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Deadmanwade
10-05-2009, 14:42
Hi all, I've recently got my hands on some brettonians and I have a question about the Lance formation.
The bret rules state that the lance is formed in ranks 3 models wide. Can I use the lance rules with a unit 4 or 5 wide? Is there any benefit to doing so?

Also, kind of a tactics question but what is the optimum size of a lance formation?

Atrahasis
10-05-2009, 14:54
The lance formation is 3 wide. If you're 1 wide, 2 wide, 4+ wide, you're not in lance formation.

The lance works well in small blacks of 6-9. Any bigger and you'll pack more punch, sure, but you'll be as manoeuvrable as an oil tanker and never actually get to charge anything you want to fight.

Griefbringer
10-05-2009, 15:31
As stated, the lance rules only apply when the formation is exactly three models wide. It is a bit like using the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch:



Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou

garythewargamer
10-05-2009, 21:26
Yes three wide is how it works and the only way. If you use 5 or 6 models in the lance formation 5 of them get to attack. A lance formation of 9 means you get 7 attacks. A lance formation of 12 allows you nine attacks but first it is expensive and really hard to get into combat.

Aceious
11-05-2009, 15:58
I believe there isn't a limit for the lance formation... However I think that 15 is the max # of knights of the Realm or errant knights you can take in one unit. (look at their profiles with the point costs) But adding characters may up that I believe. So there may be no limit of the lance formation but there are limits on the number of knights per unit which in turns helps check the size of the formation. Of course characters can join the 15 knights as well. The other thing to watch for with large lance formations is the massive flank you present to your opponent. ;)

Urgat
11-05-2009, 18:43
The lance formation is 3 wide. If you're 1 wide, 2 wide, 4+ wide, you're not in lance formation.

The lance works well in small blacks of 6-9. Any bigger and you'll pack more punch, sure, but you'll be as manoeuvrable as an oil tanker and never actually get to charge anything you want to fight.


Why? The wheel remains the same no? I don't get why it would be less manoeuvrable because it's bigger (apart from the odd clipping problem maybe, but I can't see it being so dramatic)...

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2009, 18:51
Why? The wheel remains the same no? I don't get why it would be less manoeuvrable because it's bigger (apart from the odd clipping problem maybe, but I can't see it being so dramatic)...

Depends whether you take the "outside model" to mean the guy at the end of the front rank, or the guy who is actually the outside model.

If its the former, a long lance wheel's just as easily as a lance 3 models strong.
If its the latter, a long lance is incapable of wheeling very far at all before running out of movement.

Gaargod
11-05-2009, 19:03
Also, as each knight is 2"long and you only start 12" at max, you can't fit more than 24knights in your deployment zone without starting them horizontal.

Basically don't do it. Knights in units of 6 or 9. Lots of them. Done

Atrahasis
12-05-2009, 08:21
Why? The wheel remains the same no? I don't get why it would be less manoeuvrable because it's bigger (apart from the odd clipping problem maybe, but I can't see it being so dramatic)...

Because I can sit a unit next to that 10" flank and stop you wheeling at all.

The back end swings out a lot when the lance starts getting deep, and that becomes a problem.

Note that I'm not suggesting that the "outside model" is anywhere but the front rank, the problems stem entirely from having a formation deeper than it is wide.

Rupposed
12-05-2009, 08:44
The only time you should end up more than three models wide is after winning a combat to bring more models into base with an enemy you're not in danger of losing to through CR. But even that is situational at best, as I believe you can only ever gain rank bonuses when three models wide. Also 6 or 9 strong is the ideal unit size for knights.


As for sitting a unit in a knight unit's flank... you'd be hard-pressed to do that with an army that marches/charges 16 inches. Especially against a Bretonnian player who knows what they're doing. Not saying it's impossible, but they should be defending against that with little effort.

tarrasque
12-05-2009, 09:18
The only time you should end up more than three models wide is after winning a combat to bring more models into base with an enemy you're not in danger of losing to through CR. But even that is situational at best, as I believe you can only ever gain rank bonuses when three models wide. Also 6 or 9 strong is the ideal unit size for knights.

if you add a char by the 9 and they all survive you can make the ranks 5 and still get a +1 rank bonus.



As for sitting a unit in a knight unit's flank... you'd be hard-pressed to do that with an army that marches/charges 16 inches. Especially against a Bretonnian player who knows what they're doing. Not saying it's impossible, but they should be defending against that with little effort.

i doubt that a bret who puts a knight unit that big on table knows what he is doing. an remember brets aren't the only ones that can get that range of movement. and a flying unit is al it takes to pull this of.

Rupposed
12-05-2009, 10:02
Good point, but still. A four inch advantage doesn't guarantee you can get in their flank without being charged, and new players might just charge headlong without thinking anyways.

It's been a long while since I read the Bretonnian book with any detail, but I vaguely remember the lance formation rule saying their knights could only get ranks if in lance formation. Might be imagining things, though.

tarrasque
12-05-2009, 10:36
yea i play tk so i think a bit different whit movement sometimes ;)

and brets not getting +1 rank for 5 width i don't know i think they just wouldn't get the extra attacks

Griefbringer
12-05-2009, 10:40
The knights don't need to be in the lance formation to get rank bonuses.

However, if you want to get rank bonuses, then the lance formation tends to give better bonuses for given number of models than lining 5+ models wide.