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Raibaru
10-05-2009, 21:05
I haven't been to a Games Day in several years. The last one I went to was the Baltimore Games Day that occurred after the Dwarf Release for fantasy. So anyone know what year that was?

The reason I stopped going was they had declined in quality, increased in price, provided less information, had fewer deals, and with the battlebunker in my own back yard in Glen Burnie the gaming was quite bland. But this wasn't the final straw. For me, it was the simple fact that 2 years in a row they had the exact same presentations prepared for 40k and fantasy. One year was right before the Dwarfs were released, and the next year was several months after. But the seminars had the exact same information as if they were still new and upcoming.

I was planning to go this year after a long break from the game, but decided not to at the last minute. From the reports from friends, and the thread on the rumors forum, it appears they've actually gotten worse!

So I'm curious how others feel of the Games Day events around the world? I've only ever been to the Baltimore Games Day. But are the other US Games Days just as bad and in a state of decline for the past decade? Canada? Europe?

I often wonder if Games Workshop is even aware of the dissatisfaction players have with the event? Now I personally don't want to see them go away as they really are a great opportunity for multiple clubs to meet, play games together (though I hear you couldn't even do this, this year), and so on. But Games Workshop really needs to do something to improve the state of these events.

Even when I still went to them, the amount of information and level of planning and detail that went into the events overseas, and the quality of coverage was far and away better then what was available in the US. I don't understand why they'd invest the time and energy into these things and not have the same standards for the ones in the US as they would in Europe?

So what are your opinion on Games Day?
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Templar Ben
10-05-2009, 21:13
I would never go to a trade show that only had one company represented so I have never been to a Games Day. I find conventions are always more interesting and give a wider range of products and activities.

IAMNOTHERE
10-05-2009, 21:20
I've attended several games days (UK) and I must admit that as I've got older (30+) I've become less tolerant of the younger demographic that seem to show up at GDUK.

I work with young adults so this surprised me, the problem seems to be that the event seems to be pushed (by GW staff) at absentee parents.

Its led to me avoiding the event like the swine flu epedemic it is because i don't want to deal with scores of kids swarming around everything.

A few other issues also crop up (people buying whole stocks of GD exclusives for ebay), organisational, access, layouut.

Anyway, I recognise it's my problem but GWs fault. If they want my money they need to raise their game.

Captain Shrike
10-05-2009, 21:26
Well, GW puts pretty much the majority of it's effort into the UK one, as it is the main one. I'm not complaining though.

Crube
10-05-2009, 21:29
I agree woith IAMNOTHERE to a degree. I used to work at GDs back in the mists of time (94 - 98) and can count 1989 as my first - back when they used to be held in the Assembly Rooms in Derby ;) - yes i am getting old... :cries:

Anyway, I don't know if that has coloured my opinion of Gds but I havent been to one since. I thought the idea of seminars was a good one, and one designed to appeal to more veteran gamers, but it seems to now be very much too little.

Having said that, I don't go, as it feels as though nowadays there's nothign for me. It's not designed for me. There is no reason for me to go. GW will get my gaming money each month (curse them :D). THey don't need to drag me along to a hall full of screaming kids and try and get me frothing at the mouth to buy snhiny new stuff. I'm good enough at that myself...

DarthFreder
10-05-2009, 21:34
So, I ve been to the Games Day Germany in 2001-2003. I didn“t like it because it was very loud, long cues, smelly people and something absolutly for kids. I was glad to get free entrance and the shirt and miniature as a wholesales person (and won 3 Demons...) but I am not seeing forward to show there up for free or even for money again.
The event started at 10.00 and at 15.00 was price-giving ceremony, at 16.00 the whole building was swept and wiped...
There was almost no time for buying, watching the miniatures and playing games. If you think about driving 2x600 km on one day just to cue at FW.... no way.
Although I have to admit that the quality of winners has reached very high levels compared with the stuff 20 years ago...

Raibaru
10-05-2009, 21:35
I always looked at Games Day as a sales pitch. It's there to show you that they support their players, that they have big things in store, and that they're better then the competition.

I think it hasn't fit that bill in a long time.

I also don't agree with shrike at all. I know you weren't trying to be argumentative and such, but I would hope GW doesn't buy into that theory. Their audience is global. If anything, events like Games Day Baltimore tarnish their reputation and should be done away with which would give them the resources to make GDUK an even that may attract a global audience to it.


So, I ve been to the Games Day Germany in 2001-2003. I didn“t like it because it was very loud, long cues, smelly people and something absolutly for kids. I was glad to get free entrance and the shirt and miniature as a wholesales person (and won 3 Demons...) but I am not seeing forward to show there up for free or even for money again.
The event started at 10.00 and at 15.00 was price-giving ceremony, at 16.00 the whole building was swept and wiped...
There was almost no time for buying, watching the miniatures and playing games. If you think about driving 2x600 km on one day just to cue at FW.... no way.
Although I have to admit that the quality of winners has reached very high levels compared with the stuff 20 years ago...

I remember back in the day the Baltimore Games Day was multiple days. And that was a blast. It was the first one I had gone to (which probably altered my perception to begin with), but it was basically day 1 had all the gaming you could possibly want and all the fantasy genre seminars. Second was all the 40k seminars and the same level of gaming. I think they were even open Friday afternoon to the public for gaming. Friday had the sales seminar which was private, but players could still game. And what's funny is this weekend filled blast was something like $20 and it came with a shirt and miniature!

Lost_Heretic
10-05-2009, 21:42
Games Day Baltimore was great last year.

However, I did not attend the one this year since I knew something was up - there was very little advertisement and a seeming lack of support. I guess I made a good choice to not show up.

Xarius
10-05-2009, 21:59
I would never go to a trade show that only had one company represented so I have never been to a Games Day. I find conventions are always more interesting and give a wider range of products and activities.

gw admitting other games exist, never! especially if they had to be in the same room, shudder

Reinholt
10-05-2009, 22:20
I think that when you discuss Games Day, you need to differentiate pretty strongly between the UK Games Day and all the other Games Day events.

They are not the same.

Chaos and Evil
10-05-2009, 22:29
I've attended several games days (UK) and I must admit that as I've got older (30+) I've become less tolerant of the younger demographic that seem to show up at GDUK....

That 'younger demographic' is the main target demographic for GW's core games, and they buy most of GW's products.

Games Day isn't really aimed at the adult demographic, at least not primarily so.

Raibaru
10-05-2009, 22:31
Why shouldn't they be the same? That's the second time that sentiment was brought up here, and I don't know the reason for it. Just because GW is a UK based company doesn't mean the gaming events that they sponsor a create should some how be substandard in the US.

When the US makes movies do they strip away all color and remove all special effects before letting non-americans watch them? Although... this could explain why Tyranid and Necron look the way they do! (kidding etc).

Mannimarco
10-05-2009, 22:32
Games Day uk last year, its overcrowded, theres hordes of rampaging kids (and some teens) marauding around the hall, theres no real queueing system for the sales stands, its every man for themselves, i personally spent over an hour trying to get into a forgeworld sale stand despite being about 3 feet away from the front

oh and for the love of god why dont people shower anymore lol?

Raibaru
10-05-2009, 22:35
I will say the smell is a universal problem at all these events regardless if it's for GW or Comicon. It's like people forget to put on deodorant that morning or something.

A little funk I can deal with. But holy cow does it get out of control quick.

Reinholt
10-05-2009, 22:53
Why shouldn't they be the same? That's the second time that sentiment was brought up here, and I don't know the reason for it. Just because GW is a UK based company doesn't mean the gaming events that they sponsor a create should some how be substandard in the US.

When the US makes movies do they strip away all color and remove all special effects before letting non-americans watch them? Although... this could explain why Tyranid and Necron look the way they do! (kidding etc).

Rai,

I am not saying they should be different.

I am saying they are different, like it or not.

That is part of the problem. Why have it in the US if it will suck?

RevEv
10-05-2009, 23:07
I would agree with the sentiment that Games Days should be no different wherever they are held, but I am also realistic in realising that GD UK will always be the premier event as it is held close to GW HQ. How many of us here would countenance even more price rises just so more designers/sculptors/ GW bigwigs could attend all the overseas events.

As to the unwashed masses... I don't mind them, just the prats who insist on carrying their rucsac in crowds and thus bash people in the face and the amateur photographers who insist on crowding the pre-release stands just to get a blurred snap for warseer (you know who you are).

For me the final straw at GD was almost being pushed over the FW preorder stand - which was stupid as there were no models to buy there. Now if they push me I push back... hard (that's rugby club training for you).

Temprus
11-05-2009, 02:06
I will say the smell is a universal problem at all these events regardless if it's for GW or Comicon. It's like people forget to put on deodorant that morning or something.

A little funk I can deal with. But holy cow does it get out of control quick.Looks like I will need to finish my DKoK costume before I visit a GD then. :angel: Note: No costumes have (hopefully) been ruined nor harmed in the fashoning of this jest (again, I hope).

Fenlear
11-05-2009, 02:42
The costume competition is the main reason I stopped going. Waiting to see the daemon winners only to put up with retards taking nerdiness to the maximum level was more then I could put up with. For every person that appreciated the costume competition there were a great many shaking their heads. I don’t see how appeasing the super dorks helps them as a company. I guess I can only speak for LA games days though, for all I know the costume competition may have been more appreciated elsewhere.

Mannimarco
11-05-2009, 02:47
ive said it before and ill say it again, passion about your hobby is a good thing, its what keeps us going..........to much passion on the other hand is a little creepy

"yeah i own over 4k points of death guard, built and ready to play and 3k nurgle daemons built, and im working on collecting the entire death guard 1st company" thats passion, its a good thing

"yeah own a custom made suit of power armour with death guard icongraphy, gonna wear it to gamesday, and i called my cats after the chaos gods" ok........just avoid eye contact and back away towards the door

Jedi152
11-05-2009, 08:34
The costume competition is ridiculous. You only get the usual 'geek girl as witch elf', 'man in generic army gear with aquilla's taped onto it' and 'geek as scary commissar because he already owns the trenchcoat' types. Why bother?

And yes, the level of geekery is just too high for me.

genestealer_baldric
11-05-2009, 09:32
ive been once to uk one and been complety put off. like others have said its the rush for new things people buying 20 of an item then going home and selling them straight away but other people there dont get a chance because they were all brought by these people, there should be a limit on how many people can buy. i actualy saw a fight break out at the stand over the last few copies of the marine dex, after a long expensive crushed, noisey day later ive had my fill iam not going back even for the special relases.

Osbad
11-05-2009, 09:37
Couldn't tell you whether they have got worse or better over the years. I can say that I went to one, in 2003. Never been back.

At the time I was aged 35, so I can't say I was exactly the target demographic! On the other hand, remembering back when I was the age of what I assume is GW's target demographic - 11 to 14 year old boys - I don't believe I would have enjoyed it then either! Mind you, the idea of gaming with strangers brings me out in hives, so I'm probably not normal! :D

Jedi152
11-05-2009, 10:21
like others have said its the rush for new things people buying 20 of an item then going home and selling them straight away but other people there dont get a chance because they were all brought by these people, there should be a limit on how many people can buy. i actualy saw a fight break out at the stand over the last few copies of the marine dex, after a long expensive crushed, noisey day later ive had my fill iam not going back even for the special relases.
If i'd have seen it i'd probably have punched the guy! :p

But seriously, as i've mentioned before, it's disgusting that it's allowed to happen. If i'd seen it i'd have taken the staff member's name that sold it to him and reported him to head in a very stern letter.

A perfect example of GW staff going for quick profit over the enjoyment of the hobby.

Netherghoul
11-05-2009, 10:36
been to gamesdays several times.
It was great fun (apart from all those annoying little kids:s...).

I am going to visit Salute 2010, that's where my money will be;)


http://www.salute.co.uk/mainframe.htm

Fenrir
11-05-2009, 10:41
[QUOTE=Raibaru;3560094]When the US makes movies do they strip away all color and remove all special effects before letting non-americans watch them? [QUOTE]

I suspect they strip away most of the originality and plot, judging by recent efforts.

All conventions/GD's tend to get a bit samey after a while. Salute this year was ok, but I don't think I'll bother again as it was the same as previous years. Perhaps had a little less than there was 2-3 years ago.

I stopped going to games day back in 2001, as it was the same old, same old. The rocketing ticket prices (how much are they now?) for the same stuff was the final nail in the coffin for me. I'd been going for a fair few years before that.

Glabro
11-05-2009, 10:57
I have to wonder why a six-hour gaming event for a huge cost is such a big deal. Six hours sounds just laughable for the length of a role-playing / wargaming convention, but I suppose it's what GW deems expedient and sufficient for delivering the yearly dose of marketing and inspiration to the people who take part

RevEv
12-05-2009, 08:54
I suspect they strip away most of the originality and plot, judging by recent efforts.

All conventions/GD's tend to get a bit samey after a while. Salute this year was ok, but I don't think I'll bother again as it was the same as previous years. Perhaps had a little less than there was 2-3 years ago.

I stopped going to games day back in 2001, as it was the same old, same old. The rocketing ticket prices (how much are they now?) for the same stuff was the final nail in the coffin for me. I'd been going for a fair few years before that.

Agreed, but as GD UK is now at the NEC, not the NIA, I will be very interested to see how the space makes a difference.

Interestingly I came across the tickets from my very first GD in 2001 last night. Comparatively the price rise is not that great. The ticket cost £18, with the special model a further £5 on the day (it was the Kroot Shaper).

If I recall correctly the GD was the same crush we all know and loath, so I was sent out to get the special models while my wife, who was accompanying me, looked after our six month old son in the parents room. This was a small, windowless store room with chairs, the Sunday papers, coffee making facilities, and a few BL books. It was not very pleasant, but at least it was a respite from the crowds. The staff who looked after it were extremely pleasant and helpful, especially when we asked for somewhere to change the baby. Fortunately by 2004, when I went last, the parents had been moved to a bar area (sadly closed) above the arena.

Darnok
12-05-2009, 09:24
I've been to GD Germany once, in 2007. It wasn't bad, but with the price of the ticket and nothing that special on show I've not been last year, and have a hard time deciding wether I'll go this time.

There are a few things you only get to see on a GD, most notably the Demon entries - and I say you what: seeing them in the flesh is something completely different to pictures on the internet. The same holds for the gaming tables and the models GW and FW want to show, but the latter usually aren't that exciting (as you've seen them weeks ahead of time).
If I wouldn't be near the location on the same weekend anyway - meeting with (WarSeer-) friends - I wouldn't even bother to think about it, but this way it is no simple choice to do. Right now I tend to not go and instead spend my time with people I don't see the rest of the year and having a good time.

xowainx
12-05-2009, 09:26
Most of the ticket price goes towards the venue hire, not GW's pockets. Venues like that are much more expensive now due to a variety of factors, but if you look at prices for concerts and other events there from the same time ago, there will be a simillar price rise. GW make their money at Games Day off sales, which easily go into the millions before you even factor in the Forgeworld stand which also takes a ridiculous amount of money at the event.

Edit - Specifically about UK Games Day.

Grimtuff
12-05-2009, 10:06
Well, i've been going to the UK one for 11 years (Started in 1997) and last year was the final straw.

Worst ever. It looked like it was put together by someone who had a vague idea of the layout and was armed with a small health and safety plan. To put it simply there were masses and masses of unused space.

We did not get in until about 10:40 and we were quite near the front of the queue, the queuing system was just... :wtf: (anyone who went last year will know what I mean). This was not helped by the fact of some numptys with a Thewaaagh.com banner pushing their way to the front of the queue. Yet non of the stewards or anyone mentioned anything to them. :rolleyes:

Couple this with the fact that the SM codex was sold out by the time we got in. :rolleyes: So let me get this straight. This is your premier army, the poster boys, yet you do not have enough codexes to sell to people? Or is it because you sold multiple copies to the same person so he can line his pockets on eBay? ****.

Rumours are the SW codex is out at GD this year. I'm debating whether to go as I would be going specifically for this. But I fear a repeat of last year will be on the cards. How difficult is it to go "1 per customer per transaction." i.e. you can buuy multiple copies but you have to go to the back of the queue each time.

Golden Demon. Do not get me stated on this. One day, they will get it right with how to do the cabinets. I'm tired of getting crushed between sweaty nerd flesh, amateur photographers and metal bars. :mad: You cannot see anything until the end of the day when everyone has grown tired of the sweat etc. and not much (if anything) is left on show. That, and Team Spain. Oh God Team Spain. Golden Demon is too political anyway if you ask me. The same people win year after year. In recent years it has been the infamous Team Spain, who come over here to UK Games Day and take a good clutch of the awards.

Now I see the problem here as twofold. The politiking in GD and the fact anyone can enter. I believe there *should* be an entry on store level, just like in the past. Golden Demon was invite only and you had to prove yourself by winning regional heats held every month up until Games Day. This takes a lot of chod and foreigners out of the picture (if they want to enter they have to win the comp at a UK store, shouldn't be too hard) Yes, I may be sounding hars, but UK Games Day is *the* Premier one. I want to see home grown talent. Which are not currently getting.

This bring me onto the second point. Create a Champions League. If you won a GD last year you are eligiable to enter this, and only this. This gets rid of the political element (Not that the entries are not good, it is just a noticable fact the same people win year after year) and allows new talent to come though.

If Games Day does not improve I will never be going again, as frankly it is a mess ATM and it shames me that GW's premier event in the country of it's creation is regarded recently as one of the worst.

Jedi152
12-05-2009, 10:16
I'll second that entry to Golden Demon should be restricted in some way. The same people basically travel round the world and win them all. The last English name to win the Slayer Sword was Matt Parkes, back in 2002.

Hrafn
12-05-2009, 10:25
but UK Games Day is *the* Premier one. I want to see home grown talent. Which are not currently getting.

You want the event to be "the premier one", but you don't want the best of the best in the GD? :rolleyes:

So, basically what you are saying is: "GW should put most weight into GD UK because we started out as a British corporation. The rest of the customers doesn't matter because only the British ones warrant the best. Oh yes, and we only want painters with a British passport to enter our premier painting competition. You see, "premier" and "best of the best" in regards to the internationally marketed Golden Demon competetion of course mean "the best of the best of persons with a British passport".

Sorry, but you are not making sense. Either GD UK is the premier one, which means that it caters for all the customers of GW and the modelling/painting found there really is the best in the world OR you make GD UK a regional event on par with the rest of the National ones. Consider what kind of message the alternative you suggest would send to international customers and hobbyists? ("Screw you - you are not British" would be my guess)!

Templar Ben
12-05-2009, 13:41
I have to wonder why a six-hour gaming event for a huge cost is such a big deal. Six hours sounds just laughable for the length of a role-playing / wargaming convention, but I suppose it's what GW deems expedient and sufficient for delivering the yearly dose of marketing and inspiration to the people who take part

I am guessing it is a "cost saving" measure. You would think they could get multiple days but I am sure they have a reason for having a few hours.


You want the event to be "the premier one", but you don't want the best of the best in the GD? :rolleyes:

So, basically what you are saying is: "GW should put most weight into GD UK because we started out as a British corporation. The rest of the customers doesn't matter because only the British ones warrant the best. Oh yes, and we only want painters with a British passport to enter our premier painting competition. You see, "premier" and "best of the best" in regards to the internationally marketed Golden Demon competetion of course mean "the best of the best of persons with a British passport".

Sorry, but you are not making sense. Either GD UK is the premier one, which means that it caters for all the customers of GW and the modelling/painting found there really is the best in the world OR you make GD UK a regional event on par with the rest of the National ones. Consider what kind of message the alternative you suggest would send to international customers and hobbyists? ("Screw you - you are not British" would be my guess)!

In the US, Major League Baseball has a "World Series" with one team from Canada and all others from the US.

a squig
12-05-2009, 13:43
last year quing technique was rubbish we got near the door entrance in one que then we were told our how que had to use another entrance so from 15m from door to around 200 meters behind another que WTF???? poorley organised,expensive and throughly pointless

Rick_1138
12-05-2009, 14:09
I get in to GD early with my store manager (also a good friend), i am 27 btw, but have a stomach condition so have to be near a bvathroom, so can't que outside.

This came to a head a few years ago, the last UK GD at the NIA, we were on the bus from Aberdeen so we usually arrive first at the venue, at about 6:30 am.

As a result we have to que outside the doors untill 10:am opening, i went with the GD entry guys as they get in earlier so i could at least be in the arena, near a bathrrom.

unfortunately i felt the need to 'go' so banged on the door, a head popped out after 5 mins asking 'what?' i explained the situation and was told to wait 5 mins and i could get in.

15 mins passed, i banged again, someone else came out and said 5 mins.....needless to say i didn't get to use the bahroom for a further 35 mins (i was able to calm myself down and felt the need to go, ebb away.

once i got in the bathrrom was about 2 metres from the entrance, i would have seen nothing early, and even if i had, all i would have seen were empty GD entry cabinets!!

Anyway i now get in with staff (i help set up tables and such as a thank you), this alwos me to get to the FW stands early and sales stands, where i can buy things befroe anyine gets in.

What it also lets me do is watch the crowds once they get in for the new stuff, and i only ever buy what i need, i got 2 SM dex's as my friend wanted one and he couldn't come.

I saw one kid buy 8...count them...SM codexes and various other examples of Bulk buying. and after about an hour most of the new stuff was gone, and a lot of dssapointed people.

i do agree a limit should be introduced, i.e. 2 per customer or maybe 3.

and don't get me started on FW que, its a joke, its why i always pre order and casually pick up my stuff through the day.

Oh and someone mentioned the use of spae in the NEC, your right, its a huge watse of space, especially the DOW area, it was a tank and a curtained off room showing the trailer!!! and about 50m3 of floor.

Reinholt
12-05-2009, 14:14
In the US, Major League Baseball has a "World Series" with one team from Canada and all others from the US.

Are you suggesting the solution to GW's problems is steroids?

Templar Ben
12-05-2009, 14:32
Just saying that wanting premier and home grown is not unique.

Besides, I think the Catachans are already on steroids.

Jedi152
12-05-2009, 14:33
I saw one kid buy 8...count them...SM codexes and various other examples of Bulk buying. and after about an hour most of the new stuff was gone, and a lot of dssapointed people.

i do agree a limit should be introduced, i.e. 2 per customer or maybe 3.
It should be a strict 1 per customer limit. In terms of Warhammer Armies books and Codeces there are no reasons to own more than one unless you're planning to flog them.

zedeyejoe
12-05-2009, 14:43
I love Games Days, so many potential customers all in one place. For the next week its sit back and compare that weeks sales with the previous sales.

Templar Ben
12-05-2009, 15:39
Does GW have vendor tables on site or just GW tables?

Ravenous
12-05-2009, 15:43
Does GW have vendor tables on site or just GW tables?

Its GW only stuff. The only outside people that are allowed in are the club tables and they are not allowed to sell anything.

Otherwise I would be at Gamesday in a second networking my airbrushing, as Im pretty sure a few people wouldnt mind doing up their Cases, cars, helmets or whatever with warhammer art.

Jedi152
12-05-2009, 15:46
Last time i went, they were GW tables and areas set aside for products within GW's IP, like a computer game area (when i last went it was Shadow of the Horned Rat or something).

@Zedeyejoe: Didn't realise you were from VVV. I've considered ordering stuff a few times. Consider yourself added to my list of 'people to know'.

Templar Ben
12-05-2009, 15:57
Its GW only stuff. The only outside people that are allowed in are the club tables and they are not allowed to sell anything.

Otherwise I would be at Gamesday in a second networking my airbrushing, as Im pretty sure a few people wouldnt mind doing up their Cases, cars, helmets or whatever with warhammer art.

Why are people paying to go again? I understand GW product only but since there is only the one place to purchase you are asking for problems with supply and lines.

Allow vendors to sell YOUR PRODUCT and many would rent tables for the opportunity. That would allow for venues that are 2-3 day as you have other income streams.

GW management needs to be monkey stomped.


Last time i went, they were GW tables and areas set aside for products within GW's IP, like a computer game area (when i last went it was Shadow of the Horned Rat or something).

@Zedeyejoe: Didn't realise you were from VVV. I've considered ordering stuff a few times. Consider yourself added to my list of 'people to know'.

So in the UK they have vendors or no?

Osbad
12-05-2009, 16:57
So in the UK they have vendors or no?

No. It is a "GW only" event for retail.

Last year though I understand that they did have some tables demo-ing various "Warhammer Historical" games. Of necessity these used non-citadel models on them (notably some of the Warlord Games plastics produced by John Stallard and Fat Bloke), but none were available for sale at the show.

I know this because I saw a write up of the day in Wargames Illustrated.

In the UK, the largest equivalent to a non-GW convention is Salute. GW have a tiny presence there (or have had in the past), but even this is only 1 day and has around 5000 or so attenders. There are lots of UK independent shows, most of which only have a few hundred visitors. But are all the more fun for that in my view! Big isn't always best! :)

freddythebig
12-05-2009, 19:24
For the past couple of years I have been to the following shows and really enjoyed both for their more relaxed atmosphere and variety of stuff to see and buy.

http://www.alumwellwargames.co.uk/

http://www.ukgamesexpo.co.uk/

Having read reviews of the past couple of Gamesdays I know for a fact I will not be going despite living 5 minutes down the road from the NEC.

Templar Ben
13-05-2009, 03:19
Here is an idea of a different way to do a Games Day.

Currently it is a one day event (6 hour event actually) where Games Workshop is the only vendors. They charge ticket price and rent some space to clubs and that (should) cover the cost of renting the venue for the day. GW then sells tons of material figuratively and perhaps literally at full MSRP.

If that is not accurate then please correct it. I know we have some GW people and former GW people that may know a lot of details and perhaps can fill in the gaps.

So what if GW did it this way instead? Keep in mind that perhaps this is more of a US/Europe model since there are fewer independents in the UK.

GW gets a site for 3 days. To pay for the venue they rent tables and have the tickets. You can purchase single day or all event tickets with a laminated upgrade to get into some special presentations or to meet with the designers. GW will have a FW table and a GW table to handle the advance stuff that won’t be out for a month to get the easy sales.

The vendors that rent the table will sign an agreement to only sell GW items or items that GW specifically approved. For the vendors selling GW items they can sell at any price. GW misses out on a 6 hour day of 100% MSRP and instead gets 3 full days of 60% MSRP. I would allow vendors to make up T Shirts with GW logos for limited runs of X shirts with a royalty fee paid by the unit. GW gets approval for all shirts using GW branded items so no shirts that reflect poorly on GW or hurts the brand. They could also allow people to manufacture key rings, hats, patches, special 2009 Games Day Frisbees, or whatever. They get their royalty and it is not stuff that GW wants to make now that Black Industries has gone away.

I won’t pretend that I can make up a three day schedule but I see there being tournaments for all core games as well as Blood Bowl, Epic, Warmaster, and Gothic. The entries for the painting competitions would be available for much longer. Seminars are ongoing on various topics and lots of wacky stuff like new games invented just for the day and old ones from WD of yore.

Sounds wacky but it would turn Games Day into more of a convention.

Chaos and Evil
13-05-2009, 03:28
For the vendors selling GW items they can sell at any price.

I'm not sure that GW PLC is all that keen on introducing the core demographic to the idea of cut-price miniatures...

Templar Ben
13-05-2009, 03:31
That could be in the contract then. Everyone sells at MSRP doesn't really matter since GW is getting 60%. I just know a large number of Indies prefer to not sell at MSRP. The fact that it is a captive market and no one can undercut you may have everyone agree.

venus_redscar
13-05-2009, 05:23
That could be in the contract then. Everyone sells at MSRP doesn't really matter since GW is getting 60%. I just know a large number of Indies prefer to not sell at MSRP. The fact that it is a captive market and no one can undercut you may have everyone agree.

If they are all selling the same stuff, what is the point?

I could see fan made art, pro painted minis, or conversions for sale, but no sensible businessman would go to a show like that and pay for the space.

Lord of Worms
13-05-2009, 06:23
In the UK, the largest equivalent to a non-GW convention is Salute. GW have a tiny presence there (or have had in the past), but even this is only 1 day and has around 5000 or so attenders. There are lots of UK independent shows, most of which only have a few hundred visitors. But are all the more fun for that in my view! Big isn't always best! :)

Does anybody know of anything like this that's within reasonable travelling distance from Southern Ontario?

Jedi152
13-05-2009, 07:58
That UK Games Expo sounds good, £12 for a three day ticket and they have 74 exhibitors including PP, Mongoose, Ralph Horsley, Chessex and heaps more.

But i guess this comes back to the old GW hobby vs. Wargaming Hobby thing again. If people are only interested in GW they won't see the value there, but are more likely to accept a £30 ticket for a few hours at a GW event.

genestealer_baldric
13-05-2009, 08:42
I think a limit of 2 codexs will be ok 1 for you and 1 for mate but not the 20 odd ive seen. As to the punch up i couldnt care less while the two guys were having a fight a little kid picked up the book from the side and brought it :D, so even if one guy did win the fight the kid had walked away with the codex.

also i dont want that silly choas champ so cant i buy a ticket without its cost involved but no that add on another about £8 for no reason.

it has so much more poteintal rather than being one huge shop, i spend most of my time playing random games after 1.5hr of the crush around EVERYTHING and the game was fairly fun but at the end of the day i had played around £50 for a few games i could of done back at the store

Templar Ben
13-05-2009, 11:47
If they are all selling the same stuff, what is the point?

The same point in going to any convention. The large crowds of people that have money and will buy it because it is there.

IJW
13-05-2009, 11:56
They charge ticket price and rent some space to clubs and that (should) cover the cost of renting the venue for the day.
[...]
If that is not accurate then please correct it.
No, it's not accurate. GW offer tables to GCN clubs for free, along with free tickets for any GCN members who want to help move stuff around (and get in an hour early to see the Golden Demon entries without the crowds). I believe that GCN club members that are running demo/participation games also get free tickets, but I'm not totally sure.

There's definitely no income from renting out tables to clubs - seeing all the club tables is one of the reasons to go to the event.

Lord_Dante
13-05-2009, 12:03
I used to go but when I found independant shows that had a range of stores I stopped bothering. I used to love Games Day when it had a good focus on modelling for example loads of the huge displays. I'll never forget the huge Vampire/Undead one they did or the Horus Heresy display. It feels too focused on the gaming side to me now. I know gaming is a big part but me and my Dad were painters/convertors first.

Templar Ben
13-05-2009, 12:26
No, it's not accurate. GW offer tables to GCN clubs for free, along with free tickets for any GCN members who want to help move stuff around (and get in an hour early to see the Golden Demon entries without the crowds). I believe that GCN club members that are running demo/participation games also get free tickets, but I'm not totally sure.

There's definitely no income from renting out tables to clubs - seeing all the club tables is one of the reasons to go to the event.

Do they actually turn a profit on the venue or is it all done by the product sales?

If not then did they even consider that they are simply moving sales from GW stores to the GD event and not truly making a profit?

IJW
13-05-2009, 12:33
I've no idea if they even turn a profit, let alone what proportion comes from tickets v. product sales.

Lord of Worms
13-05-2009, 12:45
It itself does not need to turn a profit. If it gets people hankering and makes them buy stuff later it served it's purpose.

Templar Ben
13-05-2009, 12:47
Not if it was stuff that they were going to buy anyway.

Brushmonkey
13-05-2009, 13:26
That UK Games Expo sounds good, £12 for a three day ticket and they have 74 exhibitors including PP, Mongoose, Ralph Horsley, Chessex and heaps more.

But i guess this comes back to the old GW hobby vs. Wargaming Hobby thing again. If people are only interested in GW they won't see the value there, but are more likely to accept a £30 ticket for a few hours at a GW event.

I've been for the last two years and its a very pleasant atmosphere, plus there is a lot of variety on the stalls.

I'll be there again this year defending my unblemished 40K record!:)

Roguebaron
13-05-2009, 22:11
To me, the decline in games day started with a change to the Golden Demon rules strangely enough, the one that lets sword winners win the sword again. In some instances I find this has flavoured the judging towards a certain style of painting. I'd love to see last years winner come back to judge the next year, and lend a bit more validity to the judging process in some cases. Don't get me wrong, I love entering the demons, But I really loved seeing who was next and coming up over who can promote their website for painting more.

I also miss some of the fun, spontaious events. In Canada, some of the events fill up so early and you end up with lots of kids milling about because they didn't buy the deluxe ticket that let them in an hour early to sign up. Now this did improve the last time I went, but It is one of the reasons I skipped last years.

I too would also like to see a wider variety of vendors, even some comic and hobby shops. If an idependant store can run a table and promote the game, they should be aloud to offer a selection of stock as well.

Crazy Harborc
14-05-2009, 01:13
Good luck with getting GW to allow competition giving companies to market their wares at a GW event. The GW company don't want their users to even "think" about other minies or rules.

That said, GW is within it's rights to not allow outside companies to pedal their wares at GW events. The indies that set up tables DO have to follow GW's rules of conduct.;)

Templar Ben
14-05-2009, 01:21
I fully understand GW not allowing a company to sell Hordes next to Fantasy Battles but I think it is short sighted to have GW giving the only store when they could rent space to others. 60% of a lot is better than 100% of a little. I am confident they could sell more in 40 hours than in 6. They would only have to move an extra 67% over those days to break even and with all those stores fighting for customers by throwing goodies in the bad I am sure most would leave penniless. That is my experience with GenCon, DragonCon, ComicCon, et. al.

Crazy Harborc
14-05-2009, 02:14
Gencon, Arcon, etc, etc....the good old days. GW was firing up and gaining players, gaining indie stores stocking GW goodies.

The conventions did invite GW to come on in....and rent a table...or two tables.;) GW started trying to have greater influence at those cons. GW then decided to have their own cons....GDs GTs etc, etc instead. Why share the glory. Now GW pretends it is the only act on the play bill that is the hobby of wargaming.:confused:

Mannimarco
14-05-2009, 02:22
because now GW has us it doesnt want to share us, its that simple

Templar Ben
14-05-2009, 02:40
But they wouldn't be sharing us since it would still be GW material or GW approved material.

GraveGuard
14-05-2009, 02:50
The thing is Games Day doesn't bring in anyone new, not familiar with/already playing/buying GW products. Games Day as a Marketing tool doesn't work like it used to. They did once upon a time have stalls/booths at other Conventions but seem to have given up with that which is a shame as you would have been directly targetting people already interested in the genre(s)/market.

Games Day has gotten too restrictive but without any of the support/order that you would expect when you have such timed events. They were more freeflow in the past so somethings went wrong but they were more fun.

Games Day has become too standardised. In each area and each year, they follow the same pattern each time.

There isn't actually a lot to do as a Games Day:
You can que up in badly orgranised ques for ages to buy stuff you could either by a few weeks later (and sometimes cheaper/mostly cheaper/always cheaper depending on what it is).
You can look at other peoples figures
You can try and participate in a Game
You can buy overpriced Food and drink
But most of all and what most people seem to do is just wonder round aimlessly.
And all for a price that steadily increases each year.

Templar Ben
14-05-2009, 03:31
The thing is Games Day doesn't bring in anyone new, not familiar with/already playing/buying GW products. Games Day as a Marketing tool doesn't work like it used to. They did once upon a time have stalls/booths at other Conventions but seem to have given up with that which is a shame as you would have been directly targetting people already interested in the genre(s)/market.

Games Day has gotten too restrictive but without any of the support/order that you would expect when you have such timed events. They were more freeflow in the past so somethings went wrong but they were more fun.

Games Day has become too standardised. In each area and each year, they follow the same pattern each time.

There isn't actually a lot to do as a Games Day:
You can que up in badly orgranised ques for ages to buy stuff you could either by a few weeks later (and sometimes cheaper/mostly cheaper/always cheaper depending on what it is).
You can look at other peoples figures
You can try and participate in a Game
You can buy overpriced Food and drink
But most of all and what most people seem to do is just wonder round aimlessly.
And all for a price that steadily increases each year.

So why are people going?

Does anyone know if it is growing or shrinking over time?

Osbad
14-05-2009, 12:50
So why are people going?

My theory is its all that "the GW Hobby as a cult" thing

GW don't market to people in the "general wargaming pool". They don't market to people who are a bit interested in their product. They market to people who believe in "the GW hobby". People who love GW games, aren't interested in anything else and are prepared to mortgage their mother to buy the latest release.

They are convinced there is a core of these kind of people in every town, and they really couldn't give a fig about anyone else,

I'mnot making that up, it's been said in black and white in Kirby's forward to the GW accounts many years on the trot. Of course I've been blunter in my language, but it is there nonetheless.

Games Day's role in all this is to ramp up the hype. Most of the kids there are totally amazed by the experience and it serves to get them really enthusiastic about spending money at GW. It provides focus for their year and an opportunity to be inspired.

In that context Games Day as is makes perfect sense.

GW aren't interested in "competing" for the attention anyone who considers non-GW models for anything is already lost to them and merely serves as an object of ridicule. (I'd better state that I am making a sweeping generalisation about those at GW who drink the corporate cool-aid. I am well aware there are many fine blue-shirts about who in reality aren't such clones, and have wide and varied opinions about other comapnies and hobbies! It is the corporate "yes-men" I am talking about here.) All GW want is to reach as many who are capable of becoming complete GW fanbois, milking every penny out of them as possible and then spitting them back as embittered husks.

Of course I realise that there are in fact many non-fanboix GW customers out there. I'm one (or at least was untile recently, now I'm just an embittered husk!). It is just GW has no interest in our opinions or desires. And that, in my opinion, is their loss.

Games Day is promoted as the nirvana of the GW-fanbois. A place where you can wallow in the source of all goodness that is the great GW. A sort of cathedral of worship to "the GW hobby". Understand the myth of "the GW hobby" and you understand Games Day.

It seems to mein all this that GW have taken a sound business principle for niche marketing that was first identified in the music industry a couple of decades ago (targetting those guys that *really* dig your stuff and providing everything they want, and not worrying about those that only partly dig your stuff) and pumped it to the Nth degree. It works for small indie bands who produce music of a certain type and encourage a fanbase and revel in it, feeding off their fans and feeding back to them. I'm not sure it works for a multinational hobby gaming enterprise though - where I am personally convinced a much larger proportion of their income comes from those who are not "fanbois" than they might care to admit. The same policies (e.g. pricing) that will serve to maximise their income from the fanbois, will at the same time reduce income from the non-fanbois. If the fanbois spending outmatches the non-fanbois spending they are quids in. If it does not, they are sunk.

Sorry. Didn't want to derail this discussion back to pricing, but I just wanted to point out how it fits into the overall picture of GW's business model.

reds8n
14-05-2009, 13:08
Does anyone know if it is growing or shrinking over time?


Sales for this years tickets are much much better than last years.

Like hugely better already.

As to whether this will continue to be so...:confused:

sheck2
14-05-2009, 14:31
Games Day has become too standardised. In each area and each year, they follow the same pattern each time.

Yes - the same pattern, which is GREAT! You missed a lot of stuff to do.

* Paint and take...paint as many figures as you want and take'em home. The con is...it is usually older figures that 'vets' will never want like fantasy orcs, old 40k basic troops, skeletons, etc. This event is unimportant to me, but my son loves it!

* Conversion contest...get a half dozen sprues and make models. I usually create 3-6 really cool models. This year I used the CSM sprues, spawn sprues, possessed sprues, SM sprues, chaos warrior sprues, and marauder sprues to build/assemble 4 awesome CSM possessed guys or CSM squad leaders/HQ units. I have always created models that would have cost me at least $25 if I had bought the sprues retail. This event alone 'pays' for the ticket. A favorite of mine and my sons.

* Terrain making...again unlimited (or until they run out of sprues) COD sprues to make buildings. I usually make one or two buildings, which would have required at least one COD box. Again - retail value is at least $25. Ticket gets paid for again! This is and the conversion contest are my favorites.

* Club gaming tables and big games. The quality and theme may vary, but overall these are fun events. Use someone else's models, play very large games, etc. What I missed this year was the singing, dancing, and yelling contests (with prizes of course!).

* Speed painting...not a big fan as you rarely get to keep the models, which my son hates. He wants to keep what he paints :)

* What they elimiated this year was the tourney...for me I could never play in a tourney and do eveything above...so losing that was unimportant to me.

* They also de-emphasized open gaming...bring your own models and play someone you meet at GD. Unimportant to me as I play in three different clubs. To me, GameDay is more of a 'activity convention' than a place to go and play against others in normal gaming.

BigRob
14-05-2009, 14:51
The decline i noticed having gone to Gamesdays in the 90's and then again in 2001-2005 was the loss of the "effortE made by the company. Costumes were restricted, the big mega displays and some of the smaller ones were gone, alot of the Specialist games/Citadel Journal/other stuff stands were gone or packed into a small hall down about 6 flights of steep stairs, a distinct drop in the number of freebies (back in the day the retail people would just give unsold stuff away at the end of the event) and a dramatic increase in retail of regular stock. The new stuff always sold out early of course but they would still be peddling regular boxes and blisters at the same prices as they were instore.

As for Golden Deamon, a local at my store with several of the statues to his name in various catagories confirmed that people who have won in the past or have connections are picked above unknown names. This is especially true when you see Gold winners who have painted models that were unreleased at the time or were released at gamesday.

BigEaZyE
14-05-2009, 17:14
I went to every GamesDay in Canada since they started, and I loved them back then. Last year I was VERY disappointed. Not only was the ticket price higher than normal, you no longer get the gamesDay mini included, you have to buy it on it's own.

Added to this, the main things I loved going to Gamesday for were the incredible tables GW had made, as well as the seminars and previews of new stuff.

I sat in line last year to get into Gamesday and the most impressive thing I saw was the demo for Warhammer Online.

There were one or two cool tables from rogue trader stores, but that was it. As far as I could tell, GW's involvement was a map of the warhammer fantasy world using the tiles that came out, and a life size ordinance blast marker that employees annoyed attendees with by draping it over them. The previews were for the new starter set that everyone had already seen.

Unless there's something amazing at this years which I doubt. I'm not spending $50 on a day just to watch people play or take part in playing on tables that look just as good as the ones at my local store. I can do that for free.

Spleendokta
15-05-2009, 01:23
The little funk smell'n kids all go to games day... and they can have it. They can scream WAAGH! every 10 minutes and dress up like jedi all they want. Pay full price for products on top of what already is an expensive ticket to enter the building. Its like... a big GW store? Whats the point?

Us big kids will stick to Adepticon and will continue to laugh at the GW flea market... I mean gamesday.

firestorm40k
15-05-2009, 16:13
You missed a lot of stuff to do.

* Paint and take...paint as many figures as you want and take'em home. The con is...it is usually older figures that 'vets' will never want like fantasy orcs, old 40k basic troops, skeletons, etc. This event is unimportant to me, but my son loves it!

* Conversion contest...get a half dozen sprues and make models. I usually create 3-6 really cool models. This year I used the CSM sprues, spawn sprues, possessed sprues, SM sprues, chaos warrior sprues, and marauder sprues to build/assemble 4 awesome CSM possessed guys or CSM squad leaders/HQ units. I have always created models that would have cost me at least $25 if I had bought the sprues retail. This event alone 'pays' for the ticket. A favorite of mine and my sons.

* Terrain making...again unlimited (or until they run out of sprues) COD sprues to make buildings. I usually make one or two buildings, which would have required at least one COD box. Again - retail value is at least $25. Ticket gets paid for again! This is and the conversion contest are my favorites.

* Club gaming tables and big games. The quality and theme may vary, but overall these are fun events. Use someone else's models, play very large games, etc. What I missed this year was the singing, dancing, and yelling contests (with prizes of course!).

* Speed painting...not a big fan as you rarely get to keep the models, which my son hates. He wants to keep what he paints :)

* What they elimiated this year was the tourney...for me I could never play in a tourney and do eveything above...so losing that was unimportant to me.

* They also de-emphasized open gaming...bring your own models and play someone you meet at GD. Unimportant to me as I play in three different clubs. To me, GameDay is more of a 'activity convention' than a place to go and play against others in normal gaming.
This all sounds great, do they do it at the UK Event?

I last went in 2004, it was my third visit (having been in 2001 & 3), went with my mate who was entering Golden Daemon (he got a bronze that year, then promptly quit the hobby! :cries: ); aside from seeing my mate win a thoroughly deserved GD, it just felt like a glorified shopping trip to be honest. I bought a couple of pre-release Marine sets (4th Edition plastic Command Squad etc, back when they were new :D ), a couple of small FW pieces, queued ages to see the previews and the other GD entires, and couldn't play any of the games due to the large numbers of people crowding round them.

However, I'm actually thinking of going this year, it'd be cool to meet some fellow Warseer-ers, I'm thinking of taking my 11-year old Step-son (though I think some people on here might consider that child abuse, ha! :p ). I won't be going to buy anything, I certainly won't be expecting to play any games, but I'd like to try and get in to one of the seminars.

Ixquic
15-05-2009, 16:47
a big GW store?

This is exactly the image I get of it. Like really why go to a larger version of what you can go to any day of the week?

If the ticket sales are indeed better, I guess I just don't understand the mindset of the people that play this game anymore...

Emperor's Grace
15-05-2009, 18:51
So why are people going?

Does anyone know if it is growing or shrinking over time?

All I know is that when I last went (late 90's/early 00's) they actually had to move to a larger hall twice. From what I hear now, they had a lot of open space in the hall they're in.


Sales for this years tickets are much much better than last years.

Like hugely better already.

Maybe due to the price drop? :D

Warboss Antoni
16-05-2009, 02:26
Originally Posted by sheck2
You missed a lot of stuff to do.

* Paint and take...paint as many figures as you want and take'em home. The con is...it is usually older figures that 'vets' will never want like fantasy orcs, old 40k basic troops, skeletons, etc. This event is unimportant to me, but my son loves it!

* Conversion contest...get a half dozen sprues and make models. I usually create 3-6 really cool models. This year I used the CSM sprues, spawn sprues, possessed sprues, SM sprues, chaos warrior sprues, and marauder sprues to build/assemble 4 awesome CSM possessed guys or CSM squad leaders/HQ units. I have always created models that would have cost me at least $25 if I had bought the sprues retail. This event alone 'pays' for the ticket. A favorite of mine and my sons.

* Terrain making...again unlimited (or until they run out of sprues) COD sprues to make buildings. I usually make one or two buildings, which would have required at least one COD box. Again - retail value is at least $25. Ticket gets paid for again! This is and the conversion contest are my favorites.

* Club gaming tables and big games. The quality and theme may vary, but overall these are fun events. Use someone else's models, play very large games, etc. What I missed this year was the singing, dancing, and yelling contests (with prizes of course!).

* Speed painting...not a big fan as you rarely get to keep the models, which my son hates. He wants to keep what he paints

* What they elimiated this year was the tourney...for me I could never play in a tourney and do eveything above...so losing that was unimportant to me.

* They also de-emphasized open gaming...bring your own models and play someone you meet at GD. Unimportant to me as I play in three different clubs. To me, GameDay is more of a 'activity convention' than a place to go and play against others in normal gaming.


I went to baltimore this year... And I can tell you it sucked compared to the past few years....


1. Paint and Take: Run out by 1. And hardly any variety, the cheap onepose models you can buy in boxes of 4 for $8.

2. Conversion Contest: Gotta admit this is awesome. Love the huge pile of sprues and models I come home with every year... except this year. If you didn't get a seat in the beginning, you were ****ed. Sprues ran out by like 2 and what was left was piles of arms and heads on sprues... did get some stuff, more then the ticket, but still, big let down from what every year had.

3. Terrain making: didn't run out that fast, although it's hard to build the buildings ( like the roofs, especially ) with only clippers. Hardboard ran out really quick so they just gave out ripped cardboard.

4. Club Tables: I really saw hardly any. A few cool ones, but there were hardly any tables in general. I was looking forward to maybe finding a pre-set table GW always has for WoTR, considering its rare round here. But alas, I was dissapointed.


5. Speed Paint: Fun, and I did like the Speed Demon. However being a Youngblood I had no chance ( althought I did make the final pick, yay ).



All in all, kinda suckish.... After 2 it basically died with the make and xs run out or filled up, and with no tables to play and filled big games it got boring quick. Lots of people left early, they ended at 4:30 instead of 6. I painfully stayed till 4 for the GD judging ( and I won Silver in Youngbloods, yay ) and left. Hardly any giveaway, got more then my tickets worth but went for the fun, not for stuff ( i'm all for free stuff, but it was underwhelming compared to every other year ).