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VeriNasti
18-05-2009, 07:58
Hey,
I am thinking of starting a second fantasy army and i really like the idea of an undead theme. Could someone please tell me the pros/cons of doing either of these armies, as well as cost and competitveness?
Thanks

Ultimate Life Form
18-05-2009, 08:05
competitiveness: VC 100% TK 50%

VC pros:
Great variety in excellent models, mostly plastic (if you want to count that as pro), there's something for everyone! Vampires 100% customizable, allows you to field exactly the army you want and look good doing it. Very nasty builds possible!

VC cons:
Very nasty builds will destroy your friendships. Other than that... well, I can't think of much.

TK pros:
You can paint the entire army with but 3 or so colors!:p Unlike VC, they have a nasty shooting phase and magic that is 100% reliable.

TK cons:
Dated book (weak), dated models, much metal, boring look (I'm no fan of a monowhite army). Will be redone in the not so distant future, so it might be worth waiting for new rules and minis.

Nephilim of Sin
18-05-2009, 08:06
The common response I have seen is that Tomb Kings were more balanced before the power armies came out, but are suffering a little. Vampires, of course, are one of the power armies, so they are very competitive.

VC have the most advantages right now because they have the new army book, and new models, and are cheaper to field than they were before if you really break down the numbers with the new plastic sets they have out (not counting Blood Knights).

TK is a great themed army, probably quicker to paint as you have less flesh options, yet will probably be redone over the next few years. Unfortunately, at least to some, they still have the 'bigger' skeletons as their core models, which to some look out of place, and the limited sprue really only has a TK feel if you decide to go bows, as the weapons are the same as the previous VC skeletons.

It really also depends on the points level of the game you wish to play, as at lower point games TK are at a disadvantage with the characters they have to take. Still, TK are the only army to allow you to field regiments of chariots, and I personally like their Battalion box better than the VC. Considering you don't spam lots of summons as you do with VC, they are cheaper to collect as well (for the extra models you would need).

Sleazy
18-05-2009, 09:16
Do you want to get an army to win? In which case pick VC. If you prefer the fluff and themes then it all boils down to do you like Dracula over The Mummy?

Personally I prefer the whole look of Tomb Kings.

Ultimate Life Form
18-05-2009, 09:25
Do you want to get an army to win? In which case pick VC. If you prefer the fluff and themes then it all boils down to do you like Dracula over The Mummy?

Personally I prefer the whole look of Tomb Kings.

It's not that I have something against egyptian look or theme or mummy movies, quite the opposite holds true. It's just that I find an army that consists of 100% bones unpleasant to look at. Or maybe it's just the overbright studio army. Nonetheless, I think the army would greatly benefit from the addition of units of generic old school mummies just for the looks and a little variety. Maybe then I'd even start TK one day. But knowing GW, they're probably unable to do normal mummies and would do some overexaggerated two-headed four-armed shark-teethed warpstone-eyed cyclopian Chaos Mummies of doom. Considering that, we're probably better off without them...

The Red Scourge
18-05-2009, 11:03
It really just depends on whether you like mummies or vampires the best :)

VeriNasti
18-05-2009, 12:01
@ Red Scourge - well duh, that is the point of this thread:p
Most likely leaning towards varmpires
BTW, how expensive is each army and what are their core/special/rare/etc choices like generally?

Ultimate Life Form
18-05-2009, 12:23
@ Red Scourge - well duh, that is the point of this thread:p
Most likely leaning towards varmpires
BTW, how expensive is each army and what are their core/special/rare/etc choices like generally?

Well, I can't speak for TK, but I'll try to answer for VC.

First, the cost is determined by the number of models you need and therefore highly dependent on your army build. If you keep Core Units at minimum (30) and go for few heavy hitters, it shouldn't be too high.

Core consists of 3 different types of Rank&File with slightly different tactical uses, but generally nothing that lets you win. Also there are Dire Wolves which may be of tactical use, Corpse Carts which have a magic support role and Bat Swarms no one right in their mind will ever use.

Special has more elite things to boast; these are the killy stuff. Fell Bats are not too tough but may have a use against War Machines or as March Blockers. Spirit Hosts are ethereal and therefore have all sorts of unique applications, like invincible screening, binding Monsters forever and so on. Grave Guard and Black Knights are my favorite with a respectable Armor Save and the nasty Killing Blow. Boost them with Magic Items/ Banners to really annoy your opponent and give them a tough nut to crack.

Rare: The Varghulf is not as strong as it looks but it's fast and makes for an excellent flanker along with Dire Wolves. Cairn Wraith are again ethereal and the Banshee scares the hell outta the enemy; I have never used them though and cannot comment on them. Black Coach is a chariot that feeds on Power Dice and becomes really nasty later on. Blood Knights are an unstoppable force of destruction who really like the Regeneration Banner, or so I've heard.;) They are quite expensive though.

Ixquic
18-05-2009, 14:17
Taking the Banshee is paying 25 points to downgrade a Wraith. Since she's a champion she has to be in combat potentially displacing a much more useful Wraith and her scream attack is going to average maybe 1 wound against most troops since leadership 8 is the standard against the kind of stuff she is goo against like knights. Low leadership troops are generally so plentiful that is doesn't matter if she screams and kills 4.

Yes you occasionally roll box cars and and instagib a unit of Chaos Knights but generally the additional Wraith will be much more useful. I use one since I feel that it fits with my Lahmian theme but there's no reason if you are planning a competitive list. If she was free she might be ok but for 25 points you can get an additional Fel Bat which is much more useful.

The Red Scourge
18-05-2009, 20:22
@ Scourge - well duh, that is the point of this thread:P

No really its that simple. A quick scrolling through this forum and you'll see; VC=Broken, TK=Scrap. So that should answer your question regarding power level. Reading their army books should answer the other. So the only thing left is to decide whether you like vampires or mummies the most :)

Zoolander
18-05-2009, 22:17
I have been asked this question multiple times, as people know I play 7 armies, including both undead armies. Let me tell you emphatically, without a doubt in my mind, VC is the way to go. The army has more synergy, is easier to play, is more competitive, and the magic actually works. TK without a doubt is at the bottom of the powerbarrel along side Ogres and Beasts. They can be shut down with dispel scrolls, their units lack killing power for the most part, everything is too expensive except the scorpion, and they have no real way of dealing with certain enemy units such as bloodthirsters or steamtanks.

Seriously, I'd wait until the new TK book comes out next year, and see how they fair then. But if you can't wait, there here is my suggestion:

If you like losing a lot, and I mean a lot, go with TK. They have the steepest learning curve in the game, and are seriously outmatched by the newer armies. You will constantly be fighting an uphill battle. If you like to win once in a while, go with VC. As long as you don't go crazy with the magic, they are pretty balanced. Keep it at 10 PD or under and you will have fun. Trust me.

Red_Duke
18-05-2009, 22:45
As someone else who has both armies, id say if you're new to the game, don't go with either of them, and if you've been playing a while id reccommend TK. Vamps are Dull! Dull to play with, and to play against. They're certainly good, and win games, but then in a good players hands, TK can still do the business. as for steamtanks and bloodthirsters, thats what the catapults are for ;)

What i love about the TK is theyre a fast, dynamic army (well, mine is anyway), the chariot units can be great, and other than playing people with a truly horrendous magic defense (i.e. 8 or so DD or 4+ scrolls) the magic will generally get through when you need it, especially if you can wheedle out some scrolls early on with some less important stuff (like moving carrion and shooting catapults). It takes some finesse, but for me is much more rewarding to play with than ever the VC were.

As for fighting against the newer armies, i'm 6-0 against DE, and have around a 50-50 win ratio against daemons and vampires. even against deamons, if the special characters have been left at home, theres no reason why you can't beat them. Warriors can certainly be taken down, and Lizards, while tough are far from being insurmountable. They may be a bit dated now, but overall i feel they still have it :D

Grapeshot
19-05-2009, 13:20
I go for VC. They have prettier models.

carldooley
19-05-2009, 14:43
I go for VC. They have prettier models.

be careful with the VC skeletons - they are harder to put together than necrons.

AllTheWayUlthwe
19-05-2009, 14:55
I just want to give my two cents here.

I play TK's and they were the first army I bought when I got into this game. I love the models and the fluff behind them. I also love the incantations as they NEVER miscast. I also think that they have the hardest to stop magic in the game. Used in the right combo it can be murder to your opponent. I use a very WALKY TK army with at least 2 units of Tomb Guard. I put a King on foot with any weapon, thought the Destroyer of Eternities ROCKS so much, and he is a killing machine.

Unlike the WET undead, the DRY TK's have something to do in EVERY phase of the game. They can shoot, something the WET ones can't. This is better than waiting to just get into HtH.

I personally don't think the TK's have a dated book. I use them very often and they are my go to army to RTT's. I find they can take on just about any army at an RTT and do very well.

More later if you want as I have got to get to work.

The Red Scourge
19-05-2009, 14:57
be careful with the VC skeletons - they are harder to put together than necrons.

You know, thats what glue is for ;)

selone
19-05-2009, 15:57
Glue is for sticking things together? I'm off to call up my local newspaper!

Gaargod
19-05-2009, 16:16
I like the look of TK, certainly over VC. They're gonna get redone soon, which can be a positive or negative thing - some of your models / units are going to become outdated, but certainly there's something fun to be had having the previous edition models. Skeleton horse models blow chunks IMHO, but the normal foot models aren't bad at all, and a lot more solid than the VC ones.

However, it must be said TK have a steeper learning curve. They're probably one of the hardest armies to learn to master (pure goblins being a close 2nd).
If it's your second fantasy army, that shouldn't be a massive problem in all fairness though.

LonelyPath
19-05-2009, 23:19
I prefer VC though I play both options. VC just have alot more character to me and I prefer character in my armies. Also, loads of potential for customising the miniatures themselves. Anything from Dwarf Zombies to chaos warrior Grave Guard. Plus with a little work the Corpse Cart can make a fine Black Coach (for a more rag-tag vampire).

The real pain with VC when purchasing an army is the high price of Blood Knights, betetr to convert some Chaos Knights instead at a fraction of the cost.

Zoolander
19-05-2009, 23:20
As someone else who has both armies, id say if you're new to the game, don't go with either of them, and if you've been playing a while id reccommend TK. Vamps are Dull! Dull to play with, and to play against. They're certainly good, and win games, but then in a good players hands, TK can still do the business. as for steamtanks and bloodthirsters, thats what the catapults are for ;)

What i love about the TK is theyre a fast, dynamic army (well, mine is anyway), the chariot units can be great, and other than playing people with a truly horrendous magic defense (i.e. 8 or so DD or 4+ scrolls) the magic will generally get through when you need it, especially if you can wheedle out some scrolls early on with some less important stuff (like moving carrion and shooting catapults). It takes some finesse, but for me is much more rewarding to play with than ever the VC were.

As for fighting against the newer armies, i'm 6-0 against DE, and have around a 50-50 win ratio against daemons and vampires. even against deamons, if the special characters have been left at home, theres no reason why you can't beat them. Warriors can certainly be taken down, and Lizards, while tough are far from being insurmountable. They may be a bit dated now, but overall i feel they still have it :D

Well dull or exciting is purely a matter of opinion - more than other points being made, anyway (it's all opinion isn't it?). The issue with TK for me which I neglected to mention is their lack of effective builds. Newer armies, espeically VC with all the bloodlines and effective troops, have a ton of good builds to use, meaning that they will not get old as fast. TK have only a few good builds to use, meaning the army loses it's 'freshness' quicker than other armies. In other words, they are more dull, despite having a better background. As for having an effective shooting phase... I would hardly consider hitting on 5s effective, unless you are shooting at Waywatchers in the woods or you are overloading with archers.

Catapults are not reliable to be honest. They are far too random. But they can be devastating if they don't scatter away. Chances are... they will scatter and miss more often than not, from my experience anyway. :rolleyes:

I'm happy to hear you are having good success against newer armies, though. I wish you continued success! I have personally gotten tired of being shut down with dispel scrolls when the army desperately needs the magic to survive. I anxiously wait for the new book in hopes they will improve the magic system greatly.

WhiteKnight
20-05-2009, 06:19
You know, playing tomb kings could also be a vampire count army too. You already have skeletons! And just make tomb guard into grave guard, add a couple vampires, maybe a varghulf or two. And you have a TK and VC army.

VeriNasti
20-05-2009, 06:42
I was swaying to Vc... until ThewayisUthewe posted...
How strong is Tk and VC versus other fear/terror armies? And waht are their most expensive cost wise units?

Ravening Wh0re
20-05-2009, 12:50
Tomb kings are nice but extremely hard to use effectively. They NEED magic to stay in the game whether to get extra movement or to reraise troops. Unfortunately the spellcaster are very expensive and limited.
Also, the casting of incantations MUST be cast in a very strict order so a wily opponent will not have his dispel dice "drawn" from him like other armies can.

Just to let you know: Tomb Kings cannot EVER march. This makes them super super slow, less manoeuvrable than dwarves sometimes. So you essentially need the magic to quicken your pace BUT when your magic is shut down you get shot/flanked.

There's a lot of good stuff in the Special slot. From scorps to ushabti to carrion to tomb guard. All good solid choices

shadowskale
20-05-2009, 13:02
Hey,
I am thinking of starting a second fantasy army and i really like the idea of an undead theme. Could someone please tell me the pros/cons of doing either of these armies, as well as cost and competitveness?
Thanks

VC are the best no doubt.
tomb kings are in the lower teirs. you would have to be a skilled player to use them (also there magic sucks next to VC)
however why not use Tomb king Skeletons as VC Skeletons, Tomb Guard as grave guard, take the plumes off the skeleton horses on the black coach and paint it gold/blue. it what im personly planing on doing.
Eygptian vampires raising kings from the grave <3

AllTheWayUlthwe
21-05-2009, 16:48
OK I am back. I just wanted to give a few more insights into my feelings on Tomb Kings.

I stated before that I run a walking TK army. Someone stated that TK's never march and that is true. What he failed to realize that it is in the magic phase that at TK army really shines. With the movement incantation I can literally run around most armies. This combined with some GREAT magic items you can really mess with your opponent. TO that end the Icon of Rakaph is fantastic. I put this item on a smallish unit of Tomb Guard that is on the flank. Someone runs their fast cav behind this unit or to the side of it and thinks they are free from reprisal, surprise they aren't. The Icon lets me reform the unit before charges are declared and BLAMMO there is a dead cav unit.

Tunnelers, Swarms and scorpions, are invaluable too. These little gems have given my opponents more brown trouser moments than I can count. Putting down these little counter to indicate where they are tunneling up from really mess with my opponents. These units can sneak out, and charge things on the turn they come up. I use them to take out warmachines and to slow down an enemy advance up a flank or to stall my opponent in the middle of the field. When I place the counters down after every other unit, including scouts, have been placed is GREAT. Sure they come up randomly, but the fact that they are going to come up really makes your opponent think "Do I really need to go forward?", especially when these little units can come up anytime. The swarms are very excellent at killing warmachine crews as they get SOOOOO many poisoned attacks. The killing blow for the Scorpion is good too to run him inot a character in a unit to assasinate him.

Bone Giants and ushabti are your heavy hitters. I however would never take Bone Giants if you are fighting anyone with a WS higher that 3. Bone Giants against other undead or goblin armies ROCK. When you magically move them in the magic phase to charge them into HtH against such armies their unstoppable assault is devestating. I have killed 14 models once and average at least 7 kills with a BG. The Ushabti are equally hard hitting as they are always ST 6 and they DON'T HAVE GREAT WEAPONS! I however try to never send either of these units in unassisted. EVERY unit in the TK army should be supported by another unit of some type, even lowly skeletons. Rank bonuses and taking away enemy ranks is invaluable.

I agree with the previous posts that state that TK cav SUCKs. Well, they do! I have 30 Heavy Cav models that rarely see the light of day. I feel that chariots and Tomb Guard can do the job better.

I also love the catapults. The ability to fire these warmachines TWICE a turn ROCKS! Use the incantation to fire them in the magic phase and use this knowledge to zero in on a target unit in the ooting phase is GREAT. Plus you have ALWAYS got to spend the points for "Skulls of the foe" as the -1 to the enemy units Ld check, when they take only ONE casualty for the catapult, really comes in handy.

The casket of souls also is the best warmachine in the game IMHO. It will always be the last thing to go off in your amry during the magic phase, but your opponent will save pretty much all of his dispel dice to stop this casket from going off. If it does go off, it can devastate an army. EVERY enemy unit that can draw LOS to the casket, try to put it on a hill if at all possible, can take hideous amounts of damage. I have had opponents let me get off all of my other incantations only have them use all of their dispel dice to stop the casket. You may think this would be a waste of points to spend on your army if it never goes off, but look at it this way, you are pretty much getting off all your other incantations.

Lastly, the incantations. TK magic is like scrubbing a pot that won't come clean. It is just so RELENTLESS! "OK so you stopped 3 movement spells to stop me from charging your unit in the flank. Well, I've got 3 more Priests to try to get it off." Let me explain, I usually take a King, and 2 liche priests. Sure I can take one more, but with the casket of souls I technically have 8 casting dice! 2 for the King and 2 each for the each of the Liche's and 2 for the casket. Now I challenge you to have someone shut down all of your incantations. The trick is to have your liche's and King close enough to use their incantations on the right unit. I usually place my King in a Tomb Guard unit and try to use his incantations to charge enemy units. If they get shut down the Hierophant is close by to use his. Again, the TK's need mutual magic support. SO you can cast incantation after incantation and wear down an opponent until they have no dispel dice to use against you. If they do stop you and the enemy charges you, you can simply regrow your losses and then charge that offending unit in the flank with another unit.

Well, I think I am becoming redundant here. But I think that the TK's are a more dynamic and challenging army to play and fight against. They have such different rules and style of play than any other army out there. I really think you will enjoy them. Let me know if you want me to elaborate on anything listed above or want more clarification.

GOOD LUCK!

Zoolander
21-05-2009, 17:53
Well, really none of your statements are wrong, but they are just cirumstancial. My problem with saying "TK run circles around people" is that everyone can predict what spells you will cast next and stop the most important ones from happening with ease. d6 power level is a joke and 2d6 with one spell makes lich priests subpar compared to most level 2 mages. An opponent that bothers to bring magic defense will quickly make you the slowest army in the game. Further, even if you do get the charge off, most TK units are so fragile and weak that most units can take a charge from them without worries. As you stated, most things in teh TK list need to be combo charged. Rarely can a single unit handle any other unit of your opponent's. So what's the big deal with that? TK unit are very expensive, so for the same points you spent on some TG, your opponent gets Swordmasters or Chaos Chosen or something equally nasty, meaning that he doesn't have to combo charge. See the problem? I find the same issue with my WEs, only they have bows and are cheaper, so I can field more units. The issue isn't really that they suck as much as they are just too expensive for what you get. I find the VC units more fairly priced.

They do have some great magic items (icon of rakaph is awesome, indeed!), but sadly, you will see the same magic items over and over with each list, much like you see DoC and their gifts. You have a few effective items amid a sea of mediocrity. Many armies are like that, sure, but compare the list to the VC magic item list and there is a stark difference! There are better items in the VC list, IMO. Or at least more "good" ones.

No argument here about tunnellers. The ability to tunnel and charge the turn they arrive is the best! My HE opponents hate my scorpions with a passion!

Totally agree on the big BG. Great against goblins and undead, not so hot against anyone WS 3+. Rarely do I field him, because he is rarely worth the points. Ushapti are a must have. Again though, all the units are so slow, and you can't cast the "get jiggy wit it" spell on everything, so you end end being slower than dwarves!

Yep, the SCC rocks. Take one every battle. Except against HEs who are immune to flaming rocks. :rolleyes: Still works great against swordmasters though!

I enjoy the Casket as well. The -1 to cast spells is great, and your opponent will pretty save 3-4 dispel dice or a scroll just for that, because of teh potential of it to destroy whole units of knights. A little secret - let it go off. Or stop it the first turn or two. It will rarely do much after that point. But the psychological impact cannot be denied!

The no fail, no miscast magic is so much fun, to be sure. However, I have had plenty of people shut down all my important spells with scrolls and DD. See, a smart opponent will know what you are going to cast next, as TK magic is rather limited and telegraphed about a mile a way. So that turn you really want to flank with your ushapti? Won't happen. It will get shut down and he will let you heal units or fire teh catapult or shoot your archers or something. It happens more than I like.

Don't get me wrong, the TK army is fun to play, and I am very excited about some of the rumors I am hearing about the new book, like liche priests not taking character slots (like the DE assassin), and I am hopeful for more changes such as cost reductions, improved armor and WS on some units, a decent BSB, etc., but as it stands right now, as far as this argument goes, you cannot state that TK are better than VC - it simply isn't true. the magic is better, the units are better, the characters are better, etc.

One final nail in the coffin, a very often overlooked weakness in the army: The heirophant. See, in the VC army, your "heirophant" is a blood sucking vampire with TO5, usually armor and a ward, and with WS 7. The TK have an unarmored, 2 WO, TO3, WS 3 skeleton keeping the army together. You kill this guy and the whole army crumbles. The vampire is much harder to kill, meaning less crumbling. Just my 2 cents.

Troah
21-05-2009, 17:55
Go Tomb Vampires. ^_^

Ravening Wh0re
21-05-2009, 21:14
What Zoolander says is truth, unfortunately