (lead elements scouting out ahead of the main hunter cadre), Fast Attack is EXACTLY where they should be. ;)

And as for this;

Seekers are a bit more effective than EMPS, but neither really deserves to be mentioned under the current rules
I'll remember to tell that to my brother and his Land Raider.

Sure, they ain't perfect, but theycan manage in a pinch - as one of the previous posters mentioned, just how many AV14 units are you expecting to meet in a game? :confused:

Sorry if this is snappy, but please credit me with just a little more intelligence than assuming a lone squad of Fire Warriors own anything coming. :eyebrows:

night2501
31-12-2005, 15:00
well I think the problem is in the system not in the army :o
take the LoS thing for example, units should not be able to see/shot trought units, nor should units be able to assault things out of LoS at the start of the turn (how the hell did they know they where there...going into a posible ambush...),a weapon able to take a tank not ignoring/afecting a save of a personal armour (no save modifiers), other nice thing would be to allow only the models in the front to shot (this would automatically make shoting units to form lines, I fired rifles and you must be crazy to shot one of those things with someone of your squad in your arc of fire, even more on the move, well maibe that would be too much for most WH40K players to take...)
rambling mode off...

back on topic, yes I think tau got a lot more of anti necron power, in general alot more AP3 power to take down those pesky marines ^^

Myst
31-12-2005, 15:08
He wasn't saying that TROOPS can't bust AV14, but that NOTHING BESIDES HEAVY SUPPORT can do it.

The problem is you want the best of both worlds.

Tau already HAVE the best anti-armor weapon in the game. The price they pay is it is restricted. What you are asking for is the flexibility of marines yet the specialization of Tau.

I can tell you now, that is not going to happen...

DireStrike
31-12-2005, 16:08
The main problem, and I'm sorry if this is off-topic, is in facing marine armies. Fire Warriors suck against marines. They do not act as troops against marines. They are good for mop-up and little else. 30" range is only for one turn, and no marine squad is gonna care about the single casualty a full FW squad will cause in one turn. Even focusing fire they're just garbage. That is why you see so many elite- and heavy-heavy Tau armies. Gee, I wonder why so many people take plasma?

Fire Warriors sure are great against orks. I'll care when I face them more than once every 6 months.

I'm not complaining about the heavy weapons, I was merely trying to clarify the points of others. Although I would probably rather fire seekers at something other than heavy vehicles, and fusion will never be in range. It seems to be the character of Tau to have one gun/unit that is super fantastic at doing its job(Railgun/plasma), yet amazingly expensive and limited thanks to FOC, while the next weapon down the line is never to be relied on except for marginal damage.



Also, given the fluff behind the Pathfinders as, well, Pathfinders (lead elements scouting out ahead of the main hunter cadre), Fast Attack is EXACTLY where they should be. ;)

According to fluff, a battle where a single eldar dies is considered a loss, and Marines only lose to chaos. If pathfinders are out in front, they die. If they are in the back, they still die, your enemy just needs to pass a leadership test to target them. And marines don't fail leadership tests to shoot. Pathfinders sure do though.

Akuma
31-12-2005, 17:00
Kid calm down - 1 the new markerlight system will make FW better than any other unit in the game - the fact that enemy will be hit on 2+ is nothing to sneez at - the fact is that tau should always depend on one another and new ml system just stresses that - and new options - both pirs and Sr adds few new great tactics.

Tau were never mant to be troops army - thay combat doctirne is all about hunting - the troops just support better hunters - suited ones.

My reworked army will consist of Skyray; 2x Hammers; Piranha squad (2-3); Gund drones one path finders squad; 2 units of fire warriors some kroot and the rest will be filed with suites. - So the army wont change that much but few new details will make it much more competative.

and my personal win ratio aginst marine armys more then 100 games played with tau only is 75% - go figure ...

Mad Doc Grotsnik
31-12-2005, 17:48
And besides, believe it or not, but.... you don't need AP2 or AP3 to knack a Marine!

A unit of 12 Firewarriors (what, you use less?) will indeed only kill a single Marine on *average* however, with a couple of marker light hits, or even a single one can increase this exponentially. Chuck in a bit of pinning test from another unit, and bingo, one severely restricted Marine unit.

Tau are a dominance army. Lock down as much of the board with some clever deployment, and then proceed to take out threats to your force as they present themselves. Certainly, with Tau Firepower, there is absolutely NO reason any transport should be around by turn 2. And with the new entanglement (well, 4th Edition new!) thats them slowed down for a bit, even if immune to pinning, as EVERYONE can be entangled (is true!)

So, if your struggling against Marines, perhaps Tau aren't for you. Personally, I have always found Space Marines very easy to take on with Tau. There lack of numbers doesn't mix well with the amount of firepower I can pour on. Annihilate a squad here and there in the first couple of turns, and his battleline is severely comprimised, forcing him to play a reactive game. After that, he's pretty much defeated as long as you retain the initiative.

But Akuma, I would debate that Tau aren't a troopy army. I fully intend to get the rest of my Fire Warriors painted up, giving me 60, or 5 full troop units. For 600 points, 60 S5 shots early on, and only getting more as the enemy close in? In a 2,000 point game? Yes please Santa!

Akuma
31-12-2005, 18:17
Mad - how about i never play 2k in wh40k :D - we play 1800 tops and most of games are 1200 or 1500 - and terrain heavy tables :D - so fast movment is everything in my gaming group - thats why i refuse to use broads ;) - but if you play on open tables - yeah 60 fires make up for hell of a shots - not to mention rapid fire potential.

DireStrike
31-12-2005, 18:33
For me it will all hinge on how the new pathfinders work. It seems they will indeed make fire warriors worthwhile. If not, well, I'll just take one squad of 6 and hide it in a corner somewhere.

Marines lack of numbers? I'm lucky if I kill half of the damn things. I still stand by my idea that Tau do not have/cannot field enough effective anti-marine weaponry. Maybe it's just because no marine player here takes vehicles. I wouldn't either if I had those walking monstrosities ignoring 2/3 of "anti-infantry" shots. Tau don't have the miracle of winning in combat and destroying an entire unit when it breaks and runs, and their firepower really doesn't make up for that. All you can do is move over and clear off half the board... so long as your opponent doesn't have anything fast...right. That's probably why Tau can't get Victorious slaughters as much at GTs.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
31-12-2005, 18:41
To be honest though Direstrike, ANY army is lucky if it kills half it's opponents. And stop worrying about a slaughter! If you've played a game, and enjoyed yourself, that is all that matters.

DireStrike
31-12-2005, 18:43
All I know is that when I lose, I'm often wiped off the table. When I win, the reverse is never true. I do win at least around half the time, eking out a slight advantage mostly through dice luck. It's rarely very satisfying. I don't know how one can have fun if you're playing with a disadvantage, unless you're a much better player than those around you.

I guess I need to play chaos or marines like everyone else. Nothing is allowed to be powerful unless it has power armor. Power armor does NOT die from shooting. Not in massacre amounts. It only dies badly in assault. Assault still does FAR more damage than shooting in any game. Tau cannot dish out that sort of damage, and also cannot survive against it. That is what I've noticed. Perhaps I'm playing against unbalanced lists, with too much infantry and not enough vehicles, but there is no way, in my experience, to have a great victory against power armor with shooting. Possible exceptions are an eldar starcannon army, and a guard army with battle cannons.


A unit of 12 Firewarriors (what, you use less?) will indeed only kill a single Marine on *average* however, with a couple of marker light hits, or even a single one can increase this exponentially.

Come to think of it, it really won't. Lets take BS5 fire warriors. 12 Shots, 10 hits, 6-7 wounds, 2-3 dead marines, leaning towards 2. BS3 Fire Warriors are 12 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 1-2 dead marines, leaning towards 1. An increase of one... maybe I won't be buying that second pathfinder squad.

That marine armor is INCREDIBLY expensive to negate. You're right, you don't NEED ap3 to do it. A fire warrior with a pulse carbine can. A guardsman can even do it. And they can both kill a carnifex in close combat. Neither is likely, or efficient.

Vespids keep looking better. Sniper drones as well.

TheShadow3s
31-12-2005, 20:40
Too many marine boys players , and everything 3+ save
Well I think that markers certainley make tau more effecient and get or plasma hitting al the time , still I hope stingwings are better then what we have seen until now . Cause else were in a world of hurt , and I have the same thing like direstrike if tau lose we are completly wiped out and IF we win it's a narrow win . That surely says something about balance

Vineas
01-01-2006, 01:42
DireStrikes opinion (and no offense intended but this is how I am seeing you come across) is the same shared by all the 40k players in my town (except I and a buddy of mine). If it's not a SMurf it sucks. Totally untrue. I know a lot of marine players who would love to have a S5 rapid fire weapon. T3 and 4+ save armor isn't that hot but it's all about fire saturation and 4th even stresses this. 12 FW not making a dent in a tac squad? Use the ML to lower the LD of offending Marine unit to make them break or pin easier.

I for one am happy with the changes being made to Tau. They won't ever be MEQ's but if I want MEQ's I'll just start up Dark Angels when they come out in 2k6-2k7.

It's to the Tau's advantage to go up against Marines with mostly foot sloggers. We can outmanuever them and use terrain to our advantage. As Mad Doc implied there is no reason Tau should fight on SM terms. If you let Marines put you on the defensive then you played into their hand and you deserve to lose. Keep the momentum in your favor by outsmarting, outmanuevering the opponent.

Not hard to do with Tau (or Eldar who are more fragile but that's not to be discussed here).

Toxxys
01-01-2006, 03:30
I too am very happy with the new changes and additions to the Tau.

Combos involving marker lights, rail sniping, and carbine shooting (or simply transport-popping with entanglement) are going to make it much easier for a tau army to be a "supremacy force."

Think about it... how many things are actually immune to pinning checks (nids and necrons: nids swarms can be turned to goop by fire warriors and stealthsuits- and necrons just don't have huge numbers on the field).

That means that against many other opponents, you could pop transport vehicles to tie up squads for thier turn and/or pin several other units to tie them up also (that's stuff you won't have to worry about getting closer or shooting you back- both of which REALLY HURT the Tau). Considdering that Piranhas can basically drop a drone squad (with carbines- more pinning checks) that can disrupt the enemy force even more (including charging in). When you don't have to worry about all of the opponent's infantry (I would personally pin heavier guys like termis and ork boss units), you can take out some vehicles and let fire warriors begin blasting the rest of the infantry (or mop up the ones being transported).

Alternatively, if most infantry are entangled/pinned, FW Shas'ui w/ marker drones could be used to mark up heavier vehicles/beasts for seekers and/or railguns (that is of course when ther'e line-of-sight).

I see it like this- other armies are good at close combat; tau's defense against it was shooting, which they're not perfect at. Tau should be able to play "keep away" a whole heck of a lot better now to make up for their sucky HtH. New markerlight rules are almost going to guaruntee that.

I think we'll be seeing tau forces centered around disruptive supremacy tactics now too... seems like they might be quite effective. Also, it might seem like a small change, but Krootoxen not taking up Heavy slots is going to add much needed firepower (basically a close-range autocannon) to our troops slots, I know I'm going to take them- plus they're awesome at HtH with 3 S6 attacks and W3 & T5 for being wounded.

I'm definitely loving the much-needed flexebility of the Tau list... and I don't think we'll be seeing as many "whiped-off-the-table" defeats like we have been.


((More onto the actual topic of the title of the thread...))

I Highly doubt that the Neutron Blasters of the Vespid will do anything like "not allowing saves better than 4+." Remember when that was the original rumored bonus of pulse rifles when the Tau first came out (in addition to being 36" range)? Yeah... highly doubt it. I did read a new rumor in one of these threads that pulse rifles would be 36" in the new book... it would be nice, but I doubt that too (having 6" on most regular guns was already good, but 12", c'mon, standard guns shouldn't be that much better).

Vineas
01-01-2006, 03:59
The hard part is going to be choosing a force composition. We are getting spoiled for choices.....spanky new gear for Commanders, lots of Fast units to choose from (and none of it all that bad I can tell) and the decision between Skyray, Hammerhead, Ionhead or Move-and-shoot Broadsides.

Ack, the choices. I'm gonna have a headache trying to assemble lists (and that's a good thing).

Toxxys
01-01-2006, 04:37
The choices just expand the flexibilty for making different types of armies. The flexibilty just wasn't really there before. The trick is not trying to do too much at once. My brother (who plays Eldar and Speed Freeks- both undefeated mind you), says he likes to make his armies concentrate on doing two things very well... not doing a lot of different things decently and without enough of one thing to do it well. So the trick is to concentrate on certain aspects of this new flexibility.

Now we can make armies with a hard-hitting preemptive stike using Piranhas, their drones, and a barrage of seeker missiles and other nastiness triggered by pathfinders as the rest of your army gets into better firing positions or help support or mop up what's left of the first strike.

We can also field better mechanized lists using Smart Missiles on FW Fishies and give half or more carbines for pinning... when they pop out that's 12 of their shots +7 fish shots at S5 AP5... and with some pathfinder marking support can hit and pin squads easier that don't die all the way from the pulse salvo (like marines).

With the additions of vespid and sniper-drone teams we'll be able to make more capable anti-marine (and MEQ) army lists against people who don't like vehicles. There have been many games I played agains marine armies that have only 1 vehicle (or 0 mind you)... those have always been hard to beat.

The Kroot thing alone bolsters quite a few lacking areas such as higher troop-slot firepower and turns a "just-above-decent" HtH unit into a "pretty darn good" HtH unit (hounds are I4 and a Krootox is a monster).

Vineas
01-01-2006, 05:19
I'm leaning toward NO KROOT in my Tau army. I might try some for a few games but I had them before in 3rd and didn't see wasting the points.

I want mostly mechanized/fast and that's why it's so hard to choose Broadsides over 3 HH or 3 IH or 3 Skyray (or 1 + 2) if Skyray has a 0-1 limit on it. Hell, Sniper Drones sound useful as hell too (and kind of fit Mech Tau theme).

blitz589
01-01-2006, 08:07
I'm leaning toward NO KROOT in my Tau army. I might try some for a few games but I had them before in 3rd and didn't see wasting the points.

I want mostly mechanized/fast and that's why it's so hard to choose Broadsides over 3 HH or 3 IH or 3 Skyray (or 1 + 2) if Skyray has a 0-1 limit on it. Hell, Sniper Drones sound useful as hell too (and kind of fit Mech Tau theme).
Plain Mech Tau, still seems like the best option, for the new dex, Is a pitty those piranhas are so big, otherwise 15 of them, would be cool, each squad getting 25 shots, Mass anti infantry. Even Necrons would fall to that. And theres always the chance to pin something.

Broadsides moving and shooting, has potential, but no submunition, for when all the tanks die, so 3 hammer heads is still good, unless the points changes.

Akuma
01-01-2006, 12:54
I get opposite impression - with the new additions you could play something totaly diffrent from mech tau - why ??? Because you dont need that much mobility now as we got few thing's that close up tau list as the most flexible and tacticly chalanging army to play :D ( exept for eldar that is ).

1) The HS slots - only 3 and my choices will be sniper , skyray , and either one hammerhead OR 3 broadsides - why ??? - if the broadsides get the SaP rule and new drone rules are true - it will be much much harder to kill them with anti tank weapon than hammie ( so 6 man lance plasm squads won't be so efective ) and thay pack 3 railgun shots ( with much better chance of hitting - for only a tad more expensive than hammie is ) - with new markerlight rules and skyray you dont need the mobility of hammerhead - simply mark with one of marking units ( and there is a lot of them ) and fire of - sure it wont pop predator , monolith and so on - BUT it's great aginst transports and such - and 3 broadsides that hitting on +2 with a re reoll will probably decimate any 14av target in one turn ( mind the new 1ap rule form 4ed )

To put it short - hammie may not be the best option in hs anymore ;)

2) New piranha - if someone knows the probable cost - post it - i would use in squads of 2-3 - great for marking AND screening ( broadsiede screen anyone ?? )

But the thing is that tau are going to be ultiumate pinning army - the fact that markerlight hit can lowet ld for the purposes of pinning test gives you the ultimate tool - hard squad charges you'r lines ??? hit it with pinning then shoot the hell out of them when thay try to pull together - repeat every turn - no uber cc squad ( exept for those beeing feraless ) will threat you the way it diod before.

3) The fact that you can coustumise suits so much now will make them even more appiling - think of posibilitys for self destruction and so on - psychological warfere in tau army - hell yeah

All in all we didn't see it ( some of us did ) but we can safly say that it is geared twords not one dimensional play - sure mech will still be aveliable BUT it wont be the only option if you want to be competative :))).

Toxxys
01-01-2006, 18:00
Yeah, good points... but I don't think Piranhas have markerlights... and I think one of their best functions is as a drone deploying unit- think of the disruption they would cause if they zoom up and suddenly they're two units (one of which pins and can engage in HtH- two very disruptive things)!

Plus I like having my fire warriors chill sort of close to my broadsides so they can protect from mass infantry or mop up popped transport survivors.

I've never liked the idea of mech tau for the way I play, so the way I see it, the new dex will be good for people like me- I would rather field many more units than take a bunch of transports (which in fact should be getting better with smart missiles).

When I started playing and testing tau when they were first released I thought kroot could be pretty good, but they fell out of favor for me because they're not that good in close combat (the whole surviving thing to keep using those 2 S4 attacks). I think that we'll be seeing more kroot now that their added firepower + close combat strength no longer takes up a Heavy slot.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
02-01-2006, 17:29
Lets take BS5 fire warriors. 12 Shots, 10 hits, 6-7 wounds, 2-3 dead marines, leaning towards 2. BS3 Fire Warriors are 12 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 1-2 dead marines, leaning towards 1. An increase of one... maybe I won't be buying that second pathfinder squad.

That marine armor is INCREDIBLY expensive to negate. You're right, you don't NEED ap3 to do it. A fire warrior with a pulse carbine can. A guardsman can even do it. And they can both kill a carnifex in close combat. Neither is likely, or efficient.



Oh come on. Power Armour is no where near as invincible as you make out. It will save 2 in 3 wounds, and your 4+ save will see you through half the wounds you take. Not such a huge advantage really, an additional 16%! True however, that there are more weapons that ignore 4+ than 3+ saves, so I like to make sure I have some kind of cover to either hide in or scuttle into when the heat is up.

Also, please do not forget Marines come in surprisingly pitiful numbers! A nicely tooled up Tactical squad can easily start to broach 200 points, and Terminators? Well, they are just begging to be shot up, or even better, pinned exactly where they are!

Marines are NOT, repeat, NOT overpowered. If your games go as you claim, I'm afraid to say it's your tactics which are in question. Perhaps your just playing against more skilled opponents, but I can guarantee you it is not the list!

Toxxys
02-01-2006, 21:35
True. I've usually been fielding 4 units of 12 (less= bad) firewarriors. They're great against armies with lower armor. Space marines do give trouble, but there are so few marines compared to lower-armored armies that they're just about as much to worry about. You can always shoot two squads at one tac squad and and almost cut them in half (and sometimes more).

Usually it's pretty proportional... but not when the marine player shuns vehicles and you find him fielding 70-80 marines. That's when it's hard (it's hard for almost any army). Sure it's up to the player how they deal with it, but sometimes you don't have the models to bring to get a good list that packs a lot of punch.

One of my favorite things against marines is stealth squads with firewarrior support. 18 stealth-dude shots + 12 more from fire warriors (and sometimes 2 more from stealth gun-drones) tends to do nasty things to tactical squads.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
02-01-2006, 22:58
If your opponent fields a Marine army entirely on foot, then use this to your advantage. Keep on the move. Unlike the nimble Tau, Marines need to stop for a breather before unleashing their really pokey weapons. So keep on the move, avoiding firing lines unless the squad covering it is about to be annihilated!

Before you know it, the Marines are being whittled down.

My key to defeating any enemy with Tau. Well, I say it's a key, it's more a case of target priority.

1. Enemy Armour and Firebase. These should be tackled in the first turn, with an eye to achieveing ranged dominance of the board.

2. Fast moving assault units. Around turn 2, these need to be culled. Hopefully, by this time, they will have foolishly left themselves within rapid fire range, meaning they really ought to be dead by the end of turn 3 at the latest. Kroot are handy for locking down one unit, as their sheer numbers, and lack of expense, will overwhelm anything, especially given their respectable combat prowess.

3. Anything thats left, shoot it!

By following these three, you should find the enemy army broken up into smaller, far more manageable chunks. It is my experience that the main cause of loss for Tau Generals is panic, and trying to target everything in sight. This simply does not work, for although our guns are pokey, we don't have enough. Applied firepower, however, will force the enemy to respond to gaps you open up in his lines. Remember, even a well defended strong point can be shattered by a single turn of co-ordinated firepower!

N.B. And exactly the same goes for anything Necron, except your prime targets should be Monoliths, and Tomb Spyders. With these doubtless dead in the first couple of turns, and your troops in solid cover, you can start picking them off, a squad at a time. If he has a unit of 10 Immortals, ensure they all die in the same turn, thus preventing their return.

nice and easy does it!

DireStrike
02-01-2006, 23:37
I'd really like to know where you're playing that marines come in pitiful numbers. Maybe I can come there and enjoy a few games.

Marines have much more survivability (16% is a small number, but spread it across 50 models it gets a lot more meaning...) a little less firepower, and far more assault power than Tau infantry. If you get caught in assault, you die. If you get caught shooting, you'll break even because their weaker guns are matched by your weaker health. Also, your troops will break occasionally while marines with across-the-board ld10 will not. That break for them, even if it happens, means little, but for you it's a turn (or more) you can't maneuver, can't shoot, and somebody gets closer to holding you in combat. I really don't see how basic marines get off being so cheap.

You know what the problem could be? I think it is that I've been told, since I started playing, that Tau were a shooty army. They're not. They're a moving army. Their shooting is slightly above average, but most opponents' defense is slightly above average. Their only way to inflict damage is through shooting, and Tau simply can't do it against the vast majority of armies' infantry (of course, with the possible exception of the new and untested units and changes.) So instead of inflicting damage on the enemy, the way to win is by trading long range shots, running away most of the time, and hoping your opponent isn't a true shooty army. With this mode of operation, you won't kill your opponent - only kill some of his army and hide from the rest. I want to be feared and deadly as all other armies can be. Now, orks I can wipe out to a man. Tyranids and eldar too, and guard. Even opposing Tau. But there simply is not enough firepower to clean an infantry-heavy 3+ save army off the table. We may be able to do it with vespids, sniper drones, and plasma crisis suits, but we will still be as fragile as a frozen flower petal, and we will have to heavily specialize to do it.

Necrons of course are even worse than marines. It takes 180 points of fire warriors to make sure ONE necron will stay down. Chaos also, sporting numerous fast and deadly squads. Bike and Jetpack heavy marine armies cause problems too. You really, REALLY need ap3 or better weapons to deal with your standard warrior-horde necron army, speed-marines, or hyper-fast chaos army. I'm glad that we are finally getting a few real anti-infantry options - even if they have severe drawbacks. It will be nice to at least have the OPTION to pay exorbitant prices to inflict some notable damage.

athamas
03-01-2006, 00:35
side note: scroll to bottom, for quick note, i kinda ramble abit, sorry!


ok i have been playing abit of winter war at my local GW on 4'x4' boards, with a 1k army.

i have been using a heavily mech tau army, as in 12 fire warriors, 1 HH , 5 steath suits, and the rest crisis with MP, PR and MT.

i played both death-wing and raven-wing,
the death-wing was a masacare to me, my fire warriors died withoug doing a thing, there was nothing they could do/hurt effectivly they took pot shots at the terminators and died horribly to the assult cannon fire.

the game was rather amusing [last time i played this guy it was 1.5k and i was destroyed to a man...] as i spent the whole time jumping around, he could never get closes enough to hurt me, he never got a shot of at the crisis suits, the biggets problem was the dread, that managed to shoot down HH, but i managed to knock it out with a MP..


it was a good game, and remarcably fun, with me trying to stay out of LOs from him...


the next game was against raven wing... a mix of bikes and landspeeders, i only just lost, and had i taken an ion cannon i might have killed a few more bikes, and got the upper hand, it was close but i relied on my cruisis suits to hurt anything,

the current lacking of ap 3 weaponry in the tau army is its downfall, and most of that weaponry comes on Bs 3 crisis suits, the tau elites are not elites, they are basic troops in decent armour... that gives them the ability to take multiple weapons,

pathfinders are good, but nothing will walk out infront of them if they are positioned well with battle suit suport, yes its good tacticaly, but it does not help you to stop the enemy from closing with you...

with the possibility of a points drop for crisis suits, and the ability to give them targeting arays, [im thinking team leaders here] they will become slightly better, but still, firewarriors do not cut it as is,

they are... to put it bluntly... not worth it... i used to run 48 fire warriors, i had good games, they were fun, i rolled alot of dice and i died alot, and hardly won any games, it was good fun, but i was getting fed up loosing... the tactics were there, against non power armourd armies i pulverised them, but against marines, i died horribly... so i moved to crisis suits, which are just about effective,

the tau army is divided into very distinct units, each with a pourpose, and each is good at that particular one, however, many of the units tau need to take to be effective are in limited availibility, or are difficult to take properly, eg. the pathfinders, thay have to have an 80pt tank thay will basicly never use, and they cant move and fire, meaning they have to have LOS to their target at the start of their turn, making them rather suseptable to enemy fire. this makes the sky ray a rather good choice as its has 2 marker lights,

the tau have the potential to be very devestating, esp. against lightly armoured armies, where their mass quantity of S5Ap5 weaponry is devestating, however against things with armour they have problems, as they are rather bad at cracking it...

other races get round this with power weapons, which nearly every army has in large numbers, however tau lack these ap2 [which is what they are really] weapons, and generaly suck in CC, thus have to kill things at range, yet, crisis suits cost so much [65pts a pop] to be really effective, [well MP,PR,MT] a good marine squad costs ~130 points, [6 guys, plasma, hvy bolter and a sgt with stuff] they can engauge any target, have more wounds, and a power weapon, and you can field 6 of these squads with easy, where as a tau player is limited to 3 basic squads of crisis suits, that are venearable to anti tank weaponry and worse in CC, with less fire power...



Anyway, ill stop rambling now, thankyou if you have read all that...
basicly we need to wait and see what happens, as the new codexwill hopefully adress several of the current issues with the tau army as a whole, and get them back on track!

Toxxys
03-01-2006, 03:19
Yeah, crisis suits definitely have it bad, and I'm glad the points for their weapons are being tweaked... and I hope they get a slight points drop. They are getting a few bonusses like the "enhanced senses" thing, so their points may not drop at all.

Another thing worth noting, which nobody brought up, was that it's always been hard to get that 40% of points for troops, making many of us suffer in the "Army Composition" score in real and official style tournaments. (well you mech army people probably didn't have it as hard)

So it's good that the Kroot squad will be buffed up nicely (even though the ox's kroot gun is only AP4). Sorry if I keep bringing that up but I'm just so excited that those big dumb oxen don't take up HS anymore! Kroot will definitely have a place in my armies and will make up a nice percentage of points for my army.

TheShadow3s
03-01-2006, 12:08
I think a lot has been said here that is true about tau the really can't kill high save army's ( when I play em I either lose all or just win , I use every tactic I got while the marine boy just walks at me with no tactic at all ) we need ap weapons more of em . Also I do not understand why crisis have a normal bs of 4 all the time cause they served how many years at teh front ? 6 , shouldn't they be veterans? seriously hope that tau get increased firepower against those army's ( they need too since everybody has marines )
I do think that the pathfinders will be fixed and make sure well hit more often and make more kills ( at least I hope so and don't get killed everytime I use em , by every troop in the enemy's army shooting at em )

xerxeshavelock
03-01-2006, 12:50
But there simply is not enough firepower to clean an infantry-heavy 3+ save army off the table. We may be able to do it with vespids, sniper drones, and plasma crisis suits, but we will still be as fragile as a frozen flower petal, and we will have to heavily specialize to do it.

It is achievable, but as you have said requires heavy specialisation. I used to go Crisis Heavy and cleared several tables at the GT of troops. If the opponent are expecting to fight Tau they will load up on units that make this strategy untenable. Whirlwinds, Jump Packers, Bikes, all these are high threats and will need planning to neutralise. Any unit withmultiple Lascannons or equivalent is a threat to your tanks, so need to be removed as well. Once you have learned to deal with these you should be able to chomp through large volumes of MEQ infantry. Often when they see what happens to their first wave they spend the rest of the game hiding their troops, the challenge then becomes how to inflict the maximum casualties without loss yourself.

gigglyjoker
03-01-2006, 18:15
He wasn't saying that TROOPS can't bust AV14, but that NOTHING BESIDES HEAVY SUPPORT can do it. Seekers are a bit more effective than EMPS, but neither really deserves to be mentioned under the current rules.


That's another thing I'm sick of hearing. A full squad of Fire Warriors is only slightly more effective at anti-infantry than a full squad of marines with bolters, and slightly cheaper. Every marine squad designed for anti-infantry can boost its ability by including a heavy bolter for less than the price of a Tau flamer, a plasma gun at the cost of a burst cannon, a plasma cannon at the cost of two fire warriors. Fire Warriors are not awesome anti-infantry, they are passable. Considering how terrible they are in HtH, they should be more than passable. At their price, it's debateable, but they are overrated.

Now, broadsides and pathfinders are getting better. I will probably be taking a squad of pathfinders, or two, in all my games, and broadsides. Although pathfinders should probably be troops. If every marine squad with a transport became fast attack...

At least one person here understands, and actually reads what is posted.

For the people above (Akuma): Witchhunters and Daemonhunters have multi-meltas available to HQ and Elites, and Tyranids have Venom Cannons in HQ.

And for all you people who are so adamant in your defense of Tau, here´s a question:

Can you justify taking 6 Tau troops choices? Indeed I CAN compare Tau troops to the troops of other races. As was said in my previous post, it DOES matter where in the force organization chart heavy weapons are found. If you have no heavy weapons, and thus no anti-tank ability in your Troops choice, then look at how much less valuable they become. The point is, that since every army is always given more troops choices than any other section of the FoC (and this especially in non-standard missions), every army´s Troops choice MUST be capable of achieving a certain level of performance. Because of the inflexibility of the Tau troops, they fall below par far more than any other race.

Indeed, every race´s troops choice has a reasonable ability to take out AV14 (taking into consideration each armies characteristics), but NOT Tau. Daemonhunters could be argued otherwise, but they can be given meltabombs and are comfortable in assault range. But even Daemonhunters (along with every other race, EXCEPT Tau) has any such inability buffered due to the fact that they also have anti-AV14 ability in other parts of the FoC than Heavy Support.

But not Tau. So weak in close combat. And yet the only weapons that can take out AV14 that don´t risk CC are in Heavy Support.

-gigglyjoker

DireStrike
03-01-2006, 18:29
Xerxeshavelock, you obviously feel that the Tau have the necessary tools available now, right? What exactly are the tools that should be used to take out large numbers of fast/threatening MEQs? How do you fare against necrons, particularly warrior-heavy with veil of darkness? What do you think of the new options: necessary? Helpful?

Joker, you are leaving out seekers. I won't say they're a very good option, but they are there. My beef with firewarriors is that there is so much they CAN'T do, that they need to be a lot better at the one thing they can/are supposed to do, anti-infantry. And they're not, against MEQs.

Oh, also it was recently pointed out in another thread that Krootoxen might be a good unit - soon to be pure TROOPS - for light-medium vehicle killing at range. Of course Kroot have their own problems, but they're pretty good in the right cover.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-01-2006, 18:31
All I can say is god forbid your Heavy Support does exactly what it says on the tin!

And a Seeker Missile doesn't leave you in HTH range either. And besides, who cares about HTH when your shooting a Landraider, or a Monolith? The Monolith doesn't technically carry anything, and when you knack the Landraider, whoever was inside is stuck where they are, being entangled and all.....

Toxxys
03-01-2006, 20:56
Can you justify taking 6 Tau troops choices?


Another thing worth noting, which nobody brought up, was that it's always been hard to get that 40% of points for troops, making many of us suffer in the "Army Composition" score in real and official style tournaments. (well you mech army people probably didn't have it as hard)

Nope! lol

But as I've said over and over, vehicle busting can now be done a little bit better in troops using Krootoxen. Oh and using FW Shas'Ui with markerlight and a marker drones will make them more effective at using seekers too (while wasting the pulse shots).

If not for seekers they can at least shoot and mark a squad and let a crisis team mop up the rest of them.

Achieving the 40% points in troops will be easier, but still not extremely effective and yet there will be much more flexibility in the rest of the army, so just wait for the new codex, read it, play it, and hopefully enjoy it. From what I've been hearing I will definitely enjoy it.

Mr. Shadowsun
03-01-2006, 23:34
okay for the final time, the tau are designed so that fire warriors do not need heavy weapons. they are there to take out other troops choices, which when looking over most armies, they are excellent at doing. its just that the 40k universe is overrun by power armoured armies that they are regarded as poor. there are a measly 5 armies that have a 3+ save pretty much as standard. the rest are confined to 5+ in the majority. comparing a fire warrior to most basic infantry shows how good they really are. 4+ save, S5, 30" range weapons as standard, and all for only 10 pts. most armies would give anything fro a single squad of fire warriors in their lines. also what people seem to want to believe is that shooty armies are static. tau break this mould with a pneumatic drill and feed the pieces to the kroot. things like the hammerhead, pathfinders and battlesuits main advantage is mobility, not powerful weapons. tau have the ability to pack up and redeploy their forces without comprimising their firepower too drastically, something the guard could never do.

athamas
04-01-2006, 07:49
yes, and against gaurd, esp. those without caraprace armour,, a competent tau comander will masacre them..

however something stupid like 70% of armies are Space marines... and this is the army tau has the most difficulty with...

xerxeshavelock
04-01-2006, 11:32
Xerxeshavelock, you obviously feel that the Tau have the necessary tools available now, right? What exactly are the tools that should be used to take out large numbers of fast/threatening MEQs? How do you fare against necrons, particularly warrior-heavy with veil of darkness? What do you think of the new options: necessary? Helpful?


Direstrike, by going Crisis-heavy you can remove a squad within 18” per turn, by waiting to use your Instant Death weapons until the end you can usually take out a character as well. The only question is usually how much firepower you have left to start whittling down your next target. Your opponent will try to counter this by manoeuvring so he engages you on all fronts at once, this is where you need to out-manoeuvre him, or use sacrificial units (Kroot etc). Mostly, though, they will not be fast enough to do this as assault vehicles are no serious threat.

I am starting to use units of 8 Fire Warriors hidden to rapid-fire and thin down opposition before committing my more flexible Elite shots – will let you know how it goes.

As to Necrons, the army deals quite nicely with them. Sure, the opponent can pull the Veil trick, but can at best neutralise one target with this whole squad. They will then lose half the unit to shooting (assuming the above- you kill the whole squad and half stand up) If you are lucky enough to lay them all down they will not be able to get back up as there will be no Necrons of type within 6”. It’s nasty, but not game-breaking.

I like all the new options, they seem quite balanced. I think Vespids will be fairly good. The main problem will be not power, but flexibility/ease of use. Some choices will be better against all comers, whereas some will be specialised. A bit like the Ionhead being great against Necrons as it can kill a squad of 3 Destroyers, but the Railhead being better against most other armies.

gigglyjoker
04-01-2006, 13:37
okay for the final time, the tau are designed so that fire warriors do not need heavy weapons. they are there to take out other troops choices, which when looking over most armies, they are excellent at doing. its just that the 40k universe is overrun by power armoured armies that they are regarded as poor. there are a measly 5 armies that have a 3+ save pretty much as standard. the rest are confined to 5+ in the majority. comparing a fire warrior to most basic infantry shows how good they really are. 4+ save, S5, 30" range weapons as standard, and all for only 10 pts. most armies would give anything fro a single squad of fire warriors in their lines. also what people seem to want to believe is that shooty armies are static. tau break this mould with a pneumatic drill and feed the pieces to the kroot. things like the hammerhead, pathfinders and battlesuits main advantage is mobility, not powerful weapons. tau have the ability to pack up and redeploy their forces without comprimising their firepower too drastically, something the guard could never do.

Nah, I think Firewarriors are the weakest troops choice of any race no matter how you look at it. They are worse than Sisters of Battle and Marines against other infantry, even taking into account the extra range, and if I ever wanted to take out vehicles I´d do a much better job with a couple heavy or special weapons.

And that´s not even considering how much Firewarriors suck in close combat.

-gigglyjoker

getupandgo
04-01-2006, 15:08
Nah, I think Firewarriors are the weakest troops choice of any race no matter how you look at it. They are worse than Sisters of Battle and Marines against other infantry, even taking into account the extra range, and if I ever wanted to take out vehicles I´d do a much better job with a couple heavy or special weapons.

And that´s not even considering how much Firewarriors suck in close combat.

-gigglyjoker

Point for point, I'd take firewarriors over just about any other basic troop. sure they suck in hand to hand, but that's because they are the best shooting army there is. Best basic weapon range and strength, and the only one that can have a good chance at blowing up light vehicles, allowing your mid range weaponry to focus on other targets.
Strength 5 also has a decent chance at doing damage to those pesky T6 targets...
I think you're way off saying they're the weakest basic troop choice.

xerxeshavelock
04-01-2006, 17:52
I think you're way off saying they're the weakest basic troop choice.

Gotta agree. They don't stand up well in a gun line, it's not that sort of army, but I know if it was a choice of walking round a corner and meeting 10 guys these would be well down my list.

Toxxys
04-01-2006, 19:09
It's fun popping ork trukkz with a squad of firewarriors (no other infantry on the board, what else can you do but free up shots for the big guns?). I like the look on my opponent's face when that happens.

Lanfiex
04-01-2006, 22:27
Nah, I think Firewarriors are the weakest troops choice of any race no matter how you look at it. They are worse than Sisters of Battle and Marines against other infantry, even taking into account the extra range, and if I ever wanted to take out vehicles I´d do a much better job with a couple heavy or special weapons.

And that´s not even considering how much Firewarriors suck in close combat.

-gigglyjoker


if you are playing tau you playing the wrong army. its not your style. ever single unit is good if used in the right way, i know that all the tau units are as such.

Krootman
05-01-2006, 20:12
The sms on the fish will be sweet, althow the 2man drone units are a hard thing to drop as they can lock things up and ud be surprised how lucky you can get and end up pinning something. Im really looking foward to seeing the parahs rules and seeing what it can do, I def plan on taking a few.

Varath- Lord Impaler
06-01-2006, 02:08
Hey, everyone says that the pathfinder devilfish is useless. How so? With a 24 inch move you could move to the side of an enemy's battleline forcing Ld checks to shoot other vehicles and soaking fire and if it does survive it can tank shock a HUGE portion of the enemy army

...cant it?

wwomack
06-01-2006, 02:52
The devilfish does not have a 24 inch move. It has a 12 inch move.

There is an upgrade that lets it fire as if it is a fast vehicle but it is not considered a fast vehicle for movement.

Lanfiex
06-01-2006, 03:02
hes talking about the scout move 12" before the game 12" once its started

DireStrike
06-01-2006, 05:08
How so? With a 24 inch move you could move to the side of an enemy's battleline forcing Ld checks to shoot other vehicles and soaking fire and if it does survive it can tank shock a HUGE portion of the enemy army

Again, think... who is the opponent? Nine times out of ten, the answer is marines or chaos marines. Almost every marine squad has some piece of disgusting weaponry in it that makes it stupid to tank shock, and chaos is even worse. A great deal of marine players will take a Master, meaning they won't fail a tank shock or shooting leadership check enough to justify using an 80 point tank in such a manner. Chaos are even worse, often fearless or not particularly interested in shooting anything...

And even if it were useful, what does it have to do with a pathfinder squad? It'll take two or three turns to redeploy them well enough with their heavy weapons, and by then a skilled opponent will have shifted around to avoid this, or simply run up for the charge. A transport for a heavy weapons team is not really a great idea...

gigglyjoker
06-01-2006, 17:05
Gotta agree. They don't stand up well in a gun line, it's not that sort of army, but I know if it was a choice of walking round a corner and meeting 10 guys these would be well down my list.

Why?

-gigglyjoker

The Wraithlord
06-01-2006, 17:22
Yeah, one of the primary reasons I don't take Pathfinders currently is the useless Devilfish. For a unit that is supposed to sneak ahead into cover to mark out enemy units for the rest of the army, having to take a noisey, expensive transport is just stupid. Devilfish are for Troops imho, not Fast Attack.

xerxeshavelock
06-01-2006, 17:39
Why?

-gigglyjoker

Because they lay down some fairly effective firepower for their points.

Lanfiex
06-01-2006, 22:15
Yeah, one of the primary reasons I don't take Pathfinders currently is the useless Devilfish. For a unit that is supposed to sneak ahead into cover to mark out enemy units for the rest of the army, having to take a noisey, expensive transport is just stupid. Devilfish are for Troops imho, not Fast Attack.


there not for being sneekey with. there fast scouts, they given a transport to get them where they need to be and fast. if any thing there a rapid responce unit hence the transport. if they where going to be stealthy they have stealth suits.

The Wraithlord
06-01-2006, 22:21
See I see scouts as a group of troopers (from any army) that move ahead of the main force, quietly scouting out terrain, enemy deployment, etc. NOT bringing a roaring transport to get somewhere quickly. Hell, I would take a slight increase in the basic cost of a Pathfinder if it meant I didn't need the useless transport that is completely at odds with the whole 'stand still and fire' point of the markerlights that you take them for.

Lanfiex
06-01-2006, 23:06
See I see scouts as a group of troopers (from any army) that move ahead of the main force, quietly scouting out terrain, enemy deployment, etc. NOT bringing a roaring transport to get somewhere quickly. Hell, I would take a slight increase in the basic cost of a Pathfinder if it meant I didn't need the useless transport that is completely at odds with the whole 'stand still and fire' point of the markerlights that you take them for.

the are different tatics for scouts. as the tau are a fast army need to relocate very quickly. pathfinders are dispached to scout out the battle feild only 1 hour or less before the main army arrive. i say it again, stealth and infilrating enemy positions is the job of stealth teams, not pathfinders. scout means to run a head of the main group and determine battle feild information. i feel that the pathfinders do that very well and pathfinders need there fish too be used effectivly and would not use them with out it.

DireStrike
06-01-2006, 23:16
I feel that pathfinders have nothing to do with their fluff at all, as to how they operate in game. "Operate ahead of the lines"? More like behind them. "Scout"? only because they have markerlights can any sort of informing activity be connected to their gameplay. Their scout move can sometimes have an impact, but often I find my opponent completely deployed long before I reach my fast attack choices, and putting pathfinders outside of your deployment zone is almost always a bad idea.

But if we were playing by fluff, A 2000 point space marine army would be 3 models, and Eldar would lose the game if a single ranger died. I am happy with pathfinders (probably.) I can even see occasional uses for the devilfish. However, if I had the option, I definitely would not take it every game. I see no reason to force us to take it, except to drive up the points cost of pathfinders.

The Wraithlord
07-01-2006, 01:01
However, if I had the option, I definitely would not take it every game. I see no reason to force us to take it, except to drive up the points cost of pathfinders

Sums it up quite nicely for me. If I feel the need to move the Pathfinders quickly, I will use one of my Troop transports (I play Hybrid Tau so FW's are generally stationary for the most part).

Lanfiex
07-01-2006, 01:06
If I feel the need to move the Pathfinders quickly, I will use one of my Troop transports (I play Hybrid Tau so FW's are generally stationary for the most part).

cheat

read the rules on transports again

Lotharion
07-01-2006, 01:43
Pathfinders are scouts a lot like US Army scouts in an armored cavalry regiment are scouts. Every try sneaking in a Bradley?

They are useful (in fluff and on the tabletop) for the counter-recon fight. In tabletop terms, that means being on board in an advantageous position early (for that matter, even moving them after your opponent deploys can sometimes open up shots he didn't expect you to have). It's, imo, even *more* critical w/ the Heavy nature of their markerlights.

real-world scouts get into a position where they can see the enemy, then call down artillery or tank fire on the most dangerous assets in the opposing force.

Pathfinders get into position where they can see the enemy, then paint the targets w/ markerlights to call down artillery (seeker) or tank ('head, broadside, whatever) fire on the most dangerous assets in the opposing force.

See the connection?

The Wraithlord
07-01-2006, 19:08
cheat

read the rules on transports again

Not really. I don't use Pathfinders anyway and was merely typing while I thought in this case instead of using actual playstyle as the example. I have one transport in my list and have always used it with the squad it comes with.


See the connection?

Oh I get the reasoning behind it, I just wish we weren't FORCED to take the Transport for it. I find using a Devilfish with a FW squad far more efficient than a mandatory one for the PF's that I may or may not use in the course of the game.

It is all moot anyway as the new codex apparantly will still be keeping the DF requirement for Pathfinders. I'm just one of those who wish it weren't so, especially as I will most likely pick up a squad now that the ML rules seem to have been substantially improved. Don't think they are really worth it right now, but that is of course imho.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
08-01-2006, 13:45
Well, I feel that Pathfinders kind of need a Devilfish anyways. Look upon like a Big Brother, there to protect them, and offer fire support when they need it. You see, in the new Codex, I can give it a SMS instead of Gun Drones. That means it can lay down 7 infantry killing shots, of which 4 don't need LoS. So when your Pathfinders are lighting up the board, the squad is also managing to contribute.

And it has that new teleport helper thingy. Mmm...tasty!

athamas
08-01-2006, 14:54
yes fire warrios are better at targeting T5 things yes, but equal to sisters at T4, and actually worse at targeting T3 creatures than SOB... and there is a disticnct lack of T5+ creatures in most armies,

Fire warriors are good as a staple choice, but due to the lack of AP in their squad.. [most shooting units can take a plasma weapon or something...] meaning even if you get within rapid fire range you will only kill 2 2/3 marines...

most squads are 6+ men, and can take 3 casualtuies without any loss of potential [hvy, special and vet..] thus you need to fucus alot of fire power to kill these units, and its difficult to kill marines at the best of time...

and thats just to kill 1 unit of marines... tau are a viscious arm as long as they keep their range, and can remove all the assult units of an enemie army quickly...

Lanfiex
08-01-2006, 15:52
with the new markerlight rules the fire warriors teams are horiffic

DireStrike
08-01-2006, 15:54
I'll assume you mean "really good". No they aren't. They gain one kill statistically against marines, even at BS 5.

athamas
08-01-2006, 16:07
fire warriors will ntbecome horific, crisis teams will, with a plasma rifle and fusion blaster [& mt] they will get within 12" and have 9 shots that will be hitting and killing on 2's.. thats a good dead 6 marines a turn before anything else hits them..

and broadsides are going to become devestating...

Mad Doc Grotsnik
08-01-2006, 17:05
Right. If people don't stop comparing apples and oranges, I am going to burn out my eyes, then go on a rampany orgy of drugs and violence. Sooner or later your bound to get caught up in it, and as I can't see it, it won't be a crime!

Tau, as an army, depend entirely upon synergy. When used properly, it becomes greater than the sum of it's parts. So yes, Firewarriors do indeed have their limitations. But there strengths offset the weaknesses of the other units, and vice versa. Used in good unison, there is no stopping them.

And thats the end of the story.

Sephiroth
08-01-2006, 17:13
But there strengths offset the weaknesses of the other units, and vice versa. Used in good unison, there is no stopping them.

Never a more true thing said about the Tau army, in this Codex or the next one.

The Wraithlord
09-01-2006, 02:05
I am a bit curious as to what 'rampany" means though :)

I agree with the general idea that a Tau army is meant to work together as a whole instead of a bunch of separate units on the same side a la Marines of any kind. Sure the Firewarriors may not be the best troop going but the added 12 shots per round to a unit being fired on by a couple squads of Crisis suits is certainly beneficial. Likewise, the added shots from HH's or suits on an enemy squad about to charge said FW's is what is required.

You figure out out to get the whole army working together, you have a solid and hard list.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
09-01-2006, 19:24
Rampany was meant to read Rampant.

But anyways.

Tau need synergy to win. By combining the firepower of various squads, and their respective abilities, *any* unit or creature in the game will be dead in one turn.

Marines however. Well, they are more or less unique. Each and every squad is akin to an army in it's own right. Thought out correctly, they can damage anything and everything in the game, from Troops to Heavy Assault Vehicles.

Imperial Guard. Well, the entire army can be viewed as a single entity. Similar to the Tau, they need to be used in unison. However, the Guard lack the subtle variations available to Tau commanders, and instead rely upon greater degrees of specialisation.

Draconis
18-01-2006, 04:35
Or with the Pathfinders you can find a piece of terrain up near the middle and cover the center in an "X" firing zone. Just rush your DF up there and deploy them. This way they have marker lights and rail rifles just waiting for anything to come around the corner and you have a 12" skimmer with 7 shots to harass with. You don't have to keep it near them if you don't want. This way you could either keep them there for bait for your bigger things/deep strikers or use them to advance your army.