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pootleberry
11-05-2009, 20:20
Just wondering whether anyone else has ever noticed just how poor lascannons seem to perform? It's not a rule thing but purely luck of the dice thing. No matter many of these things my gaming group fires, and it's a lot, they always seem to be really accurate but hit with nothing more powerful than a wet sponge...

Has anyone else suffered from one of the most powerful heavy weapons in the game hitting like a water pistol?

Maidel
11-05-2009, 20:21
Jervis mentioned that sort of thing in one of his articles - apparantly you only remember the bad rolls, not the good ones.

I think i just have bad luck :)

pootleberry
11-05-2009, 20:24
I sometimes wonder whether I've got a psychic connection with the dice as when I pick them up for the wounding/penetrating rolls I just know it's going to pop up a '1'.

Spooky...

Ozendorph
11-05-2009, 20:49
The vanquisher cannon has ruined me for all other AT weapons.

gamer2456
11-05-2009, 21:04
when my guard actually hit with them they are good, but nearly every time they fire (whether it be on a tank or in a heavy weapons team) the hit roll is always a 2 or a 3.

Dark Primus
11-05-2009, 21:08
And when I roll 20+ dices I mostly end up with more 1's then 6's for some odd reason. Why is that so? :cries:

aberrant_unc
11-05-2009, 21:10
The changes to the glance and pen charts hurt the lascannon more than any other weapon. The same changes turned 5th edition into Warhammer: Meltaweapons!

Maidel
11-05-2009, 21:13
And when I roll 20+ dices I mostly end up with more 1's then 6's for some odd reason. Why is that so? :cries:

Its something to do with the shape of GW dice. Dont ask me - but apparantly its so - if you use square sided dice it doesnt happen - but the gw rounded corner dice actually do favour rolling a 1.

IAMNOTHERE
11-05-2009, 21:15
It fills a niche, it's the 36-48 niche. Melta weaponry requires you to get close, at 12"+ you've no guarantee of glancing AV10, with a las cannon you get that at 48".

Now you put that on a twin linked platform and suddenly it's almost a guaranteed shot.

Jackmojo
11-05-2009, 21:17
Lascannons are for transport plinking in this edition...luckily everyone seems to be bringing more transports so it all works out :)

Jack

Lion El Jason
11-05-2009, 21:18
Almost all weapons on 40k are considered good or bad based on their special rules.
Lascannon have always been good for being almost as good as you can get for everything on one shot:
They started Str 9 (Out of 10)
2D6 Damage (out of a top of 4D6)
-6 Save (Out of a max of -7)

Now its similar:
Str 9 (Out of 10)
AP2 (Best is 1)


Ranges were also good both times. The thing Lascannon have always lacked is any special rules. They have always just been that good due to their "Basic stats"
Now special rules have become more important than these stats so lascannon are suffering.

Grand Master Raziel
11-05-2009, 21:18
Let's not forget Monstrous Creatures, either. Meltas aren't exactly ideal for killing those things before they get into your lines. Lascannons are a much better weapon for killing those suckers.

tuebor
11-05-2009, 21:20
Jervis mentioned that sort of thing in one of his articles - apparantly you only remember the bad rolls, not the good ones.

I think people remember the rolls that go against what they should expect. The Internet is awash with stories of lascannons failing to kill speeders and lasguns slaughtering Terminators and Daemon Princes.

Lion El Jason
11-05-2009, 21:21
Its something to do with the shape of GW dice. Dont ask me - but apparantly its so - if you use square sided dice it doesnt happen - but the gw rounded corner dice actually do favour rolling a 1.

No. Rounded corners do fail to rob the dice of energy as well as square ones but the number to which any given die is biased (And all GW Rounded dice are biased) is very hard to discover.

Since we use a lot of dice we get randomness from individual roles by selecting a biased die at random.

It all works out, don't believe the adverts (Or "Gamer science" as they call it) that tell you you need high quality dice. Quantity, in this case, really does make up for quality!

Lord Humongous
11-05-2009, 21:32
Lascannons are for transport plinking in this edition...luckily everyone seems to be bringing more transports so it all works out :)

I dunno. If its an armor 11 or less transport, an autocannon seems better (as it used to be). The autocannon gets two shots and penetrates 1/3 of the time and glances 1/6; the lascannon gets one shot and penetrates 2/3 of the time. Both do equally well on the damage chart when they penetrate, but the autocannon is cheaper and will (on average) score more glancing hits, the same number of penetrating hits, and can score two hits a turn if you get lucky.

Lascannons look to me like long range anti terminator and anti MC guns. Granted, they are also decent at popping transports, but if that's all you want them for, autocannons win out.

BobTheZombie
11-05-2009, 21:54
Lascannons? Luxury! My Zzap gun has only hit once since the beginning of the year, and rolled pitifully low for strength so it did nothing. I've had to resort to painting the little Grot gunner blue in the vain hope that it'll make it more lucky (it's on a Battlewagon so BS2 alas).

Gimp
11-05-2009, 22:00
Its something to do with the shape of GW dice. Dont ask me - but apparantly its so - if you use square sided dice it doesnt happen - but the gw rounded corner dice actually do favour rolling a 1.

There was a statistics professor here a long time ago that got his grad students to do an experiment.

They basicly rolled 100s of different dice and noted that the worst dice were GWs and the best dice were the ones in casinos.

Factors that influenced the dice where

1. If the dice are not see through then you cant see in manufacturing problems in the dice.

2. If they have curved corners

3. If the numbers are "pitted" into the dice

Of course GW dice are not see through, have curved corners and are pitted

On the other hand casino dice are see thorugh, have sharp corners and the numbers are printed and not pitted on the dice

djinn8
11-05-2009, 22:02
Lascannons are awsome at taking down Obliterators, Ogryns and other such multiwound critters. For Monstrous Creatures I'd rather take a weapon with weight of fire: Autocannon, Multilaser; Heavy Bolter; etc...

Blinder
11-05-2009, 22:17
It depends on if it has a regular save or an invul- MC's like a Carnifex will last a LOT longer to things like AC's and Multilasers because while they'll get hit more often, each hit has a lower chance to wound and each wound will have as little as a 1-in-6 chance of counting, whereas with a lascannon you'll almost always wound on at least a 3 and the wound will always count (unless it has a good regular *and* an invul, but even then the invul is usually a couple points worse than the regular). Generally you can't field enough extras of the other weapons to make up for the AP2 on the lascannon.

If the target is just an invulnerable save, it's completely different, but not all MC's are like that and you still have a better chance of wounding (2+ on an avatar with a lascannon rather than 5+ with a heavy bolter) so they usually aren't much worse.

Against vehicles the biggest thing to hurt the lascannon isn't so much it's performance compared to previous editions, as the immense increase in performance of AP1 weaponry. So, while it's still potent, it has a lot more competition for the points.

cool0001
11-05-2009, 22:19
My dice like rolling ones for my lascannons :(

redbaron998
11-05-2009, 22:35
If you have fillited dice (ones where the marks have little indintions) you will actually roll more 1s than anything else, espically if they have rounded sides.

Casino dice are the most accurate.

blameless
11-05-2009, 22:39
I have one lascannon in my marine army and it has never ever performed well... I rely on my melta for tank killing and my lascannon just for fun...

decker_cky
11-05-2009, 22:39
Lascannons are awsome at taking down Obliterators, Ogryns and other such multiwound critters.

Not so much ogryns anymore. ;)

J-man
11-05-2009, 23:01
There was a statistics professor here a long time ago that got his grad students to do an experiment.

They basicly rolled 100s of different dice and noted that the worst dice were GWs and the best dice were the ones in casinos.

Factors that influenced the dice where

1. If the dice are not see through then you cant see in manufacturing problems in the dice.

2. If they have curved corners

3. If the numbers are "pitted" into the dice

Of course GW dice are not see through, have curved corners and are pitted

On the other hand casino dice are see thorugh, have sharp corners and the numbers are printed and not pitted on the dice

This makes sense. A friend I often game with, over the course of a six-game campaign, managed to immobilise his hellhound on turn one every game. The thing that makes this really crazy is it had a dozer blade. The odds of failing two dangerous terrain tests in a row is 1/36. The odds of doing that six times in a row is 1/36^6, or one in about 70 million.

We also have a running joke about Blameless's lascannon-toting marine being off his face drunk. Always 1s or 2s to hit, if he manages to hit then it's 1s or 2s on armour pen, without fail. I think I'm gonna get me some new dice! Chessex looks good...

eek107
11-05-2009, 23:20
My policy is to always double (or triple) up on Lascannons. It works just fine. As an IG player you learn how important redundancy is.

Lion El Jason
12-05-2009, 00:42
There was a statistics professor here a long time ago that got his grad students to do an experiment.

They basicly rolled 100s of different dice and noted that the worst dice were GWs and the best dice were the ones in casinos.

Factors that influenced the dice where

1. If the dice are not see through then you cant see in manufacturing problems in the dice.

2. If they have curved corners

3. If the numbers are "pitted" into the dice

Of course GW dice are not see through, have curved corners and are pitted

On the other hand casino dice are see thorugh, have sharp corners and the numbers are printed and not pitted on the dice

Gw dice (Like all dice that you will get other than official casino dice) are moulded, just like plastic models, they come on sprues and theres an imperfection where the sprue meets the dice, just like on models. These are the problems you mention.

Curved corners come about because they polish the dice excessivly in whats basically a washing machine filled with sand.

"Pitted" numbers are also pretty much standard on non-casino dice. the pits are half filled with paint thats twice the density of the plastic.

The three things you mention have ZERO noticeable effect on the numbers produced. The only thing remotely relevant is the rounded corners but then only in combination with the main factor: the die shape is off.


If you have fillited dice (ones where the marks have little indintions) you will actually roll more 1s than anything else, espically if they have rounded sides.

Casino dice are the most accurate.

This is simply not true, the indents in the dice to denote numbers have little effect.


Chessex looks good...

Just so you know their manufacturing system is identical to the company GW uses.



The main influence on the bias of a die produced to be fair is the shape. When the plastic is in the mould, its obviously liquid. It cools and solidifies and as it does so naturally contracts.
This produces dice that are mis-shapen.
Basically imagine a die with the '4' side smaller than the '3' side, 1,2,5 and 6 are all then trapezium shaped. Obviously the die will roll a '4' more than any other number.
This is where the rounded corners come in. The effect is lessened if the corners are pointed because pointed corners rob much more kinetic energy from the dice as they roll. this makes them much more likely to stop on any given side after a set number of rotations.
Rounded corners rob less energy meaning the dice are more likely to stop on a larger side facing down.
In addition to this many moulded dice are broadly egg shaped (Oblate spheroids) then with added faces to make them cuboid when cube dice should be broadly proper spheres with faces added to make them cubes. The fact that the die wants to end on the face where its centre of mass is lowest combined with the different sized faces means the shape influences the roll more than anything else.


As a comparison, Casino Dice are not moulded, they are machined and come in tolerances correct to 1/5000" in the US and 1/10000" elsewhere. The pips are designed to have close to zero effect on the centre of mass by painting the dots with different paint that weighs different amounts.


Finally and seriously this is a stone cold, hard fact:
There is no way anybodys' game has ever had any of these factors influence it in any significant way unless one of the following is true:
Your opponent insisted on using the same die for all his rolls rolling everything one at a time.
Your opponent used dice visibly mis-shapen.
Your opponent used actually loded dice

all else is luck and falls quite predictably into the bell curve.

Hellebore
12-05-2009, 01:53
The changes to the glance and pen charts hurt the lascannon more than any other weapon. The same changes turned 5th edition into Warhammer: Meltaweapons!

It hurt the brightlance too.

S8 Lance is worse than S9 most of the time:

AV14 Lance is better (reduced to 12 S8 vs 12 = 4+ glance; S9 vs 14 = 5+ glance)
AV13 Both equal (reduce to 12 S8 vs 12 = 4+ glance; S9 vs 13 = 4+ glance)
AV12 lascannon better (reduce to 12 S8 vs 12 = 4+ glance; S9 vs 12 = 3+ glance)
AV11 Lascannon better (S8 vs 11 = 3+ glance; S9 vs 13 = 2+ glance)
AV10 lascannon better (reduce to 10 S8 vs 10 = 2+ glance; S9 vs 10 = 1+ glance)

Oh, and the brightlance is wielded exclusively by BS3 models. Marines get BS4 lascannons and guard get BS3 (although can take FAR FAR more of them). It can move and fire, but even then it's effective range is 36"+6"=42" whilst a static lascannon will still be able to hit things further away even if the brightlance moved. And with the pseudo-true LOS rules, very few things can hide, making a moving brightlance far less important.

Hellebore

Axis
12-05-2009, 03:04
Minor correction: wraithlords can hold Bright lances and are BS4.

My observation is that lascannons are still really good but are so points expensive these days that very few people bother bringing more than one or two. With only one lascannon you are vulnerable to bad luck. As someone mentioned earlier take 2-3 in a squad and you are smoking.

101st Vostroyan
12-05-2009, 03:23
It always seems to roll a 1...always. Maybe cus it's 1 shot and you are so dependent on the roll that you roll a 1.:eek:

101st Vostroyan
12-05-2009, 03:28
I seem to roll 1's with lascannons alot. It is mainly because you put all your eggs in one basket and depend on it too much. Also, there are less times you roll for lascannons so you notice the ones more.

kultz
12-05-2009, 04:19
The problem is that people seems to view lascannons as some sort of 'superweapon'. Folks expect it to 'punch through armour' and 'annihilate stuff', when statistically it is just a slightly better krak missile when used on vehicles.

Nobody expects a single str8 shot to take out battle tanks, why should you expect a single strength point extra to be that different?
It's got no magical rules to ignore cover, no extra armour penetration dice, no super-duper add to damage rules, no template, and a single shot.


At the end of the day, it's a glorified missile launcher, use it in volleys.

destroyerlord
12-05-2009, 04:46
2. If they have curved corners
I much prefer rounded corners. Why? On a gaming table dice like to roll around into annoying places, especially onto the floor. This results in people sort of 'dropping' this dice (in a clear space usually, in such a way that dice dont stray off the table). With square cornered dice, this means they don't roll.
I actually tried it out in a game once using square sided dice, I would look at what face was up on the table, and pick the 5s and 6s. When I dropped them, I got lots of 5s and 6s. I tried the opposite to make sure, picking up a lots of 1s and 2s. Sure enough, all my shots missed. Since then I refuse to use square sided dice (at least the type we were using there).
Casinos are a bit different, for one, they can loose a lot of money if someone finds out they are using biased dice, and when playing craps (I think thats the game), the dice are thrown to ensure what I was talking about doesn't happen.

On topic, I've never had any problems with lascannons in my CSM army. I have two, and they perform admirably, killing light vehicles quickly but usually spending most of the game killing one marine a turn, as most of my opponents don't use a lot of MC/AV13+ vehicles.

IrishDelinquent
12-05-2009, 04:53
I have always found that my most reliable anti-tank weapons are Krak missiles. Meltaguns roll snake-eyes at half range and lascannons fail to damage Rhinos, but my Krak missiles seem to destroy whatever they're aimed at.

Jackmojo
12-05-2009, 05:09
I dunno. If its an armor 11 or less transport, an autocannon seems better (as it used to be). The autocannon gets two shots and penetrates 1/3 of the time and glances 1/6; the lascannon gets one shot and penetrates 2/3 of the time. Both do equally well on the damage chart when they penetrate, but the autocannon is cheaper and will (on average) score more glancing hits, the same number of penetrating hits, and can score two hits a turn if you get lucky.

Lascannons look to me like long range anti terminator and anti MC guns. Granted, they are also decent at popping transports, but if that's all you want them for, autocannons win out.

True, I had my Space Marine hat on, only a few things with autocannons vs lascannons in that list...

Jack

Xandros
12-05-2009, 07:16
In my gaming group, twin-linked lascannons are considered the most inaccurate weapon there is. I guess that's because they're supposed to have a high accuracy.

laudarkul
12-05-2009, 07:17
Till now I always had a ATHWS with 3xLC. And I'm still going to use it. It's perfect for AT job and usually I shoot good with them (in one game I have to admit I just miss a lot; something like 3shotsx3 turn=9 shots; I just miss 7:cries: and). 3 LC are always good for my Guard army.

nightgant98c
13-05-2009, 23:00
In my experience, lascannons only do poorly when you really need them to do well. Shoot an IG squad with one. It'll always hit, and wound. Against a tank or tough commander who you want to instakill, and they fizzle.

Snotteef
14-05-2009, 00:14
It hurt the brightlance too.

S8 Lance is worse than S9 most of the time:

AV14 Lance is better (reduced to 12 S8 vs 12 = 4+ glance; S9 vs 14 = 5+ glance)
AV13 Both equal (reduce to 12 S8 vs 12 = 4+ glance; S9 vs 13 = 4+ glance)
AV12 lascannon better (reduce to 12 S8 vs 12 = 4+ glance; S9 vs 12 = 3+ glance)
AV11 Lascannon better (S8 vs 11 = 3+ glance; S9 vs 13 = 2+ glance)
AV10 lascannon better (reduce to 10 S8 vs 10 = 2+ glance; S9 vs 10 = 1+ glance)

Oh, and the brightlance is wielded exclusively by BS3 models. Marines get BS4 lascannons and guard get BS3 (although can take FAR FAR more of them). It can move and fire, but even then it's effective range is 36"+6"=42" whilst a static lascannon will still be able to hit things further away even if the brightlance moved. And with the pseudo-true LOS rules, very few things can hide, making a moving brightlance far less important.

Hellebore

Lance weapons are generally garbage. You are technically correct that bright lances are generally wielded by BS3 models (the best kind of correct Hermes :p), but Dark Lances are identical in EVERY way except for the name and they are wielded exclusively by BS4 models, so I'd say it balances out there. That, however, doesn't stop Lance from being a bloated, worthless rule; S9 would have been better.

Da_Killa
14-05-2009, 12:03
yes my multi-meltas can hit but cant seem to get the ap rolls

Giganthrax
14-05-2009, 12:38
Lascannons are awesome. Their 48" range is what makes them extremely useful. At AP2, they ignore all armor saves, and at str 9 they insta-kill most humanoids.

Cool things I did with my lascannons, that I couldn't have done with my meltas (or at least it would've been MUCH riskier);

- killing close combat specialized monstrous creatures before they get half way across the table
- owning nidzilla
- sniping obliterators hiding in cover at the other side of the table
- sniping mob bikerz
- effectively destroying vehicles (particularly transports and normally immobile stuff like whirlwinds, shooty predators etc.) on the other side of the table

Even if you don't destroy something with a lascannon, even getting an immobilized or weapon destroyed result can literally make the vehicle pretty much useless for the rest of the battle. For example, shooting off the battle cannon from that defiler, or immobilizing a close combat dreadnought, is apt to end up being the same as if you just wrecked them.

Lascannons definitely have their place. They can't be compared with meltas - they're utilized in different ways and specialized to do different stuff.

Fay_Redd
14-05-2009, 12:58
well i dont really use Las-canonns, but i am a firm believer in the "miss-ile launcher" I will miss atleast once, but i do have about 8 krak missiles firing a turn in my SM army so really it's all good. theres also Melta "hairdryer syndrome" where they might wound easily they barely ever hit.

Vaktathi
14-05-2009, 13:00
Just wondering whether anyone else has ever noticed just how poor lascannons seem to perform? It's not a rule thing but purely luck of the dice thing. No matter many of these things my gaming group fires, and it's a lot, they always seem to be really accurate but hit with nothing more powerful than a wet sponge...

Has anyone else suffered from one of the most powerful heavy weapons in the game hitting like a water pistol?

Lascannons are excellent weapons, just not as powerful as they were in 4th, primarily against heavy armor. They still work great for killing medium vehicles, hard infantry, MC's, etc.

AV14 is now one of the toughest things to deal with, and lascannons, while once somewhat potent against them, have lost a lot of their hitting power due to the new damage chart. This makes long range static shooting less effective against Land Raiders and Leman Russ tanks, meaning Meltaguns are far more in demand now than they were previously.

Captain Micha
14-05-2009, 13:21
Lascannons are infact terrible. Ever since the chart changed they stopped being an AT weapon vs heavy armor. Thank god.

That being said.. I love them for popping termies and MCs. Which is more appropriate to what it's task is meant for.

Finally the Melta weapons have a use.

Lamoron
14-05-2009, 13:23
I guess it all depends... my old ATHWS never did anything, but the 3x TL LC on the Vendetta pops armor almost every round.

danny-d-b
14-05-2009, 15:14
I now never bring lascannons, this editon I sat there changing my metal weapon dev squad lascannons to plama cannons , and use them once and fount terminators did everything better

my pred annilater (1 of my fav tanks last edition) I put on the table, then worked out how much it costed (with 3 lascannons) and put it back

as for my land raider- I not sure where it went, I'm always brining my crusader to the table now

AngryAngel
14-05-2009, 15:33
Lascannons are fine, you just need alot of them to be promised any real results. Yeah meltas are good, but I still appreciate the range offerd by the lascannon for the ability to reach out and touch the enemy.

As a side note on lascannons in relation to marine dev squads. The bs 5 shot with the signum, does anyone else always roll 5's or 6's to hit with it ? That shot is never the one that rolls a 2, I find it odd.

brgerkng
15-05-2009, 00:43
I find lascannons are best for taking out light vehicles and high toughness/low save models and being able to do it at range. If I want something to reliably take out anything heavier, like predators or land raiders, I'll take multi-meltas (conveniently mounted on attack bikes) any day of the week. Over the last 2 months I've faced 5 land raiders with my space marine list, and I know its a small sample size and thus luck is a factor. 4 of them were gone on the 2nd turn, and the other on the 3rd turn.

TheOTHERmaninblack
15-05-2009, 01:20
I've mostly stopped even taking lascannons. It isn't that I only pay attention to the misses, it's more that I pay attention to the pens/glances because they're so unusual. I can't seem to miss my to hit rolls, but I can't seem to pen or even glance anything over AV10 reliably. No matter how many lascannons I fire on a given turn. Of course, I also have a tendency to fry my plasgunners (roll 1 to hit, 2 for armor save, dead marine) shot one turn one with great reliability as well. Dice hate me, it seems.