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Nu Fenix
14-05-2009, 23:39
I am posting this here, as I didn't wish to de-rail an army list due to a rules issue.


Wait, what? Why can't terrain be both "defensible" and "difficult"? That's the way we play it. Double movement through ANY terrain. Otherwise, as you point out, Pathfinder is pointless.

That's part of the point of terrain, it's a constraint that a tactician needs to deal with.

Now, I base that Difficult and Defensible Terrain are not the same thing, due to the second paragraph of the Difficult Terrain section of the Move Phase, found on page 33.
I won't quote it as I don't want to copy sections of the rulebook here unless there is no other way, but in that paragraph is describes Difficult Terrain and then says Defensible Terrain features are discussed later.
Then, in the third paragraph, it states distances moved over Difficult Terrain count as double, but does not apply to Defensible.

As such, there are two different kinds of terrain, and the Pathfinder skill is used to traverse through Difficult Terrain, as Defensible offers no movement penalty.

So, I believe that terrain that is not open is either Difficult OR Defensible, whereas Avatar believes that they can be both.

What do others here think?

SJBenoist
15-05-2009, 00:32
We had played it as both difficult & defensible, but I can definitely see the either/or interpretation.

It could make a pretty large difference ... which one works for ambushers again?

Nu Fenix
15-05-2009, 00:53
Ambushers can only hide in Defensible Terrain, such as woods, ruins, buildings, etc.

Avatar of the Eldar
15-05-2009, 02:08
NF, thanks for your thoughtfulness in continuing the conversation but being respectful of that other thread. Also I commend your graciousness in not leaping right into arguing but rather stating your point of view and opening the conversation to other input.

To elaborate just a bit more, by my group's collective reasoning all terrain is "difficult" meaning we assume it would impede the movement of formations if not individuals. However that does not equate to all "difficult" terrain being "defensible". i.e. Forests, marshes, buildings and even hills invoke the movement penalty. (Contrasted with our interpetation in WFB where hills do not.) Forests, buildings, hedges, rocky outcroppings, are defensible. Whereas marshes, and hills are not.

This makes sense to us and we're comfortable with it. I'm a little annoyed that there is no fight bonus for fighting downhill as in WFB, but I'll gladly let that go to do without all the other fiddly rules that come with WFB.

Emissary
15-05-2009, 02:26
Read page 55 in the "our numbers are too great!" section:


However, any formation is allowed to move though an unoccupied defensible terrain feature, counting it as difficult terrain in all respects...

Whilst the formation remains in the terrain feature, all other formations (on both sides) treat the feature as difficult terrain.

Hope this helps the argument a bit.

If you just wish to enter the defensible terrain and defend it, you just have to touch it and get all companies within 6" of it, then the entire unit just enters it. Your opponents cannot then enter it until the defenders are driven out.

Jorgen_CAB
15-05-2009, 05:31
So you mean that you could say that a large hill is a defensible object with a capacity of six (defence +1)?
If you place four archer companies on it and you want them all to fire you need to treat it as difficult and gain no defense bonus or you claim it as defensible and only three companies may shoot?

That could actually work for me, it also makes the pathfinder skill much more useful.

Nu Fenix
15-05-2009, 09:08
Under "Our Numbers Are Too Great" is it only when you have too many companies for a piece of Defensible Terrain that it becomes Difficult? As I see it as trying to move too many people through the same space, which is why they are slowed down and cannot claim a Defence Bonus.

Yet unless their numbers are too great, I don't see it becoming Difficult Terrain and merely staying as Defensible, so you movement isn't decreased.

So for example, with a small forest that was Capacity 3, a three company formation could move through it without penalty and also occupy it, whereas a four company formation would count it as Difficult and get half movement, unless they had Pathfinder Woodland/Master, in which case they wouldn't.

Avatar - Thank you for your kind words :) I believe that if I disagree with someone regarding the rules, if I can't support my claim, then I should just be quiet, as otherwise I just turn into another internet whiner, and I definitely don't want that.

krashreed
15-05-2009, 14:57
So if woods were to become difficult terrain because I choose not to hold and defend it. How do you treat shooting into and out of it since there are no conventions for shooting in and out of woods unless they are defended? Would I simply not be able to shoot from within it nor get shot at while inside?

Avatar of the Eldar
15-05-2009, 15:09
So if woods were to become difficult terrain because I choose not to hold and defend it. How do you treat shooting into and out of it since there are no conventions for shooting in and out of woods unless they are defended? Would I simply not be able to shoot from within it nor get shot at while inside?

There's a difference between moving through and occupying defensible terrain. If you're going to occupy it, you need only get within the range outlined above, but that does not apply if you're just passing through.

In other words, if you plan to end your move in the terrain to claim its "defensible" bonuses, you need only move up to touching and have all companies within 6". If you're planning on moving through it, your movement is halved until all companies are through it.

If your formation doesn't have enough movement to make it all the way through and it's partially in and partially out of the terrain feature, we'd rule that you do not get the defense bonuses. Therefore, more often than not, it's preferable to just occupy a turn and move out the next turn if you don't think you can make it all the way through.

You can shoot into and out of woods as long as there's reasonable line of sight. I don't have my book handy but I seem to recall that it's more generous than the 2" rule in WFB.

krashreed
15-05-2009, 16:37
You can shoot into and out of woods as long as there's reasonable line of sight. I don't have my book handy but I seem to recall that it's more generous than the 2" rule in WFB.

I think the passage that you are refering to is measuring from the center for purposes of shooting into or out of defensible terrain. So are you saying that you would use this convention whether you've occupied it to get the defensive bonus and if you are just passing through it as difficult terrain?

Jorgen_CAB
15-05-2009, 17:21
I would simply rule that you either must have enough movement to clear the terrain or you must claim it (if your formation is within the capacity limit). That will avoid strange situation where you can have a one company formation refusing anyone else to claim a big patch of Woods.

So in essence, you can move through it in a turn if you have enough movement to clear it in one single turn, or else you end up inside and will defend it for that turn. The next turn you can try to exit the terrain and keep moving.

krashreed
15-05-2009, 18:20
So in essence, you can move through it in a turn if you have enough movement to clear it in one single turn, or else you end up inside and will defend it for that turn. The next turn you can try to exit the terrain and keep moving.

The problem with forcing someone to take defensible terrain is that on the next turn exiting defensive terrain takes up all of your movement.

dtjunkie19
15-05-2009, 19:13
I believe it works as so:

Any piece of terrain that is designated as defensible (before the game) is also difficult. Just like a sheer rock wall on a hill in your board, or a fence would be.

So if a unit wants to occupy the terrain piece, they just have to touch it and they are in. Remember, the book discribes occupying a defensible terrain as the unit gets "dug in"... i.e they set traps, hide behind walls/trees/rocks etc. They then get all the bonuses and rules that go along with defensible terrain as per the rulebook.

But if that unit doesnt want to occupy the terrain, but rather wishes to move through it (think marching through woods/building/etc rather than fortifying in it) they move at half speed until all companies are through it. They do NOT count as being in defensible terrain, as they arent taking defense in it, rather they are moving through it.

I think thats pretty clear and there aren't really any strange situations that I see.
@ Jorgen, your example makes perfect sense. If there is a company of uruk-hai scouts in the woods, there is no way your oathsworn bowmen will be able to take up a proper defense in the woods...as you already have company.

However you could simply move into the woods yourself and attack said company of troops. Then when they die you can occupy the terrain.

Erethor
15-05-2009, 22:53
I don't quite understand what everybody is talking about.

For the pathfinders rules, you can treat difficult terrain as open ground. Seems clear.

Now, if a unit wants to pass through a wood, then they have to occupy it following defensible terrain rules.

Units cannot choose to pass through a defensible terrain feature as difficult ground, and can only do so following the "Our Numbers Are Too Great" rule. So naturally, this means that even units with pathfinders have to occupy a defensible terrain feature if they want to pass through. Now, if they had more companies than a feature's capacity, then they would be able to pass through at full speed, except they'd get no defense bonus because they aren't "occupying" the defensible terrain feature.

I believe everything I've said is correct? If not, please point it out, but I'm pretty sure this is how everything plays out, so there shouldn't be any confusion.

Jorgen_CAB
15-05-2009, 23:13
I think the discussion are not as much about what the rules actually state but the fact that most people don't like that particular rule or that it is unclear.
So far we have played it that a pathfinder, or any unit for that matter may pass any terrain that for them is deemed to be defensible if they can get through it in one move. That works very well and don't produce any big problems rules wise.

There are no logic that a three company formation of rangers has to stop and occupy a wood (capacity three) when a formation of four companies of rangers can clear it in one turn and charge someone on the other side. Sometimes some rules just don't make sense to some people.

However, there is a passage of the text (page 53) that tells us that any unit (not just those that a larger than the capacity) may enter a defensible object and treat it as difficult terrain. The sentence are to me clear that it means all formations, even if it is written under the "Our Numbers Are Too Great!" section. It also mean that anyone who can see the defensible object also can see that formation and thus can shoot at it, even if that is not logical in the slightest.

Nu Fenix
15-05-2009, 23:32
On one hand I feel like I have opened a can of worms about the rules of the game, but on the other, it shows that we aren't all interpreting the rules the same, which just shouldn't happen.

Avatar of the Eldar
15-05-2009, 23:37
On one hand I feel like I have opened a can of worms about the rules of the game, but on the other, it shows that we aren't all interpreting the rules the same, which just shouldn't happen.

I don't see this as a practical issue so long as we're not experiencing difficulties within our gaming groups when it comes to rules interpretation.

Sure it would be nice if we were all agreed, but given the explicitly relaxed nature of this ruleset, I'm cool with you having a different interpretation if that works for you and your mates. No skin off my nose. Personally, I don't want this game to be support tournament style play. If these ambiguities prevents that, it's all to the good in my book.

Erethor
15-05-2009, 23:44
Ah. I see now where I made a mistake. So what is the whole confusion about difficult or defensible terrain now? The rules seem pretty clear, now i'm just completely lost as to what everybody is trying to figure out.

Jorgen_CAB
15-05-2009, 23:49
Well the rules are not clear, if they were there would not be a discussion about it now would there? ;)

I think I explained the question once again it in my last post.

Erethor
16-05-2009, 00:35
So, here's a rundown of what the rulebook says:

Any unit can treat a defensible terrain piece as difficult terrain, which means that Pathfinder units can move through any defensible terrain piece at regular pace and gain no defense bonus, or they can take up positions like any other formation and gain the defense bonus, but they follow regular defensible rules.

Rirekon
16-05-2009, 11:11
To quote the book;

<...> a formation cannot occupy a defensible terrain feature if it has more companies than the feature's capacity can support. However, any formation is allowed to move through an unoccupied defensible terrain feature, counting it as difficult terrain in all respects. <...>

So if you have a woods with capacity 3 then any formation with 3 or fewer companies can occupy it. Any formation that chooses not to occupy, or which has 4 more or companies, will treat it as difficult terrain instead.

It's all pretty clear really, which bit of this are people confused about?

dtjunkie19
16-05-2009, 12:49
Agreed Rirekon the "our numbers are too great" section explains it clearly.

Angelust
16-05-2009, 19:55
Yes, the inclusion of "any formation" seems to be an inclusive statement. It's just weird book-writing that they included the rule in the "Our Numbers Are Too Great!" area...

Jorgen_CAB
17-05-2009, 00:10
And that is why I believed when I read the rules the first time that you could not move through terrain with a formation that was equal or lower than capacity. In my opinion this is badly written becasue it is quite easy to assume one thing when the text actually tell you something else.