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Sloppyjayman
19-05-2009, 20:06
I cant really believe this has never come up in my 15+ years playing warhammer fantasy battle but here we go.

The situation:
ORC TURN

25 Orcs charge 20 Skaven Slaves
Orcs Kill 6, Slaves Break and run 7, Orcs pursue and run 6

OOOOOO
OOOOOO
OOOOOO
OOOOOO
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSS

So the Orcs are 1 inch behind the Slaves

SKAVEN TURN

Unit of 30 Plague Monks declare charge on 24 Orcs
Slaves dont rally, and run another 3 inches (snake eyes +1)

OOOOOO
OOOOOO
OOOOOO
OOOOOO
--------PPPPPP
--------PPPPPP
SSSSSPPPPPP
SSSSSPPPPPP
SSSS PPPPPP

What happens here. Are the Slaves moved out of the way in order to maximize combat between the Plague Monks and Orcs? Or Do we fight 2 models vs 2 models because I cant slide in because the slaves are in the way?

How would you handle it or is there a rule to follow?

We 4+'s it and ended up moving the Slaves out of the way as if they were pushed by the superior rats.

Thanks for your help.

jaxom
19-05-2009, 20:44
The charging unit is repositioned to maximize models. If the charging unit cannot move, the defending unit is moved to maximize. The orcs slide to maximize.

Gazak Blacktoof
19-05-2009, 20:54
If you want to slide any units then that's up to you, its an optional rule. As an optional rule there's no mandate on how you should handle it, so you basically just have to talk it over with your opponent as and when necessary or have some house rules.

narrativium
19-05-2009, 21:00
It depends on your house convention. RAW, the Plague Monks clip the Orc unit as you describe because the rest of the unit is blocked by the Slaves. Once the units connect, the Plague Monks make their free wheel so the units fight edge to edge rather than edge to corner.

The sliding convention is house rule only, and is described in the Warhammer FAQ/Errata documents because of battlefield aesthetic - it looks better if as many models as possible fight.

Remember that the free wheel and the unofficial slide are the only means by which a model is allowed to move further than their movement distance will allow. RAW you cannot move further than this just to maximise the number of models in contact - you just can't choose a path into combat which involves fewer than the maximum number (so, if only two Plague Monks can legally reach, you must get two into combat - no more by sliding, no fewer by shuffling your charge).

Cats Laughing
19-05-2009, 21:10
In a friendly game (against someone I know) I'd allow you to charge your own slaves, forcing them to flee into the orcs and be destroyed, which then allow you to 'enemy in the way' redirect your charge into my orcs.

But that's purely houserule and not at all applicable to tournaments or strangers :P

EvC
19-05-2009, 21:16
Wheel the monks as much as you can so that when you align you'll get the most models in contact. This may mean that the charged unit has to align rather than the charging unit, in this case.

Witchblade
19-05-2009, 21:25
Check the FAQ part 2 and the debates on Warseer on 'sliding'.

In short, RAW there is no sliding; GW RAI, you should always slide.

rtunian
19-05-2009, 21:48
what about wheeling the plaguemonks and the orcs both a bit, so you are fighting more at a diagonal?? seems more "realistic"
*ducks*

theunwantedbeing
20-05-2009, 11:36
Any chance would could be shown where the plaguemonks were when the slaves fled?
Looks like the slaves could have ended out behind the plaguemonks, avoiding the entire clipping scenario completely.

I do belive Rtunian's sugguestion is the most in-keeping with the rules though.
Page 21 of the rulebook.
You will sometimes have to align the enemy to your unit, rather than align to them (or both) if needs be due to models or scenery and such being in the way.

An alignment is a wheel, not a slide.
As a result, you whele the enemy unit towards your own unit, once your unit is aligned as best it can.

I drew a quick diagram to show what I mean.
Green are the Orcs, Yellow are the Slaves, Red are the Plaguemonks

EvC
20-05-2009, 12:01
Actually I suggested it first, but you get the win for the excellent diagram ;)

Milgram
20-05-2009, 13:26
Remember that the free wheel and the unofficial slide are the only means by which a model is allowed to move further than their movement distance will allow.

this is another discussion, but there are a lot of other ways how a model is allowed to move more than twice their movement distance. even if you restrict this to the movement phase and not considering any compulsory movements, magic or special abilities. best example are the back models of a unit while wheeling. but that is another discussion. :)

Da GoBBo
20-05-2009, 20:21
Actually I suggested it first, but you get the win for the excellent diagram ;)

Yes you did, and I didn't like it than as well :).

If you play it like this, your more or less abusing a rule that was meant to allign units that could not make a proper battle line after the charging unit was moved. This will often happen if ye charge multiple units. This rule does not allow you to get more models in contact though.

EvC
20-05-2009, 21:04
Actually this is exactly why the rule is in place, to allow for a more sensible and entirely legal combat rather than the awful clipping or non-legal sliding alternatives. Thumbs up to aligning!

Da GoBBo
21-05-2009, 10:13
This rule is not in place to avoid clipping, but to create a battle line when the charger can not allign. In the above example, the charger can allign and therefor, unless the rule has been "clarified"/altered in a FAQ, the charged unit is not allowed to allign to the charger. Remember, it's up to the charging unit to maximize models, not up to the charged unit.

EvC
21-05-2009, 11:50
Not always. The charger can't maximise and align because the other unit is in the way in the diagram. As the rules state, if other units get in the way of the alignment, align the charged unit instead for a more realistic, maximised battle-line.

Still not sure why you're opposed to this...

rtunian
21-05-2009, 12:58
no, dagobbo, this isn't an exploitation or a loophole, it's an allowance in the rules.

p21:
if it is impractical to align a unit properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to realign the charged unit as well (or instead) so that the battle lines remain neat

Chicago Slim
21-05-2009, 14:35
I generally prefer clipping to re-aligning the charge target, actually, because re-aligning the target is open to abuse: Here I am, carefully protecting my flanks, when my opponent forces me to expose my flank by charging with the FARTHER of two units-- thus opening me up to a subsequent flank charge by the CLOSER unit.

Takes some finesse to pull it off, but the guys I play with got pretty damned good at it, before we agreed that it wasn't really a tactic that was in keeping with RAI. Now, we collectively prefer to slide, and thus maintain the "general shape and direction of the battleline." That doesn't mean we never re-align the target of a charge, but we're aware of the potential for abuse, and prefer to discourage that abuse...

The weak wording of the text allowing re-alignment ("it is acceptable...") helped me to convince the rest of my group that it wasn't The Right Way to deal with clipping, that it was possible to create situations where re-alignment was the wrong way to deal with clipping, and that we had in fact discovered those situations...

apbevan
21-05-2009, 15:27
From your own quote it states the purpose to keep battle lines neat, well they are neat, there is no disruption of battle lines when clipping occurs.

The skaven player has an adjacent unit of slaves that he moved previously, this unit of slaves helped guard the plague monks from a charge of Orcs but now your saying the skaven player can ignore the bad position he is in because his slaves did not run far enough?

Positioning and movement are key elements of warhammer and when one player gets to ignore this by claiming clipping is unrealistic then he should not charge. Clipping works both ways and when the skaven player forced the clipping to expect the other player to slide/maximize his unit to accept an awkward charge is lame.

The diagram showed the orcs reforming not wheeling to make better contact with the skaven which is not right. If the diagram was an accurate depiction of space it does look like the skaven player had enough room to wheel charge align as close to the slaves as possible then have the orcs wheel and align as close as possible while maintaining at least 1 inch of space from the slaves.

In warhammer sometimes weird movement does happen and their is the optional rule of sliding which can be great in a friendly environment but depending on the context of the charge if your oppoent is abusing the rules I would not slide to meet his charge.

rtunian
21-05-2009, 16:23
skaven player forced the clipping?
please, tell me how to force an extremely low 2d6 roll... i'd love to know how so my ng's can pass all their fear tests.

the diagram doesn't show the orcs doing anything... it shows where the 3 units are in relation to each other, and the 2 diagonal lines are the proposed battle line between the plaguemonks and the orcs. that arrow left of the green box is not an arrow pointing from the green box to the yellow box, but an indication of the direction of the green box's proposed wheel.

apbevan
21-05-2009, 17:44
how can the battle lines be as proposed if the orcs wheel? The bottom right corner of the orcs would not move when they wheel so your battle lines are wrong unless there is sliding.

I would not expect there to more than 2 Orcs in base contact with the skaven when their is 4 inches of space between them and the slaves meaning they could not do a complete the counter wheel to meet the charging skaven who could not complete their free wheel after making contact with the orcs.

rtunian
21-05-2009, 18:13
the diagram is meant to be a helpful tool to understand the situation. it was never intended to be a precise representation of the field, especially since tub was not a participant in the match, nor did he have a photograph to base his estimation on.

this "oh the lines aren't exact" argument is a weak attempt to discount the usefulness of the diagram. what do you call semantics for diagrams? lol

apbevan
21-05-2009, 19:17
I was pointing out that the diagram shows incorrect battles lines. It can't be helpful if its giving the wrong information.

The information we do have is a 4inch space between the orcs and slaves.

Talking about sliding and counter wheeling I felt it was important to note in the situation described unless you slid the unit the counter wheel rule would not help much thus the skaven player is forcing a clip, which is completely legitimate so long as they don't expect the orc player to automatically slide his unit or allow the skaven unit to slide.

rtunian
21-05-2009, 19:52
which would make sense, except that the context of the wheel free maneuver is to align combatants without sliding. it's the alternative to sliding... so, that you don't slide should go without saying :p

theunwantedbeing
21-05-2009, 20:49
I was pointing out that the diagram shows incorrect battles lines. It can't be helpful if its giving the wrong information.

Explain what you mean by "incorrect battle lines" please.

Da GoBBo
21-05-2009, 22:11
no, dagobbo, this isn't an exploitation or a loophole, it's an allowance in the rules.

p21:
if it is impractical to align a unit properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to realign the charged unit as well (or instead) so that the battle lines remain neat

I'v made a drawing to try and illustrate why I don't agree with you and EvC. The bottom drawing is a situation somebody posted last week. The charging unit has to charge both enemy units. It is impossible to create a battleline and thus the charged units wheel and slide do lots of stuff. This is specifically allowed by the rules and this is what the above rule is for.

The situation on this thread is more similar to the toppart of this drawing. Unit charges, barely makes it and maximising models results in the clipping we see in picture one. I hope it is a frontal charge, didn't really pay attention to that :angel:. Now I ask you. Does the charged unit need to wheel and meet up with the charging unit in order to maximise, resulting in picture 2? I don't think the rules allow for this and if they do, I'd really like to know what else I'm doin wrong :).

Now back to the situation on this thread. Clipping is unpleasant in a lot of cases, but it is a battleline. I don't see how the quoted rule above can avoid clipping, whether a unit is the cause or a long distance between the units.

Masque
22-05-2009, 06:57
This rule is not in place to avoid clipping, but to create a battle line when the charger can not allign. In the above example, the charger can allign and therefor, unless the rule has been "clarified"/altered in a FAQ, the charged unit is not allowed to allign to the charger. Remember, it's up to the charging unit to maximize models, not up to the charged unit.


Not always. The charger can't maximise and align because the other unit is in the way in the diagram. As the rules state, if other units get in the way of the alignment, align the charged unit instead for a more realistic, maximised battle-line.

Still not sure why you're opposed to this...


no, dagobbo, this isn't an exploitation or a loophole, it's an allowance in the rules.

p21:
if it is impractical to align a unit properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to realign the charged unit as well (or instead) so that the battle lines remain neat

That rule only exists for situations where it is impossible for the chargers to align at all. The rule requiring maximising during the charge only requires you to get as many models in contact as possible, it does not increase the number of models beyond what would otherwise be possible.

EvC
22-05-2009, 18:00
The situation on this thread is more similar to the toppart of this drawing. Unit charges, barely makes it and maximising models results in the clipping we see in picture one. I hope it is a frontal charge, didn't really pay attention to that :angel:. Now I ask you. Does the charged unit need to wheel and meet up with the charging unit in order to maximise, resulting in picture 2? I don't think the rules allow for this and if they do, I'd really like to know what else I'm doin wrong :).

Option 2 is so bizarre and ridiculous and contrary to the rules and is not what anyone has been claiming should happen. For you to say it has shows a great misunderstanding has happened at some point.

If the charger can only reach the unit maximises as in option 1, then yes, it's stuck like that, unless the players decide to slide. There is absolutely no way that option 2 should ever happen- for the charger to get into corner to corner to contact as you have drawn, it would need a far greater charge distance. Then if it had that much charge reach, then you wouldn't align the charged unit to it, you would align the charging unit, entirely as normal, and entirely as we all play the game. If it could make the charge like that in the first place, there would be no worries, it would be a clear and plain successful charge which would maximise properly.

You would only align the charged unit to the charger in cases where it's impossible to align the charging unit itself. Such as in tub's great earlier diagram, which you either missed or decided to ignore, for reasons unknown...

Da GoBBo
22-05-2009, 21:45
Option 2 is so bizarre and ridiculous and contrary to the rules .......

I'm glad we totally agree on this. Situation 2 is absurd.


You would only align the charged unit to the charger in cases where it's impossible to align the charging unit itself.

We totally agree on this one as well.


Such as in tub's great earlier diagram, which you either missed or decided to ignore, for reasons unknown...

I did not miss the diagram, but the charging red unit can allign to the green unit without difficulties. All it has to do is move straight forward. Am I missing something?

EvC
23-05-2009, 11:40
It cannot align itself while fulfilling the conditions for maximising. If it just moves forwards and leaves it at that, then 1-2 models on each side will be in combat. If it does the wheel as tub indicates, and then the charged unit aligns to the charger, then most of both front ranks will be in the fight.

Masque
23-05-2009, 18:48
Let's say you can usually jump three feet high. You are in a room where the ceiling is only two feet above your head. If I tell you to jump as high as you can, will you jump three feet or only two?

The rule for maximizing models in contact is no different. It only tells you to get as many into contact as possible. It does not allow you to get more models into contact than you would otherwise be able to.

Aligning has nothing to do with maximinzing. Aligning causes units to contact along an edge rather than a point.

Atrahasis
23-05-2009, 18:56
Arguments like this almost make me wish units were circular.

EvC
23-05-2009, 22:27
Too true...


Let's say you can usually jump three feet high. You are in a room where the ceiling is only two feet above your head. If I tell you to jump as high as you can, will you jump three feet or only two?

Let's say you ask me to move in a direction that goes towards the ceiling, but I have to travel three feet. I bet I can do it ;)


Aligning has nothing to do with maximinzing. Aligning causes units to contact along an edge rather than a point.

You contact on a point, and then align to give edge-to-edge adhesion :)

rtunian
24-05-2009, 01:53
You contact on a point, and then align to give edge-to-edge adhesion

in this case, once the plaguemonks cleared the slaves, they would wheel towards the orcs at a slight angle, which would ultimately result in contacting the orcs at the edge of the righthand most orc model, while also touching the back corner of the slaves. since the plaguemonks can't wheel any more (they are already stopped from wheeling in that direction by touching the corner of the fleeing unit), the orcs would wheel down from the left a little bit to form the battle line.

Masque
24-05-2009, 11:28
I'm starting to lean towards the possibilty that by a strict reading of the rules you are required to cause the defender to align instead of or in addition to the charger to get more models in. I can also imagine ways to abuse this as it is possible to intentionally create this situation even when it isn't necessary. It seems wrong to be able to re-angle enemy units to force more favorable flee and pursue paths.

vodrake
24-05-2009, 12:22
[edit] ignore this, was taling about the wrong thing, might edit it when i know what im talking about

Da GoBBo
30-05-2009, 23:44
I'm starting to lean towards the possibilty that by a strict reading of the rules you are required to cause the defender to align instead of or in addition to the charger to get more models in. I can also imagine ways to abuse this as it is possible to intentionally create this situation even when it isn't necessary. It seems wrong to be able to re-angle enemy units to force more favorable flee and pursue paths.

Hi peeps, I was in London for a week so couldn't be bothered with reading any forums. Great city really, streetmusicians, musea, helpfull staff in stores and pubs etc., theater (fantastic). I'v had the best of times. Still interested in this thread though because as Masque pointed out, ye can really use this rule to greatly benfit your own purpose if they do indeed work like this. I allways thought the charged unit should only be aligned if the only other result is a failed charge. In the earlier example there is still a possible charge which does not involve aligning the charged unit and I think this option is prefered, even if it doesn't "maximize" the number of models.

What is maximizing anyway? When you charge, you charge around all features (including units). The free wheel is part of the charge as well. If you can't complete that free wheel, your just trying to pull off an impossible charge in my opinion. Maximizing is therefor having brought as many models in combat as possible after making your free wheel. Wel ... that´s what I think :).

Taking this into account, maximizing in the earlier example is the clipping situation.

Having said all that, I don't think people in my gaming group would ever agree to any other ruling. It's just to weird to be able to re-angle enemy units, as Masque so nicely put it.

Clegane
31-05-2009, 10:41
Having said all that, I don't think people in my gaming group would ever agree to any other ruling. It's just to weird to be able to re-angle enemy units, as Masque so nicely put it.

Weirder than the two corner two soldiers duking it out while 40 other soldiers stand behind them with their hands in their pockets doing nothing?

By all means, sir, play and enjoy the game however you wish. I'll just remain glad that most of the people I play with see and understand the sense in aligning both units to maximize contact and represent a 'more realstic' battle line.

As it says in GW's FAQ:

"Once the charging unit has touched its opponent, the
combat is committed and it only remains to align the
antagonists where the charge has been made at an angle.
Bear in mind what is really happening. The two units
have clashed and some warriors in advance of the rest
have struck the enemy first, but the rest will pile in
beside them and gradually both sides come together into
a wave that ebbs and flows as the troops fight. For the
purposes of the game we simply move the combatants
against each other so that a battleline is formed, and for
convenience it is easier to move the chargers. Therefore,
the charging unit is aligned to its target, but in situations
where it would be more convenient (eg, if impassable
terrain is in the way) it is entirely possible to move the
charged unit to align it with the charger.
This extra ‘wheel in’ happens automatically and can
indeed result in some models moving considerably
further than their normal charge distance – this is
absolutely fine by the rules."

Da GoBBo
31-05-2009, 11:30
[QUOTE=Clegane;3628961]Weirder than the two corner two soldiers duking it out while 40 other soldiers stand behind them with their hands in their pockets doing nothing?/QUOTE]

As Masque pointed out, reangling enemy units is a mighty feat. Thats why skirmishers allign to charging units and big blocks of soldiers don't. Rules should reflect gamemechanics first and realism second. I think this alligning the charged unit does not help a game that's all about movement. And, as I said before, I don't think the rules require this of you in this example. As Apbevan pointed out battlelines are not disturbed when clipping so this second part of the rule (brb, not FAQ) just doesn't kick in. Yes, I read the FAQ you quoted and it seems quiet clear. I don't think the writer really thought it through though. It really messes up gamemechanics, even if it does represent a more realistic battleline.

EvC
31-05-2009, 14:51
It enhances the game mechanics really, as it adds to the flow of the game rather than getting caught up on clunky mechanics (like clipping). Yes, having the defender aligning to the target can result in some odd situations, and possibly be abused, but with far less awkwardness than with ALWAYS happens with clipping.

I think the author of the FAQ got it dead on the mark and knew exactly what he was saying.

Chipacabra
31-05-2009, 18:29
The rule is "If it is impractical to align a unit properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to realign the charged unit as well (or instead) so that the battle lines remain neat."

This is exactly what's happening. If the chargers wheel mid-charge so that they cut in front of the friendly unit before they contact the enemy, then there are other models preventing them from aligning. The rules specifically say this is acceptable and you just align the charged unit. It's not in the oddball stuff section of the rules, it's not in the optional rules, it's just a basic rule of charging. It is clearly a legal charge.

Because it's a legal charge, and because it brings more models into contact than charging straight forward and clipping, that also means you HAVE to charge like that instead of moving straight forward.

vilo
31-05-2009, 20:42
the charging unit must contact the enemy unit first, even if its only the corner of the unit that connects. Then they get their free wheel in to maximize models, IF you can not do this then the charged unit must wheel (or align) to the charger thus bringing the maximum amount of models into play.

in this example the plague monks can clearly charge the unit and align, even if they can only get a small amount of models in. Clipping is annoying and in friendly games i might even slide units across but in any competitive environment i assure you that no sliding nor forcing the charged unit to move will ever be allowed.

Chipacabra
01-06-2009, 01:30
in this example the plague monks can clearly charge the unit and align, even if they can only get a small amount of models in. Clipping is annoying and in friendly games i might even slide units across but in any competitive environment i assure you that no sliding nor forcing the charged unit to move will ever be allowed.

In the example, the plague monks can also charge by moving forward, wheeling, then moving forward the rest of the way to make contact. The requirement isn't to charge as directly as possible, the requirement is to end up with the most models in contact as possible after the alignment process.

Clegane
01-06-2009, 11:10
Clipping is annoying and in friendly games i might even slide units across but in any competitive environment i assure you that no sliding nor forcing the charged unit to move will ever be allowed.

I guess you and I must play in different 'competitive environments.' Both of the aforementioned have been allowed in every tourney I've played in since the release of 7th edition.

As such, sir, I can 'assure you' that such things are indeed allowed in competitive environments. Just not the ones you play in, apparently.

EvC
01-06-2009, 12:10
Yeah, it varies from tournament to tournament, and indeed, inside the same tournaments. Generally speaking the chaps on the lower tables I tend to play against think sliding is a good thing, and the fellas on the top tables that I get mis-drawn against in games 1-2 all play by clipping ;)

Da GoBBo
01-06-2009, 22:51
In the example, the plague monks can also charge by moving forward, wheeling, then moving forward the rest of the way to make contact. The requirement isn't to charge as directly as possible, the requirement is to end up with the most models in contact as possible after the alignment process.

The requirement is to finish your charge. Finishing a charge includes alligning. The rules first say the charging unit is alligned, then it tells about impractical situations, which is a vague term, where it is allowed to allign the charged unit. Even though it is not spelled out, I think this means you should allways try to perform a charge where the charging unit is alligned. If this is not possible perform a charge where the charged unit is alligned.

Before you all put on your flaming hat again, I said it's not spelled out in the rules so it's how I interpret the rules and even after hearing all your arguments I still think it is correct. The FAQ doesn't rule it out IMO, nor does it support it though. I am not infallible and might thus be wrong, but I will continue to play it like this. Not because I think it makes more sense from a realistic point of view, but, abviously because I think thats how it is and because I think it serves strategics in the game a lot better.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-06-2009, 23:22
In short, you don't care what the rules say, nevermind what any of us say. Why even bother discussing it, then?

Da GoBBo
02-06-2009, 09:43
Not really. If the rules were perfectly clear this thread wouldn't have lasted so long. So yes, I do care what the rules say. I care more about playing a nice game though, that's why loads of people have houserules. As to what you have all said, I just said I'm not convinced. Don't turn that into something it is not please.
I have a certain understanding of how the rulebook works and I base my conclusion on that. Certain parts of the rules overrule other parts of the rules, it has allways been like this. It's abviously a lot more clear to you and others what takes priority than it is to me, yet that doesn't shake the feeling that this rule is just in place for situations where the charger can not allign at all. Do the rules it spell it out word for word, they don't. Do they reject it, I don't think so, neither does the FAQ. It's just really bad ruling open for a lot of interpretation and I still don't share yours. That, however, is not the same as ignoring all of you an just posting ranting posts. For the sake of the discussion, I just wanted to avoid hearing the same arguments again that did not convince me before.

Now back to the argument. The way I understand the rules it's like this.
1. move your chargers
2. allign the charger
3. if this is not "practical" (worst wording in rule ever) choose a charge that does allow for alligning
4. if this is not possible, allign the charged unit.

The rules don't even include point number 3 so my point seems rather pointless. I hear you, why am I even arguing this? Its just that I can see it sitting there between the lines because of how I understand the game, but maybe that's just wishfull thinking? Realligning enemy units just seems to powerfull to me so I think you shouldn't look for situations where this occurs.

In short, leaving out point number 3 seems like rulesabuse to me.

Maybe it's because it's new and all, but it has allways been my understanding that certain "legal" moves should be avoided if possible for the sake of the game, just like certain armylists should be avoided. EvC thinks it's a good thing and allows for more dynamic gameflow. It's certainly different and I might come to agree, but let me think of the concequences first :) This is after all a movement game.

EvC
02-06-2009, 10:16
The key to those four points is that you should do all 4 with a mind to bringing the most number of combatants into the fight. Thus if (2) will not but (3) or (4) would, then you should choose that one.