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Warsmith Tharak
18-05-2009, 06:57
I have a couple of questions about the big, loud bastard.
Wounds from falling over counts towards combat resulusion, but what about wounds if he falls over when he loses a combat? Has the train left, or do you count them? In teory, in a multible battle, the chaos side loses with 2 points, since the giant is on the losing side he has to test if he fall over. If he falls over do the other unit lose with 3 points? If he falls over the enemy regiment and kills 5 models, do I suddently win the round?

And I wonderd about Yell and Bawl. It is written that no models in contact with the giant can fight. What about spears? The rule book states if one side wipes out the enemy the auto wins, and the chaos bok says the chaos ide auto wins if the giant yells. What if the spears kill him. Since army bok>rule book does the viktory side make a run for it? Or will the chaos side win only in a multible fight?

I know that it is some stupid questions, and I have my way of playing them, But I yust wantet to know what you thought???

WLBjork
18-05-2009, 07:16
You can't change the combat results.

If the giant loses the combat and falls over, the wounds inflicted do not count towards combat resolution as that has already been resolved.

I'd say the same for "Yell and Brawl" as well. The combat result is fixed, no matter what else happens.

Spearmen (and other units that can fight in ranks) can hit the Giant in the event of a "Yell and Bawl" result.

Milgram
18-05-2009, 07:23
if spearmen kill the giant after Y&B, then there is no combat resolution and therefore you don't lose - in a straight 1on1 close combat. with multiple units from the giant's side involved, the giant's side still wins by 2. if on both sides a giant is involved (and do not touch), then the first giant to Y&B takes precedence afaik - but I could be wrong on that one.

jaxom
18-05-2009, 15:44
Note that a mixed Skink-Krox unit will cause the Krox to fail to swing in the event of Y&B since the rules for the Krox define him as in B2B with the giant. Also remember that your own units in B2B with the giant will not attack (they don't like it any more than the enemy) and if you rack up loads of casualties (e.g. Giant and a unit of Chaos Knights on the charge) you still only win by 2.

In the event of multi-unit combat with two giants not in B2B with each other the Feb 2009 WoC FAQ actually defines that one as a push. Musicians do not apply in that case either so it is a push regardless of other units in combat.

Grimgormx
18-05-2009, 22:38
If the giant y&b the unit (not models) in base contact cant fight, that includes 2 rank spearmen, they are in the unit that cant fight, and if the rule says that models in btb cant fight, 2 nd rank of spearmen count as touching the unit ther front rank is touching.

Either way spearmen cant fight back.

WLBjork
19-05-2009, 03:52
Grimgormx, I checked the "Fight in Rank" rules before posting that (as I did think the same as you).

The wording is
If a unit is entitled to fight in this way then any model in a second or subsequent rank can fight if it is behind a model that is engaged in close combat (snip)

The spearmen (elves, pikemen or anything else) can strike the Giant as they are not in BTB, nor do they count as being in BTB.

Grimgormx
19-05-2009, 21:34
I dont have my O&G book (im in a bussines travel) can someone see if it says that the unit in BtB cant attack, or if the models in BtB cant attack. that will clarify all.

HE players, you dont have to worry, you will get to do your attacks because of your special rule "ladies first" but if the Giant gets the Y&B you will lose by 2 anyway.

Urgat
19-05-2009, 21:58
I clearly remember it says "models in base to base contact". yell and bawl is most often a very bad thing to roll, really, anyway.

ZoomDog
19-05-2009, 22:13
Neither the Giant nor models in contact with him actually fight if they have not already done so this round.
So second rank spearmen can still fight, as they aren't in contact with him.

Clegane
20-05-2009, 02:58
So second rank spearmen can still fight, as they aren't in contact with him.

I don't think that was ever in dispute.

The original question was, if the spears that aren't in BtB manage to KILL a lone Giant after he's already rolled Y&B as an attack, then how does CR work?

Page 37 of the BRB states that "If one side is completely wiped out in the fight, the other side is automatically the winner."

But the entry for Yell&Bawl very clearly states that, regardless of casualties inflicted, etc, the side opposing the Giant automatically loses by 2.

As the BRB directly conflicts with the ability as it is listed in the Army Book, it becomes a matter of which takes precedence. If my understanding is correct, specific special rules in Army Books ALWAYS take precedence over general rules in the BRB. If such is the case, then the opposing side would still have to make a break test at -2, despite the Giant being dead.

The real question here...is what sort of idiot charges a severely wounded giant (because he'd have to be hurt already to die to the three-four 2nd rank spearmen that got to attack) ALONE against the frontal arc of an entire block of spearmen?

Nurgling Chieftain
20-05-2009, 03:25
The giant doesn't (usually) have an armor save. Every so often, somebody just rolls a bunch of sixes. I've seen more giants put down by S3 CC attacks than anything else.

Anyway, I'm dubious that the giant's Y&B still applies after he's dead - my general feeling on the matter is that a model's special rules are gone once they leave the table except where very explicitly otherwise stated (for an immediately handy example, the giant falling down after he's dead). And I don't think "regardless of casualties" is specific enough to the case of the giant being dead, rather than a simple reference to the normal way of calculating combat resolution.

Plus, a unit running away from a dead giant is just stupid.

Clegane
20-05-2009, 03:31
Plus, a unit running away from a dead giant is just stupid.

Yeah...about as stupid as poisoned ninja stars that blow up chariots like Lascannons. ;) And we all know how THAT debate went down.

But more earnestly, I agree with you. I think that running from a dead giant rather defies the spirit of the game. I was just pointing out that, RAW-wise, it is a direct conflict between printed rules in an army book and the BRB. If you wind up playing against someone in the camp that believes such situations to be immutable, then they may try and plead the case. *shrug*

knightime98
20-05-2009, 05:28
So, what happens when a Giant Y&B against a chariot. The Giant out numbers the chariot and so, would not the chariot be on insane courage only or do they test just at a -2 with no other modifiers?

Edit: Take the same chariot with the result of head butt... Is it one member of the crew or is it all members of crew AND their steeds?? Talk about proof reading rules.. They leave so much out!

Next, if a Giant were vs. another Giant - why would the 2nd giant be phased by a Y&B... I think if anything he might laugh and fall down... OR Brain the first giant in the head.. It'd be a 50/50..

Milgram
20-05-2009, 06:10
knightime... great questions as always.

I think the first question answers itself when you reread the rules about outnumbering by fearcausing enemy.

the second question is also clearly stated in the wording. the target is the chariot. if it survives it can't strike back.

the third question is... well... you want to talk about proof reading rules... then what is this third question? fluff?

thank you, come again.

Urgat
20-05-2009, 07:13
Plus, a unit running away from a dead giant is just stupid.

Not if he's about to fall on you :p

knightime98
20-05-2009, 09:26
knightime... great questions as always.

I think the first question answers itself when you reread the rules about outnumbering by fearcausing enemy.

the second question is also clearly stated in the wording. the target is the chariot. if it survives it can't strike back.

the third question is... well... you want to talk about proof reading rules... then what is this third question? fluff?

thank you, come again.

Retort to 1 -
Then why is it if the attackers side with the Giant wins by say 8.. you still only test with a -2 modifier.. Why Now all the sudden are you taking Insane Courage... (Sigh, read my signature)...

Retort to 2-
Unless you are High Elves with ASF... so, the giant head butts a chariot.. since when does he head butt all four models.. That's silly!

Retort to 3-
It wasn't really a question other than why would a giant be scared of another giant's Y&B??? Wouldn't he try to out do the other Giant?? That'd make sense. I think the 2nd giant would hit him across the head in mid Yell.. That's what I'd do!!!

Warsmith Tharak
20-05-2009, 09:50
Retort to 1 -
Then why is it if the attackers side with the Giant wins by say 8.. you still only test with a -2 modifier.. Why Now all the sudden are you taking Insane Courage... (Sigh, read my signature)...

Retort to 2-
Unless you are High Elves with ASF... so, the giant head butts a chariot.. since when does he head butt all four models.. That's silly!

Retort to 3-
It wasn't really a question other than why would a giant be scared of another giant's Y&B??? Wouldn't he try to out do the other Giant?? That'd make sense. I think the 2nd giant would hit him across the head in mid Yell.. That's what I'd do!!!

Fluff ansver for no 1: The enemy are to choght up with the yelling to notice the 3 ranks of gobbos next to it.

No 2: The chariot gets realy shaken and the crew hold on for dear life.

No 3: My guess is he tries to outdo the other, but is not as scary/loud.

Why would a greater daemon go poof becouse a simpel yell? Does it blows away the wind of magic???

Thanks for all replys:)

ZoomDog
20-05-2009, 10:01
I don't think that was ever in dispute.
I was responding to Grimgormx, he thought that even the second rank of spearmen couldn't fight.

Milgram
20-05-2009, 13:10
(Sigh, read my signature)...

when you are outnumbered by a fearcausing unit, it does not matter by what result you have lost. you need insane curage. so you lose by -5, you need snake eyes, you lose by -1 due to the musician, you need snake eyes... or would you argue, that if a unit of orcs loses to an outnumbering unit of skeletons, they automatically lose the combat by -5 as they have ld of 7 whilst elite elves would lose it by -7 as they have a ld of 9? that is the ONLY argumentation that would make Y&B a inconstant ruling in this case. and of course this argumentation is wrong.


as for the chariot: a smarter question would be 'why doesn't the giant use the small enemies list against a chariot?'. then I would tell you 'I don't know, but that's how it is'.


well, when it comes to Y&B then it is a mostly constant ruling, even from giant to giant. and now you complain about it? read your own signature.

Urgat
20-05-2009, 13:32
Then why is it if the attackers side with the Giant wins by say 8.. you still only test with a -2 modifier.. Why Now all the sudden are you taking Insane Courage... (Sigh, read my signature)...

Doesn't work like that, though, as Milgram pointed out. The rules (yeay, finally got my hands on a copy of the armybook, I'm never leaving these things behind again) say that you win the combat by two, not that the enemy must pass a test with -2. When a fear causing unit wins a fight over another non-fear causing enemy that is outnumbered, he autobreaks unless he rolls for insane courage. That's what happens here, the (non fear causing-kind) charriot loses combat against the fear causing giant, so it falls into the snake-eye deal.

T10
21-05-2009, 11:02
I have a couple of questions about the big, loud bastard.
Wounds from falling over counts towards combat resulusion, but what about wounds if he falls over when he loses a combat? Has the train left, or do you count them? In teory, in a multible battle, the chaos side loses with 2 points, since the giant is on the losing side he has to test if he fall over. If he falls over do the other unit lose with 3 points? If he falls over the enemy regiment and kills 5 models, do I suddently win the round?

And I wonderd about Yell and Bawl. It is written that no models in contact with the giant can fight. What about spears? The rule book states if one side wipes out the enemy the auto wins, and the chaos bok says the chaos ide auto wins if the giant yells. What if the spears kill him. Since army bok>rule book does the viktory side make a run for it? Or will the chaos side win only in a multible fight?

I know that it is some stupid questions, and I have my way of playing them, But I yust wantet to know what you thought???

Giant falls over when beaten in combat
The train has already left the station: Combat resolution is not further affected.

Yell And Bawl
Models armed with Fight in Ranks weapons get to fight if the model in front of them is engaged in close combat to its front. Wether or not the model in the first rank is allowed to make his attacks or not is not an issue.

This means that they are be allowed to fight the Giant.

The Giant's Yell and Bawl still counts even if the Giant is killed. At least he's not contributing his Unit Strength 6 when determining if your spearmen are outnumbered by Fear-causing enemies. Also, your unit does not take Break tests if all enemies it was fighting are dead, even though the unit lost the combat.

-T10

rtunian
21-05-2009, 19:16
how about a much more basic giant question?

when it falls over, it says to put the feet of the template at the base of the model...
-does that mean template feet should be right underneath the giant's torso?
-or should the feet be touching the edge of the model's actual base

thanks

T10
21-05-2009, 21:46
The actual base. Please.

-T10

Urgat
22-05-2009, 14:52
yeah, that would have been obvious to me a few years back, then i discovered you used the actual mini and not the base for dragon breaths. And I went WTF, btw. I plan to make a 20 headed dragon some day, so I can pick the hed with the optimal coverage when it breathes >>

Harwammer
22-05-2009, 15:08
yeah, that would have been obvious to me a few years back, then i discovered you used the actual mini and not the base for dragon breaths. And I went WTF, btw. I plan to make a 20 headed dragon some day, so I can pick the hed with the optimal coverage when it breathes >>

You could model the dragon with a rotating, telescopic neck. Not cheesy at all :D

Ultimate Life Form
22-05-2009, 15:40
You could model the dragon with a rotating, telescopic neck. Not cheesy at all :D

So we'll see Mecha-King Ghidorah soon?

Urgat
22-05-2009, 16:44
You could model the dragon with a rotating, telescopic neck. Not cheesy at all :D

Sounds amusing, but you know, you'd make a dragon with a two feet long neck, it'd still be legal :/