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big squig
18-05-2009, 06:43
Simple question really. I'm not a big fantasy player, so maybe there's something I'm missing, but paying nearly the cost of a giant for three river trolls or stone trolls that are LD3, stupid, low WS, low I, and no armor (even though they regen) seems like a terrible idea.

Keep in mind I only play Night Goblins, so I don't use orc characters...

Urgat
18-05-2009, 07:48
They're awesome, my (four) river trolls always stay around my common gob general, sure, they fail the odd stupidity test, but they can take chaos knight charges and win the combat (they regen AND -1 to hit, which is golden). I'm never leaving town w/o them, waaaaay more durable and hitty (on average) than a giant. Won't all disappear because of one lucky canon shot either.
But yeah, with a night goblin general... but it's not the trolls fault, it's your decision if you wanna stick to night gobs.

PeG
18-05-2009, 07:58
Havent played with them but against them. A giant usually doesnt really bother me. It is easy to shoot/magic to death long before it gets into combat. If you take two then I will have to start thinking about....


Trolls on the other hand have a tendency of staying around. Also failing a few stupid tests still moves them against my lines. At least they require a lot more shooting to get rid of than the giant leaving more time for other units to get into combat.

Chicago Slim
18-05-2009, 12:49
Trolls will eat heavy cavalry, in ways that Giants definitely will not.

Makaber
18-05-2009, 12:52
Sure they have their weaknesses (though I think it's wrong to point out lack of armour as one of them, when they do, indeed, regenerate), but all things considering they're very cheap for what they can do. Just keep them close to the general, and remember that they don't test for stupidity once they're in combat, so it's best to get them stuck in early. In my book, Trolls are some of the better monsters.

Considering how difficult they are to shift, they make good bodyguards for characters, which also helps out with their leadership-shortcomings. T10 used to run a Goblin hero Battle Standard Bearer on Gigantic Spider, in a regiment of trolls wide enough that he could maximise models into combat with Trolls alone, the Goblin being safe outside of combat on the extreme edge of the unit. Another classic is of course items that cause Stupidity on the wearer, such as Helm of Many Eyes and the Battle Brew.

Finally, a friend of mine runs a large unit of six Chaos Trolls, meaning the unit is so large you simply cannot ignore it, however pouring missile fire and magic at them just causes them to regenerate and thus improve. By the time you manage to kill two of the Trolls, the remaining four usually pack a couple of rolls on the Eye of the Gods table. And it's surprisingly affordable, too.

Da GoBBo
18-05-2009, 13:48
Mine tend to screw up stupidity no matter what I try :cries: River trolls are really tough and really worth it. Stone trolls are nice verusus spells that cover the whole field which is not not usefull in most battles. It's not worth 20 points per troll. Take one if ye have 60 points and a rarechoice left and hide im in the bush? Even than I's prefer a single river troll close to your generals unit.


T10 used to run a Goblin hero Battle Standard Bearer on Gigantic Spider, in a regiment of trolls wide enough that he could maximise models into combat with Trolls alone, the Goblin being safe outside of combat on the extreme edge of the unit.

I have a question on the above. Maybe its a 5th edition rule, but I though characters need to be in the center of your rank.

Rokkit
18-05-2009, 13:49
There's also the use of the single troll. While I haven't tried this tactic myself yet, you should be able to use it to support other units' combats, holding up enemy units, diverting, war machine hunting and, to some degree, character hunting.

As usual, see Avian's O&G Family Bible (tactica) (http://folk.ntnu.no/~tarjeia/avian/tactics/small_monsters.php) for more info. ;)

Urgat
18-05-2009, 14:01
Stone trolls are nice verusus spells that cover the whole field which is not not usefull in most battles.

It's doesn't even work anymore thanks to the new faq. The stone upgrade is worthless.

Shiodome
18-05-2009, 14:17
i keep meaning to use trolls more. so far i've only used them as a single model charge diverter, and backup. last game a single troll got charged by 5 khorne knights and a lord on juggernaut and only lost 1 wound (epic luck) and did 1 wound in return... so lost combat by little enough to pass his break test (on generals ld ofc).

but that was ridiculous dice rolls... no real experience of them normally. i want to use 3 trolls as part of my main line (O&G). but they just seem a bit weak?

Storak
18-05-2009, 14:40
It's doesn't even work anymore thanks to the new faq. The stone upgrade is worthless.

true. 20 points would be ok now for an upgrade for the whole unit. (a magic item would about that price, with a reduction for being only usable on this special unit) but 20 points per troll is simply insane.
(and it is even similar with river trolls: mark of nurgle is 30 points for a unit of ogres..

selone
18-05-2009, 14:49
I wouldn't stay stone upgrade is worthless entirely but its probably not worth 20 points. Enemies will ocasionaly, (probably once per game until they realize they have MR) target them with a spell especially a flaming spell and the MR helps there. I've also seen them make their armour save no matter how pesky.
Just to reiterate whilst 20 points per troll is probably not worth it, it's not entirely worthless.

I quite like the common troll as it provides things the On'G army sorely lacks- punch and fear. Just make sure they're within your generals leadership and I'd highly recommend against using them with night gobbo as general, mind I'd higly recommend against a night gobbo general but hey! ;)

Urgat
18-05-2009, 15:55
but that was ridiculous dice rolls... no real experience of them normally. i want to use 3 trolls as part of my main line (O&G). but they just seem a bit weak?
Weak? My river troll unit either dishes out 12 S5 attacks, or 4 autohit S5 attacks w/o saves... I've yet to find a unit or even a monster that feels confident it can take that with no risk.


I wouldn't stay stone upgrade is worthless entirely but its probably not worth 20 points. Enemies will ocasionaly, (probably once per game until they realize they have MR) target them with a spell especially a flaming spell and the MR helps there. I've also seen them make their armour save no matter how pesky.

Yeah, well, the MR only works as a deterrant. Your opponent knows their stone trolls (they should, heh, either it's the right minis or you tell beforehand), they know they got MR2, so they just won't cast at them... or they'll cast burning head, and then you can watch that spell you paid 20pts/model (so 80 for me, I always take units of 4) being useless against the very thing I bought it for. yeap, with the new brilliant faq, you can't use your MR against burning head or such spells, since it doesn't specifically target the trolls. "I aim in that general direction, towards your trolls, but of course I'm not targeting them, I want to burn some grass!"

Shiodome
18-05-2009, 16:24
yeah weak... on the same frontage as your 4 trolls, 8 black orcs/savage orcs/biguns all deal out more damage for (significantly) fewer points. i know they have 3 wounds + reg, but i'm not convinced that swings the balance enough to make them more worthwhile than taking another solid block of orcs.

edit: i'm not saying trolls suck though, i'm just unsure about them in my list atm.

selone
18-05-2009, 17:20
You'd be suprised how many people wouldn't know they had MR2 and a 5+ save. Anyways a deterrent isn't a bad thing and for every burning head, theres a fireball and flickering fires of tzeentch. I dont think the stone troll upgrade is perhaps worth the 50% cost upgrade but its not worthless.
Isn't 4 trolls too much frontage? I'm tempted for a unit of 1 (the unpanicable troll) or 3 for bashyness but I can't see how youd get 4 in B2B

Urgat
18-05-2009, 17:50
My trolls rush straight at tough things like knights, four trolls fit well. In some cases ( heavy cavalry fielded six-wide), I wish I had five, actually, but I can't just inflate my trolls infinitely :p

Shiodome: That's arguable. Trolls dael S5 all the time, while blorcs and big'uns do that only one turn. They're also way tougher, I wouldn't look forward to having my blorcs charged in the front, while I often use my trolls as bait, putting them right on front of the nastiest thing. Few resist (excepted my bro's berts and my best friend's chaos warriors. They both know they must avoid the trolls at all costs). Anyway, I can't really say anything other than "try them out", mine have very rarely let me down, and it's always been because of some mistake of mine (crushing black knights when I knew fully well that I'd get flanked by zombies on the next turn, silly, silly me ><) or because of abysmal dice rolls (ok so your knights dealt... what, 9 wounds? ok I regenerate... zero wounds. Cool.").
I really love my trolls, I have three giants, I never field them anymore, they've never achieved a tenth of mwhat my trolls have done. They've eaten about everything the game had to offer: vampires, black coaches, Louen Leoncoeur (nyark), giants, ogres, chaos knights, the old edition chosen knights, grail and pegasus knights, ratmen of all sizes, everything really. A couple dragons too iirc. They're the deadliest unit in my gaming group.
Of course they have weaknesses, the stupidity, the low WS (but then if it may be an issue, they vomit :p), but the main one is large blocks of weak troops. My trolls don't fare too well against gobs or clanrats, things like that. But it's rare people don't send the tastiest morsels at them, thinking that they'll be easy VPs to mow down.
But maybe it is a blessing in disguise: many people seem to think like you, they look at my army and say "you took trolls? You didn't take giants?" and they like totally underestimate them. Too bad for them.

Keller
18-05-2009, 18:28
I have a question on the above. Maybe its a 5th edition rule, but I though characters need to be in the center of your rank. The only stipulation on characters is that they need to be in the front rank. Except for Skaven, of course, who can choose to hide in the rear of the unit. I like to keep my characters on the corners of units, so they can fight to the front or side, in case of a flank charge they don't need to waste time moving to the fighting rank (unless its the other side, I guess.)

The unit's standard, on the other hand, do need to be towards the center, but that doesn't really matter.

Shiodome
18-05-2009, 18:45
heh, i've no plans to take giants anyway, just don't fit in with the green horde... the O&G book has spoilt me though, i practically faint if i have to spend more than 10 points on a model :P took me ages to succumb to spear chukkas because they were THIRTY FIVE points! :o

Kovinth
18-05-2009, 19:03
While I don't run a night goblin general, I wouldn't even consider trolls if I did. At LD9, I think they fail their stupidity test about as often as other units squabble.

Each point of lowered LD makes them so much more likely to fail stupidity.. I just wouldn't even consider it as it would make them far too unreliable. Even beyond normal O&G standards.

big squig
18-05-2009, 20:34
Couple of quick questions. Trolls cause fear, so if a unit fears a river troll and need's 6s to hit, what happens? Can they roll 7's? Or is the 7 rule only for shooting?

What about Gork Will Fix It? Since the unit needs 6's to hit, but 6's count as ones, can they not attack?

selone
18-05-2009, 20:40
I have no idea about the first part but on the second yes I think they can't hit.

Makaber
18-05-2009, 20:48
I have a question on the above. Maybe its a 5th edition rule, but I though characters need to be in the center of your rank.

I certainly don't think so. I remember command having to be in the unit centre before, but they went away from that. I think the same applies to characters.

Avian
19-05-2009, 14:25
Couple of quick questions. Trolls cause fear, so if a unit fears a river troll and need's 6s to hit, what happens?
They hit on 6s. Rulebook page 34, right column, last sentence of third paragraph.

WarlockOMork
19-05-2009, 14:37
can they not attack?

Sure they can attack, any 6's they'd roll would be counted as 1's tho. :p

And for the Troll vs Giant comparison.

Might be my luck but...
My Trolls tend to keep standing vs most missile fire that would reduce my to a pincushion, or a flat grease stain.

Grimbrow
19-05-2009, 14:54
Totally agree - compared to a nice unit of trolls, a giant is an expensive pincushion waiting to happen.

selone
19-05-2009, 14:56
I'll jump on the bandwagon on that too. Giants are one shooting phase away from free VP's.

Da GoBBo
19-05-2009, 15:00
Yet your other units saty untouched for a while. If that's worth a 205 points to ye, take a giant :)

MarcoPollo
19-05-2009, 16:18
Giants may have a bullseye on them, but they can sneak in and out of the tighter places on a battle field alot easier than a 4 wide troll unit. This is important if you play MSU. If you are playing against an army with alot of shooting, just keep the giant in reserve behind some trees until it can be useful.

Granted, the discussions here have made me consider the trolls a little more favorably now.

Urgat
19-05-2009, 18:03
Giants may have a bullseye on them, but they can sneak in and out of the tighter places on a battle field alot easier than a 4 wide troll unit. This is important if you play MSU. If you are playing against an army with alot of shooting, just keep the giant in reserve behind some trees until it can be useful.

That's the one single point that make me consider giants from times to times, they're way more manoeuvrable.
As for diverting fire, trolls do that too very well once your opponent knows how much they hurt, but with the additional bonus of usually surviving more than one round of fire (or three).

Dexter099
20-05-2009, 02:47
You may not roll 7's to hit, the section on how you are allowed to do so in shooting is not in the close combat section of the rulebook.

2theDeath
25-05-2009, 14:55
I was going to include a Giant in my O&G army I'm currently putting together...
However I'm now reconsidering, to be honest the main reason i was going to include a Giant as apposed to Trolls is purely down to the look, i personally think that the GW Trolls aren't that good.. they seem a bit limp & remind me of slightly melted Orcs, they certainly don't strike fear into me.

However after reading this thread & finding the Trolls in this place:

http://www.artemisblacks.com/gamezone/orcs.shtml

(I especially like the one using the ripped up horse as a weapon:evilgrin:)

...... My mind has been changed,

I'm so fickle:D

stonetroll
25-05-2009, 22:59
I think Trolls (of any type) are not bad in themselves (in fact, just looking at stats, they beat Giants hands down), but they just don't have a space in (my) Orc & Goblin army.

Trolls HAVE to be withing 12" of my general all the time. Spots within 12" of my general are usually quite cramped, as I also want my 4 Orc blocks and 2 N-Goblin blocks in there. If I stick my Trolls in front of one of the units in the 12" bubble and I screw up on stupidity I'm in really big trouble so that's a big no-go.

Giants on the other hand, are quite self-providing. I love to be able to have a model that can go out on his own (usually try keep him behind cover on flanks) and just give my opponent a headache, instead of being another unit that HAS to be in my main lines to be effective (O&G have enough of those imo).

I think the only really good use of a Troll in a O&G army comes into play the way Malorian uses them: a single troll used as a cheap, fear causing, redirecting throwaway unit.

One of my regular opponents plays WoC and quite regularly fields 4 trolls with great success. In that army they work great, because WoC do not suffer from Psychology as much as O&G do (MoS/MoK), so he can (realitvely) safely keep his general near his Trolls on a flank without worrying too much about his main line breaking from panic.

Harwammer
25-05-2009, 23:54
(BoC) Trolls hold buildings well, but you need to create motivation for the enemy to attack them. Having a missile thrower join the unit helps, or even better use lore of slaanesh to force the enemy to assault this very tough bunker.

I haven't used trolls for my OnG for a long time and haven't used them in WoC since HoC.

WarlockOMork
26-05-2009, 00:06
the problem is there are just so many other choices you also want to take.

as theyr all so nice.
(personaly i often go with the pump wagon, its also cheap and throw away like a single troll and can do awsome dmg to infantry almost equal to most giants on the charge. 2 for 1, and only 40pts :D )

Malorian
26-05-2009, 02:26
I would be lost without my single troll. He has saved me so many times I wouldn't be able to count it on both hands.

I have been tempted to drop him to open the spot for a second doom diver, but then I would also have to add another throw away unit to replace him which means another unit of wolves and more points.

If they were two for one like the pump wagons I would be all over that in a second (hell the doom diver might even be dropped so I could have 4 single trolls ;) )