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View Full Version : Oh look, a sale!, or: How I Started Fantasy



Thud
11-05-2009, 13:34
So, there I am, at the local gaming store, looking for the new Imperial Guard codex* but it is sold out it seems, so I start to wander about towards that creepy square-base section of the shop and what do I find? A sale! Not just a sale, but the prices are insane! More than 50% off on the Dark Elves Spearhead boxed set. And it even includes the codex... errr... army book. Is this a clever ruse? I ask the teller. He says it is in fact true. Not losing any time I buy it and run home.

And here I am. With a Fantasy army I don't know how to use. I've played 40k for more than a decade, but apart from a very short flirtation with the Vampire Counts a good many years ago I've stayed well clear of these mysterious square bases and their weird need to stay very close together to one another.

My question, then, to you, is; what the hell do I do now? I've already gone back to the shop and picked up another Cold One squad, because they are too cool not to have as many as possible of in one's army. What's next? What's good in Fantasy? These Black Ark Corsairs, do I give them those nifty crossbows, or go pure close combat? Is it cool to ignore that magic nonsense, or are the fifty sorcerers that came with the Spearhead mandatory in a good army? Do I run out and get another Hydra? Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbows, yay or nay? Is it viable to run almost all mounted?


*That would be an army book to you lot.

Geep
11-05-2009, 13:50
One of the first things you'll want is a goal- an army list to collect to. Warhammer units are limited in the number of restrained in their number of core, special and rare units, which varies by points, unlike in 40k. I'd post this in the army designing area and try to get help from DE generals (I don't play them, but know a bit about them).
The spearhead is usually just the newest models, so I'm guessing you're lacking in basic units (I don't know what was in the spearhead). Repeater crossbowmen are fairly popular, so you'll probably want them. Dark riders are also very good- decent in combat and shooting.
For the corsairs, I've only heard negative things about the crossbows.
Magic isn't really needed in Warhammer, but it can be a fun part of the game.
You'll really need more of an idea of what you want your army to be like.

WhyNotCrashDifferently?
11-05-2009, 13:55
I apologise in advance for being that pedantic ********, but it's yea or nay, not yay.

That being said, one Hydra is enough! You will make only enemies if you ever field two.

Reticent
11-05-2009, 15:37
First congratulations on a heck of a deal!

To answer one of your questions- you'll find that manuever is even more important in Fantasy than 40k (some would say much more so). While mobility isn't the only consideration, going all or almost all mounted is very viable.

I'm not a DE player so I'm not going to get too specific with what to get, but looking at the spearhead contents it seems you just need to pick up a couple of "core" choices to be able to put a viable army down on the table.

Flying Toaster
11-05-2009, 15:45
Where is this store that does 50% off?!?!! I would like to visit it...

enyoss
11-05-2009, 15:48
And then he woke up, and it was all a just a dream... :)

Draconian77
11-05-2009, 16:02
If you post up a rough list of your wants and haves in the army list section ill be sure to visit it later and give you some advice.

A few general things though:

All mounted/mostly mounted/heavily mounted = Perfectly viable.

You will probably always be using at least 1 Sorceress, dont rush out and buy another until you have played a few practice games and decided whether to take a lot of magic or not.

I don't here great things about Corsairs, I think the general consensus is that the same amount of points put into Spearmen and Crossbowmen are points better spent.

I don't like giving Xbows to the Riders, quite expensive(and very innacurate) on a unit that will likely be used as bait or as a timely sacrifice...

2 Hydras? I don't have a problem with that. Most people do but its your army!
But, there are many advantages to having some Bolt Throwers in your list so I suggest proxying until you decide which you prefer.

That would be my biggest bit of advice, proxy everything and try everything out before buying left right and centre. Start with small games(1k) and work your way up.(2k-3k)

If you have any friends that collect DE convince them to lend you the army every now and then and play some games! Its the only way a new player can decide what to use in my opinion. Letting someone just build your list for you might leave you with a very powerful list(depending on the person...) but you might not enjoy it as much as a "personal" army.

dwarfhold13
11-05-2009, 16:39
so you got corsairs, knights (lots of them now), a hydra and a bunch of characters right? mounted sorceress, mounted master, lokhir, a sorceress and an assassin?
i would recommend:
some regular warriors
dark riders
repeater bolt throwers (x2)
and you could make a decent little list

master in 5 cold one unit, sorceress w/ sacrificial dagger and scroll in warrior unit, assassin in with the corsairs armed with two hand weapons (so there is a little defense!)
a sorceress on cold one is a little too expensive and slow.. i like the dark steed instead..
a little more expensive and you could do a unit of shades or black guard
anyway.. there you go :)

TheDarkDuke
11-05-2009, 17:13
I'd say do what ever you really want. dark elves are a strong army in which i dont think they really have any useless unit. I won't deny that some units are better then others and some options are better then others but nothing in there is as bad or stupid as giving chaos warhounds poison or a 6+ scaly skin save...

im just more shocked that there was a discount on a GW product. i didnt even think they knew the meaning of that word....:rolleyes: but then spearheads didn't sell very well.

Crube
11-05-2009, 17:22
Welcome to the dark side... we may not have cookies, but we do have beer ;)

On a serious note, I'd head over to the Army list subforum - there's a stack of DE lists there of all descriptions. I always find the input there to be incredibly valuable.

Also, get a few units painted and try a couple of games. You'll learn alot about how you'll play WFB. THat's the good thing about DE - there are as many ways of playing them as there are players.

bob_the_small
11-05-2009, 17:32
Was that sale exclusive to your store???

Lord Dan
11-05-2009, 17:33
I apologise in advance for being that pedantic ********, but it's yea or nay, not yay.


In America "yea" is a shortened form of "yeah". I'm sure the OP thought that "yay" was a phonetically better replacement, as the expression "Yea or Nay" is pronounced "Yay or nay", but in the US could be misinterpreted as "Yeah or Nay".

Also, it's "apologize". :)

Back on topic, to the OP: Find a way to get your hands on the rulebook. I think you'll have a much easier time figuring out what is "good" in the army book if you have a more solid understanding of how the fundamental game rules function.

kyussinchains
11-05-2009, 17:41
Also, it's "apologize". :)

to you colonials perhaps, not so much to the Brits..... ;)

so not wanting to derail the thread entirely, I'd recommend getting some dark riders, 2 units is almost essential really, Harpies are another unit of a thousand uses, black guard are one of the best infantry units in the game for their points value, shades are also fantastic, especially with great weapons.

Depending on how much complaining you want to deal with, it might be worth sticking to a single hydra, and grabbing a bolt thrower or two....

WhyNotCrashDifferently?
11-05-2009, 17:45
In America "yea" is a shortened form of "yeah". I'm sure the OP thought that "yay" was a phonetically better replacement, as the expression "Yea or Nay" is pronounced "Yay or nay", but in the US could be misinterpreted as "Yeah or Nay".
I understand the reason why (I'm Canadian), I simply see that mistake made so often on forums (especially poll threads) and it galls me. I'm just being anal about it in a nice way.


Also, it's "apologize". :)
Incorrect, Yankee.

Lord Dan
11-05-2009, 17:45
to you colonials perhaps, not so much to the Brits..... ;)

Point taken. I so easily forget about things like "alu-mini-um". ;)

Lord Dan
11-05-2009, 17:47
I'm just being anal about it in a nice way.

I thought you were very respectful (and very correct), I just felt the need to toss my 2 cents in there.

Thud
11-05-2009, 18:30
The shop was not a GW store, it was an independent retailer. They also had a couple of 40k battle forces at 60% off and a whole bunch of WoW action figure thingies at 90% off.

As for the "yay/yea/yippi" discussion, English is not my native language, so you'll all have to excuse me. ;) I actually appreciate you pointing it out, though, WNCD?, as I've never seen the expression written down before, only heard it.

Back on topic; I'll hang off buying the rule book for a couple of weeks as I have an upcoming exam, but obviously I'll get to that eventually.

For now I'm thinking about an army of two units of Cold Ones, two units of Dark Riders, a unit of Corsairs with Assassin and either Sorceress or some hero-type, the Hydra and a couple of Bolt Throwers. Should be around 1,000 points or so, right?

Also, what's the meta-game in Fantasy? I've heard that Daemons and Vampire Counts are the top armies, but what is it that makes them good? And, referring to the comments by WNCD? and kyussinchains, what makes the Hydra so good? From a 40k player's stance, it doesn't look -that- impressive. Am I missing something?

Edit: @Crube: I'll be heading over to the Army List forum eventually, but I just wanted to make this thread first to get a lay of the land, so to speak. I know absolutely nothing about Fantasy, so any input is good.

bob_the_small
11-05-2009, 18:44
In fantasy the hydra is AMAZING, it can move 6 inches (march 12), has WS 4, Str 5, T 5, 5 Wounds, and 7 (i am not kidding) a whole 7 bloody attacks! Then you have the handlers attacks too, 6 str 3 armour piercing!

And to top it all off its only 175 points, I would say that what you are going to buy is around 1500 points, with upgrades, just in case you don't know (not trying to be rude) the norm for games in fantasy with our funny square bases is 2000 or 2250 points, I suggest before you even build your models, I would buy the army book and see what you want to give them models, plus you could do a themed army (Khainite) or you could go for all cheese (DE are 3rd after VC and daemons).

Yours,

Bob

ICLRK625
11-05-2009, 18:47
The shop was not a GW store, it was an independent retailer. They also had a couple of 40k battle forces at 60% off and a whole bunch of WoW action figure thingies at 90% off.

As for the "yay/yea/yippi" discussion, English is not my native language, so you'll all have to excuse me. ;) I actually appreciate you pointing it out, though, WNCD?, as I've never seen the expression written down before, only heard it.

Back on topic; I'll hang off buying the rule book for a couple of weeks as I have an upcoming exam, but obviously I'll get to that eventually.

For now I'm thinking about an army of two units of Cold Ones, two units of Dark Riders, a unit of Corsairs with Assassin and either Sorceress or some hero-type, the Hydra and a couple of Bolt Throwers. Should be around 1,000 points or so, right?

Also, what's the meta-game in Fantasy? I've heard that Daemons and Vampire Counts are the top armies, but what is it that makes them good? And, referring to the comments by WNCD? and kyussinchains, what makes the Hydra so good? From a 40k player's stance, it doesn't look -that- impressive. Am I missing something?

Edit: @Crube: I'll be heading over to the Army List forum eventually, but I just wanted to make this thread first to get a lay of the land, so to speak. I know absolutely nothing about Fantasy, so any input is good.

Simply put, the Hydra hits hard, is extremely hard to kill (for most armies) and costs next to nothing (it costs less then a Giant, and is infinitely more useful).

In terms of the meta-game, supposedly Daemons, Vampire Counts and Dark Elves rule the scene, but from the stance of local tournaments, I've seen some "low tier" armies wipe the floor with them (granted the kid playing Daemons couldn't have been any more then 14 years old).

enyoss
11-05-2009, 19:13
to you colonials perhaps, not so much to the Brits..... ;)


Incorrect, you pious sod! ;)

Apologize is perfectly correct British English as well. The `cult of s', as I like to call it in my own pious way, mainly arose to make the yanks feel small and illiterate. Now everyone thinks that using z is somehow wrong, and as a result Brits, and Brits alone, will spend from now to eternity agonizing over its correct usage. Talk about an own goal. :D

As for the OP: good job on getting that stuff cheap! I remember on the cusp of 6th edition when myself and kyussinchains picked up a ton of metal models for a song. I have no idea what was going through workshop's mind when they did it; a bit of pricing bulemia perhaps?

WhyNotCrashDifferently?
11-05-2009, 19:17
Just adding to the pile, Hydras are widely regarded as being undercosted/overpowered/cheesy/beardy/chooseyourcliche. Personally I'd play against a list with two of them (Dwarfs don't lack for strong flaming attacks), but if you take two then expect some dirty looks and complaining, or even rare individuals refusing to play you.

bob_the_small laid out the specifics of why but in a nutshell it's just too good for its points cost. It should cost more.

kyussinchains
11-05-2009, 20:59
Incorrect, you pious sod! ;)

Apologize is perfectly correct British English as well. The `cult of s', as I like to call it in my own pious way, mainly arose to make the yanks feel small and illiterate. Now everyone thinks that using z is somehow wrong, and as a result Brits, and Brits alone, will spend from now to eternity agonizing over its correct usage. Talk about an own goal. :D

As for the OP: good job on getting that stuff cheap! I remember on the cusp of 6th edition when myself and kyussinchains picked up a ton of metal models for a song. I have no idea what was going through workshop's mind when they did it; a bit of pricing bulemia perhaps?

Firstly, I was stating that the spelling with an S is a perfectly valid way to spell the word, I've no problem using the Z spelling either, my point was to state that they are both correct according to this (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apologise)

secondly I remember when we got 30 models for 20.... even the guy at mail order thought it was 20 models for 30 and sounded genuinely shocked when he had it confirmed the other way around.....

oh and regarding multiple hydras, you might get whinged at if you just use one.... Enyoss got quite upset in a recent game where he wiped the rest of my army out but couldn't kill the hydra....yes it was late, he needed some coffee, but you'd be surprised how some people can complain that the hydra is overpowered when they only get a crushing victory facing one rather than a total wipeout... ;)

The hydra is great for all the aforementioned reasons, the unit doles out a total of 13 attacks, which all get to re-roll misses in the first round of combat (every round against high elves) the hydra is fast, can move through woods without penalty (as the unit skirmishes) has a very potent breath attack (one of the most powerful in the game) and costs a mere 175 points (when the far inferior manticore costs 200 points you know you're getting a bargain)

compared to the hydra in 6th edition, it has 4 extra attacks, regenerates and costs 45 points LESS.... it's great!

Draconian77
11-05-2009, 21:18
The hydra is great for all the aforementioned reasons, the unit doles out a total of 13 attacks, which all get to re-roll misses in the first round of combat (every round against high elves) the hydra is fast, can move through woods without penalty (as the unit skirmishes)

Its not a true skirmisher so it doesn't have 360 degree LoS, also, when charging through terrain its a monster again(sigh...) so can only move 6(half of 12)

has a very potent breath attack (one of the most powerful in the game) and costs a mere 175 points (when the far inferior manticore costs 200 points you know you're getting a bargain)

The Manticore is not a good comparison to be fair, it is horribly ovepriced in the first place!

compared to the hydra in 6th edition, it has 4 extra attacks, regenerates and costs 45 points LESS.... it's great!

Not to mention the Hatred. Charges are so much more satisfying when you know that you cannot really fluff your attacks!

Pink Wins.
Continue?

kyussinchains
11-05-2009, 21:26
Pink Wins.
Continue?

the manticore comment was exactly my point, highlighting what a great deal the hydra is in the first place :)

Draconian77
11-05-2009, 21:34
the manticore comment was exactly my point, highlighting what a great deal the hydra is in the first place :)

Hmm, not really what I was getting at.

I was just pointing out in my own way that the Manticore is a terrible deal and the Hydra is a great deal.

A fairer comparison for either one would be to compare it to something that everyone thinks is "on the money" such as a Giant or something.

But I'm just nitpicking.

Anyway;

Hydra = Good.
Manticore = Bad.
Pink = Still Good.