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moar barmu
12-05-2009, 22:05
Im still very new to this game, but it seems to me that some army lists have better choices for common formatiosn than others. Some, like Mordor have poor qualtiy core troops (for the msot part) but lots of choice and versatility. Dwarves's core troops are the opposite- not too much diversity but loads of quality. Elves have a mixture of both, but are pretty expensive in points. Yet, reliability is not aobut msot powerful units so much as those units that are worth their points game in and game out. Which are the three most relaible core formations in the game in your opinion and which of the nine factiosn has the msot reliable troops on average. Below I provide my tentative answers ( I'm still leranign the game):
1. Dwarf Warriors (with shields)- Defense 8 on basic troops seems awesome to me. Strength 4, Fight 4, courage 5 (with Captain) and with access to shieldbearer, they seem abotu as reliable as a common unit could be.
2. High Elf Cohorts (with shields)- seems similar to me as the dwarves; a little less durable but pretty relaible and having Terror too.
3. Urukhai Warriors (with shields)- Not quite as relaible as the other two, but really quite solid.

Faction with most reliable common troops: Dwarves- even their Archers can take damage and keep on coming. Thats pretty reliable. They also have two-handed weapon users with good defense, complementing the other two main configuartions well. Even their light troops, Dwarf Rangers, are good.

Lord Asuryan
12-05-2009, 22:19
easterling cohort with pikes and shields. hands down.

Nu Fenix
12-05-2009, 23:39
I concur with Lord Asuryan, though I am biased towards the Fallen Realms.
We are the only army which has figured out how to fight with a Pike whilst carrying a shield.
We are the only the only army ro re-roll 1's when shooting, and one of two armies that can do it in combat. [Haradrim and varieties of them]
We have the cheapest Strength 4 infantry to carry a two-handed weapon. Five points less than Mordor Uruk-hai and fifteen less then Dwarf Warriors. [Khandish Mercenaries]
We have the cheapest Fight 7 hero, fifteen points less then a High Elf Captain, the only other Common Captain with Fight 7. [Dragon Knight for Easterlings]
We have a Hero who can cause automatic Hits in combat against the enemy, regardless of their Defence or lack of their own Hero. [Hasharin for Haradrim/Serpent Guard]

I would not put High Elf Cohort on your list, since they are Rare and not Common ;)

I am suprised that all three of your choices were infantry, and didn't include cavalry. Royal Guard from Rohan and Knights of Dol Amroth are strong contenders, due to their abilities, statline and equipment.

Flinch
13-05-2009, 00:29
I reckon the most reliable common formation is...

The humble Moria Goblin.

They are cheap. They die quickly. The can't pass a command check.

... oh.. you're talking about performing reliable WELL...

Nevermind.

SJBenoist
13-05-2009, 04:28
Actually, the Goblins are, for my money, by far the best point-for-point formation.

Master Pathfinder, Mob, & Prowler make a terribly powerful 15 point company when deployed in force.

Edit: Forgot to mention the drums!

Jorgen_CAB
13-05-2009, 12:11
Actually, the Goblins are, for my money, by far the best point-for-point formation.

Master Pathfinder, Mob, & Prowler make a terribly powerful 15 point company when deployed in force.

Edit: Forgot to mention the drums!
Add basic movement of eight to that as well...

I would say that Axemen of Lossarnach are up there with the top. You get to choose between using 2H-weapons or pikes in the fight phase, defense five, Fight four and only 25p. Must be the best all round troops in the game for it's cost.

Nu Fenix
13-05-2009, 12:50
Except Axemen of Lossarnach aren't Common Jorgen, which is against the intent of this thread, as it is to discuss Common formations.

Granted, they are a very good Rare formation due to their versatility. If only they were plastic...

Jorgen_CAB
13-05-2009, 13:47
Ok, I missed that part... :o

Then I would suggest simple Warrior of Minas Tirith, Defense of 5(7) and no direct weaknesses for 25p is a good bargain. You get a formation of six for only 150p. That is a very good and powerful basic formation. If you also consider their heavy cavalry at a cost of 30p for defense 5(6) and lances as a combination with the infantry and you have an extremely good combination of troops. And last but not least heavy archers with basic defence 5 for 30p. In my opinion even better than Easterlings due to the cheap cost and only one lower Fight value.

xxRavenxx
13-05-2009, 21:07
Moranon orcs are my pick for best troop. Cheap, strong, and good special rules.

I think something else to think on is what you can do with said units too. Moria has the best troops in my opinion, not only because they're cheap and solide, but because ringwraiths can get involved and turn them into strength 6 "flying" beatsticks.

Quannum
13-05-2009, 23:31
Ok, I missed that part... :o

Then I would suggest simple Warrior of Minas Tirith, Defense of 5(7) and no direct weaknesses for 25p is a good bargain. You get a formation of six for only 150p. That is a very good and powerful basic formation. If you also consider their heavy cavalry at a cost of 30p for defense 5(6) and lances as a combination with the infantry and you have an extremely good combination of troops. And last but not least heavy archers with basic defence 5 for 30p. In my opinion even better than Easterlings due to the cheap cost and only one lower Fight value.

Agreed.

Q

Lupinbell
18-05-2009, 16:55
easterling cohort with pikes and shields. hands down.

Add in a dragon Knight and you get a unit that can take on most Common formations in the game, very nice. :D

xxRavenxx
18-05-2009, 20:32
ENTS! I mean, really...

Those 10 point hobbits with bows are win too :P 500 points of those vs the balrog :)

Angelust
18-05-2009, 20:40
Ents aren't common, are they?

Reinholt
18-05-2009, 21:02
Ents are in the Fallen Kingdoms, so technically cannot be the mainstay of any army, so I'd think they might not fit quite as well here.

For my part, I would say:

1 - The most reliable unit would not be cavalry, as cavalry is very positionally dependent and is terrible if charged. Thus, it's a finesse unit, and not reliable in all situations.

2 - The best unit would need to have high defense, otherwise there are situations in which it would simply be demolished.

3 - The best unit would need to have a strong all-around stat line, so that it would not be particularly vulnerable to any one thing.

4 - Not be overly costly, or with unreliable special rules.

Thus, my nominations would be:

1 - Minas Tirith Warriors
2 - Dwarf Warrior Kinbands
3 - Uruk-Hai of most varieties
4 - Easterling Pikemen

They all bring something to the table that is very consistent, and I think which one you would want depends on the composition of the rest of your army.

xxRavenxx
18-05-2009, 21:14
Not the mainstay?

Theyre common, and can be 25% of your armies points. It would be very easy to make a list with nothing but ents in its common slots. You probably wouldnt, because having some normal men is handy, but it does not in any way stop them being the "most reliable" common formation.

SJBenoist
18-05-2009, 22:05
I think most are missing the sheer numbers cheap formations can deploy.

If the point cost is sufficiently low, the unit can absorb casualties and inflict more damage in return than a more expensive unit with a higher defense due to strength of numbers, in addition to flanking.

Goblins are priced about 2:1 or better for every unit mentioned so far (I think, I'm not checking all of them) and they are as fast as the fastest troops mentioned ... and Master Pathfinders! This means they will flank you, letting their Prowler kick in and subtracting your dice at the same time.
They will have more dice supporting (because of the lower cost), and get double the normal amount of support dice on top of that because of Mob.

This means a full 9 company formation costs just 135 points, and with a frontage of just 3 (and you charging them) still rolls 36 dice!

Figure you have to kill 2:1 or better just to draw even on points ... and I just don't see how any unit, common or otherwise, is nearly as efficient. I wasn't joking when I said I thought they were broken. The sole limitation I have seen is number of models owned ... you would need to buy A LOT of goblins.


Note: I don't play Goblins, but I faced the buggers a few times. Combine them with the 70 point Goblin King and it is unpleasant :(

Reinholt
21-05-2009, 20:54
This means a full 9 company formation costs just 135 points, and with a frontage of just 3 (and you charging them) still rolls 36 dice!

36 dice, though, is not necessarily enough to win a combat. A unit that large is vulnerable to flanking, and likewise, cavalry still charge much further than they do. It's not that hard to get 4+ bases of cavalry in contact with them on a charge, and the 32+ incoming dice from the cavalry that go off before the goblins could be very bad, especially if a flank charge is involved.

This is not to say Goblins are bad; I like them, they are cheap, and they are able to come in huge groups. But keep in mind they can also be killed in huge groups.

You get what you pay for.

;)

SJBenoist
21-05-2009, 21:38
36 dice, though, is not necessarily enough to win a combat. A unit that large is vulnerable to flanking, and likewise, cavalry still charge much further than they do. It's not that hard to get 4+ bases of cavalry in contact with them on a charge, and the 32+ incoming dice from the cavalry that go off before the goblins could be very bad, especially if a flank charge is involved.

This is not to say Goblins are bad; I like them, they are cheap, and they are able to come in huge groups. But keep in mind they can also be killed in huge groups.

You get what you pay for.

;)

I think you miss my point. It doesn't make sense to compare units unless we compare them at the same points.


At 135 points, the Goblins will have a second formation at 9 companies for every unit mentioned here so far.
It is the Goblins that will be doing the flanking, and they will do it better than any unit mentioned ... by far thanks to a combination of Prowler, Mob, Pathfinder, Move of 8, and sheer numbers.

Which of the units mentioned at 9 companies is superior to 2 - 9 company Goblin formations? ;)

SJBenoist
21-05-2009, 22:00
A further example;

4 Companies Rider of Rohan (120 points)

4 Companies Goblins (60 Points)
4 Companies Goblins (60 Points)

Riders charge with a full frontage of 4, getting 32 dice, at strength 3 versus defense 3, and expect 16 casualties (30 points worth).

Goblins counter with 16 dice, at 3 strength versus defense 4, and expect ~ 5 hits for 2 casualties (30 points worth) [Though ~16% we expect 6 hits for 3 casualties and 45 points]. Giving Rohan the tactical advantage and twice as many points … and they are statistically inferior to the Goblins.


Now take an even number of points.

If the Goblins fail to flank ...the second formation has a frontage 2 with 2 ranks. That's 20 more dice, strength 3 versus defense 4, expecting ~6 hits [the occasional 7th hit is irrelevant] for 3 casualties (45 points).

This means, on average, being charged by Riders of Rohan and failing to flank despite 2:1 numbers, 120 points of Goblins will lose 30 points and inflict 75 points [though 1/6th the time we expect the Goblins to inflict 90 points].

Over 2:1 in effectiveness.

I know Rohan can shoot, but 4 units are not going to average 16 casualties per round :D (what they need to pull almost even)

Note: Even if you put all 8 companies into one formation ... and give the cavalry a earth shaking rear charge, roll a 6 for max bonus dice ... the Goblins still win statistically. The are just too cheap.

Jorgen_CAB
21-05-2009, 22:09
I do agree that Goblins are really good for their cost, but in my opinion some cheap high defence troops are in my opinion better overall. Morannon Orcs and Minas Tirith Warriors are two examples. In a frontal assault both these formation will have a kill ratio of 3:1 and only cost 25p vs 15p so you get five companies of Morannon vs eight companies of goblins. I would say that it is more likely they are fighting against each others fronts than flanks.
You also need to calculate in the chances that you fail the panic test and are reduced to one dice as a result. The Goblins will most likely loose and have a rellatively high chance of failing thier courage test.
So, mathematically (if you calculate probabillity into the picture) cheap and high defence troops are better as allround troops. They are better at claiming terrain and objectives, such as defensible terrain as well as destroying enemy troops and survive.

Reinholt
21-05-2009, 22:32
That is not at all a wise comparison.

Here is why:

1 - The Rohan Eoreds can shoot on the way in. So first, you would have to factor in their shooting, and then the charge, thanks to expert rider.

2 - If you are using cavalry in such a way that you get charged, you're a fool. Poor playing is not part of unit comparisons any more than my claiming I could rear-charge the goblins and it is a "fair comparison".

3 - Cavalry has a much larger charge distance (6+d6) than goblins (2+d6). There are many situations where one would be able to set up 8.5" away and either charge the goblins without being able to be charged in return (ignoring spending large amounts of might), or fail to charge but be unable to be touched in return.

Thus, it's tricky to compare cavalry to infantry. In most situations, if the Rohan player is equally skilled, they should never get flanked and should be doing quite a bit of flanking themselves. So comparing cavalry to infantry is a real apples and oranges type problem, as you really need to find a way to simulate the greater maneuverability of the cavalry, and that is non-trivial.

On the other hand, compare goblins to Warriors of Minas Tirith or Uruk Hai Scouts or something, and it is much simpler, as the units have comparable speed. In that case, I suggest you find exactly what you would think - the goblins are equivalent.

As in the case of cavalry, I would suggest this is what you need to consider:

4 Companies of Riders of Rohan vs. 2 units of 4 companies of Goblins.

The Riders of Rohan should be able to flank charge the goblins without getting counter-charged, or avoid being charged entirely (if they don't have priority, let the goblins move and then use superior speed to get to a flank; if they do have priority, fall back and shoot instead of move up to charge).

So our combat would be:

4 * (8 + 2) = 40 attacks on the flank, wounding on 4's, meaning 20 dead goblins. Now the goblins are down to 12 guys before they retaliate.

The return would be 8 + 4 - 3 - 3 (assuming all are in base to base) for 6 whole return attacks... the picture is bad for the goblins.

So this is what I mean about cavalry. Positioning is EVERYTHING for them; cavalry is very powerful in the hands of a skilled maneuvering player, and terrible in the hands of someone who cannot maneuver them well. Thus, apples to apples is hard, but it's also why I would never claim a cav unit to be the most reliable. It comes down to player skill.

So I stand by my commentary on goblins - you get what you pay for. You don't get much, but you don't pay much, so large numbers can be useful. They aren't a game-breaking troop in terms of how good they are, but they can be solid in terms of how many you can get. They get a solid B as a troop from me.

SJBenoist
21-05-2009, 22:45
3:1? Lets take a look

Minas Tirith Warriors cost 25 points each so 3 companies for 75 points (~3.13 per man).
Goblins cost 15 each so 5 companies for 75 points (~1.88 per man).

Assuming everything goes the warriors way (highly unlikely since the Goblins have superior maneuverability) the Goblins are in a single formation and the warriors charge with a frontage of 3 and get 30 dice at strength 3 versus defense 3, expecting 15 casualties (28 points inflicted).

Theses are not cavalry, so the goblins hit back with 28 dice at strength 3 versus defense 7, expecting 4 casualties (about 13 points).[Note: 67% of the time the Goblins will inflict 5 casualties for 16 points inflicted]

It isn't even 2:1 and we've given every tactical advantage to the Warriors and ignored the Goblins superior ability to flank. Also, the higher the point totals the more the advantage shifts to the goblins (they get x2 support dice as the men).

The goblins look better to me.




Morannon Orcs cost 20 points each so 3 companies for 60 points (2.5 per man).
Goblins still at 15 points so 4 companies for 60 points (~1.88 per man).

Same deal as above (which is essentially everything in the Orcs favor).
Orcs roll the same 30 dice, and although they are strength 4 versus defense 3, they still expect 15 casualties (28 points).

The Goblins get their 28 dice at strength 3 versus defense 5, expecting 9 casualties (23 points) [16% will be 10 casualties for 25 points].

The Orcs are at 1:1 when everything goes their way meaning they lose statistically.

SJBenoist
21-05-2009, 23:00
That is not at all a wise comparison.

Here is why:

1 - The Rohan Eoreds can shoot on the way in. So first, you would have to factor in their shooting, and then the charge, thanks to expert rider.

2 - If you are using cavalry in such a way that you get charged, you're a fool. Poor playing is not part of unit comparisons any more than my claiming I could rear-charge the goblins and it is a "fair comparison".

3 - Cavalry has a much larger charge distance (6+d6) than goblins (2+d6). There are many situations where one would be able to set up 8.5" away and either charge the goblins without being able to be charged in return (ignoring spending large amounts of might), or fail to charge but be unable to be touched in return.

Thus, it's tricky to compare cavalry to infantry. In most situations, if the Rohan player is equally skilled, they should never get flanked and should be doing quite a bit of flanking themselves. So comparing cavalry to infantry is a real apples and oranges type problem, as you really need to find a way to simulate the greater maneuverability of the cavalry, and that is non-trivial.

On the other hand, compare goblins to Warriors of Minas Tirith or Uruk Hai Scouts or something, and it is much simpler, as the units have comparable speed. In that case, I suggest you find exactly what you would think - the goblins are equivalent.

As in the case of cavalry, I would suggest this is what you need to consider:

4 Companies of Riders of Rohan vs. 2 units of 4 companies of Goblins.

The Riders of Rohan should be able to flank charge the goblins without getting counter-charged, or avoid being charged entirely (if they don't have priority, let the goblins move and then use superior speed to get to a flank; if they do have priority, fall back and shoot instead of move up to charge).

So our combat would be:

4 * (8 + 2) = 40 attacks on the flank, wounding on 4's, meaning 20 dead goblins. Now the goblins are down to 12 guys before they retaliate.

The return would be 8 + 4 - 3 - 3 (assuming all are in base to base) for 6 whole return attacks... the picture is bad for the goblins.

So this is what I mean about cavalry. Positioning is EVERYTHING for them; cavalry is very powerful in the hands of a skilled maneuvering player, and terrible in the hands of someone who cannot maneuver them well. Thus, apples to apples is hard, but it's also why I would never claim a cav unit to be the most reliable. It comes down to player skill.

So I stand by my commentary on goblins - you get what you pay for. You don't get much, but you don't pay much, so large numbers can be useful. They aren't a game-breaking troop in terms of how good they are, but they can be solid in terms of how many you can get. They get a solid B as a troop from me.


1. I did account for the shooting. Please re-read my post.

2. I assumed the Cav charged, not the other way around. Again, please re-read.

3. Is irrelevant since I assumed the Cav charged first anyway.

Your example is an attempt to compare twice the points of Cav versus Goblins, and impossible besides. 4 stands of Cav cannot line up with four stands of infantry from the flank ... even if they stand single file. If you want single formation Vs. single formation you need to compare an equal number of points (unrealistic though that may be).

Your example requires all 8 companies to be in single line ... otherwise you won't have base contact with all four stands of Cav. Let's assume they do line up just like that for you (if we can agree this is an absurd situation you've proposed), and inflict 20 casualties ... the infantry will still have 5 full stands plus a half stand ... meaning 26 dice, ({8-3} *5) + (4-3). That's still more than 8 hits on average ... meaning that is still 4 casualties on average ... meaning you killed 38 points of Goblins and lost 60 points worth of horse.

It still a losing proposition.


Goblins are under-pointed. They would be under-pointed at 20 points per stand.


I am wondering how you charge a unit and not get counter-charged by any adjacent units though.

SJBenoist
21-05-2009, 23:07
I'm not trying to say anyone's favorite unit isn't awesome, or there is anything wrong with anyone's choices.

I'm saying "Goblins are broken".


Remember for all of my examples:

I haven't used any example of the Goblins getting to charge.

I haven't used any example of the Goblins flanking.

I have in no way credited Master Pathfinder.

I have not accounted for their superior Move score.

I have not accounted for using Prowler.

I've trimmed the points to the minimum (which hurts the Goblin's odds).

IMO, they likely should be twice the cost they are now.

Reinholt
22-05-2009, 04:14
1. I did account for the shooting. Please re-read my post.

I don't see it; where did you account for the fact that expert rider (or even skilled rider) cavalry can fall back and fire repeatedly in order to whittle down numbers before moving in, if so desired?


2. I assumed the Cav charged, not the other way around. Again, please re-read.

You assume the cavalry charged poorly, and then got counter-charged in one example (which would mean you charged first, so you should have seen the counter-charge coming, so you never should have charged in the first place!). It's just not realistic if someone positions well; I have yet to get cavalry flanked unintentionally in any game I have played with my Angmar army barring flying monsters or very lucky charges by other cavalry, and I use quite a bit of it between Ghostly riders and Warg riders.



Your example is an attempt to compare twice the points of Cav versus Goblins, and impossible besides. 4 stands of Cav cannot line up with four stands of infantry from the flank ... even if they stand single file. If you want single formation Vs. single formation you need to compare an equal number of points (unrealistic though that may be).

This is precisely the value of maneuverability!

If you break the units into two units, as you did, a faster foe can isolate and destroy you in many cases; if they are not doing this, they are not using half of what you are paying for with the points in cavalry, which is speed! Ignoring speed when comparing a unit that is faster to a unit that is slower is crazy. If you run the unit as a single giant unit, you cannot be isolated, but you can still do the math and find out that getting flanked will be a catastrophic even for the goblins.


Your example requires all 8 companies to be in single line ... otherwise you won't have base contact with all four stands of Cav.

This is flat out false. Listen, when you say things like this, it's hard to take your posts seriously. Have you played a game of WotR yet?

Here is how it looks:

Y
Y xxx
Y xxx
Y

The X's represent the infantry unit. The Y's represent the charging unit. The X's are three infantry, and the Y's are four cavalry bases. I have it on my floor in front of me right now. I can perfectly fit four companies of cavalry in base to base with three companies of infantry on a flank charge.

Remember - corners count! Look at the diagram on page 46. You are just flat out incorrect to say you cannot flank with four companies. Hell, you can flank a single company with two companies in base to base, guaranteed, because of how corners align.


I am wondering how you charge a unit and not get counter-charged by any adjacent units though.

By making sure I don't have priority. Again, this is pretty trivial. Priority works thus:

1 - Heroic Charges
2 - Player with priority charges
3 - Player without priority charges

If I have priority, and I'm going to get flanked, I just don't charge. If I don't have priority, he had to declare and roll all his charges before I charged in the first place, so how the heck is he going to counter-charge me when he had to counter-charge before I charged?

So in closing, I will say this:

I've played against goblins. I wiped them off the board every single time. The combination of low defense, low fight, and low strength does not have them under-pointed. They are fairly pointed, because they just aren't that strong.

Edit: Keep in mind losing combat matters a LOT; if the goblins fail to inflict more casualties and are disordered, they are in real trouble the next turn if they don't rally. Likewise, if someone is canny enough to declare a heroic fight on the way in (should they be likely to win), they can often wipe even that 9 company unit out in a single turn. Again, I'm not saying Goblins are not good; I think they are fairly pointed for what they do, and what they do is pretty decent. They are big, they can take hits, but a wise player can deliver serious sledgehammer blows to large units.

SJBenoist
22-05-2009, 04:54
I don't see it; where did you account for the fact that expert rider (or even skilled rider) cavalry can fall back and fire repeatedly in order to whittle down numbers before moving in, if so desired?

You assume the cavalry charged poorly, and then got counter-charged in one example (which would mean you charged first, so you should have seen the counter-charge coming, so you never should have charged in the first place!). It's just not realistic if someone positions well; I have yet to get cavalry flanked unintentionally in any game I have played with my Angmar army barring flying monsters or very lucky charges by other cavalry, and I use quite a bit of it between Ghostly riders and Warg riders.

This is precisely the value of maneuverability!

If you break the units into two units, as you did, a faster foe can isolate and destroy you in many cases; if they are not doing this, they are not using half of what you are paying for with the points in cavalry, which is speed! Ignoring speed when comparing a unit that is faster to a unit that is slower is crazy. If you run the unit as a single giant unit, you cannot be isolated, but you can still do the math and find out that getting flanked will be a catastrophic even for the goblins.

This is flat out false. Listen, when you say things like this, it's hard to take your posts seriously. Have you played a game of WotR yet?

Here is how it looks:

Y
Y xxx
Y xxx
Y

The X's represent the infantry unit. The Y's represent the charging unit. The X's are three infantry, and the Y's are four cavalry bases. I have it on my floor in front of me right now. I can perfectly fit four companies of cavalry in base to base with three companies of infantry on a flank charge.

Remember - corners count! Look at the diagram on page 46. You are just flat out incorrect to say you cannot flank with four companies. Hell, you can flank a single company with two companies in base to base, guaranteed, because of how corners align.

By making sure I don't have priority. Again, this is pretty trivial. Priority works thus:
rio
1 - Heroic Charges
2 - Player with priority charges
3 - Player without prity charges

If I have priority, and I'm going to get flanked, I just don't charge. If I don't have priority, he had to declare and roll all his charges before I charged in the first place, so how the heck is he going to counter-charge me when he had to counter-charge before I charged?

So in closing, I will say this:

I've played against goblins. I wiped them off the board every single time. The combination of low defense, low fight, and low strength does not have them under-pointed. They are fairly pointed, because they just aren't that strong.

Edit: Keep in mind losing combat matters a LOT; if the goblins fail to inflict more casualties and are disordered, they are in real trouble the next turn if they don't rally. Likewise, if someone is canny enough to declare a heroic fight on the way in (should they be likely to win), they can often wipe even that 9 company unit out in a single turn. Again, I'm not saying Goblins are not good; I think they are fairly pointed for what they do, and what they do is pretty decent. They are big, they can take hits, but a wise player can deliver serious sledgehammer blows to large units.

Your hostile attitude is unnecessary, if we agree or not.

Fall back repeatedly? How big of table are you using? Most games I've seen are 4', and your not doing a whole lot of falling back on that ... especially since you have to stick to open ground.

Also, none of your opponents use cover? Seriously? They just stand there in the open and let you shoot them repeatedly?

Now your example of the charge is still twice the points ... which you ignored ... and requires a degree of maneuverability you just don't have with 12" vs 8" movement. That 4" just isn't the game-dominating movement needed to fit your vision. (Your going to have to show me how you can approach from 90 degrees on a unguarded flank, particularly as Goblins have no problem covering a 6' table from edge to edge in all but the smallest games ... I'd like to take your word for it, but I just can't, see more below)

What's more, I've allowed you to pretend the battlefield is 100% open terrain for the cav to maneuver in, while in difficult terrain they (Goblins) actually are faster than you. (6" vs. 8").

What on earth does charge poorly mean? I assume you mean be counter-charged?

I'd like to see how you "ensure" you don't have priority.

You write as though you can solely dictate position of engagement (and it's apparently in open terrain where you somehow approach from a perfect 90 degree angle with no enemy near you) ...
It's funny you have a hard time taking my post seriously ... I was thinking the same thing about yours ;)

Seriously, your posts look like conjecture that hasn't been tested. I seen Rohan played weekly ... and I've yet to see anybody so immobile as to just stand there like you propose (never mind Goblins). In fact, it's damn hard for them to get a flank without either an anchor unit, or a heroic charge, from what I've seen.

Why don't we trade Rohan battle reports GW-style here on Warseer (with photos), so I can see how it's done? I should be able to compile one on Tuesday or Wednesday this week. I will have to proxy for Goblins, as I don't own any, but I should be able to gather enough figs together.

I'm willing to make a 'Sig bet you can't do what you claim without an utterly incompetent opponent. If your willing to prove your claims, let me know and we'll work out the details!

Reinholt
22-05-2009, 06:12
Your hostile attitude is unnecessary, if we agree or not.

I'm not being hostile; you'll know if you see me hostile!

I'm just surprised to be arguing and you don't seem to know the spearhead and positioning rules for lining up a charge yet. Undercuts your case dramatically, and I suggest it's quite rude to be coming on here and posting when you have core rules wrong and are thus presenting an unsound case.


Fall back repeatedly? How big of table are you using? Most games I've seen are 4', and your not doing a whole lot of falling back on that ... especially since you have to stick to open ground.

We play on a 4 x 6, and I usually have plenty of room to fall back, because if you want to come get me with slower units, you are going to run square into my own infantry, which the cavalry outpace most of the time (unless the Tainted throws WoT on them, but that's another story), and then get double-charged.


Also, none of your opponents use cover? Seriously? They just stand there in the open and let you shoot them repeatedly?

Given that I'm outpacing you, if you want to sit back pinned down behind cover the whole game to avoid cavalry, that's usually a win for me in most scenarios, barring perhaps Field of Swords, depending on what you hide with.


Now your example of the charge is still twice the points ... which you ignored ...

You specifically stated that you were splitting the Goblins into two units of four; that means I can isolate one. That's not ignoring, that's knowing how to maneuver. I'm not going to charge two goblin units at once if I don't have to!

Likewise, if you field them as one big unit and get flanked, the result is much the same: Over 40 attacks incoming vs. counter-attacks that will kill a handful of riders at best. This is actually an easier solution for 3x3 blocks of Goblins from a cavalry perspective; the two units mean only one flank is open if you have priority, as you can get counter charged on the other. A single unit reveals both flanks.


and requires a degree of maneuverability you just don't have with 12" vs 8" movement. That 4" just isn't the game-dominating movement needed to fit your vision.

It is when:

1 - You can at the double with a captain, because that doubles the disparity as well.

2 - If you go second, that is often all the distance you need to get to a flank, since I can move very close without you having a chance to move away.


What on earth does charge poorly mean? I assume you mean be counter-charged?

Charge poorly means you charge in where you know you are going to get counter-charged; it's usually a foolish or desperate tactical decision. I mean, answer me this - if I'm declaring charges first, and I know that charging one of your units face up would get me flanked by the other unit, would I ever charge it without some other compelling tactical reason?

No.


I'd like to see how you "ensure" you don't have priority.

I know at the start of the turn if I have priority or not; my actions are based on that. If I have it, I'm not going to set up for the charge, and I already know I have it. If I don't, then I am going to set it up.

So by ensure, I mean I know before I move if I have priority or not already; make sure you go second, then strike. Don't be a fool and try to do it when you go first.


Seriously, your posts look like conjecture that hasn't been tested.

I have yet to lose a game in WotR, actually, and I've played quite a few. You can ask a few other posters here about me (I'm sure Reiksguard would love to comment, and I haven't had a chance to play Dtjunkie yet, though he's got a hell of an Easterling army I want to throw down with). Most of the guys who play at the GW store in NYC know who I am. My playing record across multiple games stands up pretty well, to say the least.

I'm not talking theory, in short.

SJBenoist
22-05-2009, 07:14
So you accept, or not?

Tell you what, I'll do one even if you don't. Just to illustrate the cheese these are capable of (maybe you guys don't have anyone in your area that has actually fielded something like this).

1500 points, and I 'll keep the force Moria Goblin Warband only and the required Epic Hero for demonstration purposes (I'm going to have to proxy models and movement trays too, as I usually play elves).IIRC, about 5 full strength formations, 3 frontage, 3 ranks, side-by-side, cram a 6' table length-wise. Using the Wardrums in every unit and DurBurz in the center leaves 380 points, I don't know how I'll spend those yet. Maybe Captains in every formation, shields in a couple formations and a fate?

I don't want to discount you, but your claims radically differ from my own experience. Until you can demonstrate what you claim ... I'm going to have to believe my own eyes. We can keep going back and forth with "I can do this!", "No you can't, and here is why", so it's senseless to keep refuting point-by-point. (Like the priority theory being susceptible to Heroic charge, staying out of range risking you stalling or coming up short 33% of the time, Heroic moves, the ability to advance along a table edge, the ability to "pin" against difficult terrain, etc.)

I have no problem demonstrating (assuming our local Rohan player agrees to fight this monstrosity). Maybe our disagreements will look clearer on the table.

Kroot Lord
22-05-2009, 07:53
You shouldn't compare to a point on point basis. In Lord of the Rings, a 200 point Witch King on Fell Beast is not going to beat 50 Hobbit Archers. Aragorn, costing a mighty 250 points, is not going to beat 62 Hobbit Archers. Gandalf is not going to beat 3 bog standard Nazgul. However, Gandalf could beat the 3 Nazgul if he himself were supported by an army, as well as the Nazgul being supported by an army.

Jorgen_CAB
22-05-2009, 08:35
3:1? Lets take a look …

Minas Tirith Warriors cost 25 points each … so 3 companies for 75 points (~3.13 per man).
Goblins cost 15 each … so 5 companies for 75 points (~1.88 per man).

Assuming everything goes the warriors way (highly unlikely since the Goblins have superior maneuverability) the Goblins are in a single formation and the warriors charge with a frontage of 3 and get 30 dice at strength 3 versus defense 3, expecting 15 casualties (28 points inflicted).

Theses are not cavalry, so the goblins hit back with 28 dice at strength 3 versus defense 7, expecting 4 casualties (about 13 points).[Note: 67% of the time the Goblins will inflict 5 casualties for 16 points inflicted]

It isn't even 2:1 … and we've given every tactical advantage to the Warriors and ignored the Goblins superior ability to flank. Also, the higher the point totals the more the advantage shifts to the goblins (they get x2 support dice as the men).

The goblins look better to me.




Morannon Orcs cost 20 points each … so 3 companies for 60 points (2.5 per man).
Goblins still at 15 points … so 4 companies for 60 points (~1.88 per man).

Same deal as above (which is essentially everything in the Orcs favor).
Orcs roll the same 30 dice, and although they are strength 4 versus defense 3, they still expect 15 casualties (28 points).

The Goblins get their 28 dice at strength 3 versus defense 5, expecting 9 casualties (23 points) [16% will be 10 casualties for 25 points].

The Orcs are at 1:1 when everything goes their way … meaning they lose statistically.

In my opinion you fail to grasp how that game is played... first of all it is not that easy to flank someone in the game as you make it out to be. I know from experience (Pathfinder skill or not). You usually need smaller formation and even better if you have the ambush skill to pull it of or cavalry that can charge 6+D6 and with a high basic movement.

An Orc or Gondor player will be able to put enough infantry to cover all their flanks anyway, so there will be no flanks to attack, even through terrain.

Still, the Orcs (25p with shields) and Minas Tirith warriors will win the fight, you don't even understand that the Goblin needs to roll panic at the end of every turn where they have rather big chance of failing and then will only roll one dice in the next fight, that is a rather important factor.
They still kill 3:1 number of models and about twice the number of points in each round.

In response to the Rohan cavalry destroying them, you also need to factor in such things as the potential to get an earth chattering charge as well after each combat as well as the goblins failing their courage test the next turn. You must also assume that the riders will be able to shoot at the goblin formation for at least two or maybe three turns (with no captains involved) before they clash in combat.

Goblins are quite good, but not against everything. Backed up with the Goblin king and other formations they do become nasty indeed. But you really can't argue the way that you do.

SJBenoist
22-05-2009, 08:46
In my opinion you fail to grasp how that game is played... first of all it is not that easy to flank someone in the game as you make it out to be. I know from experience. Pathfinder skill or not. You usually need smaller formation and even better if you have the ambush skill to pull it of.

And Orc or Gondor player will be able to put enough infantry to cover all their flanks anyway, so there will be no flanks to attack, even through terrain.

Still, the Orcs (25p with shields) and Minas Tirith warriors will win the fight, you don't even understand that the Goblin needs to roll panic at the end of every turn where they have rather big chance of failing and then will only roll one dice in the next fight, that is a rather important factor.
They still kill 3:1 number of models and about twice the number of points in each round.

In response to the Rohan cavalry destroying them, you also need to factor in such things as the potential to get an earth chattering charge as well after each combat as well as the goblins failing their courage test the next turn. You must also assume that the riders will be able to shoot at the goblin formation for at least two or maybe three turns (with no captains involved) before they clash in combat.

Goblins are quite good, but not against everything. Backed up with the Goblin king and other formations they do become nasty indeed. But you really can't argue the way that you do.

Are you guys even reading my posts?
The examples above DO NOT RELY ON FLANKING. The odds listed count NO FLANK, and assume the opposing unit gets the charge.

Anyone else find it ironic I have one player telling me superior move is a guarantee he'll flank the Goblins at a 90 degree angle with no chance of counter-charge ... and another saying superior move isn't enough to flank other units at all?

For the record, I agree with Kroot Lord. WotR favors cheaper units over more expensive units.

My claim is that Goblins are terribly under-priced for their capabilities, and because of this will be more efficient point-for-point than any other unit.
I.e. they will take more of your points off the board than the Goblin player will lose, and typically by a large margin.

Also to be clear, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand :D


P.S. Incidentally, I do think Minas Tirath Warriors are the 2nd most efficient killers in the game, along with Mordor & Isenguard orcs. And anything else around 15 points ... WotR greatly favors cheap units ;)

Jorgen_CAB
22-05-2009, 10:09
Ok, I edited my post above before you replied to it... I did mention that flanking is a viable option but usually with more mobile and smaller formations, such as for example cavalry.

My experience with the game so far is that flanking happens in most games, but it is done by either ambushers, monsters or cavalry. And sometimes infantry if you have the tactical advantage or play against an inexperienced opponent.

What I say is that you can't assume Goblins to charge someone in the flank, doing so is very hard for an ordinary infantry unit, even Goblins. Most Ors and Gondor players have very few flanks to actually charge.

And I did not assume that anyone got the charge, I was neutral in that regard and assume that the chance would be equal for both sides.

Reinholt
22-05-2009, 14:48
Are you guys even reading my posts?
The examples above DO NOT RELY ON FLANKING. The odds listed count NO FLANK, and assume the opposing unit gets the charge.

Yes, I did read your post, and yes, you did talk about flanking a unit with goblins. We've all mentioned flanking repeatedly, and it is something you need to consider here.


Anyone else find it ironic I have one player telling me superior move is a guarantee he'll flank the Goblins at a 90 degree angle with no chance of counter-charge ... and another saying superior move isn't enough to flank other units at all?

Well, if you want to take things totally out of context, that looks pretty good.

When you include the fact that one person is speaking from the perspective of infantry, which move 2" slower and charge, on average, the same distance as you and the other person is talking about cavalry, which will move 2-4" faster than you and (just as importantly) charge, on average, 4" further than you, we can see the disparity.

In fact, Jorgen even said this:


You usually need smaller formation and even better if you have the ambush skill to pull it of or cavalry that can charge 6+D6 and with a high basic movement.

One person has a disadvantage of only 2", the other person has an advantage of 6" (the move of an entire unit). That is pretty significant, especially as cavalry can set up outside the charge range of infantry to ensure they can try to charge with no response.


My claim is that Goblins are terribly under-priced for their capabilities, and because of this will be more efficient point-for-point than any other unit.
I.e. they will take more of your points off the board than the Goblin player will lose, and typically by a large margin.

Except that they won't.

This is the crux of the argument. Goblins have several major problems that have allowed me to thrash them every time I have run into them.

1 - They lose combats. This means they break frequently, and with their terrible courage, rallying is no sure thing.

2 - Their fight value is insanely low, meaning a lot of things will roll in on them with huge amounts of bonus attacks if you use a hero properly.

3 - They are extremely vulnerable to shooting, as concentrating fire on a single goblin unit without shields will produce tons of casualties (for instance, compare Oathsworn Bowmen to Goblins at equal points).

My last experience with goblins was this:

1 - I hit a unit head on with my Warg Riders. I have a captain, he has a captain, I have six companies (for a total of 170 points), he has 8 companies and a captain (for a total of 170 points) after I'd already killed a few with assorted magic and shooting. I think, if we want to be technical, he was short a few guys in the 8th company at this point.

I charge in. Now, five stands can get in base to base on a frontage of 3 (no shock), and I declare a heroic fight with my captain. That's 46 attacks, wounding on 4's. I don't remember how I rolled, but it wasn't incredibly good or bad, and left him with 5 companies, which is pretty much precisely what you'd expect. In response, he wiped out two of my companies with one spare hit, which is again pretty close to what you'd expect.

I win combat. He rolls, is disordered, we break apart. Now, I declared a heroic charge, which means I get to pile into him again. I make my charge, have 25 attacks this time against the goblins, and kill another 12, leaving him with about 3 companies. He fails to do anything in response because he is disordered and his formations fight like crap.

So now we're looking at the Warg riders at 3 + Captain (110) vs. the Goblins at 3.5 + Captain (102.5), which notably failed their courage check next round (relatively likely), remained disordered, and were wiped out.

So final score: Warg Riders 3 Companies + Captain, Goblins nothing.

Jorgen also mentioned this possibility as well:


In response to the Rohan cavalry destroying them, you also need to factor in such things as the potential to get an earth chattering charge as well after each combat as well as the goblins failing their courage test the next turn.

Morale matters. Winning fights matters. Recovering after losing fights matters. This is precisely why flanking is so terrible for goblins as well. You will get the same situation, from the side, and lose the entire unit in one shot (or, if they don't rally, two shots) at some points.


You just sound to me like you haven't really played a lot with the goblins yet. Not winning fights, being infantry, and having terrible courage are going to cause problems. You could easily smash a goblin line simply by piling in on two select units with an epic hero, declaring a heroic fight, blowing apart the unit in the first round as above, and the piling on as they repeatedly fail to rally. Let's not even talk about what magic, flyers, or ambushers would do to the goblin line strategy.

Goblins are decent, yes, but they aren't overpointed.

SJBenoist
22-05-2009, 19:06
There are apparently 3 of us debating this, and as I don't see it going anywhere. I intend to return to this thread after this weeks game.

When I say the above EXAMPLES don't include flanking, I'm speaking of the odds. :)

Also, Reinholt, read the posts. Jorgen said he edited his post after I had replied. The text in the body of that quote in my post does not refer to charge distance. This sort of thing makes me think you more concerned with winning an internet argument than understanding what I'm saying.

Lastly, if anyone wants to convince me ... show me the odds on equal points. If you see a flaw in my math, please show the correct calculation and how they suffer greater losses in points. It shouldn't be hard.

Reinholt
22-05-2009, 19:32
Lastly, if anyone wants to convince me ... show me the odds on equal points. If you see a flaw in my math, please show the correct calculation and how they suffer greater losses in points. It shouldn't be hard.

I see the problem here, and it is two-fold:

1 - You cannot accurately quantify the performance of a unit on the field using mathematics without a robust simulation that will account for all aspects of performance. Yes, goblins are relatively decent fighters in a single round of combat for their points. Why? Because they are relatively terrible when it comes to positioning (large and unwieldy) and multiple rounds of combat (because of morale).

2 - You definitely cannot accurately quantify maneuvering without seeing the board and seeing how units perform.

I would advise you to go play for a few weeks. You might be in for a few surprises. I've been playing since a month before the game was released (go advanced copies at GW stores!), and I assure you goblins are not all that. The basic math-hammer most people do is very deceiving, as it does not account for the majority of the game.

I am saying this, also, as someone with an undergraduate degree in mathematics, a post-graduate degree in mathematics, and an MBA in quantitative finance. I know my way around a few statistics.

Last, if you want the purely mathematical argument, here is one:

1 - Warg Riders + Captain, 5 companies (I use this unit in my Angmar army); total cost is 180 points.

2 - 9 companies of Goblins, with Captain. Total cost is 185 points.

The Warg Riders are cavalry, so let's assume they get the charge with the much greater charge distance, but the trade-off is that they won't be in range to whip out throwing weapons. Both captains fight at the same value if the goblin challenges, so we can say a heroic duel is likely to be a wash. Let's assume both sides declare a heroic fight in case they win. Goblins are in a 3x3 formation, though if we want to do any other and just have the wargs hit towards one side or the other, the result is the same.

Wargs: 40 Base Attacks + 6 attacks from fight value = 46 attacks, wounding on 4s. 23 dead goblins (~3 companies down) before they fight.

Goblins: 24 Base Attacks + 8 attacks from mob rule = 32 attacks, wounding on 5s. This is 5.33 kills, so two companies and a half of wargs are down.

Goblins lose, big time. Now, they must roll a 6 or be disordered in some form. Let's assume the most likely result - they aren't steadfast, but are also not broken. So they are disordered.

Warg riders charge again thanks to heroic fight. The goblins are now disordered. The wargs:

18 attacks for charging with three companies, 5 base attacks, 2 attacks for the fight value in the non-captain formation, 2 attacks for the fight value in the captain formation.

Total: 27 attacks, wounding on 4's, gives us 13.5 kills. Almost two more companies down, so the goblins are now at 4-5 companies remaining with some variance in there.

The goblins counter with 5 attacks total, since they are disordered. This isn't enough to kill a warg rider, most likely. They might, if they roll well, get one.

Turn ends. In total, we have:

2.5 dead companies of Wargs (50 points) vs. 4.5 dead companies of Goblins (67.5 points) and the Goblins being disordered, so they need to make a courage test (with a -1 modifier if I have any unit within 6") to rally, so they need this on courage 2 even with the captain, which are not good odds. Otherwise they are going to continue to get pounded ad naseum, given that they can barely attack back.

So there's your math as to how a realistic charge would play out head on. The goblins get wrecked, and then wrecked again, and then if they don't rally, wrecked again. They are strong in the initial turn (they are actually winning at that point), but if they cannot wholly break the foe on that first impact, they are screwed.

This mirrors how I've seen them play on the table. Goblins need to win immediately, or they get blown apart.

Angelust
22-05-2009, 20:42
What would that be if the goblins decided to not take a captain? (I personally don't...what a waste of points on a cheap and expendable unit).

SJBenoist
22-05-2009, 21:38
I don't know why you think I haven't played … I've been playing for six weeks.

I understand you have an impressive array of education in mathematics, but (unless Army Builder is wrong) don't those Wargs add up to 150 points? 5 companies x 20 points = 100 + 50 for a Captain?

Your going to have to drop the Goblin Captain, it's both points inefficient and not within the realm of my claim. This means you have 135 points to compare to a single 9 unit Moria Goblin formation, but let's leave the 150 point Warg formation for this example.


I would also say your example requires a Heroic action that badly skewers the standard odds. Under normal circumstances (no might spent), that will occur ~16% of the time. Without it, i.e. 83% of the time, the Goblins win the points trade-off. Even in the above example … dropping the Goblin Captain and giving the extra points to the Wargs, the Goblins still win (50 to 43) without the earth-shaking follow-up.

Taking 6 runs to allow 1 for your earth-shaker (which is a valid claim, and should be counted), we find the follow-up charge (I count 29 dice assuming the wounded stand moves into support) rounded up gives 15 casualties. Another 28 points inflicted. The points total after 6 runs totals Goblins 300 to Wargs 286. Averaged out we get 50 to 47.7.

The Goblins still win … despite the terrible frontage and being outpointed by 15 by the other formation.



Also, why would a player necessarily stay in a 3x3 formation? It would make more sense for the frontage to be the same in both units … or even higher for the Goblins, as widening the line is the most basic defense against a flanking. I've left this in all previous examples just to help illustrate how large of an advantage the Goblins have (because they win on points anyway 95% of the time), but if you are seriously analyzing against cavalry … this just doesn't make sense and would be a sign of incompetence in the opposing player (IMO).


I also want to reiterate and stipulate for any readers who skip the earlier posts:
1.I am not saying Goblins are unbeatable.
2.I am not saying there is no tactic or custom built force can overcome Goblins with some regularity.
3.I am not saying 135 points of Goblins can beat any formation of any value consistently.
4.I am saying Goblins are easily the most points efficient killers in WotR.
5.I am saying Goblins should cost more than 15 points per company.

Mephaine
22-05-2009, 22:12
Damm you got to love arguements. In the end each side I will admit has it points but it depends on the JOB of said unit. Rohan basic Common formation Cavalry can easily outclass most other cavalry in the game giving them an insane wholopp on the carge for what they do sadly in all fairness you can not compare that to the lowly Moria Goblin and a simple reason why. As previously mentioned their job. Goblins act as a back bone stalling unit/opportunistic set dependant on situation. The Back Bone unit is the group of 9 where they take a charge and yeah lose combat but most likely to stall for one of their more effective hammer units. Yes you can say any general in foresight would not allow such a thing and again could say goblins would die but positioning could lead to effective strikes from the other aspects of the army so here is the solutions.


Riders of Rohan Eorad: Reliable due to the following reasons. With Expert Rider they can unleash a torrent of fire before unleashing a devestating charge on a follow up allowing them to act as an effective hamer to create an opening to be exploited.

Moria Goblin Warband: Depends on how you run them. If it is to stall enemies they can take alot of hits to stall for time while run say a smaller group designed to outflank can easily provide excellent back-up to the bigger toys giving them a few more hits while decreasing foes attacks.


I pray this helps.

Lord Asuryan
29-05-2009, 16:52
the question here is reliable WHAT?
reliable speed bump? moria goblins.
reliable anvil? easterling pikemen
reliable hammer? dol amroth knights.
reliable flanker/harasser? outrider eored.
most reliable for points? probably Warriors of minas tirith

there isn't really an overall best common-most are good at SOMETHING.

Marauder
02-06-2009, 19:01
2 - If you are using cavalry in such a way that you get charged, you're a fool.


I'm sorry, this makes me laugh out loud. You must not be factoring spells and/or heroic actions into this statement.

Mephaine
02-06-2009, 19:07
Sadly he has a slight point. Not many things should be able to jump cavalry in return. with the fact 9 inches is there safe zone only other cavalry, monsters, flying mosters and units that get increased charge ranges should provide a threat. Even then no one is a master and small miscalculations can be made. In the end it comes down to how accurate the person decides to be.

Marauder
02-06-2009, 21:30
Sadly he has a slight point. Not many things should be able to jump cavalry in return. with the fact 9 inches is there safe zone only other cavalry, monsters, flying mosters and units that get increased charge ranges should provide a threat. Even then no one is a master and small miscalculations can be made. In the end it comes down to how accurate the person decides to be.

Right, but "only other cav, monsters, flying monsters and units with increased charge range" is a lot of stuff. Heroic actions make it even more difficult as even with priority you can't be guaranteed to charge first. Avoiding all of those things means hanging your cav quite far back. IMHO its better to take some calculated risks with them, which means that they very might well get charged sometimes.

It just struck me as condescending to state unequivocally that if you got your cav charge then you were a fool.

As far as reliable common formations, I love my big block of orcs. They are lead by Khamul, have banner and taskmaster, but no other upgrades. I can count on them to be reliably cheap, and to die in droves.

My orc archers are also quite reliable - not that they kill that much, but again a dirt cheap distraction.

Mephaine
02-06-2009, 22:19
Its only idiotic if Infantry got the charge on cavalry without wings of terror on them. Otherwise its acceptable.