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Naxx-ramas
12-05-2009, 14:11
Hi, I've a strange question for you...
Are generic flyers forced to fly only on a straight line during their movement?
Is there any way to split the 20'' in smaller segments in order to follow a particular path "over" multiple units on the battlefield in the same way as the Screamers do?
For example: can i move a unit of Terradons in the same way as the Screamers and over multiple targets?
or
Can i Split the 20'' movement in 2+ smaller segments and pass over unit X from south to north with the first 10'' and then again from north to south with the last 10'' (clearly the rocks are dropped only once) returning to the starting point?

The rulebook says: "Flyers never need to wheel or turn, but can always make their move in a direct line or stop to pivot at any point during their move"...

Thanks!

danny-d-b
12-05-2009, 14:25
Hi, I've a strange question for you...
Are generic flyers forced to fly only on a straight line during their movement?
Is there any way to split the 20'' in smaller segments in order to follow a particular path "over" multiple units on the battlefield in the same way as the Screamers do?
For example: can i move a unit of Terradons in the same way as the Screamers and over multiple targets?
or
Can i Split the 20'' movement in 2+ smaller segments and pass over unit X from south to north with the first 10'' and then again from north to south with the last 10'' (clearly the rocks are dropped only once) returning to the starting point?

The rulebook says: "Flyers never need to wheel or turn, but can always make their move in a direct line or stop to pivot at any point during their move"...

Thanks!


well the rulebook thing you quoted answerd your own questions, your flting unit can fly 20 in any direction (I think it says that screamers may fly in a zig zag some where!)

Naxx-ramas
12-05-2009, 14:47
Yes but the point of controversy is:
can a generic flying unit (like terradons) start moving in one direction for 10'' (example) then "stop to pivot at any point during their move" (like the book says) to change the flight direction for the next 4'' of movement, then "stop to pivot at any point during their move" again for the last 6''?
In my opinion the answer is YES, but since someone says NO i'm asking additional opinions.

Atrahasis
12-05-2009, 14:52
Erm, what else would "stop to pivot at any point in their move" mean?

Naxx-ramas
12-05-2009, 14:59
For some players that phrase means that if you "stop to pivot at any point during their move" you have to finish your movement in that place, so generic flyers can only move on a staight line without the option of choosing a zig zag path over enemy units...

Atrahasis
12-05-2009, 15:02
If that was the case, then it wouldn't be "during their move".

Rupposed
12-05-2009, 15:55
I assume this is to hit multiple targets with slashing attacks/drop rocks. I'm also assuming both rules say you can target only one unit, but that is an assumption. So why the zig zagging?

Atrahasis
12-05-2009, 16:10
Screamers can hit multiple units; terradons can only hit one.

Terradons might still want to change direction though, for example if a straight line path would leave them vulnerable to a charge, but a 2-step path would not.

They can change direction, but note that when flying units stop, they land, and to change direction they stop. No changing direction over other units or impassable terrain.

Naxx-ramas
12-05-2009, 16:25
This move is intended to move the Terradons, drop the rocks and return to the starting point (assuming they have enough movement) in order to avoid fire or to keep them out of sight from a certain enemy unit.

Atrahasis
12-05-2009, 16:31
Provided you can move, drop the rocks, land, and move back, it's fine.

jaxom
12-05-2009, 17:56
What you want is perfectly legal, Naxx. In fact, the Terradons are probably the best bait-unit in the game for this very reason. You can fly up and drop rocks on a screening unit and then fly back and bait. Makes playing Frenzied units against Lizardmen very dangerous.

I think the logic has been covered pretty well thus far. The rules you quoted make it clear that they can pivot and then continue moving. This includes flying past a unit, turning around and flying back to where they began. The key point in Atrahasis answer is that you must actually clear the unit you want to drop rocks on so that you can land to pivot. No measuring just to the top of the front rank and then turning around.

Daleran
12-05-2009, 18:13
where is it stated a flyer must land in order to change direction during its move? I don't believe I've ever read that, and I hope its not in the book as it is the dumbest sounding illogical bit of nonsense I've heard in awhile. (although that hasn't ever stopped GW from making a rule before)

Atrahasis
12-05-2009, 18:58
The rule has already been quoted in thread - flyers may stop and pivot at any point in their move. When flyers stop, they land.

tarrasque
13-05-2009, 00:52
no it is said they start an Finnish there movement face on the ground not that they stop and land in between

xragg
13-05-2009, 04:17
I dont see anywhere in the moving flyers section that stopping equals landing. The BRB states that flyers begin and end their movement on the ground, thats it. The BRB later states that flyers can stop at any point during the movement, not just the start and end. I am curoius where you support that stopping equals landing?

Naxx-ramas
13-05-2009, 08:32
I think that the stop = land approximation was made to avoid measurement problems if you have to take them from "over a unit" instead of direcly from the model's base.

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 09:22
When flyers "stop and pivot", what are they stopping? If stopping does not mean landing, then what does it mean?

Also, the rules for fanatics equate stopping with landing.

Avian
13-05-2009, 10:15
When flyers "stop and pivot", what are they stopping?
Their horizontal movement?


If stopping does not mean landing, then what does it mean?
Hovering?


Also, the rules for fanatics equate stopping with landing.
It's an additional note, it says nothing about it equating the two and it might just as well be "stop + land" and not "stop / land".

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 10:27
How does hovering then pivoting differ from pivoting on the move?

Avian
13-05-2009, 11:27
It gives the player an opportunity to measure how far you moved before going on.

I would guess that the "stop-pivot" mention is to break the move into a series of linear moves, which makes it easier to measure than if the model would just move along a curve or a series of curves.

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 11:38
A curve is no different to a series of linear moves with very small moves and pivots.

Chariots and non-flying single models don't have to "stop and pivot", they just pivot.

Why single out flyers unless there is actually a difference?

Avian
13-05-2009, 12:09
Because there is a difference in how they move, perhaps? :p

You (or at least: most players) lift flyers up and place them down where they want to go while any other unit is pushed along the ground. This can end up being quite inaccurate for anything other than direct fly moves, especially since they are so long. Thus to make it clear where a flyer goes in cases where it is not just the start and end point that matters it is advantageous to do it in a series of 'pivot-move-stop-measure-repeat'.

Meanwhile it is not problematic for a unit that uses ground movement since you will easily see exactly where it is moving.

As you said a curve can be seen as a series of small moves and pivots, but unless you actually stop and measure these moves as you go, it is very hard to determine exactly how long the curve is. You could use one of those little wheel thingies that measure distance as you roll them, but I haven't seen anyone using anything of the sort in Warhammer.

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 12:20
I certainly do not move chariots by sliding them along the table, and I can't remember the last time I saw someone do so. Single models are almost invariably lifted and placed.

This is moot however, since it's ridiculous to contend that the rules differentiate between flyers and non-flyers based on how we physically move the models. The rules describe a process; how we follow that process is up to us. I could use tongs or a robotic arm to move my models.

Naxx-ramas
13-05-2009, 12:37
Imo the "stop and pivot" rule is just an approximation to avoid discussions between players about distances and measurements, if you decide to move in a specific direction for X'' you have to complete the first segment before moving again and you have to physically move the model just to make clear his actual position.
So "stop to pivot" doesn't mean that the unit physically stops and land before changing direction (it would make no sense), but that a curve is approximated with segments and you have to take measures step by step in order to let the opponent check your moves

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 12:41
So why do chariots and non-flying monsters not have to stop and pivot? Why are they simply allowed to pivot?

Avian
13-05-2009, 12:52
I explained that in post #22. :p

You may not like the explanation, but you are the one interpreting the sentence:

"The flyer starts off on the ground, takes off, flies to where it wishes to go and then lands."

to mean:

"The flyer starts off on the ground, takes off, flies a bit, lands, takes off again, flies some more, lands again, takes off again, flies to where it wishes to go and then lands a final time."



And you are also the one that interprets the sentence:

"In Warhammer, flight is represented by a long swoop or glide of up to 20"."

to mean:

"In Warhammer, flight is represented by one or more swoops or glides of up to 20" in total."




So why do chariots and non-flying monsters not have to stop and pivot? Why are they simply allowed to pivot?
Well, have you tried stopping and pivoting instead of just pivoting and see if it makes any difference? I'm having trouble seeing what it would consist of. :p

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 13:11
You didn't explain anything, you excused the use of different language by introducing reference to the mechanical act of moving models, which the rules don't concern themselves with at any other time.

You take "flies to where it wishes to go and lands" to mean:

"Flies to somewhere it doesn't wish to go, then flies to where it actually wants to go, and lands"

The second sentence you employ in an attempt to make my argument look absurd is also compatible with my position, simply by excluding the pivot from "flight". A flyer mave move 10", land and pivot, then move another 10", without violating the description of flight as a swoop or glide of up to 20". The initial 10" is flight, the subsequent 10" is flight.
How long does a swoop or glide have to be? Is a flyer forbidden from flying 1"? 2"?

Avian
13-05-2009, 13:50
Your interpretation assumes that two out of the three sentences in the previous paragraph are, at best, quite inaccurate. Moreover, it doesn't explain why, if they did mean 'land' when they say 'stop' in the sentence at hand, they didn't just write 'land'.

I can see where you are coming from, but your interpretation assumes that too many things are too unprecise for it to be likely correct.




You didn't explain anything, you excused the use of different language by introducing reference to the mechanical act of moving models, which the rules don't concern themselves with at any other time.
Maybe they didn't consider it necessary any other time. Compare your question of why a chariot doesn't have to stop and pivot instead of just pivoting - it would be a pretty meaningless rule to give them. Flyers move further and their movement path is frequently less clear than for ground units, that is enough reason to use more precise language.



You take "flies to where it wishes to go and lands" to mean:

"Flies to somewhere it doesn't wish to go, then flies to where it actually wants to go, and lands"
No, it isn't. If a flyer does not fly in a straight line, it is probably because it wants to go over the places that lie beyond the direct line, for example to make slashing attacks at them.



A flyer mave move 10", land and pivot, then move another 10", without violating the description of flight as a swoop or glide of up to 20".
Well, yes, it would violate that description. If you have one flight and then another flight, you have two flights and not a flight.

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 13:59
Maybe they didn't consider it necessary any other time. Compare your question of why a chariot doesn't have to stop and pivot instead of just pivoting - it would be a pretty meaningless rule to give them. Flyers move further and their movement path is frequently less clear than for ground units, that is enough reason to use more precise language.What about non-flying monsters? A Fiend of Slaanesh moves exactly as far as a flyer, but is not required to stop to pivot.


No, it isn't. If a flyer does not fly in a straight line, it is probably because it wants to go over the places that lie beyond the direct line, for example to make slashing attacks at them.So it has flown to where it wants to go and not landed?
The sentence you're putting so much emphasis on doesn't say "flies to several places it wants to go, and lands", it says "flies to where it wants to go, and lands".




Well, yes, it would violate that description. If you have one flight and then another flight, you have two flights and not a flight.Please point out where the rule refers to "a flight". It is describing the concept of flight, and not an instance of it.

Avian
13-05-2009, 14:09
Gladly:

"In Warhammer, flight is represented by a long swoop or glide of up to 20"."

Note use of 'a'.

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 14:19
That isn't referring to "a flight", its referring to "a long swoop or glide".

Nothing in the rules for flyers says that a flyer's move is limited to a single flight. If they were, then the fanatic rules would be required to give them permission for a second flight.

Consider:

"In Warhammer, wheeling is represented by a pivot around the front corner of the unit, measuring the distance moved from the outside model."

That doesn't limit a unit to a single wheel, does it?

EvC
13-05-2009, 15:34
Note the quantity attached to the statement: fliers certainly may not make more than one long swoop or glide of up to 20" in one turn. It's a flight, up to 20" in length. Flier rules are exceptional by their nature ;)

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 17:13
So what's the minimum swoop?

Flyers can't move after fanatics are released?

xragg
13-05-2009, 18:04
Flyers can't move after fanatics are released?

I know people that play that way. Since a flyer can only land once, at the end of its flight movement, they are done moving.

edit: And why would the fanatic rules state that flyers land, after it already stated that the unit must stop, if stopping is the same as landing for a flyer?

Atrahasis
13-05-2009, 18:33
Because the perennial question about flyers and fanatics has always been "Can fanatics hit flyers since they are flying?".

It's clarification, not a separate rule.

EvC
13-05-2009, 20:20
So what's the minimum swoop?

Nought point nought recurring followed by a 1 ;)

Flyers can move after fanatics are released because theere is an allowance to do so, isn't there?

Caine Mangakahia
13-05-2009, 20:48
I don't have the BRB on me atm but doesn't it say that a flying move is a single move in a straight line?

EvC
13-05-2009, 21:05
No, it says what the original poster quoted in the opening post ;)

Avian
13-05-2009, 21:06
No, that should have been obvious from the quotes above.


And the Fanatic rules state that the triggering unit can continue moving after the Fanatics have been resolved and make no exception for flyers.

Spirit
13-05-2009, 22:16
Heres a question then. Can a flying unit "pivot at any point" if it stops it's movement on an enemy unit?

Atrahasis
14-05-2009, 07:27
And the Fanatic rules state that the triggering unit can continue moving after the Fanatics have been resolved and make no exception for flyers.So a flying unit can have two "flights"?


Heres a question then. Can a flying unit "pivot at any point" if it stops it's movement on an enemy unit?That's exactly what we're discussing.

Avian
14-05-2009, 08:19
So a flying unit can have two "flights"?
When an army book states an exception to the main rulebook, you can have an exception to the main rulebook, yes. It happens quite often, in fact and rarely impresses many people.

For example, a Slann can have US 5 without people getting worked up about it or suggesting that perhaps other characters should also be US 5.

:p

Consistency should mainly be looked for within the section of the rulebook a particular sentence is in, and your interpretation is not consistent with the rest of the Flyers section.

Instead you have been trying to show consistency with the Fanatic rules (which have a lot of exceptions to the main rules) in the O&G army book, which seems rather optimistic to begin with and doesn't appear to be working either.


Again I can see where you are coming from, but your whole argument is that they wrote 'stop' when they meant 'land' without actually having anything that supports this idea. That is not to say that it couldn't happen that they meant something other than what they wrote, but nothing else in that section suggests they did and quite a few things suggest that they didn't.

Thus the most likely interpretation is that they didn't write 'land' because they didn't mean 'land'. That they used a different word is most likely because they meant a different action.

So unless you can support your theory that they wrote something other then what they meant with, well, anything, I suggest this topic is done and you accept that 'stop' does not equal 'land' when there is no statement that this is so.

Atrahasis
14-05-2009, 08:54
I could equally demand that you show that "stop" refers to the mechanical process of moving the model, which is never done for any other movement type.

Avian
14-05-2009, 09:11
I could equally demand that you show that "stop" refers to the mechanical process of moving the model, which is never done for any other movement type.
Heh! You could try, but it's not going to work. :p

As I said, you are the one trying to show* that they write one thing and mean something else. The burden of evidence is on you and so far you haven't produced anything beyond suggesting that they could just be very inconsistent in their wording of the rule.


* well, "show" is excessive, given that you haven't actually made any effort to show anything ;)

EvC
14-05-2009, 09:11
I'm going for option 3: when they say "stop", they mean "go out for a ciggie". PROVE ME WRONG!!!

Milgram
14-05-2009, 09:24
thanks atrhasis, you just made my day. :)

indeed no proof for a stop to equal landing.

Masque
14-05-2009, 09:34
The section on Maneuvering During A Charge on page page 59 also refers to stopping to pivot. This is in the Monsters section of the book.

tarrasque
14-05-2009, 10:14
i would play it like this:

say you want to fly your unit to a b and land in c (a b & c not in a straight line) and an enemy unit is standing at point b.

first maseur the distance to a and put the flying model(s) there.
than say to your opponent you want to fly to b and then to c.
masseur the distance to b agree whit enemy model the hover above.
masseur the distance to c and place the flying model(s) there.

this way this way you're sure that:
you do not move more then you can.
your opponent knows the exact path you took.
and imho keep as close to the raw as possible. you go in a strait line stop moving pivot and ignore thing where you can fly over like enemy units.

only thingis that maby you will have to say in advance that you are going to do it this wayeven before you move to point a that way everbody is happy i think and that is the most important rule after all.

Cats Laughing
14-05-2009, 19:57
I'm going for option 3: when they say "stop", they mean "go out for a ciggie". PROVE ME WRONG!!!

IIRC, Chambers (or was it Jervis) referred to this game as a 'beer and skittles' type game, so obviously, if you're going to stop for anything, it's to refill your pint... ;)