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Shinnjin
14-05-2009, 23:36
I'm at my wits end...

Game after game I watch the damn DE hydra eat everything I throw at it, it doesn't seem to matter what I do, I've only managed to kill it once in a dozen or so games.

Do I spend time trying to kill it or do I just try to keep it occupied and away from the battle?
If I go for killing it, what do I use?
If I go for stalling, what's best for the job?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

ICEMANQ
14-05-2009, 23:41
You could try use a vampire with the flaming lance? It won't get regen or armour saves against it.

Eulogy2
15-05-2009, 00:20
let it chew on zombies the entire game. if its lucky it may kill 80 points worth.

Dungeon_Lawyer
15-05-2009, 00:26
Try this one its very effective & cheap---helm of commandment + a unit of skellies with spears with the hellfire banner. Vanhels to taste of course...

Witchblade
15-05-2009, 01:19
A varghulf will inflict only 0.93 wounds per turn on the charge and after that it gets way worse. I like how they are the same points cost...

A unit of 5 plain blood knights on the charge will kill 1 beast master and inflict 3.33 wounds on the beast. The hydra in turn will retaliate with 1.75 wounds, not including the beastmaster. If you have a standard (which you should have) you will win combat by 4. That should do it.

A unit of 6 blood knights with the banner of strigos (hatred) hitting the hydra in the flank will inflict 6.66 wounds, overkilling the cheese and running down the beast pokers. As blood knights should always overkill everything in order to overrun into a new unit and considering that Satan is statistically on their side, this is the preferred solution to those 175 points of cheese.

Nicha11
15-05-2009, 01:45
A unit of 5 plain blood knights on the charge will kill 1 beast master and inflict 3.33 wounds on the beast.

I'm not positive, but i believe that you can't target the handlers...

Shinnjin
15-05-2009, 01:50
You can only attack the handlers if you are in contact with them and not the hydra. Any time you normally could choose to hit the handler or the hydra, you MUST hit the hydra.

Witchblade
15-05-2009, 01:59
and since only 4 knights can get into combat with the hydra, I thought 1 would have to strike at a beastmaster, but now that I think about it, I think that's not true. The beast masters have small bases, so in order to line up with maximised models in combat, 2 knights would end up facing only a beast master, but only 3 knights could get into combat with the hydra. That's even better, because now you will kill 2 beast masters and inflict 2.5 wounds on the hydra, forcing it to take a break test on ld 6 minus 4 = 2.

Lord Dan
15-05-2009, 02:09
and since only 4 knights can get into combat with the hydra, I thought 1 would have to strike at a beastmaster, but now that I think about it, I think that's not true. The beast masters have small bases, so in order to line up with maximised models in combat, 2 knights would end up facing only a beast master, but only 3 knights could get into combat with the hydra. That's even better, because now you will kill 2 beast masters and inflict 2.5 wounds on the hydra, forcing it to take a break test on ld 6 minus 4 = 2.

Line them up. You can only attack the beastmasters if you cannot hit the hydra. When I line em' up I get 4 that could strike the hydra.

Witchblade
15-05-2009, 02:15
I don't have any minis where I am now, but the hydra's base is 50mm. Knights are 25mm. That means 4 knights could hit the hydra, but they would stick out 25mm on each side, wheras the beastmasters would only stick out 20mm, so only 4 knights in total could fight, none of them at the beast masters. However, if you shift the knights all the way to one beast master, you have 1 knight sticking out at that side of a beast master and 50 + 2 x 20 = 90mm of space to place your other knights. That is 90 - 3 x 25 = 15mm left when 3 knights are placed aligned to the hydra. 15 < 20mm, so the fifth knight total would not be able to strike at the hydra, as he is 5mm away from it.

I think...

GreenSpeed
15-05-2009, 02:35
Grave guard, Give them the banner of barrows, and put a wight king in there with a great weapon with a bsb and banner of hellfire, and then helm of command them.

You get at least 4 combat res, with two banners, outnumber and some ranks , You should be able to get ASF from either a corpse cart, or vanhels. You will get 7 attacks with great weapons you will be hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s and he wont be getting his regeneration or armor saves. Thats about four wounds, if you strike first. If you use shields, you get two wounds and a 5 up save.

Emeraldw
15-05-2009, 02:45
Even though you say kill, why not zombie pit it? Whats the maximum it can kill each turn? A general with that extra zombie summon staff should be enough to make it impossible for him to chew through.

Marshal Torrick
15-05-2009, 02:52
Ummmm....Wraiths.

Dexter099
15-05-2009, 03:00
How many points are hydras again?

Like 80 or something ridiculously cheap like that?

Lord Dan
15-05-2009, 03:12
How many points are hydras again?

Like 80 or something ridiculously cheap like that?

175. But close.

bludsturm
15-05-2009, 03:15
Forbidden Lore + Pit of Shades?

WhiteLion
15-05-2009, 03:27
I don't have any minis where I am now, but the hydra's base is 50mm. Knights are 25mm. That means 4 knights could hit the hydra, but they would stick out 25mm on each side, wheras the beastmasters would only stick out 20mm, so only 4 knights in total could fight, none of them at the beast masters. However, if you shift the knights all the way to one beast master, you have 1 knight sticking out at that side of a beast master and 50 + 2 x 20 = 90mm of space to place your other knights. That is 90 - 3 x 25 = 15mm left when 3 knights are placed aligned to the hydra. 15 < 20mm, so the fifth knight total would not be able to strike at the hydra, as he is 5mm away from it.

I think...

If the dark elf player is placing models in order to maximize combatants, then he should line up both handlers on one side. This means that your fifth knight gets into combat and can only attack the handlers.

We've discussed it at length here:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=29569

Shinnjin
15-05-2009, 05:14
Very nice, thanks evryone who answered, especially WhiteLion; that thread was most excellent advice.

Hopefully I won't be as plagued by the hydra from now on. :)

Scythe
15-05-2009, 05:32
Even though you say kill, why not zombie pit it? Whats the maximum it can kill each turn? A general with that extra zombie summon staff should be enough to make it impossible for him to chew through.

Theoretically the hydra and its handlers can kill 13 zombies a turn. Add in combat resolution (let's give the zombies 5 here for ranks, outnumber and banner), and you are looking at 21 zombies per combat phase.

In practice the unit will kill about 8,71 zombies on average in the first round of combat (thus 12,42 with combat resolution) and 6,55 in following rounds (8,11 after combat resolution).

You'd need to summon about 20 zombies per magic phase (as they have to survive 2 combat phases) to keep a hydra occupied (assuming you have enough zombies available every time to keep your combat resolution score maximal).

Caine Mangakahia
15-05-2009, 05:52
Wraiths are the only real practical answer,especially with a banshee. Try and have them within 12 of your BSB so they wont take combat res wounds and scream at it every chance you get. You'll both have 175 points tied up in a deadlocked combat.

GuyLeCheval
15-05-2009, 05:54
Vampires don't need to kill them, they tie them up with endless swarms of zombies...

andyg2006
15-05-2009, 06:00
Yep, 'tar-pit' them and keep them neutralised.

sulla
15-05-2009, 06:44
But the hydra will probably breathe on the unit first and reduce it to a manageable chunk...

I'd go with either knights (either variety) or etherals (either variety), although a black coach vs hydra alost always ends up tieing both up for the entire game too so that's worth considering if the hydra is really causing carnage.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-05-2009, 06:48
175. But close.

Fits neatly with the cost of 2 Wraiths and a Banshee then. Although personally I'd go for 3 Wraiths and a Banshee. Since the Hydra can't hurt them at all you only need to cause a single wound to tie on CR.

fubukii
15-05-2009, 10:47
etheral units are a good start :)
Blood knights
Any unit with regen

The Red Scourge
15-05-2009, 10:50
Blood Knights with flaming banner or Wraiths ...

Shinnjin
15-05-2009, 11:52
the main question would be: Is it worth kitting one unit to go hydra-hunting?
It won't be able to do very much else then and then it's a question of economics: Who wins the most out of tying it up/kitting to kill?

Grimbrow
15-05-2009, 11:54
"Even though you say kill, why not zombie pit it? Whats the maximum it can kill each turn? A general with that extra zombie summon staff should be enough to make it impossible for him to chew through."

Bear in mind that other units CAN join that combat, and DElfs aren't exactly slow. Those zombies will have something else in their rear within a turn or two.

Shinnjin
15-05-2009, 11:59
Depending on positioning, you should have some units around to prevent a flank/rear attack, so I think it's a viable solution, the thing that the plan fails on is the fact that the hydra will munch up something like 20 zombies between each opportunity to cast IoN, that's at least 3 PD you have to use to replenish them, and that's even without concidering if you have enough zombies in the unit to withstand the slaughter.

How about tar-pitting it and then raising zombies for flank-charges? the extra CR bonus would do something about the equation, right?

Harwammer
15-05-2009, 12:32
You'll both have 175 points tied up in a deadlocked combat.

Woo! play for deadlock!

No wonder VC get a bad rep ;)

Would flaming black knights be any good for this role? Black knights are a manouveurable and a decent unit, so its likely they can find the hydra AND if they don't they can still be handy, so they only 'wasted' 25 points on a flaming banner.

Dungeon_Lawyer
15-05-2009, 12:59
Wraiths are the only real practical answer,especially with a banshee. Try and have them within 12 of your BSB so they wont take combat res wounds and scream at it every chance you get. You'll both have 175 points tied up in a deadlocked combat.

LOL at first I pictured him actually screaming at them---then I remember oh yeah he is talking about wraiths....:)

Ultimate Life Form
15-05-2009, 13:10
Hydras make you scream. Itīs only natural.

FictionalCharacter
15-05-2009, 14:02
Those zombies will have something else in their rear within a turn or two.

hey now...

Reinnon
15-05-2009, 15:05
Wraiths are perhaps the best bet, but i generally find that not fighting the hydra with anything bar zombies is by far the most reliable way to deal with it. Still takes considerable magical power to keep the zombies alive.

Yeah, the hydra is a bit silly for 175 points.

orkz222
15-05-2009, 16:29
Anyway I killed it once using skeletons and zombies.

It was already in combat with my 5x4 skeletons with FC. Then during my turn I raise dead a unit of zombies behind the hydra and invocate it 3-4 times(i think, cant remember) and increase the zombies to 20+. van hels it into the rear of the hydra.

The hydra+handler fluff their atks inflicting only 2-3wounds , no hatred , 1 handlers died in the prev rnd combat. won the combat by CR and the hydra failed its breaktest and got sandwich.

The hydra still had full wounds when it got sandwich. CR FTW!!! lol guess i got lucky also...

FictionalCharacter
15-05-2009, 16:34
Anyway I killed it once using skeletons and zombies.

It was already in combat with my 5x4 skeletons with FC. Then during my turn I raise dead a unit of zombies behind the hydra and invocate it 3-4 times(i think, cant remember) and increase the zombies to 20+. van hels it into the rear of the hydra.

The hydra+handler fluff their atks inflicting only 2-3wounds , no hatred , 1 handlers died in the prev rnd combat. won the combat by CR and the hydra failed its breaktest and got sandwich.

The hydra still had full wounds when it got sandwich. CR FTW!!! lol guess i got lucky also...

that plan involves at least about 5 powerdice + the book assuming you make every roll and nothing is dispelled. odds are you'll make slightly less than half your rolls (before equipment like skull staff, etc.), so that makes it upwards of 10 to 12 powerdice before dispelling? that's a hell of a risk, especially if you need to bank on the hydra doing no damage. well done, nonetheless.

stiggie
15-05-2009, 17:12
id say try konrad and spirit hosts..

konrad gets to re-roll to hit (not sure of hydras ws but still..) he has 5 strength and every wound he does is doubled and he gets an extra attack for each wound he does?? (first time only) .. thats up to 15 attacks on the hydra?..

also spirit hosts are alot better at holding units than zombies. expecially when u have winds of undeath :)

Gaargod
15-05-2009, 20:13
3 spirit hosts will annoy the hell out of the DE player.

The hydra physically can't hurt them, and the hosts outnumber the big beasty. You win combat by 1 every round.

Costs 195pts as opposed to 175pts of Hydra, but does have the advantage of almost 100% reliability.

Frankly
15-05-2009, 21:49
The real problem is dual hydras

stiggie
15-05-2009, 21:55
just use even more spirit hosts??

no problem :)..

or even better (if ur list is tailored like this) ethereal black coach??

theunwantedbeing
15-05-2009, 22:10
Easiest way to beat the hydra.
Tarpit it, then wait for it to fluff its attacks and lose the combat.
Killing one handler in combat is easy, killing 2 is trickier but not impossible...you also have the bonus of being on 20mm bases so you CAN hit that second handler just fine.

No need to waste ethereals. You want them fighting things like cold one knights and black guard. Things that your normal troops arent going to be able to tarpit very well.

Also, etherals need magic to kill usually.
Your etherals make a beeline for the guy holding the ring of hotek. Then refuse to attack him.
You just screwed over the DE player then.

If you want to go down the route of just killing the hydra.
Vamp lord, red fury, infinite hatred, walking death, balefire spike, knightmare.
3+ to hit, re-roll hits, 2+ to wound. Wounds become extra attacks.
Blood Knights, banner of hellfire.
Same sort of thing, only you'll be generating a full 12 attacks rather than upto 8, plus a heap of steed attacks and you can force the handlers to be attackable (best not to though, although the DE player will actually prefer this result)

A Hydra won't live vs that.
No need for special character's.

Failing that, lore of metal, spirit of the forge.
2d6 hits, 4+ to wound, no saves for the hydra. No hits randomise to the handlers.

Ravenousone2
15-05-2009, 23:56
ummmm DE dont have anything for Cairn wraiths and they'll mop the floor w/ a hydra in no time....... i take CW's everytime i play DE's

Caine Mangakahia
16-05-2009, 07:07
Knights might kill a Hydra, but with regen its not a certainty, and from experience a Hydra can definitly kill knights (especially if given KB by a cauldron),
The advantage with the 2 wraith and banshee combo is that they cost an equal amount of points to the hydra, can't be hurt by the hydra, and have the scream to fall back on (and yes I will occasionally just scream at the model, usually how broken it is for 175 points).
Even before getting into combat if the banshee takes a wound or two off with the scream, it has the effect of weakening its breath attack.

PARTYCHICORITA
16-05-2009, 14:04
Wraiths:
-Hydra can't touch them
-S5 can damage it
-Mv6 skirmish means it's hard for her to run away from you
-3 only cost 150pts

mark theurer
17-05-2009, 18:19
In an under-2000 point game is there consensus about whether 1-2 Repeating Bolt Throwers are better than a Hydra?

Thanks,

Mark

sulla
18-05-2009, 04:59
In an under-2000 point game is there consensus about whether 1-2 Repeating Bolt Throwers are better than a Hydra?

Thanks,

Mark

Not vs undead. Hydra all the way; primarily as a shooting weapon but in combat if you must. Hitting 12+ core infantry with a flank breath shot from one of these makes the unit very vulnerable to crumbling out of existence.
On the other hand, the RBTs can't do much that can't be healed with an invocation or two.

Scythe
18-05-2009, 06:05
How about tar-pitting it and then raising zombies for flank-charges? the extra CR bonus would do something about the equation, right?

Meh, a single flank charge nets you +1 combat resolution, but you'll still lose most likely. What's more, any kills due to combat resolution now affect two units instead of one.

FictionalCharacter
18-05-2009, 11:10
If you want to go down the route of just killing the hydra.
Vamp lord, red fury, infinite hatred, walking death, balefire spike, knightmare.
3+ to hit, re-roll hits, 2+ to wound. Wounds become extra attacks.
Blood Knights, banner of hellfire.
Same sort of thing, only you'll be generating a full 12 attacks rather than upto 8, plus a heap of steed attacks and you can force the handlers to be attackable (best not to though, although the DE player will actually prefer this result)

A Hydra won't live vs that.
No need for special character's.



isn't that like 900 - 1000 points and a lord choice to go after 175 points? ouch.