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rtunian
10-05-2009, 20:56
so i was toying around with an idea for making a savage orc great shaman mounted on wyvern, lv.4, with waaagh! paint, skull wand of kaloth, bigged's kickin' boots, and enchanted shield. 515 points for the whole dealie... it's a fair bit of points, but i think it could be worth it. plus i'm wanting to try something a little different from my normal, conservative lists.

mainly the idea stemmed from trying to make the best use of skull wand of kaloth (for each successful hit, the enemy must pass an initiative test or be slain instantly with no armor, ward, or regeneration save allowed). i figured the best use would be on a lord, since hero shams only get 50 points of items, and shams have only 1 attack. to max the attacks at 3, i added savage and kicking boots. to make the best use of savage lord, i was in a toss up between mounting on a chariot and wyvern... decided on wyvern since the point of this char is to kick butt at both combat and magic.

but... there is no shaman on wyvern package! so i have to get boss on wyvern and then 2 shams (one for on foot). i thought the best thing to do would be to buy a boar sham, and then just put him on the wyvern instead of on the boar... will this work? or will i have to remodel the sham to get him to fit on the wyvern? if it requires alot of remodeling, i might think about buying the newer savage orc shaman model instead.

another important question: though it's my lord choice (2-2.5k games), with ld8 it doesn't beat the orc big boss, so i can still make orc big boss my general, right?

thanks for any insights, opinions, and infos~

Urgat
10-05-2009, 21:05
oh, looky!
http://www.cobraworld.net/nico/warhammer/orcsandgobs/shamwyvwip2.jpg
You have to get it on ebay as I did though since it's long been out of production. Other than that, shame I'm not home since I have Wurzhag and he's basically the default shaman orc with an alternative head and staff (well, it's actually the other way around but nvm), but iirc he should go easily on a wyvern.
Oh and yes, the general is the one of the highest LD.

selone
10-05-2009, 22:26
I think you already know the answer matey. It's a big gamble having a level 4 sorc lord that suffers frenzy and certainly isn't 'optimal'. That said its a pretty fun idea and you'll catch some people out.

Isn't it a ld test not an I test btw?

Nuada
10-05-2009, 22:38
I've tried that once rtunian, it worked well. Exactly the same reason as you, trying to figure how best to use the skullwand. I had the sav orc shaman in a chariot, and moonwalked to prevent him charging in a forest.

If he gets in combat try and also cast bash 'em ladz on him, then he'll also reroll his three to-hit rolls. It is Ld the enemy tests on, you don't even have to wound. I used it on a varghulf, they only have Ld4.

The problem i tried to rectify was the exposed shaman, because after he's charged you don't want him on his own. My only solution was taking a few more boar chariots alongside him. It worked very well in that particular game, but i haven't tried it since.

rtunian
10-05-2009, 23:22
sweet shot, urgat!
hmm i was looking at wurzag too... does he come in an on-foot version as well, or just the mounted version?

damn, i must have confused it with mork wants ya... initiative would be much better hehehe :) or shiz, since i'm wish listing, ballistic skill!

hmm i'm not so sure i buy the negative hype about o&g magic. sure, the critical fails on miscast table are worse than normal, but the higher end of the miscast table isn't as bad at all (except for 12). i guess the optimal choice would be to not take a wyvern or a great shaman at all, but probably something like a black orc warboss on a boar with all the trimmings... safe, powerful, and reliable. well, i'm going to try cashing in some safe and reliable for a bit more powerful hehehe :)

watch, the first time i cast with him i will double roll snake eyes :p

bash 'em is a good call. as for support, there's nothing that can just follow him around, so i'll just have to pick my targets based on where i can cover with counter-charge arcs. since i usually deploy pretty wide (although with 500 points on one model, i'll have a much smaller deployment than normal...) it shouldn't be too limited.

Avian
11-05-2009, 06:54
I have some trouble with the idea of taking a 515 point guy to get the most out of a not very good 40 pt weapon. Against most things he's not going to be overly effective against things other than big critters with low LD, and there aren't that many of them out there. Meanwhile he's rubbish against a lot of other things and a frenzied wizard is not exactly a great setup.

Tizz
11-05-2009, 07:05
I've had that combo take out my Arch Lector on War Alter before

Urgat
11-05-2009, 08:08
sweet shot, urgat!
hmm i was looking at wurzag too... does he come in an on-foot version as well, or just the mounted version?

Nah, sadly, he doesn't come on foot. Same, the old shaman/wyvern I posted didn't come on foot, but then again, you won't find many monster rider models that also come on foot. Which is a shame, really, since they're needed when the monster is slain...

warlord hack'a
11-05-2009, 09:24
if you like the idea try it out. If you have to pay cahs to get the model, don't do it! Although 3 attacks and then ld test or die sounds nice there are a few hiccups:

1) if you want to try and take out enemy characters you have to be in btb with them, so this means you have to charge to the front of enemy units most of the time. This means that you have a big chance of still losing combat if the enemy unit is ranked up.
2) enemy characters can simply have their unit champ take the challenge or downright refuse, anybody that gets charged by a frnezied wizard should know there is a trap ready to be srpung somewhere..
3) even with the ld test or die you only have 3 attacks at low ld, so 1.5 will hit, meaning the enemy character will have to pass a ld test 1.5 times, most enemy character, having ld 9, will pass.
4) you can get shot, baited and countercharged (shaman lord dies in close combat easily) quite easily.
5) a lot of spells do not work in close combat and that is where you shaman will be a lot..

6) if you want to do damage to the enemy, why not take a svg orc warlord with shagas screaming sword, kicking boots and a wyvern. He has 7-10 S6-9 attacks, can flank an enemy unit and still be effective (even more effective actually) and is cheaper to boot!

Avian
11-05-2009, 09:35
I've had that combo take out my Arch Lector on War Alter before
Just because a person won a game of russian roulette, it doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do. :D

TheDarkDuke
11-05-2009, 15:45
I doubt its really worth it putting a frenzied spellcaster on a flying mount especially at that cost. That and im almost positive that a orc shaman cannot take a basic shield so that means no enchanted shield for him.

rtunian
11-05-2009, 16:22
thanks folks.

about spending so much for so little - this isn't something i plan on using on a regular basis, but something fun & different from my normal conservative lists. i understand the risks involved in this choice, but thought that the output would be better than what you guys are advising. also, i misbelieved the weapon to use an I test not an Ld, which inflated my opinion of it.

about casting and combat - 4 of 6 big waaagh! spells can be cast while in combat. the only 2 that can't are gaze of gork and headbutt. waaagh!, warpath, fists, and bash'em are all castable while in combat, and castable on units that are already in combat.

about the performance of wyvern - doesn't the wyvern perform fairly well? sure it only has 3 attacks, but they are at good stats, ws5 s6 is nothing to sneeze at.

about the use of the unit - i wasn't actually thinking of character assassination when i thought of this unit. i was thinking of using it in a reactionary fashion... keeping behind the line, buffing units' speed and asf, dropping warty feet, and generally being ready to plug in wherever the battle dictates that it's needed... but i wasn't really considering how limiting savageness was in that respect. all the enemy would have to do is get any fast cav or flier behind my line and i would more than likely have to charge it, possibly taking me out of range for supporting the front for a few turns.

about warboss on wyvern - i don't like the idea of having my general on a wyvern. he should be down in the scrap. if i put anything other than a shaman up there, it will have the highest ld and have to be the gen.

about enchanted shield - it's a magic item. i could have selected armor of gork or spiteful shield for him if i wanted. doesn't matter that he can't equip mundane armor/shield.

i guess i should think about slapping the savage out of him, eh? 1 less attack and less a 6+ ward save is not as much of a loss as potentially having 500 points taken out of the fight to deal with an 80 point unit against my will. of course now the wand seems even less viable... hmm it's quite a conundrum.

TheDarkDuke
11-05-2009, 16:27
You should really read your rulebook on magic items. page 121 under magic armour 3 paragraph. I think you should read your rulebook alot more as its a pretty clear rule.

Dungeon_Lawyer
11-05-2009, 16:40
thanks folks.

about spending so much for so little - this isn't something i plan on using on a regular basis, but something fun & different from my normal conservative lists. i understand the risks involved in this choice, but thought that the output would be better than what you guys are advising. also, i misbelieved the weapon to use an I test not an Ld, which inflated my opinion of it.

about casting and combat - 4 of 6 big waaagh! spells can be cast while in combat. the only 2 that can't are gaze of gork and headbutt. waaagh!, warpath, fists, and bash'em are all castable while in combat, and castable on units that are already in combat.

about the performance of wyvern - doesn't the wyvern perform fairly well? sure it only has 3 attacks, but they are at good stats, ws5 s6 is nothing to sneeze at.

about the use of the unit - i wasn't actually thinking of character assassination when i thought of this unit. i was thinking of using it in a reactionary fashion... keeping behind the line, buffing units' speed and asf, dropping warty feet, and generally being ready to plug in wherever the battle dictates that it's needed... but i wasn't really considering how limiting savageness was in that respect. all the enemy would have to do is get any fast cav or flier behind my line and i would more than likely have to charge it, possibly taking me out of range for supporting the front for a few turns.

about warboss on wyvern - i don't like the idea of having my general on a wyvern. he should be down in the scrap. if i put anything other than a shaman up there, it will have the highest ld and have to be the gen.

about enchanted shield - it's a magic item. i could have selected armor of gork or spiteful shield for him if i wanted. doesn't matter that he can't equip mundane armor/shield.

i guess i should think about slapping the savage out of him, eh? 1 less attack and less a 6+ ward save is not as much of a loss as potentially having 500 points taken out of the fight to deal with an 80 point unit against my will. of course now the wand seems even less viable... hmm it's quite a conundrum.


Just take him, he sounds like fun. Its only a game afterall.

rtunian
11-05-2009, 16:45
You should really read your rulebook on magic items. page 121 under magic armour 3 paragraph. I think you should read your rulebook alot more as its a pretty clear rule.

touche.

so you think i should read it alot more? maybe you're right. maybe i should read it every night before bed. maybe i should put it under my pillow when i sleep. maybe i should kill myself because i haven't memorized it yet and i've already been playing for four months.

or maybe i can make mistakes now and then and not be subject to insulting condescension. alas, that's just a fantasy~

Braad
11-05-2009, 16:48
Orc Great Shaman, Basha's Bloodaxe, Amulet of Protectyness, WAAAGH Paint. If you want to be cool, try this one. And you could exchange the WAAAGH pain for Maad's Map too. No-one is going to expect a whirling tornado of slashy and fiery death...

About a savage orc shaman on wyvern... it's a bold thing to do, but also risky. But any O&G player should be able to live with risks, so I don't think that's a problem :)

Though probably this would be nicer, if you ask me:
6 or 7 savage boar boyz, and in the middle: savage great shaman on boar with the skull wand, kickin' boots, WAAAGH! paint and collar of zorga.

And... do not forget to include a few more shamans in the army, and also take the horn of urgok (!!), to lower your enemy's leadership, to increase the effect of the skull wand even more.

Dungeon_Lawyer
11-05-2009, 17:21
I was just going to suggest some waaagh paint too! It seems like a natural fit.

rtunian
11-05-2009, 18:02
and also take the horn of urgok (!!)

pure genius!
and to think i once posted about how useless the horn seemed~

Urgat
11-05-2009, 18:38
Maad's Map too.

Not on a wyvern though. Btw, the wyvern isn't too impressive, but it's better when frenzied :)

Braad
12-05-2009, 05:52
Not on a wyvern though.

No, indeed, and same for the bloodaxe. This one is meant on foot, as there is no wyvern in its 'equipment'. The nice thing about this is you get a 360 charge arc and -1 to hit on shooting, and are allowed to use the map and the axe. Could also upgrade him to savage for the ward, but you waste a few points as you already got the frenzy on the axe.

If you go with the horn, also take the pipes of doom on a night gobbo, since this is also a ld-based item. The combo works nice against cav/chariot heavy armies that are not lizardmen. Sadly, I play against lizardmen a lot, so I rarely use it. But especially against Brets I can see uses.

Mid'ean
12-05-2009, 17:27
I have enjoyed playing a Shaman Lord of wyvren before. Went magic heavy and totally owed VC in a recent game. I used the orc shaman on boar and put him on a McFarlane dragon/wyvren...Still a WiP though....

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d161/kobahl/Battle016.jpg

davidvonhauser
12-05-2009, 18:49
Love the WIP corpse cart you got going there.

(wyvern's cool too, I guess.)

rtunian
12-05-2009, 19:24
that's pretty ******* sweet

Mid'ean
13-05-2009, 11:07
Love the WIP corpse cart you got going there.

(wyvern's cool too, I guess.)

HA! Not my cart but my Wyvren found it tasty. But not very filling....:cries:

Sly Rax
13-05-2009, 15:07
mainly the idea stemmed from trying to make the best use of skull wand of kaloth (for each successful hit, the enemy must pass an initiative test or be slain instantly with no armor, ward, or regeneration save allowed)

Just to let you know rtunian that its a leadership test that they take, not a initiative test.

It would be great for takeing out trolls and most other monster type things!

Dungeon_Lawyer
13-05-2009, 15:17
I have enjoyed playing a Shaman Lord of wyvren before. Went magic heavy and totally owed VC in a recent game. I used the orc shaman on boar and put him on a McFarlane dragon/wyvren...Still a WiP though....

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d161/kobahl/Battle016.jpg

that is awesome! Was it a savage shamen btw? Im going to try the shamen/wyvern build-It looks like great fun. Im gonna use the wurzagg(sic) model.....I always like that model.


sweet shot, urgat!
hmm i was looking at wurzag too... does he come in an on-foot version as well, or just the mounted version?

bash 'em is a good call. as for support, there's nothing that can just follow him around, so i'll just have to pick my targets based on where i can cover with counter-charge arcs. since i usually deploy pretty wide (although with 500 points on one model, i'll have a much smaller deployment than normal...) it shouldn't be too limited.

I dunno you can prob negate the worst effects of frenzy with proper placement of troops around him? Perhaps fast cav units like w. riders and S. riders? Or does the fact that he is mounted /can fly come into to play and anything within his fly distance he must declare a charge on because of his frenzy?

Im gonna have to check the rbook.

sirbone
13-05-2009, 15:22
Orc magic does get a bad rap sometimes, and I guess reading about it online all the time does no good for those who want to experiment. I reckon magic heavy orcs can be very fun and very powerful.

The other day I played a 500pt game against a VC player and, instead of taking big boss on boar, I decided to take a level one shaman on foot with nibbla's itty ring. I rolled 'eadbutt on the Big Waaagh, and on magic turn one for me I killed his general with two mighty 'eadbutts. His army continued to crumble whilst mine squabbled and shot at his ghouls (the only remaining unit for him after turn 2) and by turn six I hadn't lost a model and all he had was a unit of ghouls anticipating a charge from three of my units. Waaaaaaaaaaagh magic did it for me, ha.

davidvonhauser
13-05-2009, 21:12
Double 'eadbutt would be pretty useful, especially in a small game. But the problem being it's far too random a 'tactic' to rely on. But then the reason O&G have such a bad rap is they're a far too random race to rely on!

And that's why we play them nyuk nyuk nyuk...

rtunian
13-05-2009, 21:47
I dunno you can prob negate the worst effects of frenzy with proper placement of troops around him? Perhaps fast cav units like w. riders and S. riders? Or does the fact that he is mounted /can fly come into to play and anything within his fly distance he must declare a charge on because of his frenzy?

big problem is when the enemy sends a flier or fast cav to hassle my war machines. if the sgsow is back there, he will pretty much have to charge them. i mean, i suppose it's not horrible because he can take out fliers and fast cav np i'm sure, but it takes him away from being able to support the front.

also the model that urgat used was this one:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod840860&rootCatGameStyle=

Cats Laughing
14-05-2009, 09:10
The fact that he's a Large model and a flyer, means that stopping the Frenzy charges will be down to LOS and Range.
Range you won't be able to do all that much about, as 20" is quite a bit and your opponent can always move closer in his turn with his throw away unit.
LOS is difficult. You can't screen his LOS(without another Large Target in the way, meaning Giants or more Wyverns), so you'll have to use terrain and flying backwards (which messes with some spell casting, not sure which spells need LOS)

selone
14-05-2009, 11:22
As said you cant screen him with fast cav. Hes large so can see over them and can fly thus can move over.

Dungeon_Lawyer
14-05-2009, 16:43
My reading of the big waaghh spells is that 1 and 2 require LOS while 3 to 6 do not so thats pretty good. The 1 and 2 spells are 24" so your just out of charge range to boot, npot bad. So you could perhaps screen him with 2 giants (front and to the right lets say) and then target units 24" away on the left wit your 1 and 2 spells. This build has really got me thinking--I might go this route(savage shamen on wyvern) When my envisioned 50+ spider rider army requires a lord to lead it.........2 giants as my rare slots. Yummy!!!

But first lizardmen, must finsh them.....

Klevenpro
28-08-2009, 20:32
sweet shot, urgat!
hmm i was looking at wurzag too... does he come in an on-foot version as well, or just the mounted version?


Nah, sadly, he doesn't come on foot. Same, the old shaman/wyvern I posted didn't come on foot, but then again, you won't find many monster rider models that also come on foot. Which is a shame, really, since they're needed when the monster is slain...

Actually he does I got a model of wurzag on foot.
I think i bought him in sweeden some years ago.

Chaplainen
28-08-2009, 23:26
The Sav G SHaman on Wyvern with the wand and kickin boots is standard when I play O&G. Works like a charm for me in about every third game, and in the other two it either goes straight to hell in late round 1 or round two, or he'll get stuck up somewhere and never gets to show his awesome powers ;)

But when it works it truly works :) wiped a unit of 6 Cold one Knights once just to overrun into a 15 spearman unit who fled and was wiped the next turn. Overall in that game he took out little over 700 pts so that was good :) but most of all I use him because it's a great lot of fun, like most of the O&G list is.

I use the Wurrzag model mounted on old Azag's Metal wyvern...looks kinda cool. Looking forward to seeing some conversions with the new azag wyvern too, if anyone can afford buying it that is... :)

Grupax
29-08-2009, 09:01
As said you cant screen him with fast cav. Hes large so can see over them and can fly thus can move over.

in the first turn you can always screen him with a gaint :p; that way they can't shoot him either.

Urgat
29-08-2009, 09:53
also the model that urgat used was this one:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod840860&rootCatGameStyle=

Nah, not this one, this one:
http://www.cobraworld.net/nico/warhammer/orcsandgobs/shamwyvwip6.jpg
It's an old 4th edition mini.


Actually he does I got a model of wurzag on foot.
I think i bought him in sweeden some years ago.

Well that's not a normal mini then, it's not availbale anywhere. You got a pic?

Harwammer
29-08-2009, 10:53
and also take the horn of urgok (!!), to lower your enemy's leadership, to increase the effect of the skull wand even more.

Skull wand is done on the target models own, unmodified leadership. It doesn't stack with the horn of urgok.