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Thud
12-05-2009, 18:43
Dreadlord w/ cold one, shield, sea dragon cloak, hydra blade, armour of living death (274)

Malus Darkblade (275)

CORE
5 Dark Riders incl. full command (120)

5 Dark Riders incl. full command (120)

6 Harpies (66)

10 Black Ark Corsairs incl. full command (125)

Dark Elf Assassin w/ additional hand weapon, manbane, rune of Khaine (146)

SPECIAL
6 Cold Ones incl full command, dread knight has ring of hotek (227)

5 Cold Ones incl full command, dread knight has null talisman (190)

5 Shades w/ additional hand weapon, Bloodshade (103)

RARE
War Hydra (175)

War Hydra (175)

1996


I'm thinking about dropping the second Hydra because I'm struggling to get the first one to fit together, and I've heard rumours that I might lose all my friends if I bring two.

Is there anything I've taken that seems useless? Anything I've left out that really should be there? I'm a complete n00b with these square bases, so any help is appreciated.

By the way, this is an all-comers list that will be used in casual play as well as in tournaments.

bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 19:01
Drop the full command on the DR, they only need musicians... drop the AHW and bloodshade on the shades, go full out or nothing... drop the null talisman on the CoK, give the unit without the master the standard of slaughter... what is the point in the corsairs? IF you take 2 hydras you will lose some friends.... just take 1 and 2 RBT's... apart from that i see no glaring wrongs... are trying to go for a cavalry force?

Thud
12-05-2009, 20:02
Drop the full command on the DR, they only need musicians... drop the AHW and bloodshade on the shades, go full out or nothing... drop the null talisman on the CoK, give the unit without the master the standard of slaughter... what is the point in the corsairs? IF you take 2 hydras you will lose some friends.... just take 1 and 2 RBT's... apart from that i see no glaring wrongs... are trying to go for a cavalry force?

The Corsairs are there for two reasons: 1. The reason I started Fantasy in the first place is that I got an amazing deal on a Spearhead box and they're in it, and 2. The models are awesome.

I'd really like to keep them for the second reason, is there a way I can re-equip them to fit better with my mounted theme? Handbows?

As for the dual Hydras, the more I think about it, the more I like it. I have enough friends that do not play Warhammer. And as a guy at the club says when playing tournaments; "I'm not here to make friends, I already have friends. I'm here to pwn!" :p

Now, if I drop the stuff you said (except the Hydra) and add the banner I have 63 points to spare. Get four more Harpies and divide them into two units of five each to take out cannons and whatnot and/or protect my flanks?

GraveGuard
12-05-2009, 20:04
Like has been said:
A Full command is not needed on a Fast Cav unit. A Musician is usually always a must have though.
Null talisman is okay but better when there are more than one as they stack.
Champions in scouting units are pointless, they serve no purpose.

Eulogy2
12-05-2009, 20:25
And as a guy at the club says when playing tournaments; "I'm not here to make friends, I already have friends. I'm here to pwn!" :p

those sound like the words of a guy who either:

A) doesnt really have any friends.
or
B) sucks at warhammer and compensates for his lack of skill with abusive lists.

if your new, and it sounds like you are, youll learn alot more from taking a balanced list and learning the ins and outs of your army. shoving 2 hydras in every list you can a mowing over people wont teach you anything, and should be quite boring in reality.

Thud
12-05-2009, 20:37
Like has been said:
A Full command is not needed on a Fast Cav unit. A Musician is usually always a must have though.

Sorry for being completely noobish, but why is this? Am I too stuck in the 40k mindset by thinking I'd charge some shooty-like guys and get some extra corpses by the Champions?



Null talisman is okay but better when there are more than one as they stack.

How about giving one to my Dreadlord as well and have him join that unit? As I have no magic of my own I'd like to neutralise as much as possible of the opponent's. Or am I being too paranoid here?


those sound like the words of a guy who either:

A) doesnt really have any friends.
or
B) sucks at warhammer and compensates for his lack of skill with abusive lists.

Actually, he's a great guy and a great player, and he always gets great sportsmanship scores in tournaments. The line is a bit of a running joke, but around here, at least in 40k, most people have armies that would be considered somewhat cheesy on Warseer.


if your new, and it sounds like you are,

I thought the thread title made that clear. ;)


youll learn alot more from taking a balanced list and learning the ins and outs of your army. shoving 2 hydras in every list you can a mowing over people wont teach you anything, and should be quite boring in reality.

Valid point. How about a third Cold One squad? I'm not very keen on the Bolt Throwers and I really love the Cold Ones.

ICEMANQ
12-05-2009, 20:49
Sorry for being completely noobish, but why is this? Am I too stuck in the 40k mindset by thinking I'd charge some shooty-like guys and get some extra corpses by the Champions?




How about giving one to my Dreadlord as well and have him join that unit? As I have no magic of my own I'd like to neutralise as much as possible of the opponent's. Or am I being too paranoid here?



Actually, he's a great guy and a great player, and he always gets great sportsmanship scores in tournaments. The line is a bit of a running joke, but around here, at least in 40k, most people have armies that would be considered somewhat cheesy on Warseer.



I thought the thread title made that clear. ;)



Valid point. How about a third Cold One squad? I'm not very keen on the Bolt Throwers and I really love the Cold Ones.

-Champions/command on fast cav are useless because: a)They are only there to march block and kill war machine crews/etc and b)Five riders and their horses WILL kill a war machine crew. You reroll strength four hits!

-You might want some dispell scrolls and such. You can't rely on the Ring of Hotek. Nurgle/Tzeentch magic spam (buboes and flickering fire) will ruin you.

Pretty cool list. Two units of CoK and two hydras barrelling down the table at you! Hotek will save them from the big stuff but not the nasty small stuff like I mentioned. Buboes spam can instantly take out the Hotek champion and flickering fire has fairly evil potential.



-Bolt throwers are awesome. They can kill terror causing flying lords, knights, and take ranks off infantry. Two units of CoK is fine.

Draconian77
12-05-2009, 21:09
Dreadlord w/ cold one, shield, sea dragon cloak, hydra blade, armour of living death (274)

You will find that your characters are much more helpful with high Str attacks rather than lots of medium Str attacks, look into the Crimson Death or maybe a Lance with the Potion of Strength as back up. The Pendant of Khaeleth is a fantastic defensive item, you should go try it out. Very like the Dark Eldar Shadowfield from 40k but it doesn't go "poof".

Malus Darkblade (275)

Awesome. Not a cheesy SC at all. Here is a nice little trick. Put the Banner of Hag Graef on a Cold One unit and march them in front of some heavy cavalry. Your opponent will grab the chance to charge you, confident of an easy victory! Malus drinks his potion, you strike first because of the banner and now the enemy heavy cavalry is almost certainly DOOMED!

CORE
5 Dark Riders incl. full command (120)

5 Dark Riders incl. full command (120)

As stated by the others you really don't need the Champions or the Standards.
The standards will give your opponent an extra 100Vps if he runs them down so your cheap sacrificial unit gives away double Vps! The Champion just doesnt add enough to make paying the pts for him worth it. If you are attacking archers or war machine crew they will get the job done.

6 Harpies (66)

10 Black Ark Corsairs incl. full command (125)

Considering that they are only 10 men strong I wouldn't give them FC either, maybe just Handbows and use them to screen your Cold One Knights or guard your flanks.

Dark Elf Assassin w/ additional hand weapon, manbane, rune of Khaine (146)

Hmm, an Assassin. Now I'm re-thinking things. With this Assassin even 10 Corsairs could be nasty, maybe give the Corsairs the Banner of Murder to boost both their and the Assassins damage potential?

SPECIAL

6 Cold Ones incl full command, dread knight has ring of hotek (227)

5 Cold Ones incl full command, dread knight has null talisman (190)

1 Null Talisman isn't exactly glorious, but its not exactly expensive either. Keep it if you have the pts I say. I would try the Hag Graef trick though and maybe put the Warbanner on the other unit.

5 Shades w/ additional hand weapon, Bloodshade (103)

You probably wont need the Bloodshade or the AHW's. Sadly WH has pretty much "power-crept" to the point where a few S3 attacks just don't give you any sort of return.

RARE
War Hydra (175)

War Hydra (175)

I don't see any problem with this, if your opponents have a problem with this maybe re-consider for the sake of their enjoyment but other armies have things just as broken or undercosted, they just don't admit it. xD

1996




I remember you!
Most of my advice is in the quote, the only thing that I would add is that if you aren't taking any magic then a Level 1 Sorceress with 2 Dispel Scrolls is pretty much an auto-include. Magic in WH can be absolutely game breaking if you don't have enough anti-magic.

bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 22:46
I suggest fitting in a scroll caddy some where....

PeeKay
13-05-2009, 12:36
Agree with what has been said and also do you need the Harpies and the Dark riders? They sort of do the same role. Both are great but do you need both? Could give you the extra points for scroll caddy.

As for the second Hydra, you want to be the person that everyone wants the play, not the person that they avoid. I understand that the DE rare choices are limited and the army style you are going for doesn't fit bolt throwers but I think you need to bite the bolt (bullet, pun!?!)

Draconian77
13-05-2009, 13:54
Ok, he is going to run twin Hydras, but think of all the things he isn't running!

~Dragon
~Heavy Magic(No Lv4 with Dagger+PS's or Lv4 on a Dragon with FF)
~Shade Spam
~Assassins with Manbane/Stars Spam
~Bolt Throwers
~Black Guard with ASF
~20 odd Xbowmen filling up his Core
~Not even running 4 characters!

As far as I can the list has a lot of concessions, I just can't see people calling it cheesy.

If they do, well then I really do think that they are just kidding themselves, you aren't going to see many fairer DE lists!

Thud
13-05-2009, 14:10
I've been playing around with the list a bit, and here's how it looks now:

LORDS
Dreadlord w/ cold one, shield, sea dragon cloak, great weapon, armour of living death, pendant of khaeleth (280) - General

HEROES
Malus Darkblade (275)

CORE
5 Dark Riders incl. musician (92)

5 Dark Riders incl. musician (92)

5 Dark Riders incl. musician (92)

SPECIAL
6 Cold Ones incl full command, dread knight has ring of hotek (227)

5 Cold Ones incl full command, Standard of Hag Graef, dread knight has null talisman (225)

10 Shades (160)
-Dark Elf Assassin w/ additional hand weapon, manbane, rune of Khaine (146)

RARE
War Hydra (175)

War Hydra (175)

1939


How does that look? And what do I do with the remaining 61 points?

Draconian77
13-05-2009, 16:31
Are you aware that a Great Weapon only gives +1 Str bonus whilst the Hero is mounted but still requires two hands to use? Either the Crimson Death(S6) or a Lance/Sword of Might(S6 on the charge+shield, S5 all the time+shield) would probably be more useful.

The Armour of Living Death is not a useful piece of equipment. Read on;

Due to the nature of WHFB's CR system the only defenses worth having on a character are things that prevent of deflect wounds. Having an extra wound won't help you if you end up getting run down or suffer a Killing Blow!

My gut still tells me to shove a scroll caddy in there. Unfortunately for a DE player that costs us 150pts...

I think drop a Shade and use your remaining points to buy Harpies.

bob_the_small
13-05-2009, 17:38
Drop the null talisman! CoK dont need the ASK banner either...

Thud
13-05-2009, 17:55
Are you aware that a Great Weapon only gives +1 Str bonus whilst the Hero is mounted but still requires two hands to use? Either the Crimson Death(S6) or a Lance/Sword of Might(S6 on the charge+shield, S5 all the time+shield) would probably be more useful.

The Armour of Living Death is not a useful piece of equipment. Read on;

Due to the nature of WHFB's CR system the only defenses worth having on a character are things that prevent of deflect wounds. Having an extra wound won't help you if you end up getting run down or suffer a Killing Blow!

My gut still tells me to shove a scroll caddy in there. Unfortunately for a DE player that costs us 150pts...

I think drop a Shade and use your remaining points to buy Harpies.

So how about giving the Dreadlord Sword of Might and a regular heavy armour instead of the magic armour and the great weapon?

That would leave me with 97 points. Only 53 points away from a scroll caddy now! Drop the sixth Cold One and two Shades and I'm there. Sound like a plan?


Drop the null talisman! CoK dont need the ASK banner either...

I don't really have anything better to spend the fifteen points from the null talisman on, so I might as well keep it, or...?

By ASK Banner I assume you mean Standard of Hag Graef (though, how that abbreviation came about, I do not know) but the thought of pulling off the trick Draconian mentioned earlier is just so right up my alley that I can't really pass it off. :)

bob_the_small
13-05-2009, 18:01
You can drop the armour of living death and give your lord the armour of eternal servitude...

Draconian77
13-05-2009, 18:22
You don't need the Regeneration on top of the Pendant, just Heavy Armour, Shield, Cold One, Sea Dragon Cloak and Sword of Might should do fine. If you really want to beef up the Dreadlord the Potion of Strength is nice for when you come up against heavily armoured Knights or T5+ creatures. Could even drop the Shield, slap on the Crimson Death and just rely on the Pendant to keep you safe. Works for me.

Its ASF for "Always Strikes First" and the trick is pure gold, keep it in.
(No ego there at all...)

Dropping the 2 Shades and the 6th Cold One for a Caddy sounds fine, re-post the list when you have the time and I'll just give it one more look over.

ICEMANQ
13-05-2009, 20:52
So how about giving the Dreadlord Sword of Might and a regular heavy armour instead of the magic armour and the great weapon?

That would leave me with 97 points. Only 53 points away from a scroll caddy now! Drop the sixth Cold One and two Shades and I'm there. Sound like a plan?



I don't really have anything better to spend the fifteen points from the null talisman on, so I might as well keep it, or...?

By ASK Banner I assume you mean Standard of Hag Graef (though, how that abbreviation came about, I do not know) but the thought of pulling off the trick Draconian mentioned earlier is just so right up my alley that I can't really pass it off. :)

The ASF banner/Malus trick will never work, you'll never find someone that stupid:p But if you do, well, awesome!

Drop ASF banner and a cold one and that should get you a scroll caddy.

Draconian77
13-05-2009, 22:27
The ASF banner/Malus trick will never work, you'll never find someone that stupid:p But if you do, well, awesome!




Heh, maybe but in my experience...its easy. Especially in tournament play against opponents that you haven't played before.

You can play it up quite a bit, you can pretend to be moving them out of an enemy units arc but mess it up on purpose for instance. Lots of different ways to trick people into thinking that you made a mistake. :D

More than that though, Malus Darkblades weakness is that for a DE hero he is actually very frail. (T3 3+ save 2 wounds) Having ASF migitates this weakness considerably.

When you have a relatively frail 275pt model with outstanding offensive capabilites making sure that he swings his sword is top priority.

Devari
14-05-2009, 07:30
I'm thinking about dropping the second Hydra because I'm struggling to get the first one to fit together, and I've heard rumours that I might lose all my friends if I bring two.

Hydras are great (and somewhat undercosted) but they suit the Dark Elf theme perfectly. If you want to bring two then I'd say go right ahead. They’ll take up both of your rare slots in a 2000 point game so it means you won’t be able to field any bolt throwers (and you mentioned that you didn’t plan on using bolt throwers anyways so you might as well use hydras instead). I routinely use tanks or large monsters in my armies just because they make the game more fun so when I field models such as hydras that happen to be really effective I just figure it makes up for all the times my tanks and monsters underperformed.

For example, I used a marine Land Raider regularly in 3rd edition 40K because it was fun to use even though it wasn't really worth its points. That didn't really matter because I still wanted an awesome tank for my marines to ride around in so I used it regardless. Then when I started a Tau army and saw how good Hammerhead gunships are I started fielding two Hammerheads in my lists because they were so effective (railguns with submunitions are awesome against absolutely everything). Since it sounds like you're a 40K player it might help to think of hydras as being similar to the fantasy equivalent of Tau hammerheads. They're very effective and well worth the points but that just means that your opponents need to make them a priority when considering their tactics.

Or to put this in words a Druchii would appreciate, if the lesser races can't stand against the war hydras the Dark Elves bring to battle then perhaps they should consider throwing themselves at Malekith's feet and begging for mercy. :)

Thud
14-05-2009, 13:17
Dropping the 2 Shades and the 6th Cold One for a Caddy sounds fine, re-post the list when you have the time and I'll just give it one more look over.

Here it is, and I even managed to cram in another null talisman.

LORDS
Dreadlord w/ cold one, shield, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, sword of might, pendant of khaeleth, null talisman (250) - General

HEROES
Malus Darkblade (275)

Sorceress w/ 2 dispel scrolls (150)

CORE
5 Dark Riders incl. musician (92)

5 Dark Riders incl. musician (92)

5 Dark Riders incl. musician (92)

SPECIAL
5 Cold Ones incl full command, Standard of Hag Graef, dread knight has ring of hotek (235)

5 Cold Ones incl full command, dread knight has null talisman (190)

8 Shades (128)
-Dark Elf Assassin w/ additional hand weapon, manbane, rune of Khaine (146)

RARE
War Hydra (175)

War Hydra (175)

2,000 points on the dot.

Malus goes with the ASF unit, the Dreadlord with the other to give them magic resistance 2. The Sorceress hides from anything even resembling enemy forces and the rest is gravy. How about it?

Draconian77
14-05-2009, 14:29
Sounds fine and dandy but I think either you're making a mistake or I am when it comes to the Null Talismans.

I thought that Null Talismans stacked only when on the same model, if you have two models with Magic Resistance 1 in a single unit I'm pretty sure that they just use the highest value, in this case, 1.

Also, aren't Null Talismans "Talismans", meaning that you cannot have the Dreadlord equipped with both the NT and the Pendant. (Each Hero can only have a single selection from each of the different magic categories(Enchanted Items, Talismans, Magic Weapons and Magic Armour) and only spellcasters can take Arcane Items.)

There are a few exceptions like Dispel Scrolls(more than 1), Power Stones(more than 1) and Null Talismans(more than 1 on a single Hero and as many as you like in the list).


This isn't a serious problem if the Null Talisman doesn't stack in the first place. So for a final adjustment drop the Dreadlords Null Talisman and give the Shades Great Weapons.

That might put you 1pt over, if your group or yourself are fussy about those sort of things drop the musician from one unit of Dark Riders and mark them for an honourable death re-directing something...

Then proceed to butcher the enemies of Malekith, etc, etc, etc

bob_the_small
14-05-2009, 17:33
that will actually leave him 5 points under...

Draconian77
14-05-2009, 18:03
that will actually leave him 5 points under...

I don't see your point...

In some groups its better to be 5 points under than 1 point over.

:cries:

bob_the_small
14-05-2009, 18:22
I don't see your point...

In some groups its better to be 5 points under than 1 point over.

:cries:

there is no point... im just correcting your maths....

Draconian77
14-05-2009, 19:07
there is no point... im just correcting your maths....

Correcting my math?

How so?

Where did I make a mistake?

bob_the_small
14-05-2009, 19:28
Correcting my math?

How so?

Where did I make a mistake?

You said he'd be 1 point over when he really is 5 pts under...

Punk_in_Drublic
14-05-2009, 19:53
Ok Brotherman, we gotta talk dark elves next time we meet.

First of all, I'd like to bash you over the head for building a list to include a special character, but I understand that is the girlyman approach you have down at the club ;) (I'd take a bsb with hydrabanner instead)

The guys are right, you cannot have more than one talisman, unless it is a stacking of null talismans on the same character. Read the downloadable faq on the Delfs, it's highly recommended.

I like the combo on your dreadlord, but I also like the hydrasword + pot of str combo.

Look into the assassin combo with manbane and rending stars for some chariot busing power. with the shades, you have some shooting power going for ya. I'd try to tweak the list to include a unit of 5 harpies and give rxb's to the dark riders. I'm not sure what you'd want to drop whilst still keeping with the theme though. I'd also drop one unit of dark riders to get a unit of 10 rxb warriors that can camp in a house or an edge of a wood to get some shooting power.

The two warhydras are awesome.

Later,

-Punk

Thud
14-05-2009, 21:11
Sounds fine and dandy but I think either you're making a mistake or I am when it comes to the Null Talismans.

I had 15 points left and though "goody, I'll get my Lord a Null Talisman" but since posting my list I've read the FAQ and learned that this is both illegal and redundant, so I'll be dropping it.


First of all, I'd like to bash you over the head for building a list to include a special character, but I understand that is the girlyman approach you have down at the club ;) (I'd take a bsb with hydrabanner instead)

Pah! I scoff at your whinyness! *scoffs*

What is tempting, though, is to drop Malus for either a third unit of Cold Ones or a regular hero type fellow. This would have the added benefit that I'd get the points for a small unit of Harpies.


Look into the assassin combo with manbane and rending stars for some chariot busing power.

You know, I had completely forgotten about that S7=Chariot death business. That sounds pretty awesome actually.


I'd try to tweak the list to include a unit of 5 harpies and give rxb's to the dark riders. I'm not sure what you'd want to drop whilst still keeping with the theme though.

Dropping Malus, yeah. Happy now? I hope you're happy! I'm buying a Dragon just to field it against you!


I'd also drop one unit of dark riders to get a unit of 10 rxb warriors that can camp in a house or an edge of a wood to get some shooting power.

Infantry models? Heresy! :p

bob_the_small
14-05-2009, 21:21
YES! 3 units of CoK and Malus! KACHING!

Punk_in_Drublic
14-05-2009, 21:27
All mounted, eh? EH? I'd love to own against this list, but you need to up it to 2250 pts. Because everybody knows that 2250 IS the new black. (Incidentally, my own list includes a black dragon:))

About the assassin, with some luck, he'll put a dent in a greater daemon, he'll shoot some chaos knights off the saddle. For fun, for an additional list, you could include 2 mounted lvl 2's (one with the lifetaker and one with the tome of furion) and give the assassin the steed of shadows cloak. the army plays differently with just some character swaps.

Have you consiered lowering the model count of the shades and give them great weapons? Or even additional hand weapons? A flank charge with them, combined with a CoK unit in the front is tasty.

For taking out warmachines, or just keeping them busy for a crucial turn or two, DO take a unit of 5 harpies.

Laters,

-Punk

Punk_in_Drublic
14-05-2009, 21:28
I had 15 points left and though "goody, I'll get my Lord a Null Talisman" but since posting my list I've read the FAQ and learned that this is both illegal and redundant, so I'll be dropping it.

Give him an enchanted shield instead.

Thud
14-05-2009, 22:57
All mounted, eh? EH? I'd love to own against this list, but you need to up it to 2250 pts.

Bring it, sister!



Because everybody knows that 2250 IS the new black.

What? There's only one new black, damnit!


(Incidentally, my own list includes a black dragon:))

You cheesy git!


About the assassin, with some luck, he'll put a dent in a greater daemon, he'll shoot some chaos knights off the saddle. For fun, for an additional list, you could include 2 mounted lvl 2's (one with the lifetaker and one with the tome of furion) and give the assassin the steed of shadows cloak. the army plays differently with just some character swaps.

Intriguing. I'll be looking forward to experimenting eventually.


Have you consiered lowering the model count of the shades and give them great weapons? Or even additional hand weapons? A flank charge with them, combined with a CoK unit in the front is tasty.

I'll keep it in mind when I'm avoiding reading for my exam.


For taking out warmachines, or just keeping them busy for a crucial turn or two, DO take a unit of 5 harpies.

Roger that, homie.

Draconian77
15-05-2009, 00:27
You said he'd be 1 point over when he really is 5 pts under...

He was at 2000pts...

I said drop the Null Talisman(-15 = 1985)

Add Gw's to the Shades(+16 = 2001)

1pt over.

I only stipulated that he would be one point over if he didn't drop a single musician. Sorry to get uptight about this but it is really annoying when someone tells me that I'm getting my math wrong when I'm not.

(The above paragraph could also just have stated "Indignant Internet Rage!")

The whole point that I was trying to make was that in a normal game being 1pt over probably won't sever any of your friendships...whereas in a pick up game or a tournament dropping the Musician is the easiest way to bring yourself below 2k again.

Now for some advice; Don't equip the Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbows.
It is a heinous waste of points when Harpies are so cheap and they are just not worth it in general.

Running numbers on them only makes them seem less impressive.

Punk_in_Drublic
15-05-2009, 14:11
Now for some advice; Don't equip the Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbows.
It is a heinous waste of points when Harpies are so cheap and they are just not worth it in general.

Running numbers on them only makes them seem less impressive.

Here me and you have to agree to disagree. I usually give my riders crossbows. Because taking a trooper of the backrank before charging them head on with your heavy hitters can make the combat swing in your favour. They pour out 10 shots per unit. I like to whittle down units, threaten free roaming characters etc etc.

Later,

-Punk

ICEMANQ
15-05-2009, 20:39
Its alot of points though and against armies like Chaos its pointless. Maybe 4/5 hits, 2 wounds, 2+ armour saves?

It's never really done anything for me. Harpies can do the same thing at a stretch. 6 Harpies charge the back rank of say an empire infantry block. They throw out 12 attacks!

Draconian77
16-05-2009, 03:08
Its alot of points though and against armies like Chaos its pointless. Maybe 4/5 hits, 2 wounds, 2+ armour saves?



Worse than that I'm afraid, assuming moving and multi-shot penalties, 3.33 hits doing 1.11 wounds to Chaos Warrior who then has a 50% chance of saving if he has a Shield.

I think there are easier and ways to strip away rank bonuses, mainly charging a unit in the flank/rear. Something Dark Riders are very good at.

ICEMANQ
16-05-2009, 05:30
Indeed, rear/flank charging is good. As long as the chargee isn't too buff. If they are the riders are just free CR for them.

Punk_in_Drublic
16-05-2009, 10:09
Indeed, rear/flank charging is good. As long as the chargee isn't too buff. If they are the riders are just free CR for them.

Exactly. I like to have the option of using my DR in multible roles at the same time. They can marchblock something or set up for a bait while shooting the one guy off the backrank of something else. I seldom commit my dark riders to combat, unless I'm pretty sure they are gonna win, or if to sacrify them for a possible greater advantage later on.

In my opinion 3 units of Dark riders with spears are redundant. If I took that many, I' d take them with rxb for 30 shots a turn. Mathhammer is not really that interesting, because they will probably not earn back the 4 pts a piece crossbows, you pay for the tactical freedom and the possible threat the present.

Later,

-Punk

Draconian77
16-05-2009, 14:39
In my opinion 3 units of Dark riders with spears are redundant. If I took that many, I' d take them with rxb for 30 shots a turn. Mathhammer is not really that interesting, because they will probably not earn back the 4 pts a piece crossbows, you pay for the tactical freedom and the possible threat the present.

Later,

-Punk

I do somewhat agree that mathhammer doesn' take all factors into account, all I would say is that my point of view, at least for now, is that you gain more by having the points spent elsewhere. As a happy compromise you could always equip a single unit with xBows.

bob_the_small
16-05-2009, 16:38
Well, if you want an all cavalry army.... you kinda need Dark riders....

Draconian77
16-05-2009, 23:05
Well I mean...he's taking a Hydra, its not going to be "all cavalry" by any defination. :p

Punk_in_Drublic
17-05-2009, 01:31
according to your plan A. He should equip all his dark riders with rxb*s. Come ON! 30 shots per turn?

Later,

-Punk