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Easy E
23-12-2005, 22:27
Greetings all,

You may remember me from such threads as "Re-imagining an OOP 40K race" and "INVASION!", but today I want to talk about a serious threat. The threat of Cults. I have put together a basic Codex for Cult armies in 40K. This represents the basic,standard unit types that can be found amongst various cults in the 40K universe. In the future I would like to come up with special entries that would add on or replace existing unit choices to represent specific cults such as: Chaos, Genestealer, Vampire, Imperial, Machine-God, Xeno, etc. Before I start this process, I would love some feedback on the basic units.

C & C is craved.

Easy E
23-12-2005, 22:29
Here is the Wargear section.

Enjoy!

IncubiLord
25-12-2005, 04:44
It looks like a good framework for the cult list when I give it a once over. I'd say that it isn't really a viable army without the center of the cult, but that should be a set of "plug and play" units added in when you choose the type of cult. Will each cult type also have their own wargear items?
Tim Hucklebery's Codex Genestealer Cult is still out there (http://www.torchlight.org.uk/Tyranids/Codex_Genestealer_Cults_The_Directors_Cut_Disc_1.p hp), and I would draw inspiration from it, though directly copying his ideas is ill-advised.
If you'd like I can pick at details inconsistant with other codices...

Easy E
28-12-2005, 00:46
Yeah, each cult type will have their own wargear items as well as the general ones.

Pick away. After all, you know I have limited rulebook references.

IncubiLord
28-12-2005, 01:05
Great Weapons - appear in Chaos SM, are only +1Str and don’t affect I. The ‘Uge Choppa from codex Orks is what you listed, except it also has the Choppa save modifier thing.

Eviscerator – appears in the Kroot Mercs and =][= codices. It should be a chainfist, not a powerfist.

Hellguns – be sure to note that these have improved AP, in codex IG

Shield – In SM ‘dex, a combat shield offers a Invulnerable save, not an armor improvement. Storm shields have a better Invuln. save, but include a power generator. This entry may not need changed, though.

Bionics – the rewording of this item takes away the 2nd save aspect it normally gives

Targetter – appears in the IG ‘dex. It has something to do with pre-measuring, re-rolling to hit is master-crafted

Icewalker
29-12-2005, 14:23
I think that it's a cool idea, but it would be confusing. You could have the base cult (which isn't half bad) and give them traits like marines get. I think that that is your best bet. But I think that it'd be a good idea to make the demagogue a Toughness 4 instead of 3 (he is supposed to be the ringleader is he not and this is not the IG). But well done.

Easy E
29-12-2005, 23:51
Yes, but the demagogue is only human.

I was trying to figure out a traits system, but I don't want people to mix and match Chaos units with Genestealer units.

Perhaps there can be Cult Type Doctrines that would allow you certain troop types to replace existing options, these Types would be 1 per cult. Some type would be:
Genestealer, Chaos, Xeno, Imperial, Machine-God, Vampire

Then they could use structure points for special units and abilities that are not Cult specific such as:
Assassins, Gun Truck, Mutants, Psychic Powers, Bolters, bionics, etc.

IncubiLord
30-12-2005, 00:00
And then there's the really hard ones: non-human cults.
An Ork Genestealer Cult is very fluffy, and that's just a starting point.

Easy E
30-12-2005, 20:50
That sounds like a little to far a field for me at the moment. I think my work will try and stick with humans.

Easy E
06-01-2006, 02:09
Here is a couple of Nuggets I found on the GW website that I think could fit into this Codex as well.

Enslavers:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chapterapproved/creature-feature/2/
I could see them as being the leaders of a potential Xenos Cult. The Cult members would not have to be controled. Then, the cult could choose troops from Codex: IG (no doctrines) as 0-1 elites, 0-2 Troops, 0-2 fast Attack, and 0-1 Heavy Support that can not be mandatory FOC choices and must be controlled by the Enslaver per there special rules.

Undead:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chapterapproved/creature-feature/8/
I see these as a potential unit choice for a Vampire Cult. As the Old Fluff indicates that a victim can be re-animated by the Vampire to do their bidding. Since this is supposedly difficult to do, I would make it an Elite choice.

Any thoughts on a potential doctrine system?

IncubiLord
06-01-2006, 05:17
I would avoid doctrines.
Offer options for a more CC or Heavy Support geared cult, but that and the Xenos/Cult Focus should be more than enough variety.

sigur
06-01-2006, 13:37
Some nice ideas in here, although I'd like to see the different cults differences worked out a bit stronger, which happens at the moment as I read later in this thread.

I'd also advise you to stay away from doctrines, but use the different cults instead. Makes them less flexible but it feels not so wrong.

Cults:
Genestealer Cults
Chaotic Cults (maybe with slight differences between the 4 big chaotic dieties [and a Malal cult if you want to add something fancy;) ])
"Enslavered" Cult
Vampire Cult (I really like the fact that you picked up this idea)

Easy E
06-01-2006, 21:54
I was also hoping on adding an Imperial Cult and a Machine-God Cult.

I think I am going to play with the Creature Feature to develop a Vampire HQ based off the old RT era vampire fluff.

Chem-Dog
07-01-2006, 01:30
I have been mulling this idea about in my head for several years now, I'd like to share my thoughts, Some have coaleced as actual units but some are still quite nebulous.

Firstly, re-name the Demagogue as a Prophet, the preacher as a Demagogue.

Rather than giving all of the special rules for units in their entry, it might be better to leave rules (like the hatred one) for particular cult types, these can be represented in several ways, either as upgrades that are given to units of a particular cult type (EG All genestealer cult units have the hatred rule at +1 point per model, this has the added advantage of enabling you to include some specific units like Purestrain genestealers, for example) or as a set of upgrades that can be given to any cult in a similar way to Imperial Guard Doctrines or Space Marine Traits.

Equipment should be Low tech or at least low maintenance, this cult (we are assuming) has opperated unseen, in the shadows for some time, the opportunity to buy exotic weapons is rare, cut out Plasma and Melta weapons from the list entirely, I'd be tempted to drop all bolt weapons too as they are notoriously difficult to maintain.


The Leader:
Is as he should be, not too powerful. Possibly give him optional psyker upgrade as psyker influence/daemonic possession could be the reason for the cult's uprising (exact powers could be decided by which cult he is leading).

Possibly give the Leader the option of riding a horse (or whatever the local equivalent is) cavalry are always going to be equated with the upper echelons of society, perhaps this rabble rouser is one of the ruling elite.

Maybe bring back the limousine (favorite of the Genestealer cults in years gone by) as a transport.

Just an Idea, but maybe the Leader can take any squad available in the army as his bodyguard that counts as part of the 1 hq choice, so if you want him to join a traitor squad, this squad counts as part of the HQ choice rather than a troop choice, this could extend into cult specific troops choices.


Elite:
Possibly the hardest to come up with a decent concept for, the whole idea of a cult force in 40K is for non combatant fanatics to run rampant relying on enthusiasm rather than skill add in the fact that you are trying to keep everything generic and it gets tricky. With that in mind I came to "Diciples", which are pretty much like you have them, slightly harder than guardsmen with the pick of the best weaponry the cult can muster, they should be your bodyguard unit, personally I think they shouldn't be infiltrators but should be deployed literally as elite frontline troops, if they are joined by their leader the unit should become fearless, or at least stubborn.


Troops:
Soldiers. These would be like the Traitors unit featured in the EoT codex and witch hunters adversaries section, all of the same options apply, you may include one soldier Squad for each Cultist Mob in the army.

Cultist Mob. A different name for the "rabble", Ws2/Bs2 cannon fodder, not sure about them needing to supply cover what with the new rules for target selection, suppose they could reduce Ld for anyone trying to shoot through them if it's absolutely necessary.

Fanatics. Can't have a Cult without a few fanatics, this unit will hit hard in combat if and when they do hit. Given a "ceremonial weapon" that is to say some overly large bit of metal with some religeous significance (flails, gigantic icon-swords or axes etc etc). Give them feel no pain, but otherwise they'll be the same, stats wise, as Cultists. One per cultist mob unless cult specifics say otherwise.


Fast Attack:
Guard dogs/Hounds. Fine, maybe tone them down to Ws3, possibly have hounds as followers for characters too.

Transports. Rather than having transports available for units in their own list entry, a cult could buy them from it's Fast attack allowance, perhaps 1-3 transports per FA slot. There should be a basic generic "civillian" vehicle to be used as transport with cult specifics opening other options (like rhino's and chimeras).

Riders. Cavalry is a good option and a bad one at the same time, obviously it suggests Imperial Guard and it also suggests primitive, it fits with the general feel of a low tech force but feels out of place. I really don't know why.

Scouts. I can't think of a good name for them, perhaps they aren't necessary with the Soldiers in the troop section.


Heavy Support:
Tank. A basic chassis is bought, there are upgrades you can buy (like armour, turret, tracks perhaps even a transport section, basically you buy the armour and guns, it depends on how much your Cult can afford. Think of it as a limited VDR.

Industrial Machine. Generic term, heavy loader, combine harvester, Tunnel borer whatever, this covers the Cult's desparate use of non combatant vehicles to bolster their forces. Although I'm unsure exactly how to go about it, I think a nasty Close combat attack at the front (from the Grabbers, Blades, drill etc) is necessary, probably should mount a couple of heavy weapons (perhaps it should just rely on the devestation its main "armament" can cause).

Gigantic Beast/Beast herd. Basically if you like the primitive feel, I suppose a squiggoth style creature isn't too much to ask, not fast but hard to kill and nasty to face, if you don't like them big, perhaps the stampede can do the work.


Appendix
The specifics of the Cult. Firstly there are about 3 firm contenders for a full cult listing that I can think of at the moment. Genestealer, Chaos and Imperial.
Each has a list of troop types that can be included in this kind of cult, below is an example.
Genestealers
Patriarch (Special Character) or is it brood lord now?
Purestrain Genestealers
Hybrids

There would then be two or three special upgrades for a cult such as the hatred one mentioned above, perhaps the hypnotic stare of the genestealers could be covered, perhaps Imperial Fanatics can carry an evicerator.

There would be scope for including some narrative into the army giving it some background, a set of options that would be based on the situation the cult is borne from. I've included some random examples below.

Military Coup: The Cult as a strong foothold in the military, it has sponsored a coup to overthrow the current regime. The unit may purchase Soldier squads without having to include Cult Mobs.
Schism of Faith: the Cult is at war with bitter rivals (the argument was originally over some petty matter like which hand a saint touched a holy relic with). The cult reviles it's foes and anyone that sides with them, they gain the preferred enemy USR
Workforce Rebellion: The workforce (perhaps a Mutant slave workforce) has been overworked for too long, it only takes the right words to convince the workers that they must overthrow their masters, The force may include a industrial machines OR Gigantic Beasts/Beast Herds as Fast attack options as well as heavy support.
Divine Retribution: The Planetary rulers are corrupt and have strayed from the righteous path, the Faithfull will destroy them. The army may include as many fanatics as you want.

Those are rough examples to illustrate a point. You could have a rule which allows the cult to take imperial pattern vehicles or gives them the high tech/high maintenance weapons they can't normally have.
hope this helps.

Easy E
07-01-2006, 02:19
Wow. There is a lot to go over here Chem- dog. Thanks for the suggestions. I will try and address them in order.

Name changes I have little problem with (You say potatoe, I say potato.)

I can see how the upgrades would be purchase able allowing you to tailor your cult a bit more. However, it tends to make the units very generic. Perhaps only Elite or HQ units can choose these upgrades.

I agree about the equipment being low tech. However, there is an issue of making the list playable as well. 98% of the cults gear is very low tech. Fluffwise, if underhive gangs in Necromunda can get there hands on plasma and melta weapons, so can a better organized and larger cult.

I left out the Psyker powers/possession in this version as I am leaving it for the different Cult Structures. For example, a Chaos cult may have a Possessed Prophet or a Rogue Psyker as an HQ choice.

I like the idea of giving him the ability to be mounted on a Horse or Xeno Mount (along with his retinue of Bodyguards)

Your idea of choosing one troop unit as a retinue and having it roll into the leaders HQ choice is good. However, what is the difference from having a regular Bodyguard unit? He could be protected by PDF or Rabble instead?

I think Elites are much easier once you branch into the different Cult Structures as each cults has unique troop types, such as Genestealer Cults obviously have Hybrids, Chaos Cults have Psykers, Machine God cults have Pit-Slaves, etc.

I am unsure why Disciples would be slightly harder than Guardsman. Now if you Combine the Demagogue with a Bodyguard unit they have decent LD and hatred. That's pretty tough. Plus, you can use Preachers to bolster Fanatics and other units like a commissar. Again, pretty tough.

We seem to be mostly in agreement about the troops side of things. However, I feel there would be an element of the Cult that had some basic fighting experience (gangs, bandits, former PDF) that would be the core of there fighting forces. That's the Cultist Coven. People with no fighting experience would only be used as meat shields in a fight, hence Rabble. Instead of troops, I placed Fanatics as Elites.

I guess hounds shouldn't be as tough as Fenrisian wolves or Chaos Hounds. WS 3 sounds good.

The LaTD list does what you propose with transports. If the traitors take a chimera/rhino, then they become fast attack. However, I feel such vehicles would be limited and instead they would have land crawlers and trucks.

I know what you mean about the Cavalry. I'm still not sure they fit. Perhaps, a Feral World Primitive Cult list option. However, I suppose the options are their to equip the Cultists like primitives all ready. Perhaps I will add the option of Xeno Mounts as well.

Scouts, I see that as the role of the Infiltrators. Not many of the cult members would have the needed skills. I will have to consider this as they seem to have a place in the list.

Your Heavy Support Choices are excellent. I especially like the Beast Stampede idea. I will work on incorporating these Heavy Support options into the Codex.

I feel that there are more potential Cult varients out there then the big three. They are Genestealer, Chaos (4 powers and undivided), Witch, Enslaver, Vampire, Imperial, and Machine-God. I am also contemplating a T'au Political Action Committee as well (I know, not a true cult).

Great examples of potential Doctrines there. Those are food for thought. Makes me want to create a Structure and Faith system. Structure changes what units are available to you and your List choices while Faith would allow you to pay points for upgrades and specific wargear. For example, you could choose an Imperial Structure (Which would allow Zealots per the CA) and choose Faith Miltiary Coup (Which may give you access to Bolt Weapons, Plasma, Melta and other military grade hardware) and Burn the Unclean (Which would allow hatred for +3 points per model).

Overall, Great post Chem-dog. If got my mental juices cooking and boiling over.

Easy E
07-01-2006, 02:21
While Chem- Dog was writing his great post I put together this Vampire Cult structure. I am really unsure about the Thralls. Should they stay or should they go? i am not sure they fit in with the theme of Vampires in 40K.

Chem-Dog
07-01-2006, 08:36
I'm glad it was of some use, I've been fiddling around with the general concept since the early 2nd edition, never getting much resolved. I'll reply in Kind.
Prophet/Demagogue, simply a definition issue,
Prophet:Individual who is thought to be a divinely inspired messenger from a god, or is believed to possess the power to foretell future events, definitely the kind of individual found at the head of a Cult.
Demagogue:A political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument. A useful ally for a prophet.
It's not really an issue, practically any Cult will change the names anyway, he'll be a Magus for 'stealers for example.

Upgrades are an easy issue, you can divide them between "Squad Upgrades" and "Army Upgrades", individual units can have upgrade options (like a Space Marine Veteran squad's Veteran skill options) and the "doctrine" style upgrades which (depending on the option) can be applied to appropriate units as you see fit OR become obligatory upgrades for certain units (like Doctrines). This should help avoid the Generic-ness of the units, although I'm trying to assemble a cult list without turning to one of the specialised lists,a Generic Cult army if you will.

Low tech doesn't mean unplayable, I'm a firm believer of the principal that an armies weaknesses are as much of it's character as it's strengths and if a Cult has trouble taking on heavy armour that fits the idea I have of Cult armies (almost every time we read about a Cult in 40K fiction it's usually poorly equipped). Necromunda is a little bit of a red herring, Hive primus is the trade hub of an entire Sector of Imperial space, heavy trading goes on there and everybody knows you can get anything in a port town. It wouldn't be hard to have the "Trader Contacts" upgrade which represents the cults improved chances of aquiring rarer weapons or "Military Contacts" with similar effects.
I'm trying to work from a lowest common denominator, This army is a largely civilian force without regular access to military equipment.

We are on the same page with Psyker powers, again I'm just thinking about the non appendix option, perhaps a basic psyker option that can be boosted by the type of Cult he's leading.

Funny how we like the option to put him on a mount but have trouble with the idea of including rough-riders in the army.

With the HQ option I was looking at a way of themeing the army, perhaps to reflect the Leader's background (perhaps he was a Soldier and continues to lead the elements of the army loyal to him, maybe he's a civilian who walks among the people, sticking with cult mobs) and possibly maxing out on a particular option with an additional squad of a chosen type, it's not not something that's vital by any means, just a nice little quirk. It would enable you to have a totally rabble army or a total PDF army.

Again I was looking for the non specific option. But yes, I agree, Elites would almost definitely be drawn from a specific list (like purestrains for the Stealers). I think a Chaos Cult's Elite Choices would surely be Daemons though.

Diciples would be more driven than your average man, I'm talking about an additional attack or something, perhaps just lifting the Hardened veteran choice from the Guard Codex would be more suitable (I did want to avoid making this army resemble the Guard in any real way). I wasn't looking at the inclusion of other elements to be honest, but they would deffinitely benefit from their inclusion (I don't like the commissar stand in rule to be honest).

The element of the cult that would have any real combat experience would be the Unit that I've called Soldiers, these can easily represent Gangs, PDF squads, Guardsmen or even Hunters/Trappers, they wouldn't necessarily be Soldiers but they would be the most capable in this field. Cultists, for me, would be your general citizen either indoctrinated or caught up in the excitment, roused by the Leaders' Charismatic Oratory but only dangerous to anybody but themselves in large numbers. With Fanatics, their units would be small in number and would need 1 cultist mob to include a single squad (you could easily say that the fanatics don't count to your compulsory troops choices, you could even say they can't claim objectives and cannot be counted as surviving troops etc etc) but otherwise they have similar stats to the regular cultist, hardly Elite, but I do see your point.

The LatD list makes you put transport mounted Traitor units in the Fast attack section of the army, I'm suggesting that you buy transports from the FA section and give them to whoever you want (to continue with the LatD comparison, you could buy a transport and give it to the Mutant squad.

Primitive world list, perhaps this is one of the "flavour" variables we should look at "World Type/Tech Level". Rather than having Xeno mounts, perhaps the world type could affect what steeds you can have? (actually I think we are getting a little too involved here).

Scouts, the job is done by the unit designated as "Soldiers", they have the option to infiltrate, perhaps an option to upgrade to have the scout skill too.

Heavy support choices, I quite like them too, they could definitely be used to "flavour" the army too, suddenly I can imagine a nomadic people travelling with the dusty wilds following their herds of <insert alien cattle creature name here> suddenly attacking the heretical settlers at the behest of their great prophet etc.

Cult Variants, regardless of how many chaos teams there are, chaos counts as one option (different patrons are still an option).
Witch would probably be the generic list (it would be nice to play around with the rules for an Alpha level Psyker).
Enslaver is a little bit too marginal in my opinion, could possibly be covered by the generic list, it could technically cover any army (except possibly necrons).
Vampire, I have to say I'm not a fan of actual Vampires in 40K, perhaps we could say Death Cultists (possibly Chaos or Imperial) as they are often Haemovores, Vampire would then be a description of practice rather than one of species.
Imperial, to be honest I was thinking Redemptionist, I'm a seasoned gang leader from House Cawdor, but there are a few other sub-cults within the imperium that could be covered.
Machine God, I think this is best left to a Adeptus Mechanicus army list rather than a cult army, A C'tan worshiping cult might work though.
Gue'vesa army, Hmm, is this becoming Codex Rebels? Cults included.

Moving on from structure and faith (good concept deffinitely) the type of world your cult (or rebel army) comes from could have an effect on your force disposition a feral world might only have livestock to supply, there could be a wealth of riding animals and cattle (of varying descriptions and sizes) but very little industry, so there could be riders, herds and Gigantic beasts but no vehicles (or very few, I did think that Gigantics could pull large cars), perhaps a Mining colony has lots of machinery (industrial Machines and transports) but it's totally toxic and no flora or fauna can survive (riders, herds and gigantics, maybe even hounds), perhaps this level of detailing is best left to the Gamer.

The post got long again . . .

That's about all I have for now, I'll try to knock together an example of the "Build your own tank" for next time.

IncubiLord
10-01-2006, 20:33
Well, here comes a long-winded post.

IG Conscripts are probably the lowest you want the human stats to go, as these are unskilled draftees and even the rules used for young Cadians.
As such, I have a bit of trouble accepting the general I2 of the army and the S2/T2 of the Rabble.

Trucks should probably be AV9 on the sides and rear. In the VDR they say that AV9 is for unarmored/civvie vehicles and, while I could see a heavily modified plow blade adding +1 to the front armor I don't see how they would reinforce the rest of the truck discreetly. The same may apply to Technicals, but I might buy into them having extra armor bolted onto the rest of the vehicle since they can't carry troops.

A preacher should make a unit he joins immune to pinning, otherwise his personal immunity is worthless.

Hounds are a step down from basic Hormagaunts. While they're probably fine as far as stats go (though you'll note that Chaos hounds and DE warp beasts are both stronger), gaunts have twice the maximum unit size (plus a couple) for a reason. Any army should be able to slaughter 15 guard Calvary models before they reach CC. 30 would be a bit more of a threat when they got there too.

A heavy stubber option on the Horsemen seems a bit odd. If they are riding horses for mobility, they should have another assault weapon rather than a heavy weapon. Maybe a storm bolter? I'd be more inclined to give them an Ork big shoota than a move-or-fire gun.
Why can't Horsemen take Frag AND/or Krak?

Demolitions Covens need a way to get close. Infiltrate, Deep Strike, a truck option, or even the Scouts USR would make them much more likely to be a useful unit. I'd also consider going to every third model may have a Demo Charge. This would allow the player to either make one sure kill with 5 charges or hold a couple back and have a use for the unit after the first throw.

Limiting the number of Scavenged Vehicles to the number of PDF units might be a good idea. Most cults shouldn't be able to take as many Leman Russ as an IG army.

I don't think the Catachan Traps rule works well, as it only applies to Wooded areas. Maybe allowing the Cult to buy and place booby traps and minefields. They could buy something like 0-3 Booby Traps, 0-1 Minefield, and 0-6 Dummy Counters as one HS choice. Placing ten potential trap counters on the field as a HS choice could be a fun option, even if it's not the most combat-effective.

As with any rules dev thread, feel free to ignore any/all of my opinion on the matter. ;)

Easy E
30-01-2006, 22:22
I haven't had a lot of time to work on this so I apologize.

Rabble have the same stats as Gretchin. Therefore, game mechanics- wise they fall into line. This are really non-combatants forced/fooled onto the battlefield to be exploited as meatshields.

AV 9 probably represents a civilian vehicle, but a guy can run up to a truck and punch it, and it could potentially explode. I think I would like to avoid this happening. AV 10 is the lowest I will go for a combat vehicle. It is all ready open topped to reflect their fragile nature.

Preacher changes have been noted.

The Hounds unit max size wil be increased.

Big Shoota on Horseman can be removed. I don't think there would be a lot of other assault weapons that the cult would have access too. I think the reasoning behind frag/OR krak was that I wanted to limit a lot of military gear. Otherwise, you might as well play IG.

Demolition Coven get close by hiding behind Meathshield Rabble, with the the Rabbles special rules to impart Inv. saves to unit behind. That or you distract your opponenet with other units/fast attack.

Yes, the number of scavenged units should be limited, or made so they can not be duplicates, i.e. 1 leman Russ, 1 chimera, 1 Hellhound, 1 squad of 3 sentinels, etc.

Yyour right about the Traps rules. I read them closer an saw they only worked in Jungles. I was hoping for a more general rule that could be placed anywhere on the board. Perhaps the same general trap stats, but different ways of placing or triggering them.

Easy E
03-02-2006, 22:48
I've been thinking about the Codex:Cults a bit more. I have decided the following:

All Cult armies must choose one Theology. Essentially, this is the type of cult that is going to be represented by the list. This will give them access to special units above and beyond the basics in the Codex. The basic elites choices have also been removed so no Infiltrators of Zealots remain in that slot. Elite choices will be filled by applying Dogmas, and Theology special rules.

Example Theologies are:
Chaos- These can be further divided into the big four and undivided. This will provide access to a special Chaotic wargear and Marks of Chaos. In addition, They will have access to 0-2 demon pack/demonic beasts unit as elites, Possessed HQ, 0-1 Spawn as Heavy, and Blessed Mutants as Troops.

Genestealers- Mandatory Magus OR patriarch HQ. Purestrains as Elites, Hybrid as 0-2 Troops, Special pschic powers and wargear. One required Dogmas of Brood Bond.

Enslaver- Only HQ allowed is the Enslavers. They may make choices from Codex: IG. These IG choices must be controlled per the Enslaver special rules, and they can not be the minimum FOC requirements.

Vampire- Vampire HQ is mandatory, and only one maybe taken. Allowed Zombie per creature feature as Elites choice. Mutants allowed as 0-1 troops choice.

Witch- Allowed to have mutants as troops. Must be lead by a Rogue Psyker or Possessed HQ. They are also allowed Gibbering Hordes as Elites. Spawn as 0-1 heavy.

Imperials- Imperials are allowed Zealots as Elites. They may also choose an Inquisitor (not Inquisitor lord) as an HQ choice.

Machine God- Allowed Enginseer as HQ. Pit slaves as Elites, Cyber-Mastiffs as Fast Attack.

Mundane- Allowed 1 additional Dogma

Easy E
03-02-2006, 23:14
Now, each Cult list will also be able to chose up to 3 dogmas (except Genestealers; who may only chose 2 as one is mandatory for them, and Mundane Cults as they have access to 1 additional Dogma). These Dogmas represent the cults interpretations of their theology and local conditions for the cult.

Some Examples:
The flesh is weak- The Cult feels that mortal flesh is inherently flawed from birth. As a result, they attempt to minimize these flaws through bionic modification. Any Coven may upgrade all of it's members with Bionics for +3 points per model.

We are legion- The Cult has many, many, many followers and emphasize as a community. As a result, any Cultist Coven or Rabble unit can be upgraded to a horde at +3 pts per model. As a horde, the unit is recycled once it is destroyed as per the meat grinder scenario.

Unlock the powers of the mind- The cult delves into arcane mysteries and sorcery. As a result, they have many low-level psykers in the cult. Any Coven can be upgraded to a Witch Coven at +5 pts. per model. The Coven Squad leader may also be allowed 1 minor psychic power at +10 points. As a witch coven, they are allowed to use 1 Psychic bolt per three living members of the coven per turn (rounding down) instead of shooting. A psychic test is made, but if failed, each point over reduces the Coven size by 1 due to exhaustion. The Coven also is moved to the Heavy Support slot.

We are the Noble Savage- The cult believes in a simpler lifestyle similar to the ways of tribesman. As a result, any Coven maybe to have 2 close Combat weapons for +1 pt per model, or a Great Weapon for +2 pts per model.

The Unbeliver is Not Worthy- The cult finds all non-believers repulsive, and considers them less than dirt. A coven maybe upgrade with hatred for +1 point per model. The coven can hit all opponents on a 3+ in close combat. However, the opponents can also hit them on a 3+ in combat, as the cultists are heedless to the dangers while in their hate filled rage.

The Sweet Here After Awaits you!- The cult feels that an after-life of bliss awaits the devoted followers. As a result, any Cultist Coven maybe upgraded to be Fearless for +3 points per model. They Coven then becomes an Elite choice.

The Prepared Ones Will Inherit- The cult belives that they must be ready to throw off the shackles of the unbeliever in a holy war. They prepare themselves spiritually and physically. Any Cultist Coven can be upgraded to Vehicle Hunters for +2 points per model. They are then moved to a Heavy Slot.

Tear Down the Fleshy Walls of Unbelief- The cult feels that the flesh is what blocks others from attaining enlightenment. Remove the flesh, and you remove disbelief. In combat, they are terrifying as they ferociously rend and claw at their foes. Any Cultist Coven maybe upgraded with Ferocious Charge at +2 points per model. This will make the coven an elite choice.

I have other examples as well, but I think I will end it here and get some feedback.

Easy E
11-02-2006, 00:38
Here ae some proto-type units I was devising based on some of the suggestions of Chem-dog. Let me know what you think.

Sonofsigmar
13-02-2006, 04:04
Wow, what a cool idea. I really like what you are doing, but have a few ideas to throw out there as well.

1. with regards to the feral stuff like the beastheards and calvary, maybe that should be its own theology or dogma slot. It would seem odd to have a stampede and gun trucks or example in the same list.

2. I think there should also be a dogma for "wealthy backers" not all cults are dirt poor, think slaaneshi, which typically ensnares the rich and high society. This could also go for genestealers as they will try to infect the most powerful individuals. Maybe allow the, full weapon options (lascannons, plasma, etc) and access to storm troopers, or rhinos/chimeras, but disallow the the poorer stuff, (crawlers, trukks, rabble, etc).

Just a couple of ideas.

SoS

Chem-Dog
13-02-2006, 06:44
That's cool. I'd change the beast herd slightly, I don't see why they should hit on a charge at strength 7 (I can understand it for the living tank, just not for the small guys). You could give them a couple of possible upgrades, Horns, Bony armour, even fleet-of-whatever. Instead of auto wounding the creatures, how about inflicting a hit at half of the Armour value it was ramming (rounding up) with the creatures basic save allowed, especially if the charge strength bonus is reduced.
The Living Tank, I'd like to see a transport option for them as well.

Good call on calling the tweak rules "dogma" very nice.
I agree with what sonofsigmar said about the beasties, When I first thought of these guys I imagined cavalry herding large creatures from feeding ground to feeding ground, simple nomads with their strange faith and customs . . .
Perhaps beast (herd and living tank) could have a limit tied into the inclusion of something else, cavalry for example, then the appropriate dogma would release you from that limit on some way (like making cavalry a troops choice).

Sonofsigmar, Kudos on the sig.

Easy E
13-02-2006, 23:16
You guys are so demanding!;)

I like what both of you said.

I am currently trying to develop some more dogma. Some of them will enable access to the better gear. Some of those proto-type units listed above will only be accessible by choosing a dogma. I haven't finsihed working out all of the details.

As for the rushing attack, these were taken from the Creature Feature directly. However, you are correct about the rushing attack being potentially too strong for the herds as that could be a lot of armor penetrating attacks. I will have to take a look at other options. I didn't think of giving them unit upgrades. That is a good idea.

The Living Tank could be given transports capacity. I was thinking up to 10 cultists could be transported.

Back to the Creature Feature and VDR for me. As always, thanks for the great feedback!

Easy E
14-02-2006, 06:07
Here is some proto-type Theologies for Vampire Cults, Enslavers, and Genestealers. What do you think?

Chem-Dog
16-02-2006, 07:23
I like the ideas, Never going to agree to 40K vampires though :p

I've been wondering about the Big beasties in general too, of course the mega large mammoth/squiggoth equivalent is apealing, but what about a smaller variety, they'd still be big and nasty, but I'm thinking Carnosaur/Steggadon size.

Dogmas:
The flesh is weak- bionics might be a little too much, how about "cyber implants" as in the IG codex?

We are legion- I like the recycling idea, but make it automatically available to any unit that is a certain size or over, encourage massive squads (rather than allowing small squads to benefit). This should also limit the inclusion of units that aren't numerous, like vehicles.

Unlock the powers of the mind- How about giving the cults options on what power to use? either buying specific powers or randomly rolling them at the start of the battle?? Keep the idea of loosing members when test is failed. I'm none too familiar with psychic powers in 40K as I don't use them, but perhaps allow them to expend members on a psychic save

We are the Noble Savage- Shouldn't great/combat weapons be a commonly available upgrade?

The Unbeliver is Not Worthy- Preffered Enemy USR.

The Sweet Here After Awaits you!- Yes, I like it when it's simple, using a USR and making a unit with it elite. perfect.

The Prepared Ones Will Inherit- I'd be tempted to move them to elites, not heavy.

Tear Down the Fleshy Walls of Unbelief- Change the name to something like "Against you the Infidel cannot stand"

Zzarchov
04-03-2006, 05:13
I hope this isn't threadomancy as I actually have something useful to add.

One list that may help you with this (or you may wish to colaborate with) is the "Codex Insurgency" list available on the Genestealer Cults Yahoo Groups.

It allows alot for what you want with a much simpler, yet still fully customizable way (with many units that really add character).

One other good thing is it is to be updated like clockwork with playtesting changes. Give it a look, you'll have to join the group.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/GenestealerCults/