PDA

View Full Version : Stupidity and Frenzy



Cats Laughing
18-05-2009, 20:10
Stupidity checks are start of turn, well before frenzy charges.

If you're only moving 3.5", then not many things are in range.

Ok, so this came up in another thread on rules, and I'm a little confused on how Frenzy and Stupidity would work together.

If a unit is subject to both Frenzy and Stupidity, the current rules for ItP mean that neither completely cancels the other, as ItP only stops Fear/Terror and Panic these days.

So if a unit fails it's stupidity test (which happens before testing for charge range for Frenzy) then what happens?

A) units shambles forward in compulsory movement phase at half speed with no wheels, and if contacting a unit then counts as charging and gets the extra attacks for Frenzy(as unit is in combat and no longer just stupid).

B) unit checks range for Frenzy after charges are declared. This range is half movement for Stupidity doubled for Charging/Frenzy. If a target is in range, charge at half movement doubled as a normal charge (ie: with one wheel to line up more models). Extra frenzy attacks in combat.

C) As above (B), but don't double charge range (basically A, but allowing for 1 wheel to line up target)

D) Something else?

I think it's A, but I want to make sure.
Basically Stupid overrides Frenzy until you get into combat. Is that correct?

PeG
18-05-2009, 20:21
My gut feeling says A should be the correct answer but I dont have any rules quotes to support it which usually means that it is completely wrong :)

Paz
18-05-2009, 20:58
Rulebook page 52, 6th paragraph. Unit can't declare a charge after failing stupidity test.

Grimgormx
18-05-2009, 22:10
stupidity is checked before declaring charges, if the unit fails it then moves half its normal movement. so this un it just move, it cant declare charges because just move, and it cant charge a unit for frenzy even if it is in range (because it just move, it cant move 2 times unles it has special rules, like animosity)

Grimgormx
18-05-2009, 22:13
savage orcs that fail animosity, cant charge an enemy in range for the frenzy rules, because the stupidity and animosity take precedence.

If you have a black orc in the savage ors unit and they fail animosity, the black orc will hit some guyz and then will ignore the failed animosity and the will be able to charge or check if they have to charge for frenzy.

Cats Laughing
19-05-2009, 02:29
Rulebook page 52, 6th paragraph. Unit can't declare a charge after failing stupidity test.

Thank you Paz, no book at work,

so I guess A is correct.

Necromancy Black
19-05-2009, 02:43
Nope, this is an unknown situation and there have been plenty of discussions on this before, though I'm not sure what the final verdict was.

The main thing is that the exact wording says Stupid units can not voluntary declare charges. Frenzy isn't a voluntary charge.

But I don't by this as they're already moved in the compulsory movement phase. Still, there is no RAW for either way.

Gazak Blacktoof
19-05-2009, 10:55
The rules don't even say you can't move further after failing stupidity. As it stands the RAW is that you get some extra movement but can't charge.

LordPingu
20-05-2009, 01:58
Sorta New to the game and Forums, I have Konrad Von C, he can either be Stupid or Frenzied, if he is stupid and "stupidly" walks into an enemy I dont think he would become frenzied as this is determined by rolling a D6, not sure if this helps.. Prob Not

LordPingu
20-05-2009, 01:59
I just read my previous post, please disregard.

Arnizipal
20-05-2009, 10:33
savage orcs that fail animosity, cant charge an enemy in range for the frenzy rules, because the stupidity and animosity take precedence.
They can still charge if they move after getting a "We'll Show 'em" result (which is also a failed animosity roll), so I don't think greenskin animosity can be used as an example in this case.

TheDarkDaff
21-05-2009, 09:51
Just out of curiousity who (beside a Khorne Hero with Helm of Many Eyes) can get both Frenzy and Stupidity?

There is also the bit about magic overriding mundane in the case of direct conflict which would predispose me into the direction of making any effects caused by magic or magic items override any "natural" conditions (like troll stupidity).

T10
21-05-2009, 10:26
There are sells that make your units stupid and spells that make them frenzied. So the answer to that is "virtualy anyone".

-T10

T10
21-05-2009, 10:31
The rules don't even say you can't move further after failing stupidity. As it stands the RAW is that you get some extra movement but can't charge.

p. 24 seems to indicate that units that have charged or have been subject to compulsory movement are excluded from moving in the Remaining Moves phase. Or rather:

"Once compulsory moves and charges have been resolved, it is time to move the rest of your troops."

-T10

T10
21-05-2009, 10:37
A) units shambles forward in compulsory movement phase at half speed with no wheels, and if contacting a unit then counts as charging and gets the extra attacks for Frenzy(as unit is in combat and no longer just stupid).

I think it's A, but I want to make sure.

Basically Stupid overrides Frenzy until you get into combat. Is that correct?

This is correct. It's not so much that Stupidity overrided Frenzy. It is more a matter of Stuidity placing additional constraints on how the Frenzied unit is allowed to move.

Remember that the Frenzied unit is only forced to declare a charge if it can reach the enemy, and stpuid units are extremely limited in what they can actually reach (compared to their normal movement at lest). So Frenzy doesn't grant you an option to charge, if forces you to make use of those options that are currently available.

-T10

Gazak Blacktoof
21-05-2009, 10:54
p. 24 seems to indicate that units that have charged or have been subject to compulsory movement are excluded from moving in the Remaining Moves phase. Or rather:

"Once compulsory moves and charges have been resolved, it is time to move the rest of your troops."

-T10

I wasn't suggesting you ever continue to move your troops by the way, but yes, that's a good indication of what the intended outcome of the rules are.

Good catch.

siphon101
22-05-2009, 16:56
Just out of curiousity who (beside a Khorne Hero with Helm of Many Eyes) can get both Frenzy and Stupidity? .

....any unit that has frenzy that is affected by a stupidity causing item or spell (for example knights of the blood keep lead by a vampire character wearing the helm that makes him stupid, or khorne warriors lead by a troll character, or ANY frenzied unit that is affected by the Slaanesh demon spell).

It's actually not that hard to envision this occuring.

Tae
22-05-2009, 22:27
There is also the bit about magic overriding mundane in the case of direct conflict which would predispose me into the direction of making any effects caused by magic or magic items override any "natural" conditions (like troll stupidity).

That line/section of the BRB gets mis-interpreted so often sometimes I wish they hadn't written it in.

The magic > mundane argument refers to when there is a direct conflict. Dave the Elf with his mundane "I hit on a 3+" skill fighting Bob the Dwarf with his "you only hit me on a 5+" magic armour is a direct conflict. Magic Frenzy vs mundane stupidity is not.

Nurgling Chieftain
22-05-2009, 22:54
That line/section of the BRB gets mis-interpreted so often sometimes I wish they hadn't written it in.IIRC, they actually took it out of the latest edition.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
22-05-2009, 23:14
[QUOTE=TheDarkDaff;3596794]Just out of curiousity who (beside a Khorne Hero with Helm of Many Eyes) can get both Frenzy and Stupidity? QUOTE]

Orc and goblin miscast table

eyeolas
23-05-2009, 14:17
Personally, I recon this is how it goes:

The unit rolls for stupidity (in this case failing, for the sake of the arguement) at the begining of the turn before any charges are declared

The unit then measures to see if anyone is in range of their frenzy (assuming there is someone for this instance) at the end of the declaire charges phase

the unit then gets its stupidity half movement foreward in the compulsary (which could potentially mean it no longer has LoS to the opposed unit, but since it declaired the charge, it is still allowed to follow the normal steps for charging, such as the one wheel then moving the full distance to do whatever you can to get into combat (or fail charge)

the unit then charges, applying stand and shoot (the unit may now be out of sight, at which point they cannot be shot because the stand and shoot range and LoS is checked now, rather than before the half move), and fail charge if you are out (you have to wheel too far, the half move brought you out or whatever)


This is based on the belief that all rules should be resolved to their fullest potential, and my way makes full use of both rules, while following all of their RaW (but then again, I'm a person that believes a unit can move after failing stupidity, because the rule book doesn't say they can't)

Also, from the stupidity rule: 'units that failed a stupidity test cannot voluntarily declare charges, shoot and cannot cast spells for that turn',

compare that to the frenzy rule: '... If so, the frenzied unitmust declair a chargeagainst that enemy. The player has no choice in the matter, the unit will automatically make its charge move'

to me thats prety clear cut that you can still charge via frenzy, but then again, I'd bet that you're not supposed to by RaI

---

on a slightly different note, one thing you can do in this situation (given a frenzy/stupidity spell caster, such as an OnG one that got the miscast result earlier in the game) is that you can fail stupidity, move your half move into combat, then according to the stupidity rule:

'the effect of stupidity also stops immediately if the creatures are engaged in close combat, as their fighting instincts overcome their stupidity',

you can cast spells in the magic phase. Fun fun :angel:

Tae
23-05-2009, 15:47
IIRC, they actually took it out of the latest edition.

Latest edition as in 7th from 6th or the most recent print version of 7th? As my 7th hardback version (which is coming up to about 18 months old) still has it in.