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Troah
20-05-2009, 01:57
So, I have this reputation, a reputation that I am ashamed of. I've played Warhammer for 5 years. In those 5 years I've played so many battles I could never count them all. My wins however, I can count with only one hand. I have won only once in Warhammer Fantasy. Once, with an army that wasn't mine, using the worlds most basic of all tactics and some of the weakest units. My single victory was using 6th edition Chaos Mauraders with great weapons vs Dwarves. It was a game with no magic. All I did was make a line, and marched forward.

Does anyone else suck as much as I do at this game?:cries:

jason
20-05-2009, 02:00
At least I believe your win-loss record. And as long as you are having a good time (which you obviously are for playing for so long), then keep it up. You are in the game for all the right reasons!

Troah
20-05-2009, 02:02
Lol...a win now and then would be nice. I even got a handicap once, 3,000 vs 4,000 and I still lost.

starlight
20-05-2009, 02:10
*waves*

I suck too. :( Losses and draws, a few wins in 40K, but none in WFB... :(

Troah
20-05-2009, 02:14
Never had a draw. :-/
and only a single win in 40k but that was with a partner.

starlight
20-05-2009, 02:16
I've been playing on and off for about fifteen years...:p

The best way to get good at anything is to do it as much as possible...give it time. :)

Troah
20-05-2009, 02:21
Idk...In the last week I've played probably 20 battles. And it's not that I horribly suck beyond comprehension, well maybe a little, it's that I always get gayed in the end, or sometimes right at the start, somehow and I am never able to recover. Or when I fight High Elves it's always Teclis that screws me over on magic even though I play with Lizardmen.

TonyFlow
20-05-2009, 02:31
I also only rarely get a win. But your case seems a little extreme...
What i have found to help is to spend alot of time reading the tactica threads about the armies you play. Learn from other's experience. And read battle reports. What works for other people might also work for you. It has really helped me tremendously! Hope it will also help you, good luck!

Shiodome
20-05-2009, 02:35
do you discuss the battle with your opponent once finished? or watch other people play?

starlight
20-05-2009, 02:38
Sounds like you aren't learning from your battles. *Getting gayed* is a cop-out, not a battle result.


Sun-Tzu - know yourself, know your opponent, know the battlefield.

If you know your own army backwards and forwards, and you know (understand) the battlefield, you've got a reasonable chance of winning. I'm suspecting that you may be expecting things from your army without fully understanding it...

The other concern Sun-Tzu didn't have to deal with was GW's nutty rules. They add a fourth component to master. Once you have them and your army, it's just the individual battlefields to give you at least a 2/3 chance of winning. :)


Watch other people play, discuss gaming, read the Tactics Forums (even though some Threads are thousands of Posts long) and learn from the mistakes of others. :)

Troah
20-05-2009, 02:38
Oh yeah, we always discuss how the battle went, what would of happened if this or that happened.

I really don't try to expect things happening with my armies, I've been told by all the people that I play with that I play well, I just can't win.

Pooky
20-05-2009, 03:06
Troah, I feel your pain :cries: I suck at WFB. I play WoC and can never seem to make it work for me. My friend plays O&G and he completely smashes me every game. I won't mention my Empire friend who takes :cheese: lists (the game doesn't usually last for 3 turns).

If nothing else take solace in this: I very much respect the tenacity you have for the game. I was close to quitting a while back, but then the new WoC rule book came out so I decided to give it another shot. That and I would have forked out all that $$$ for models I would never use again if I quit! :D Keep on punching, Tiger!

ScalySkin
20-05-2009, 03:31
I suggest reading through the tactics section, posting your army lists to get feedback, mixing up your lists and tactics and going to your local store from time to time for a random game. The friends you are playing against sound like they are very good players, so you will need to be unpredictable and use good tactics to beat them.

Maybe you should play some objective based games as well, play a game where your opponent is defending and therefore has a smaller army. You are likely to do well even if you don't win the objective and therefore have a lot of fun.

Troah
20-05-2009, 03:35
Don't have a local store. :-/
There's about 6 other people that play Warhammer in my crappy little town of 3,000.
But thank you all of the advice.

Dark14
20-05-2009, 04:21
write a list down to i can make one for bretonnia that will win for you.

Lord Dan
20-05-2009, 04:22
I'll tell you what my dad used to tell me when I didn't do so well:

"Think of all the character you're building."

To answer your question, yes, you could quite possibly be the worst Warhammer player in the world. However, at least you're something. You go into games and play your best, obviously have a good time, and come out of it wanting more. Who am I? I'm just some guy with an average win/ loss ratio. I don't even get a title. You're "THE worst". I'm...what? Par? Now the guy I really feel bad for is the BEST fantasy player. Poor sap.

Keep gaming man.

FanaticKilla
20-05-2009, 04:28
Long time loser here as well. :p

Only been playing for 6 months so I guess I have the excuse of inexperience but I haven't won a single match yet except for a doubles tournament with a VC player.

Most of my loses come down to 60% inexperience, 40% bad luck. I have read all sorts of tactics in this and other forums and still can't get close to a win. It gets a bit disheartening at first though I think I am slowly learning. The worse losses are when you know what you have done wrong but its too late to fix it.

As others said you might just be up against very good players which unless they have extremely bad luck with the dice, is going to be a tough match.

So just to say you aren't alone and to keep going at it, everytime you play you are one match closer to a win. At least that is what I tell myself. ;)

fubukii
20-05-2009, 05:08
what is the list you use, i can offer some advice :)

Nicha11
20-05-2009, 05:11
Take the cheesiest demon list possible, after a few wins you will wish you could lose again:p

snurl
20-05-2009, 05:20
Amen to that.

Putty
20-05-2009, 11:05
i am absolutely horrid with Fantasy too. I think the only game I ever won was a 1000 point game between my Wood Elves and my friend's Skaven Battalion.

I have never won with my WoC (used to be HoC) army.

I never won any game after that win with Woodelves either.

I have tried all sorts of lists with both armies (which forced me to build power-ish lists to get some sort of result).

I now intend to sell my WoC army and get a VC one... which I believe will be A LOT LESS PAINFUL TO PLAY.

I have a lot less problems with 40k, essentially because the system is more sensible.

I only lost twice with my Nids (eldar and SM) and still learning how to play Necrons (draw and loss)

Duke Georgal
20-05-2009, 11:15
So, I have this reputation, a reputation that I am ashamed of. I've played Warhammer for 5 years. In those 5 years I've played so many battles I could never count them all. My wins however, I can count with only one hand. I have won only once in Warhammer Fantasy. Once, with an army that wasn't mine, using the worlds most basic of all tactics and some of the weakest units. My single victory was using 6th edition Chaos Mauraders with great weapons vs Dwarves. It was a game with no magic. All I did was make a line, and marched forward.

Does anyone else suck as much as I do at this game?:cries:

I am the worst Warhammer general in the state of Florida! I can provide references if necessary. I have come in last in so many tournaments that it could be a world wide record. Thank heaven for painting awards!

Lijacote
20-05-2009, 11:34
You can not be the worst player ever as long as I exist. I've broken the laws of suckage and reformed them in my image. You wouldn't even have negative superlatives without me. The dictionary sports my face etc etc etc :D You get the point.

I suck.

Mostly because winning never matters as much to me as being with an opponent, moving figures and imagining the battlefield... it's the immersion in good company. I'll improve some day. Maybe!

larabic
20-05-2009, 11:44
Wow, 0-26 with Bret's? I didn't think it was possible. You may be playing against high end players that are really good and like to power game, but still with Bret's as long as you pick your battles you should be fine. As it is now the Lance formation is 3 wide which means you can get almost 2 full lance formations to hi the front of an enemy unit break through and swing around. Don't go charge things like black guards, or hammerers, pick your targets wisely and you will do fine. Use Pegasus knights and solo's to pick of weaker units and warmachines. Without exact details i couldn't tell you more, good luck.

Satan
20-05-2009, 11:45
My regular opponent is a pretty good military strategist so I tend to lose to him. I've probably lost more games than I've won, definitively. But a friend of mine used to play much like you do - he played well but never won. We often put it down to his atrocious dice rolls however. Seriously, I started relying on them for winning games. I once had a unit of eternal guard charged by a cold one chariot, lord on dragon and cold one knights from three sides respectively. Not only did I hold, I also beat them due to his dice rolls.

Anyway, to make a long story short, he got into a serious gaming group and after a long time experimenting with different tournament-based lists and tactics his game has improved greatly. Just food for thought. Hold on and you'll get there.

YTY
20-05-2009, 11:52
I've got the opposite situation. Against my regular two opponents, I win always. I think if we count 40k and FB i have won almost 50 games and got a draw once. It's pretty annoying because my friends enjoy more playing each other as they are quite even. I don't know why but they always run to my traps or forget that i can flee and hit their flank. And if you always win, the victory does not feel like one properly.

Not easy the other way either.

Memnos
20-05-2009, 11:56
I've got the opposite situation. Against my regular two opponents, I win always. I think if we count 40k and FB i have won almost 50 games and got a draw once. It's pretty annoying because my friends enjoy more playing each other as they are quite even. I don't know why but they always run to my traps or forget that i can flee and hit their flank. And if you always win, the victory does not feel like one properly.

Not easy the other way either.

Have you considered that maybe you're playing two different games?

I, for instance, have a decent win record. However, I like to pick items that are never seen on the board and pull out things that nobody's ever heard of. Maybe your friends aren't playing a list that's designed specifically to win games, but rather they play lists that they have fun with.

If that's the case, the reason they dislike playing you is that you want to play a very different game than they do.

NakedBarbarian
20-05-2009, 12:01
I win about half my games: But the games I think im gonna get spanked i win and the games i think im a shoe in for i get spanked.....go figure

orkz222
20-05-2009, 12:08
You are not alone :)

Big time loser here :cries:

not counting combine games (2v2, 1v2 etc)

just 1v1:
My WE had been 0-4 (W/L) this yr. "best" result was a minor loss against a HE. Worst result was massacre by dwarfs LOL...

VC is 1-2 this yr. massacre by chaos mortals (I get 0 vp from that game)

I find my problem is I want to have fun/see some CC actions so will do some crazy/stupid moves to get into close combat fast totally ignoring what I'm charging into or what traps lay ahead of the baiting unit. If I play cautiously (aka boring game) I seldom lose. Also the dice gods are fickle.

To OP: I dont know if you have the same problems as me doing crazy moves but if you are having fun, win/lose dont matter.

Troah
20-05-2009, 14:16
Wow, 0-26 with Bret's? I didn't think it was possible.

That's just with the battles I can remember. There's probably more like 100 losses there.

As for my battles. When I'm Bretonnia I do chose my targets carefully, I never let my knights fall into traps or anything like that. It's more like, I charge something, somehow I only kill one or two things cause of bad luck, then they get swarmed by something I didn't know about. Or I go to cast a spell and my sorceress blows up and runs into my tribuchet. But most of the time it's my stupidly horrible luck.



Take the cheesiest demon list possible, after a few wins you will wish you could lose again:p

And no. I don't like playing Chaos I don't like how the army is in any way. I mainly just do Bretonnia and Lizardmen.

Feefait
20-05-2009, 14:24
sounds to me like you deserve the losses.

Kerill
20-05-2009, 14:30
It can't be bad luck that many times. And swarmed by something you didn't know about? Maybe your problem is not knowing other armies well enough?

Troah
20-05-2009, 14:32
It can't be bad luck that many times. And swarmed by something you didn't know about? Maybe your problem is not knowing other armies well enough?

I mean like stuff popping out of the ground or coming from a table edge into the fight.

Ultimate Life Form
20-05-2009, 14:38
I mean like stuff popping out of the ground or coming from a table edge into the fight.

Know thine enemy. It is crucial in this game. However you have been longer in that game than me and battled ten times as often, and I'm by far not the best player ever, but even I manage to win every now and then, so it must be something different.

Play against Orcs and watch the enemy fail his animosity checks. It's the most hilarious thing to witness and helps even the odds.
And seek an inferior opponent.

Troah
20-05-2009, 14:42
:S

Never fought Orcs. Just Dwarves (rarely), High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf(rarely), Vampire, Tomb King(rarely), Chaos Humans(rarely), and Skaven once.

TheDarkDuke
20-05-2009, 14:45
As for my battles. When I'm Bretonnia I do chose my targets carefully, I never let my knights fall into traps or anything like that. It's more like, I charge something, somehow I only kill one or two things cause of bad luck, then they get swarmed by something I didn't know about. Or I go to cast a spell and my sorceress blows up and runs into my tribuchet. But most of the time it's my stupidly horrible luck.


Sounds like rubber lance syndrome to me..... i know how that feels. i charged a unit of clan rats with my Kotr and i think i killed 1 rat then they had a better combat res and then i fled. Yeesh :(

kaulem
20-05-2009, 14:48
When I started playing, I actually finished 3rd in a tournent.

Then, I lost all my games 5 years straigtht. I kept blaming my luck.

My friends and I started going to tournaments regularly and the only poeple I would loose against were my friends... What I realized was that I was playing against some really tough dudes.

I started carefully watchi g how they played, adapted, got better and started wnning again.

Now, my record VS my friends is close to 50/50. At tournaments it's closer to 80/20 (wins/losses)

Observe, Adapt, change and you'll find something that works

slasher
20-05-2009, 14:58
Cannt say much - this year my lizards have won 3 lost 4, (then they figuered out how to kill my stegs)
WoC - lost 100%
Bretts - in the last 3 yrs have one once..... again a 2250 pts WoC army.

Keller
20-05-2009, 15:11
I've got the opposite situation. Against my regular two opponents, I win always. I think if we count 40k and FB i have won almost 50 games and got a draw once. It's pretty annoying because my friends enjoy more playing each other as they are quite even. I don't know why but they always run to my traps or forget that i can flee and hit their flank. And if you always win, the victory does not feel like one properly.

Not easy the other way either.
This is how things used to be in my gaming group. I had a 70%+ win record with my Empire, probably better with my VC (who I played considerably less frequently) against all 6 members of the group. I was always in the top 2 slots in our campaigns, usually #1 unless my nation was plagued by disaster repeatedly.


Have you considered that maybe you're playing two different games?

I, for instance, have a decent win record. However, I like to pick items that are never seen on the board and pull out things that nobody's ever heard of. Maybe your friends aren't playing a list that's designed specifically to win games, but rather they play lists that they have fun with.

If that's the case, the reason they dislike playing you is that you want to play a very different game than they do. I'm going to speak to this now, since its been mentioned. I know a lot of player rack up great records by playing WAAC vs fluff-based armies, but that wasn't me.

I like to challenge myself to win, but I hate using cookie-cutter lists and items. I always play around with different things, trying some obserd tactics and item combinations. I have 2000+ points of Militia Empire I made to test my limits. An Empire army without black powder, heavy armor, drilled detachment units, stubborn greatswords, or much in the way of magic items. Essentially, I threw away everything that makes the Empire able to stand up and played with units of Militia, backed by some archers and flagelants. I had about a 50% or less with this list, achieved mostly draws, but it was a blast.


When I started playing, I actually finished 3rd in a tournent.

Then, I lost all my games 5 years straigtht. I kept blaming my luck.

My friends and I started going to tournaments regularly and the only poeple I would loose against were my friends... What I realized was that I was playing against some really tough dudes.

I started carefully watchi g how they played, adapted, got better and started wnning again.

Now, my record VS my friends is close to 50/50. At tournaments it's closer to 80/20 (wins/losses)

Observe, Adapt, change and you'll find something that works
I think my opponents have gotten alot better since we started gaming almost a decade ago. Either that or their armies just carry them much further than they used to, since I don't win nearly as often as before. Now most of our games end in Draws or Minor Victories, by and large.

I was always one to fully immerse myself in the game. I loved assembling armies based on themes, but ones that I thought would be competative. I always came up with the theme first, then found the units to fit, not the other way around. I just studied up on all of my units, knew their potnetial, what to abvoid and what to seek out. I also learned alot about the other armies, just because I like to know what I am in for.

Enough tooting my own horn..



Troah, as others have said, you've obviously chosen this hobby for the right reasons to have stuck with it so long. Too many people play simply for the joys of winning, and will do anything to do so. Those are not the type of players I want to game with. I'd rather get to play against someone who enjoys themselve, whatever the outcome, so that I can better enjoy myself, with whatever results at the end.

Ravensgard
20-05-2009, 15:36
I know the feeling of bad luck, especially with dice. Therefore, threat them nicely (little bit of wine every night, nice soft pillows), if they still give you snake eyes etc, burn the bastards. It might not really work, but you might feel better afterwards :-)
Real advice now: read the manual and army books of your armies, know what they can do and what their strenghts and weakness are. Learn yourself to know what kind of play you like (close combat or shooting).

OldMan
20-05-2009, 15:53
Psychology. With such an aproach you are very likely to lose. Make a small break.

In my case 90% is won in my head. I almost never loose a battle i was confident to win, nor a win one I thouht i was going to loose.
The self-confidence thing works perfectly in WHFB.

Grimbrow
20-05-2009, 15:59
After getting into the game again about 8 months ago, I'm on something of a winning streak at the moment. I've found 2 things that seriously helped me start winning:

1. Composition: It takes alot of thought. I'd don't play major cheese, but at my club you'll lose if you don't take a competative list.
2. Math-hammer: I know it's all hypothetical, but i find it seriously helps when I have a good idea of the maths before I do something. Perfect answer if you have a job where you spend quite a bit of time bored :p

Charistoph
20-05-2009, 16:09
Sounds like he's a perfect person to use Daemons without being over powered! ;)

Troah
20-05-2009, 16:11
Sounds like he's a perfect person to use Daemons without being over powered! ;)

Lol...thanks. How are demons overpowered?


2. Math-hammer: I know it's all hypothetical, but i find it seriously helps when I have a good idea of the maths before I do something. Perfect answer if you have a job where you spend quite a bit of time bored :p

Math-hammer?????

valdrog
20-05-2009, 16:19
I see that the majority of your losses comes from playing Bretonians, your mistakes could be that you are not being aggresive enough with them.
Bretonians is a hammer army, you need to hit your oponent hard and fast, if you spend to much time moving arround your oponent is gonna be able to shoot the crap out of you and your Lances are gonna be weak by the time they see combat.

Gaargod
20-05-2009, 16:35
Mathhammer is working out the averages of what will happen in a combat/shooting. Doesn't work all the time, but its helpful.

Example: 6 KotR charging in against 18 saurus with spears (3 ranks of 6), both with full command.

Knights: 6 attacks, hitting on 3s gives 4 hits, wounding on 3s gives 8/3 wounds, 6+ armour saves means total of 40/18 wounds, or 2.22 wounds (doing things in fractions is a LOT easier)
Horsies: 5 attacks, hitting on 4s gives 5/2 hits, woundings on 5s gives 5/6 wounds, 4+ armour saves means a total of 5/12 wounds, or 0.42wounds.

So knights do 2.64 wounds in total. Call it 3 for convenience

Saurus:
5 models in contact with knights, 10 with spears. 3 dead, so 7 saurii, so 15 attacks back.
Hitting on 4s gives 15/2 hits, wounding on 3s gives 5 wounds, 3+ armour saves means 5/3 wounds, 6+ ward save gives a total of 25/18 wounds, or 1.40 dead knights. Call it 1 for convenience

At which stage, combat res:
Knights: rank + standard + 3 kills
Saurus: 2 ranks, standard, outnumber, kill

Drawn combat. And that's with kind rounding for the knights.
Next turn, knights go down to 4 attacks at S3 rather than S5. So more saurus attacks back as a lot less will die, and the knights will most likely lose combat.


End lesson: don't charge 6 KotR into 18 saurus with spears and hope to win. Instead, charge 2 units of 6. Or 6 with a battle standard bearer + warbanner, and be hopeful.



As for daemons overpowered, wait about a day, another thread will come up about daemons. Suffice to say, they can be built horribly broken

Grimbrow
20-05-2009, 16:53
Good example :) The lesson is, if you want to peform that charge, you probably need something else to back it up. The knights don't have a good chance of winning alone, so you'd refrain from doing it/bide your time. Practical Math-hammer in action.

semersonp
20-05-2009, 17:07
simple solution... shadow a player who wins from soup to nuts...

observe his army choice, composition, terrain/troop setup, movements, reactions and attitude... all the while questioning choices you don't understand or would not have made yourself...

do this with a lot of players... then play a game yourself using what you've learned...

you will lose this game, like as not... then do it again... and again... and again... but be sure to go back over your battles and learn from your mistakes - simple ones ( maybe i shouldn't have fielded a unit of 50 black orcs and placed them facing into the corner to begin the game ) to complex ones ( spell/charge order )...

if you meet a warhammer player who makes no mistakes, it's because he's made them all already...

so yeah, hook up with one of these guys and have them show you their system... then clear your mind and start your own from scratch, using the tools they've given you...

game well...

SplitJoin
20-05-2009, 17:18
End lesson: don't charge 6 KotR into 18 saurus with spears and hope to win. Instead, charge 2 units of 6. Or 6 with a battle standard bearer + warbanner, and be hopeful.


As a fellow terrible Warhammer player, this is the lesson I need to learn. I expect my units to fare better because they *look* dangerous on the tabletop.

I get caught up in the narrative too easily. When I start looking for targets to hit with my Empire Knights I start imagining all those movies where you see a devastating cavalry charge plow through infantry.

My knights usually end up being pulled off their horses by about 28 clanrats when they just shrug off the couple of rats that I killed on the charge and beat me on ranks & outnumbering. Or the knights win combat, the clanrats make their Ld test and they get overwhelmed next turn.

Not being able to make a Leadership test to save my life doesn't help.

Troah
20-05-2009, 17:22
End lesson: don't charge 6 KotR into 18 saurus with spears and hope to win. Instead, charge 2 units of 6. Or 6 with a battle standard bearer + warbanner, and be hopeful.

This is something I do not suffer from. I know how strong my knights are, I know that if I don't kill everything or almost everything after their charge then I'm a little screwed. Normally I have one knight unit charge something, have a backup knight unit incase something flanks the first unit, and recently I've been having Men-at-arms follow around my charging units to hold/support the chargers.

Nuada
20-05-2009, 17:29
observe his army choice, composition, terrain/troop setup, movements.

I think that's good advice.

When i started up again in 7th edition, i kept a record of the army lists i've used in previous games.(noting down which race you were fighting) Then it's easier to remember which units performed well, and how to tweak your army to suit your style of play.

It helped me alot.

DarkTerror
20-05-2009, 17:30
My three biggest jumps in Warhammer skill over the years were:

1) Math. Learn what should happen. People who are good at Warhammer try to avoid situations where it's improbable to lose.

Seem hard? Well, it's not as hard as you think. Some essentials in Warhammer are constant (movement, ranks, standard, etc.) and some things vary enormously (panic tests, shooting, etc.). Think through the math and avoid things where it looks like it's likely to be a toss-up. In the same realm of thought, know when you're beaten.

2) Baiting and Fleeting. Movement again is one of those constants you HAVE to master to get good at the game. Baiting is the #1 way to get your opponent's movement to fail. Look up strategies if you're not certain how to do it. Most new players don't think it's as valuable as it is.

3) Optimal Unit Sizes. This one takes time to learn and is math related, but eventually you'll see you may be overpaying for unit sizes. Do you need more models or less per unit? Play around with it, often less is more.

starlight
20-05-2009, 18:04
...if you meet a warhammer player who makes no mistakes, it's because he's made them all already...

Quoted for Truth! :D

Charistoph
20-05-2009, 18:24
It sounds like he knows what he is doing, for the most part, it's just that he can't get the rolls or numbers to save his life.

That's why Daemons would probably work for him. Daemons have a lot of advantages in that they have good stats, good movement, Immune to Psychology, cheap for their power level, etc. Over all, they are an army with many strengths and very few weaknesses.

VC could also work. They provide a lot of strengths, and can easily cover many of their weaknesses.

Lizardmen are also good, but looks like he's tried them...

Troah
20-05-2009, 18:30
Yeah I've never liked playing Chaos there's just something about them that doesn't sit right with me. The Chaos Humans I can kind of play without hating it however, but I still don't enojy it as much. and NO! I can't play VC, they're my friends army and I have a grudge against him and that army. Bretonnia must slay all the blood dragons. :'( He called my army pathetic and better useful dead.

Zoolander
20-05-2009, 18:35
I think everyone starts off that way. Most people tend to get better over time. The trick to getting better is to see what mistakes you are making and try to learn from them. Not that I win all the time or anything like that, but once I could see where I went wrong after each game, and didn't blame it on the units I was facing ("damn those chaos warriors are ridiculous!"), I realized I was becoming a better player. You need to evaluate your losses and try to determine why you lost. Then attempt to NOT make the same mistakes next game. Also, some people are surprised to learn that a heavy part of winning a game is list composition. So many games are lost from the beginning because of a bad list. Hopefully, you will get better, but I think you are playing with the right attitude, and I congratulate you.

O&G'sRule
20-05-2009, 18:46
So, I have this reputation, a reputation that I am ashamed of. I've played Warhammer for 5 years. In those 5 years I've played so many battles I could never count them all. My wins however, I can count with only one hand. I have won only once in Warhammer Fantasy. Once, with an army that wasn't mine, using the worlds most basic of all tactics and some of the weakest units. My single victory was using 6th edition Chaos Mauraders with great weapons vs Dwarves. It was a game with no magic. All I did was make a line, and marched forward.

Does anyone else suck as much as I do at this game?:cries:

Who cares, its great you've got the sense of humour and personality to keep playing regardless.

CauCaSus
20-05-2009, 19:12
I have the same problem with 40k. I don't lose *that* often, but I still very rarely win.

I was on a hiatus from GW games for a few years and I actually think the years I've spent maturing has reflected in my gaming. I no longer run my little plastic mans towards the enemy yelling "PEW! PEW!" (or at least thinking it), I put a little more thought and dare I say cynisim ( :eek: ) in my games.

40k and Fantasy are two very different games, I used to be pretty good at the latter, but now I'm getting a hang of the first as well.

PxDn Ninja
20-05-2009, 19:15
So, I have this reputation, a reputation that I am ashamed of. I've played Warhammer for 5 years. In those 5 years I've played so many battles I could never count them all. My wins however, I can count with only one hand. I have won only once in Warhammer Fantasy. Once, with an army that wasn't mine, using the worlds most basic of all tactics and some of the weakest units. My single victory was using 6th edition Chaos Mauraders with great weapons vs Dwarves. It was a game with no magic. All I did was make a line, and marched forward.

Does anyone else suck as much as I do at this game?:cries:


How are your dice rolls. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are, if the roles are against you it then nothing you can do. I like to think I'm not terrible at this game, but I barely manage to win each time I play (if I win) and it usually is because of some rediculous dice rolls. Losing a Skulltaker to a single zombie comes to mind off the top of my head....

Troah
20-05-2009, 19:18
Ummmmm, well yesterday I was Lizardmen in a 4,000 battle against High Elves. I had 2 Slann and about 2 or 3 priests and I probably miscasted 8 to 10 times and only once had an irresistable force, but that was only for a ward that didn't help at all.

starlight
20-05-2009, 19:32
3,000pt Snotling Horde (old back of the book list) vs Empire. First shot of the game took the head off one of my Giants. :( The game went downhill from there... :(


Sometimes you just have to sit back and have fun. :)

larabic
20-05-2009, 19:47
When you charge, roll the horses attacks first, swear to gods it works...

DarkTerror
20-05-2009, 20:22
Ummmmm, well yesterday I was Lizardmen in a 4,000 battle against High Elves. I had 2 Slann and about 2 or 3 priests and I probably miscasted 8 to 10 times and only once had an irresistable force, but that was only for a ward that didn't help at all.

Have you considered new dice?

Actually, screw considering. Go out and get yourself some new dice quickly.

Gaargod
20-05-2009, 21:39
Actually, miscasting with that many casters about 8 times isn't THAT unlucky. Could work out the average, but my head works when i try to do n-dimensional cubes.

What is unlucky is only getting 1 IF.


All honesty, i generally find luck evens out. Just sometimes not in a useful way. I.e. unit of cold one riders failing 4 out of 6 stupidity tests in a game. In the same game, skinks survive and hold a charge from chaos knights. Not helpful, but pretty lucky :D


Playing blood bowl is the biggest example of this ever. Every damm game i play, my luck first half is atrocious. Failing the 3+ rerollable pick up of ball first turn of game happens nearly every time. Next half, I manage to pass the 6 dozen tests i need every time.

Luck sometimes hates you too. You'll pass stupidity tests on every turn, except the one you really need to. Your knights will do perfect every time they charge, except for the one all-or-nothing charge the game swings on, for which they have completely run out of wooden lances, and are down to soft plastic.

shadowskale
20-05-2009, 21:58
So, I have this reputation, a reputation that I am ashamed of. I've played Warhammer for 5 years. In those 5 years I've played so many battles I could never count them all. My wins however, I can count with only one hand. I have won only once in Warhammer Fantasy. Once, with an army that wasn't mine, using the worlds most basic of all tactics and some of the weakest units. My single victory was using 6th edition Chaos Mauraders with great weapons vs Dwarves. It was a game with no magic. All I did was make a line, and marched forward.

Does anyone else suck as much as I do at this game?:cries:

Ahem, some tips.
1) post your armys on the army list threads here. listen to what poeple have to say about your list and edit it. 2) look around for "Tactics" both on warseer and other sites, they will give you a good idea of what to do with the units you have ect. 3) ask questions to the poeple you lose to, when you lose say "How did I go wrong" if there friendly they will tell you, then you know what NOT to do next time. 4) look at your army's weakness, every army has a weekness learning how to accept it is the key. like with most common daemon lists are weak to gunlines. Ogres suffer badly to skinks and other cheep shooty units. 5) dont lose hope because you lose alot, its importiant to remember that before you can win, you have to lose, else you'll never get better.

hope all this advice helps you.
oh and remember warhammer is all about fun. win or lose.

starlight
20-05-2009, 22:14
When you get the new dice, be sure to sacrifice the old ones to the Dice Gods in suitable spectacular fashion...right in front of the new ones...:)...make them watch...:D....make them understand the price of failure... :evilgrin:


:angel:

Deon
20-05-2009, 22:18
When you get the new dice, be sure to sacrifice the old ones to the Dice Gods in suitable spectacular fashion...right in front of the new ones...:)...make them watch...:D....make them understand the price of failure... :evilgrin:


:angel:

be sure to torture them befor the sacrifice, by khorn it helps:evilgrin:

Souppilgrim
20-05-2009, 22:52
When you charge, roll the horses attacks first, swear to gods it works...

^ that does help. If im having a "bag luck" game. I'll walk away from the table with 4 dice or whatever and roll them until I get 2 bad rolls in a row. I then pick the dice up walk back to the real table and roll. Seems to work.

Your gaming group should help you out. You should play a battle that is just a test run. Your opponent should tell you his tactics OPENLY and tell you everything he is going to do ahead of time. He should also tell you the best way for your army to respond to what he is going to do. Just a test battle where he tells you how to beat him as the game goes on. It will work wonders I personally promise.

shadowskale
20-05-2009, 23:03
be sure to torture them befor the sacrifice, by khorn it helps:evilgrin:

and plesure the dice if you sacrifce them to slaanesh ;D

Shamfrit
20-05-2009, 23:20
:eyebrows:

Image. Not. Need!

But to the matter at hand, the issue is all about perseverance. If you're the sort to retry a specific level or boss on a computer game, and no matter how wound up you get then you're likely to start winning eventually, put simply, don't give up. Try every tactic and army list you can devise and read everything you can, absorb information like a sponge and not only will you develop your own cut and pasted ideologies from that, you might even hand somebody's models to them by the bucket load, preferably without dropping them ;)

Troah
20-05-2009, 23:22
When you get the new dice, be sure to sacrifice the old ones to the Dice Gods in suitable spectacular fashion...right in front of the new ones...:)...make them watch...:D....make them understand the price of failure... :evilgrin:


:angel:

@.@ Yes....The only way to bring good luck is to use, sacrifice! *Looks maniacally at old dice*

Troah
21-05-2009, 00:25
Well, fought High Elf today with Lizardmen. 2 Bolt Thrower tore me up. By the time I was able to charge some of his units my units were already half dead from getting shot at even with an EotG warding thing. His Swordmasters were able to luckly survive and whip around flanking some of my saurus. I charged at the Swordmasters with my Cold Ones, taking a few hits but finally killing the Swordmasters. Some Dragonknights ran past my army and was able to charge my units that were hanging back incase I got flanked, took them out pretty fast. Then he was able to charge my temple guard and by then it was pretty much over. My 3 skink units got shot down pretty fast but I used them to cover the Saurus. My Terradon's were able to take out one Bolt Thrower before getting charged by an Eagle, somehow I missed with my attacks, so it held them there and they were charged by pheonix guard and died.

I took out a nice chunk of his army, but still lost as always. I want to say I'm getting better, I've been keeping an open mind, I've read tons of tactica's for both High Elf and Lizardmen. Maybe I'm just not ment to win? My rolling wasn't bad this game, had a few bad luck moments about about one or two good luck ones. Overall it was average though.

Machinehead
21-05-2009, 00:57
Troah I believe I have found a kindred spirit in you lmao.
Your W/L record (or as I like to call it my "opponent's self-esteem record") are probably similar. I've managed to win no games of fantasy, and I've played Ogres, Empire (I bring 2 cannons not cause it's cheese, but because one will misfire in the first turn) and I just had a 1000 pts game with High Elves...I brought a dragon and it ran off the board. 40k is similar, I couldn't win with Space Marines and have 2 wins with my Dark Eldar.

We can read all the tactica we want, play as many games as we want, but when the only 6's you see are on Leadership rolls it doesn't seem to matter lol.

Troah
21-05-2009, 01:01
Troah I believe I have found a kindred spirit in you lmao.
Your W/L record (or as I like to call it my "opponent's self-esteem record") are probably similar. I've managed to win no games of fantasy, and I've played Ogres, Empire (I bring 2 cannons not cause it's cheese, but because one will misfire in the first turn) and I just had a 1000 pts game with High Elves...I brought a dragon and it ran off the board. 40k is similar, I couldn't win with Space Marines and have 2 wins with my Dark Eldar.

We can read all the tactica we want, play as many games as we want, but when the only 6's you see are on Leadership rolls it doesn't seem to matter lol.


Amen, lol.
:D

Lord Dan
21-05-2009, 02:20
make them understand the price of failure

Actually I recommend you do the same thing with the new dice. Line them up, count off, and execute every 10th dice.

You shouldn't have any problems after that.

Nightsword
21-05-2009, 09:35
Have you considered trying different items and setups on your heroes and lords, or change the composition of the army and try out a new units or something? For example, Cupped Hands of the Old Ones on one of your slaan would help if they miscast (well, being one use only, his first miscast).

There's also the systematic approach you could take. I remember reading a tactica in White Dwarf where the author labelled out all of the choices in the opponents army, their strengths and weaknesses, any special rules you needed to worry about (for example, the HE bolt thrower can fire multi or single shot, all daemons are Immune to Psychology etc) and what he had in his army that could counter them. So label them Lords/heroes/core/special/rare and from there, prioritise your targets. If warmachines are your bane, target them first. Chameleon skinks and terradons would be useful in this role. Consider Tictaq'to and bring on your terradons from behind the enemy, use your own "thing they don't know about".

I definantly recomment posting your army lists. Do it!

shadowskale
21-05-2009, 09:57
Well, fought High Elf today with Lizardmen. 2 Bolt Thrower tore me up. By the time I was able to charge some of his units my units were already half dead from getting shot at even with an EotG warding thing. His Swordmasters were able to luckly survive and whip around flanking some of my saurus. I charged at the Swordmasters with my Cold Ones, taking a few hits but finally killing the Swordmasters. Some Dragonknights ran past my army and was able to charge my units that were hanging back incase I got flanked, took them out pretty fast. Then he was able to charge my temple guard and by then it was pretty much over. My 3 skink units got shot down pretty fast but I used them to cover the Saurus. My Terradon's were able to take out one Bolt Thrower before getting charged by an Eagle, somehow I missed with my attacks, so it held them there and they were charged by pheonix guard and died.

I took out a nice chunk of his army, but still lost as always. I want to say I'm getting better, I've been keeping an open mind, I've read tons of tactica's for both High Elf and Lizardmen. Maybe I'm just not ment to win? My rolling wasn't bad this game, had a few bad luck moments about about one or two good luck ones. Overall it was average though.

seems like your getting better.
don't read up -too- much on high elves, if you have a bad memory focus on your own army. also remember skinks are DEADLY shooters and could probably take out most of his core troops, and the crew to the blot thrower.

librerian_samae
21-05-2009, 10:24
Remkinds me of my luck, when I first started playing warhammer properly I chose a skink based lizardmen army.

I was told it was a stupid cheesy list that would be boring for everyone else.
(I just liked the models at the time and the idea of dinos and squishy dudes)

Then I played my first Game a reasonably low magic infantry based vampire counts list.

Did everything I could right march blocked, blow piped the flanks and threatened his rear with terradons whilst combo charging with krox through skink screens.

However my plans seemed to always fail due to duff dice rolls.

one of the worst parts being halfway through the game after failing to whittle much away I tried blow piping and magic-ing away his wight king and retinue, due to a nasty rod of flaming death that could hurt my main combat units and their screen if he got too close.

needless to say after a botched magic phase and yet more horendessly inefective shooting he reordered his ranks and flamed my brave skinks to a crisp causing a panic check...

...they failed causing every other unit they ran near to panic.

Cue the halarius sight of almost an entire army legging it off the board in 2 turns due to one shooting attack.

Now THAT'S bad luck :p

GuyLeCheval
21-05-2009, 10:29
I think I've said this before, but dude, you are the best WHF player on this forum cuz you are the only one who presents us a sif with no wins. the fact you have the guts to show us that, makes you the best. Go on.

(No sarcasm intended if someone thinks that.)

librerian_samae
21-05-2009, 10:34
SIF? whats that stand for?

Troah
21-05-2009, 11:40
Something about my signature I am assuming, and thanks lol.

Ixquic
21-05-2009, 13:41
I have a curse named after me at the store I go to since I am legendary for horrible dice rolls. However I still have a pretty good win record and have won several tourneys and usually get to the finals or rank pretty high. You can get around bad luck. I've also noticed a lot of bad luck is just a pessimistic outlook.

I would suggest trying to minimize the amount of "luck" you have to deal with. First is if you think you are unlucky magic is not for you. Wizards are going to miscast (sometimes to the point where they aren't wizards anymore) and you just have to accept that. I would suggest running a dwarf army. You can re-roll bad artillery rolls, get 2+ to hit, 2+ to wound with your lord, lots of high combat resolutions with +1 CR runes to pad for bad rolls during hand to hand, lots of ways to get around psychology, no magic to worry about and lots of anti-magic to stuff other people. It has a lot of bad luck leeway. You can even use Thorek if you just need a confidence booster. I doubt people are going to bitch about you being cheesy and taking him if you have never won a game.

Lord Dan
21-05-2009, 13:47
I doubt people are going to bitch about you being cheesy and taking him if you have never won a game.

That is, until he starts winning every game...

Ixquic
21-05-2009, 13:56
At that point he can ween himself off the training wheels once he realizes that it's possible to actually win. If you think you're going to lose, you're going to lose.

Troah
21-05-2009, 15:15
Eh, I'm really not looking for a new army, just want to improve my skills on the current ones I have.

valdrog
21-05-2009, 16:40
Im Cuban, i got some Santeria connections, i'll sacrafice a chicken to make your dice roll good.

Troah
21-05-2009, 20:34
Im Cuban, i got some Santeria connections, i'll sacrafice a chicken to make your dice roll good.

Ummm...lol no thanks.

Mireadur
21-05-2009, 22:30
definitely way easier to win through 40k since the dice mean like 70% of the game there, while fantasy has all kind of mitigations for randomness.

I have a friend who is near your levels of win/lose, one of the few games he's ever won was curiously with his eldar agaisnt my SM =).

I dont know the reasons for which you lose so often, but my friend's reasons are that he never thinks ahead of whats hes doing or want to do. He also gives little though to army composition (not a main factor as nobody i know makes lists which force to counter-tailor) but the real reason is that once the battle begins he seems to just make random decissions about what he does, when he does it and why he does it :P

Finally the best advice i can give to you, as probably the reason for you to lose so much is along these lines, it is to always measure forces during deployment and before doing a charge, and also before deciding what to shoot with your units.
Always look for match ups that should ensure your victory and aim for them with your movement. For the shooting, aim for the targets that can hurt your army the worst or those you will need to soften for your troops to win a fight.

Do mental calculations for the odds of success of your combats before you get into them.

Finally, if you often find yourself unable to avoid really disadvantageous fights, you will need to start using tactics such as baiting/redirecting or just sacrificing cannon fodder.

Good luck!

Horus38
22-05-2009, 00:26
Lol...a win now and then would be nice. I even got a handicap once, 3,000 vs 4,000 and I still lost.

WOW :confused: Care to elaborate on how that went down?

Don't sweat it man if you're having fun. If you're really bent outta shape over it I'd recommend identifying what you're problem is:

*Army list composition
*Tactics employed in game (or lack thereof apparently)
*Bad match up's, bad dice, bad luck, etc. etc.

Once you've identified the problem just start working on that area. Read up on what good solid lists are, what good tactics are for your chosen force, etc. You can only get better, and if you don't have a good enough grasp on the rules (although after 5 years?) just hit the BRB again hard.

Troah
22-05-2009, 00:31
WOW :confused: Care to elaborate on how that went down?

Bretonnia vs Wood Elf on a large battlefield. He just kept running and shooting, could never catch him. We should of fought on a lot smaller area of play...it was like 6 ft by 6 ft.

Horus38
22-05-2009, 00:56
Bretonnia vs Wood Elf on a large battlefield. He just kept running and shooting, could never catch him. We should of fought on a lot smaller area of play...it was like 6 ft by 6 ft.

*low whistle* Yea, I could see that happening.

Keller
22-05-2009, 13:17
Troah, might I suggest playing some smaller games? It seems most of yours are rather high point levels, levels at which the game can be harder to play with all the more big characters and elites running about. Try some 1K and 1500 point games; they are fast and quite a bit different than 3K+ games.

Dark_Knight
22-05-2009, 13:33
There was a strategy guide posted to the warseer website a while back. It was awesome. It really broke down what to consider when advancing your units, how to build a list, and what you are up against with other armies. I was getting massacred by my friends wood elves time after time as I was a new player. Lately though I am making it so that I can get draws and I feel a win coming on. :) Make it hard for your opponents to win. A tough win is always enjoyed and more rewarding than an easy win. Make a name for yourself as a tough opponent. Also make small goals for your games. Such as; I will attempt to take my opponents BSB, or I will try to kill the opponents general/tough unit.

gonzosbignose
22-05-2009, 13:33
Are we allowed to say... yes you suck... or are we required to put in helpful hints? ;)

Regards

My name is Daniel and i am a wargamer

Billpete002
22-05-2009, 14:35
I used to lose all the time to my friend's Tomb King's army (he took the bone giant army...)

I finally whooped his butt by taking 1 extra cannon (I normally used 2) - this was what broke his army's back and I don't think I lost from there on out.

If you are playing friendly non-tourney games, you should know who you are fighting ahead of time and what army they are fielding and the points.

Now I am a big person to keeping a fluffy army, but if you wanna win occasionally you gotta up the ante.

Post your Bretonnian list (your most common list) OR all the Bretonnian models you have. We can help you make that into a lean mean fighting force.

W0lf
22-05-2009, 14:58
Losing all the time beats winnig all the time.

I myself cant honestly imagine how you can lose 26 straight games with bretts. Its incomprehendible to me to lose that much. But meh i win 90% of my games so maybe its just me.

Master Stark
22-05-2009, 15:42
Im Cuban, i got some Santeria connections, i'll sacrafice a chicken to make your dice roll good.

Could you sacrifice one for me? I could use all the help I can get!

Master Stark
22-05-2009, 15:47
*low whistle* Yea, I could see that happening.

I can't!

How could you not catch him? You have multiple heavy cav units with 16" charge ranges, some of the heaviest hitting fliers in the game, the Green Knight who can pop out of terrain features, and plenty of 30" shooting of your own.

How on earth were you not able to catch them?!

Charistoph
22-05-2009, 16:07
I can't!

How could you not catch him? You have multiple heavy cav units with 16" charge ranges, some of the heaviest hitting fliers in the game, the Green Knight who can pop out of terrain features, and plenty of 30" shooting of your own.

How on earth were you not able to catch them?!

Wood Elf infantry moves 5", cavalry moves 9". Their cavalry can move 18" per turn. Their Core cavalry can then shoot 30" in any direction without even noticing they moved. If they move through a forest, the Knights get bogged down. Knights chasing cavalry can get flanked if they ignore infantry to the side.

Those are just the basics, it gets more involved depending on the units on boths sides. It's possible that the OP doesn't have (or possibly want) pegasi or the Green Knight.

Troah
22-05-2009, 16:10
He was on horses at moved 18". What he did was split his army in half, making me either split my army or charge just one side of his. I was stupid and didn't realize that he could run faster then me, so I charged all one side. That one side just kept running, while his other side got behind me, I and shot me. If I turned around it would of cut my movement in half, giving him more time to shoot me, and then run when I got close. It took a while to kill my knights, but he did kill them. :-/

PeeKay
22-05-2009, 16:12
I don't think anyone has suggested this but go out and buy some loaded dice...

"If at first you don't succeed then cheat"

Troah
22-05-2009, 16:19
I don't think anyone has suggested this but go out and buy some loaded dice...

"If at first you don't succeed then cheat"

Lol! Oh that just brightend up my day. :D

Troah
22-05-2009, 16:48
So this is the army list I've been trying out. Bunch of people have told me to post it, so here it is.
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200696

Krom The Eternal
22-05-2009, 17:21
to be perfectly honest with you, Ive been building warhammer for 8 years and playing for 6 and you know, Ive never won a game... hahaha, The closest Ive come was last week. I was playing my WoC vs. dark elves at 2000 points. We had to call the game on the count of time and i believe the only reason i wasn't slaughtered was my unit of 25 marauders with wulfrick deep striking near the 3x repeater bolt throwers. lol, I tried casting infernal gateway like 6 times but to no avail my sorcerer lord was charged and slain by morathi and 6 dark riders who killed him and over ran into my warriors flank who were already in combat with 40ish DE spearmen hahaha anyway your not the only one who loses alot mate dont let it get ya down its all about having a good time with good people!!!

ArghaBlargh
22-05-2009, 19:22
First, Warhammer is a game of maneuver. Really. All the other stuff, shooting, magic and what have you is just support for your maneuvering combat units. Make sure you flank the enemy more than he flanks you and you'll win most of the time. This you do with stuff like baiting and fleeing. This is really the biggest downside with playing VC (as I do), you have no units that can flee. On the other hand, you make that up a bit by being able to raise zombies and VanHels them into flanks and rears.

Secondly, plan ahead. Visualize how the battlefield is going to look and develop during the rest of the game or at minimum the next few turns. Make a battleplan, and have at least rough reserve plans on how to counter the enemy when he tries to disrupt your plan. "If he does that, I'll do this, and then he might do either that or that, which I will respond to like this or this...". It's the same as in chess, except I'm pretty good at planning ahead in Warhammer but suck at it in chess. Probably because it's far more abstract.

Third, it never hurts to have a surprise up your sleeve. That's more about army composition than battlefield tactics, but some evil little combo the enemy hasn't even imagined could exist can really throw a spanner in his works.'

Edit: Oh yeah, one more thing. Math Hammer. Crunch the numbers. How many guys are going to die on average when you send a lance of 6 knights charging at them? If you want you can do stuff like standard deviation ("if I fail, what's the probability of failing disastrously vs. just failing a bit?") but that's not really needed.

Malorian
22-05-2009, 20:02
THE MYSTERY IS SOLVED!!!


We play on in an area that is 4'6" x 4'6" with 6" of deployment zone. So you can't charge till turn 3-4.

He's being cheated!!! :mad:

Deon
22-05-2009, 22:33
hey troah to bad your being cheated,
but let us know how your next game turns out
and if you played it on a normal table an a normal deployment zone.

Souppilgrim
23-05-2009, 01:28
THE MYSTERY IS SOLVED!!!



He's being cheated!!! :mad:

Yep, he even said he likes to play out a lot of close combat. You are totally getting cheated. Take a gunline with some anti-gunline choices and you will see a different outcome.

Troah
23-05-2009, 01:30
Yep, he even said he likes to play out a lot of close combat. You are totally getting cheated. Take a gunline with some anti-gunline choices and you will see a different outcome.

Lol...Bretonnia and Lizardmen don't have a gunline. ^_^

Souppilgrim
23-05-2009, 01:45
Lol...Bretonnia and Lizardmen don't have a gunline. ^_^

You can make a bit of a gunline/anti with Liz.

Master Stark
23-05-2009, 02:37
He was on horses at moved 18". What he did was split his army in half, making me either split my army or charge just one side of his. I was stupid and didn't realize that he could run faster then me, so I charged all one side. That one side just kept running, while his other side got behind me, I and shot me. If I turned around it would of cut my movement in half, giving him more time to shoot me, and then run when I got close. It took a while to kill my knights, but he did kill them. :-/

What you need to do is use each unit to cover the one(s) in front. So if he gets behind one unit, he is in charge range of the one behind it. This way you can dominate large chunks of the board.

bork da basher
23-05-2009, 06:45
skill at warhammer comes from endless practice, learning from your myriad of mistakes, knowledge and the luck of the dice gods. without blowing my own trumpet im actually what i consider a good player, my win-loose ratio is about 7:1 i have good knowledge of most armies having played all but chaos dwarfs at some point in my gaming career.

i've been playing warhammer for 15 years and it took a good while to get half decent, usually getting thrashed by more experienced players and paying attention to how they thrashed me. reading and learning the rules correctly, knowing the enemy army books inside and out etc etc.

these days i have to say i am a competative player in the sense that i dislike holding back on a list or tactic that i know will work. i don't play in a cheesey way, or spam certain units to death but i won't not take this or that or X or Y because of blah blah. if you play me you play someone who wants to beat you with a good list and good tactics.
now i think this way of thinking has made me into a good player because when your playing with too light a heart just for fun you tend to just throw things about a little and neuter your lists and generally not give it your all. you begin to loose and you get even more careless and it devolves into case of kill me quick so i can pack up my crap and go home. playing with a desire to win (not to be confused with WAAC) you play harder, you think alot more you look at the table with a differant eye and see things you would'nt otherwise notice. when you look at your enemy's army you see instantly what he will do and how, use some maths and figure out where he could be in 1-3 turns and how you would react, look at his units and heros and you can in most cases guess what magic items they will be carrying or what role they will play. basically your looking at his army and thinking what you would do in his stead. playing to win i believe improves your skills but you really have to think and put some effort into each victory (unless you play demons of course ;-) )

judging from your list i'd say you really don't need help making army lists, the list looks fine to me, i'd proberly drop the trebuchets (how ungallent of you) and buy another unit of gallopy doom but thats me.

look at your army.

all have great saves bar a handful of figures
all are quite brave and won't run easily
all bar a few are fast, heavy hitters on the charge
small unit count but elite.
little magic offense, reasonable magic defense.
good combat orientated charecters.

now at first glance you have to do one thing. you HAVE TO get the charge. and with all these fast knights with great charge range there really is no reason why you should'nt be. the first turn will be the set up and by turn 2-3 you should be charging en masse. your units are powerful enough to break the majority of units on the charge and you should always always seek to do that. charge units you KNOW will break, don't throw a unit of knights onto something that will likely survive and bog you down into combat. if you cant break the unit dont charge the unit unless its somehow vital to do so.

so you pick on weaker units and you punch right through the line in theory. the idea is then to roll the enemy up. you should have access to flanks and rear charges which will crack open his elite units. once your amongst him they're proberly isn't much he can do.

obviously things are never this simple and there are alot of factors involved but this is basically how your bretts should be winning games. you have speed, hitting power, armour and bravery which against most armies will give you huge advantage. you are going to struggle against offensive magic and heavy shooting/artillery but your speed should cut down your casualties.

think before you do anything and think how your opponant will react, judge who will come out on top and go from there.

good luck to you.

Quetzl
23-05-2009, 10:11
So, I have this reputation, a reputation that I am ashamed of. I've played Warhammer for 5 years. In those 5 years I've played so many battles I could never count them all. My wins however, I can count with only one hand. I have won only once in Warhammer Fantasy. Once, with an army that wasn't mine, using the worlds most basic of all tactics and some of the weakest units. My single victory was using 6th edition Chaos Mauraders with great weapons vs Dwarves. It was a game with no magic. All I did was make a line, and marched forward.

Does anyone else suck as much as I do at this game?:cries:

Listen to Podhammer and BadDice and it'll open your eyes :)

fubukii
23-05-2009, 18:39
try playing on a 4x6 with a 12 inch zone thats a 24 inch gap. im sure you will win games when you play with the real rules

Troah
24-05-2009, 01:36
Oh my God! I almost won! I made my High Elf friend deploy the right way, with 24" of no-man's-land and I almost won! When I say almost I mean, he only having one unit of 7 Swordmasters left and me with only one unit of 3 Knights of the Realm and a Paladin. I was able to charge him, he killed 2 of my knights, I killed 2 sword masters. Sadly he rolled snake eye's and didn't run. Next turn he struck me, killed my last knight and got my Paladin down to one wound. I didn't kill anything, I lost combat and had to run, ran 5" and he ran 8".

But the point is I almost won! =D
Thank you whomever it was that told me that we were deploying wrong!!!! <33333

Lord Anathir
24-05-2009, 02:25
remember to play only 6 turns too. not a last man standing game.

Troah
24-05-2009, 02:30
remember to play only 6 turns too. not a last man standing game.

Eh, now that's no fun. We play last man standing, always. Even I enjoy that.

Lord Dan
24-05-2009, 05:03
Eh, now that's no fun. We play last man standing, always. Even I enjoy that.

While a last man standing game is fun now and then, it means you basically auto-lose against some armies. VC, for instance, would win basically every game if it wasn't for the turn cap.

Troah
24-05-2009, 05:14
While a last man standing game is fun now and then, it means you basically auto-lose against some armies. VC, for instance, would win basically every game if it wasn't for the turn cap.

How so? If you mean how they can raise their units with magic, you just take out the necromancer and their general, the army will crumble and die.

Charistoph
24-05-2009, 05:40
How so? If you mean how they can raise their units with magic, you just take out the necromancer and their general, the army will crumble and die.

As cheap as some of these spells are, especially after paying for that little Vampire ability that reduces casting costs, and the ability for the same wizard to cast it multiple times, it makes for a bit less balance.

Troah
24-05-2009, 05:51
As cheap as some of these spells are, especially after paying for that little Vampire ability that reduces casting costs, and the ability for the same wizard to cast it multiple times, it makes for a bit less balance.

But it also increases the chance of miscast, and from what I know of Vampire Counts the units they rasie, skeletons and ghouls, aren't that grand.

Lord Dan
24-05-2009, 06:00
But it also increases the chance of miscast, and from what I know of Vampire Counts the units they rasie, skeletons and ghouls, aren't that grand.

Actually they roll on one dice, so they can't miscast. Also, "kill their general" isn't a terribly viable strategy when a 450 point vampire will kill just about anything you throw at it. Because what happens if you fail to kill him? All of a sudden you have nothing to stop him from casting, you're losing men, and he's gaining men. The fact that you will lose a "last man standing" game is thus inevitable.

Grimstonefire
24-05-2009, 11:49
Something I wanted to pick up on you mentioned earlier, how much of your army are you holding back Troah?

It is a careful balance how much to have as support. I've been on the receiving end of some all out attacks from brets... Not pleasant. Give it a go and see what happens.

How do you play the support elements to try and get them into combats quickly? More so than a lot of armies I see timing as being crucial for brets. Hesitation or indecisiveness can kill them. No experience of playing lizardmen since their revamp, so no help there.

Harwammer
24-05-2009, 13:07
I'm glad to hear you're doing better now you are deploying 12 inches from the centre, but remember the opponent can elect to deploy further back on the board if he wants.

Against a gunline opponent on a 4 foot 6 inch deep board you might be looking at turn 3 charges, so taking trebuchets wouldn't be too bad, but over guess the ranges a little bit; a hit will still be killing some enemy back rankers, but it will take alot of bad luck to scatter far enough towards your knights enough to kill a significant number.

Congrats on the near win against high elves; considering how close it was if you keep playing similar matches to that luck dictates eventually you will win (especially as he rolled snake eyes)!

Personally I think you are a great warhammer player for your perseverance and sporting attitude!

Dexter099
24-05-2009, 21:28
Go read tactica articles, your game will improve greatly.

And you're not the worst, by far. I left the general area for a few months. When I got back, I learned that one of friends had played 56 times over the summer.

He lost 53 times, and won 3 times.

He had been playing for 3 years, and never won a game until that point.

Troah
25-05-2009, 01:28
Go read tactica articles, your game will improve greatly.

And you're not the worst, by far. I left the general area for a few months. When I got back, I learned that one of friends had played 56 times over the summer.

He lost 53 times, and won 3 times.

He had been playing for 3 years, and never won a game until that point.

Lol this year alone I've played about that many games and havn't won any. :D
But good luck to your friend.

@Grimstonefire. I don't hold back much, it depends on who I'm fighting. When it's undead I hold atleast one or two unit of knights to flank their flankers, I normally keep my Men-At-Arms in the back, cause they're slow, to help protect my knights from the rear and sides.

ArghaBlargh
25-05-2009, 12:44
Oh my God! I almost won! I made my High Elf friend deploy the right way, with 24" of no-man's-land and I almost won! When I say almost I mean, he only having one unit of 7 Swordmasters left and me with only one unit of 3 Knights of the Realm and a Paladin. I was able to charge him, he killed 2 of my knights, I killed 2 sword masters. Sadly he rolled snake eye's and didn't run. Next turn he struck me, killed my last knight and got my Paladin down to one wound. I didn't kill anything, I lost combat and had to run, ran 5" and he ran 8".

But the point is I almost won! =D
Thank you whomever it was that told me that we were deploying wrong!!!! <33333
Congrats! :D

Master Stark
25-05-2009, 13:04
Eh, now that's no fun. We play last man standing, always. Even I enjoy that.

Try playing with victory points from time to time. You might notice you've technically been 'winning' games for years.

W0lf
25-05-2009, 13:13
Yeah to the death seems like itd be bad for bretts. VPs are a FAR FAR fairer way of playing.

Both WoC and Vampires (armies i play) get a ridiculous power buff in 'to the death' type games (not that i play them ever).

Warhammer is a game of dodgy balance but it is most balanced at 2K with 6 turn game limit.

Harwammer
25-05-2009, 14:01
I agree with the above; warhammer is about grabbing standards, assassinating enemy generals and occupying land just as much as it is about beating the enemy down.

Playing for VPs adds an extra dimension to warhammer, this stops the game from just becoming about who can castle best. Playing to the death gives an unfair advantage to attrition armies; army books are designed for a 6 turn game starting ~24 inches apart.

Considering the deployment and victory rules you guys have been using I don't think you have been playing warhammer at all. At least this means you haven't lost any 'real' games :D

Troah
25-05-2009, 16:49
Eh, me and my Warhammer pals really don't like the concept of victory points or playing only 6 turns. That's like eating only half of the piece of cake you get on your birthday.

YTY
25-05-2009, 17:11
To be honest, if you are playing last man standing, you shouldn't even decide the winner. This is because last man standing makes the armies really unbalanced. Imagine yourself playing against a wood elf army with just Glade riders, warhawks, great eagles and mounted mages and other mounted heroes. They will just run around anyone, shoot them to death and the mages wil dispel everything (or at least almost). The game will

A) Last forever until you have failed those 50+ 2+ armour saves.

B) End in a victory to the wood elves.

Warhammer just isn't made for last man standing -games.

However, I respect your opinion and am not going to post on the subject anymore. Everyone should be allowed to have fun the way they want.

Malorian
25-05-2009, 17:24
Thank you whomever it was that told me that we were deploying wrong!!!! <33333

You're welcome :D

Although now we still have to get you to win... and play for 6 turns rather than last man standing...

Troah
25-05-2009, 17:52
You're welcome :D

Although now we still have to get you to win... and play for 6 turns rather than last man standing...

Yeah that wont happen. I enjoy last man standing way to much.

ArghaBlargh
25-05-2009, 18:01
You don't get points for capturing table quarters or standards either?

Lijacote
25-05-2009, 18:04
If you're playing last man standing then don't worry about losing. It's going to be ridiculously unbalanced.

LonelyPath
25-05-2009, 18:05
Actually they roll on one dice, so they can't miscast. Also, "kill their general" isn't a terribly viable strategy when a 450 point vampire will kill just about anything you throw at it. Because what happens if you fail to kill him? All of a sudden you have nothing to stop him from casting, you're losing men, and he's gaining men. The fact that you will lose a "last man standing" game is thus inevitable.

To reinforce this matter, my Vampire Lord a few weeks ago went through 20 chosen chaos warriors and the chaos lord, finished the battle on full wounds (I love Blood Drinker and Red Fury) looking rather hungerilly at a large block of warriors. Meanwhile my army barely shrank thanks to my 2 supporting characters I prefer to use as spellcasters. I don't normally usee such powerful combos, but we decided to tool up our lords as much as possible.

I really do not recommend last man standing games at all.

Troah, I'ld love to face you on the battlefield in a 6 turn game, my VC had a habit of getting cut to ribbons by Bret knights, even though I tend to summon more troops later I tend to be on the back foot unless I get lucky ;)

Malorian
25-05-2009, 18:35
Yeah that wont happen. I enjoy last man standing way to much.

I've gone from a man on a mission to help you win to a person just plain annoyed with your group...

Some weekend, you know just for fun, your group should try following ALL the rules...

Troah
25-05-2009, 18:50
Maybe, but the most inportant rule in Warhammer is to have fun. Me and my group enjoy playing to the death. But we've all agreed to not play douchy and just keep running away so that it's impossible to catch them.

Lord Dan
25-05-2009, 19:06
Do what you want. I've played both ways, and I can tell you you're missing out on a whole different dimension of the game.

W0lf
25-05-2009, 19:58
Definatly.

When i met my group they all played to the death. After like 5 games i was like wtf no and showed them the light.

Now we laugh at the thought of 'to the death'.

Malorian
25-05-2009, 20:02
In our group 'last man standing' died back when we played 40k, and never even showed it's ugly head in fantasy.

The first rule may be to have fun but that doesn't mean you should ignore the rest of the rules to do it.

danny-d-b
25-05-2009, 20:57
dont play last man standing, the way brets win is running down standards (why the banner with the double victory points is very nice!

Also I had a simmler record to you, I was playing an empire army and played the way I though what a normal empire town army would have, e.g. 1 or 2 cannons a few knights AND NO STANKS and defonantly not a gun line

for almost a year I was told I was the worst player in the club (other than kids) and was even beaten by some kids on some occation, I lost to ogers 6 time and had a list written out for me (a gun line) and was told to play it with out tordiment list wrighter, the club owner and two of the best players standing over me questioning every desion I made against orks, I still only mannage minor victory, and I found it the most boring thing in the world (you move towards me, I roll 200 dice followed by 66 dice and take 33 modlels of the table had 200 handgunners deployed in a long line on a table wide hill with no other terrain)

Then after this I was looking through the WOC chaos book of my mates and came accros festus, and everything fell in to place, I could use infatry and they where not going to be run down with out a fight unlike my empire, had great heavy cavalry and some great magic, I'm now currently winning rougly 2/3rd of my games with a 'fluffly' list (mono nurgle lead by festus, with swordmen marrauders and Greatsword warriors (with halbeds) and knights) and enjoying it so much more rather than the day where I was told weekly 'to go gun line'

moose
25-05-2009, 22:28
I think danny-d-b should write the Warhammer Fantasy Disney Fairytale!


:) Moose.

The Emperor
25-05-2009, 22:48
Eh, me and my Warhammer pals really don't like the concept of victory points or playing only 6 turns. That's like eating only half of the piece of cake you get on your birthday.

Eh, to me "Last Man Standing" is more like gorging yourself on an entire cake all by yourself, and then starting in on another cake, til you possibly can't fit any more, and ending the night puking your guts out all over the floor because your stomach can't possibly hold in all the crap you've eaten.


I've gone from a man on a mission to help you win to a person just plain annoyed with your group...

LOL! Some people, as they say, just don't want to be helped. Oh well. As long as they are having fun. Still, you should try playing a normal game a few times, Troah. How can you really know you won't have fun until you try it a couple times? Nevermind that in the time you put in to play a Last Man Standing game, you might be able to play two regular games.

Troah
25-05-2009, 23:02
Think of it this way though. If you were in a real war, would you stop only 6 minutes into the battle or would you keep going?

Harwammer
25-05-2009, 23:21
Real war isn't last man standing. I'd like to point out there are still Germans in the world.

At least give 6 turns a go once in a while (+and don't forget to base your plans around capturing VPs, not killing everything!). You may enjoy last man standing, but a change is as good as a rest (and trust me, you'll accumulate way more wins if you play VPs)!

Regarding The Most Important Rule; me and my group don't even play warhammer anymore, we just roll for 'first turn', head to the strip bar and get rounds in accordingly. Now thats fun!

The Emperor
25-05-2009, 23:47
Real war isn't last man standing. I'd like to point out there are still Germans in the world.

Exactly. In the real world, battles aren't fought until there're three guys left, total. Just look at the Battle of Gettysburg, which was the bloodiest battle of the Civil War. Even there, the casualties amounted to approximately 25% of the total forces, not 99.9999%! And those six turns are more akin to six hours of fighting, not six minutes, with the battle ending at the onset of sunset. Not many medieval armies kept duking it out once the sun went down.

Lord Dan
26-05-2009, 04:56
Think of it this way though. If you were in a real war, would you stop only 6 minutes into the battle or would you keep going?
Would "regiments" consist of 20 spearmen? Would "cavalry formations" have 8 knights? No, Warhammer is meant to be a representation of a larger scale battle. The 6 term limit is intended both for balance, and to say: "hey, look, at this point your guys are tired and the battle is basically over"

It also adds a whole different tactical element to the game. I played a team tournament once, and by turn 5 I was dragging my feet maneuvering units around the board which prompted him to say: "You realize you have one movement phase left after this, right?" Playing with 6 turns will make you a better player, as it forces you to plan what you want to achieve on a turn by turn basis. It allows you to assess how good a unit was point-for-point (did it make up its point cost in 6 turns?), can enable you to pull out a win or lose based on last-turn rally and break tests, and forces you to maximize your turn "productivity".

Master Stark
26-05-2009, 05:10
Eh, me and my Warhammer pals really don't like the concept of victory points or playing only 6 turns.

Just try it. Please?


Think of it this way though. If you were in a real war, would you stop only 6 minutes into the battle or would you keep going?

Six turns can be however long you like to imagine them. I like to go with an hour or sp per turn.

And the end of the 6th turn is simply the point where the battle is over. Maybe one side was fighting a desperate rearguard, and now overwhelming reinforcements have arrived and the battle is over. Maybe it's simply getting dark, and one side calls a retreat and the other side lets them go, to continue in the morning. Who knows? Real battles were almost never fought 'to the death'.

Troah
26-05-2009, 05:11
Yeah still not going to play for only 6 turns and for VP.
I just don't feel like it would be as fun.

Lord Dan
26-05-2009, 05:32
They're your losses.

danny-d-b
26-05-2009, 06:35
I think danny-d-b should write the Warhammer Fantasy Disney Fairytale!


:) Moose.

another line added to my sig colection!

AngryAngel
26-05-2009, 06:43
Problem is, you don't know for sure it would be less fun until you try playing for just the 6 turns. I can't even imagine playing last mean standing, at some point one army or the other would order a retreat or at the least a tactical withdrawl. Not every battle is an epit last man standing affair, sure some may be, but not all of them.

Grimstonefire
26-05-2009, 10:44
I like playing all the scenarios, including the set ups from 6th/ 5th like breakthrough etc. I would find it boring playing the same scenarios over and over.

Eta
26-05-2009, 10:48
At least try playing only six turns. You'd be surprised how many games you can at least draw by having captured more standards / table quarters than your opponent. Besides, in my gaming group we quite often have one side completely annihilated after six turns.

Greetings
Eta

Zilverug
26-05-2009, 12:14
Just to be certain, check whether you have proper six-sided dice with numbers 1 to 6 on them instead of those six-sided dice with numbers 1-3 appearing twice...

Jedi152
26-05-2009, 12:21
No one can be as bad as me. I just cannot get my head around tactics in any way, shape or form. I'm totally useless at chess too.

Any rudimentary tactics my feeble brain can form are so obvious to the other player that they're useless.

Keller
26-05-2009, 14:10
remember to play only 6 turns too. not a last man standing game.


Eh, now that's no fun. We play last man standing, always. Even I enjoy that.

Our group tends to go towards last man standing more often than not, but it depends on the game size, really. If we play 1k, 6 turns sees the destruction of most things and we might just finish it out. With larger games, we usually look at where we are on 6 turns, decide if we want to play more, if we have time for a new game, or just keep going. Generally, I would say few games last more than 7 or 8 turns anyway.

Really, most of our last-man-standing games come up because we are too lazy to calc VP's. But none of us really care about the grand victory; we revel in combat wins, where 1 unit valiantly smites two enemies that had them outmatched... or something. :)


While a last man standing game is fun now and then, it means you basically auto-lose against some armies. VC, for instance, would win basically every game if it wasn't for the turn cap.
If its friendly games, I don't think its much of an issue. If you are just spamming Invocation well into the 8th or 10th turn, I don't really call that a friendly game anymore, and will not want to play such games.

I played a 1K game with my VC this weekend where my two mages dominated the magic phase against my HE opponent. I chose simply to raise into a unit of zombies and replace a few skeletons to keep the game interesting. If I spammed, the game would have been over by turn 3 with no chance of getting through my numbers, making it very dull and not much fun for either of us.
I ended up losing that game, but only because I was so determined to have my WS1, T2, S2 zombies mob his 7x3+character swordmasters. It was close, but I ended up giving away too much CR against models w/ 2 attacks hitting on 3's and 2's. At the end of the game there were 0 VC models, 2 SM's and a HE Captain. It was a very funny game.

Troah
27-05-2009, 01:42
Yay someone kinda like me! =D

Lord Dan
27-05-2009, 01:50
With the difference being that he is willing to try playing 6 turn games, and not just stubbornly stick to what he's always done despite a whole forum's-worth of advice. :)

Just try it. If you don't like it, you can call me an idiot. Make a whole thread for it. I'll post a public apology and everything.

lparigi34
27-05-2009, 02:01
Funny thread, indeed I can hardly believe you all can be that bad. Reading this is akin to listen an AA meeting :p.

I have a friend who also sucks big time. Once, we played an 8 men tourney on the day of his birthday, the motto: let him win, no matter what, but not being evident at all... Did not work, I think he came out 5th or 6th... :rolleyes:

Troah
27-05-2009, 02:13
With the difference being that he is willing to try playing 6 turn games, and not just stubbornly stick to what he's always done despite a whole forum's-worth of advice. :)

Just try it. If you don't like it, you can call me an idiot. Make a whole thread for it. I'll post a public apology and everything.

Very well. Tomorrow we shall play one of these "6 turn VP" games.

AngryAngel
27-05-2009, 03:06
LoL, so all it took to make ya try a 6 turn game was to be able to call Lord Dan an idiot ?

You should feel honored Lord Dan, I wonder if he'll make that thread as soon as the battles over, or let it wait a couple days heh.

Edit: Not that I think you are an idiot my friend, in fact I kinda like ya. However, with such an offer I don't know many who would turn it down on the internet.

Lord Dan
27-05-2009, 04:39
Very well. Tomorrow we shall play one of these "6 turn VP" games.
Thank you. Let us know how it goes.


Edit: Not that I think you are an idiot my friend, in fact I kinda like ya. However, with such an offer I don't know many who would turn it down on the internet.
I fully understand. If I were in his position I would make a thread calling me an idiot even if I had a grand time playing a 6-turn game, and decided never to turn back to last man standing.

AngryAngel
27-05-2009, 16:23
Yeap, its just one of those situations that may never happen again. Though it is good he'll try the 6 turn game at least.

Krom The Eternal
27-05-2009, 17:58
this thread won the award for most entertaining hahaha ive been like reading along and looking in on it over the last 3 days and wow lol all i could do was laugh hopefully he has a good game and sees how must better 6 turn games are then to the death games couldyou imagine if big tournaments were to the death game? lmao they would take a month not just a weekend jeez lol

Troah
27-05-2009, 20:54
Alllllll right. I have played a 6 turn VP game, Lizardmen VS High Elves. Going by VP I lost pretty bad, it was a solid victory for him. We chose to keep going after the 6 turns were over, and going by the 'last man standing' tradition I enjoy so much, I barly lost. He had 1 1/2 units left standing and no lord.

I really did not like playing for only 6 turns nor for VP. I tried to have fun with it, I tried to be open minded, but the standard game play does not hold any appeal to me as it does all of you.

With that being said, Lord Dan, I believe you owe an apology.

Malorian
27-05-2009, 21:09
Could I possibly be the worst Warhammer player ever?

Well then I guess at this point we can just answer this as 'Yes!' and close the thread...


If you really want help past this point I would suggest you make a new thread that is your 6 turn battle report including lists.

I would also ask that if in any point in the future you ask for help that you make a clear note what size of board you will be playing on, and if you are going to playing 6 turns or to the last man.

ICLRK625
27-05-2009, 22:19
You're really not giving us much to work with if you want to win every once in a while. You fixed your board problem, sure, but you're still not following the rules to make the game (in the competitive sense, you know, where winning and losing would be fair odds) fair. You're deliberately shooting yourself in the foot in the name of fun (which is fine, when it's only for fun), and then telling us you'd like to win every once in a while.

The rules exist for a reason, not following them is fine, but there's no guarantee that it's going to be fair at the end of the day. Deploying 6" was probably your biggest problem, but you're not going to win many battles playing until everything is dead. If you play by Victory Points, you have miniature objectives, things you can do to increase your chances of winning, even if you know you won't be able to kill more of your enemies army then they will of yours (which is how balance works, some armies are simply better at killing things then others).

If you don't want to play by the rules, that's fine, but don't tell us you're the worst player ever, and that you want to win when you have no intent to play the game how it's most fair. You won't be winning much when you play the game in a way that benefits your opponent, and you won't be improving much without a sensible way to win.

Harwammer
27-05-2009, 22:37
Well its good that you tried turn limits. Sorry they were of no benefit to you. On the bright side at least with the new deployment rules you guys are using your games are much closer now!

Lord Dan
28-05-2009, 04:43
With that being said, Lord Dan, I believe you owe an apology.

I'm very sorry you didn't enjoy your game.

EvilEuropean
30-05-2009, 09:41
Awesome....awesome..
Well, i play 40k & fantasy.....Orks & O&G's....
For 40k i do fairly well...more or less 80% win ration. Not sure how ill fare with the last couple of codex's that came out.....i think u know what i mean.
As for fantasy...lol....call me a bad player, but my god....i have NEVER EVER won a game. (ive had about 30 this year...three times that last year, its sickening actually)
The best ive had is 2 draws...the rest i always get my ass handed to me. Ive tried everything, and i still Love my O&G's.....but they just cant be competitive....in my hands at least.

Jabroni the Wise
30-05-2009, 12:19
Yes. You are the worst Warhammer player ever. I hope you know it and I hope you feel bad for it. I will not help you, because you are the worst Warhammer player ever.

Learning the rules and playing the game by the rules will not help. You are the worst Warhammer player ever. Figuring out how to play your army correctly and using every opportunity to your advantage will not help. You are the worst Warhammer player ever.

It doesn't matter what you do, because you are the worst Warhammer player ever. There is no hope for you, because you are the worst Warhammer player ever. You should probably never play again, because you are the worst Warhammer player ever.

Ekamdu
30-05-2009, 19:01
ive started playing warhammer about 2 months ago and ive won about half the games ive played.. though i play a lot of 2v2

but still, as i dont even own an army (only got about 300pts WoC) i am worse xD

fubukii
30-05-2009, 19:20
Awesome....awesome..
Well, i play 40k & fantasy.....Orks & O&G's....
For 40k i do fairly well...more or less 80% win ration. Not sure how ill fare with the last couple of codex's that came out.....i think u know what i mean.
As for fantasy...lol....call me a bad player, but my god....i have NEVER EVER won a game. (ive had about 30 this year...three times that last year, its sickening actually)
The best ive had is 2 draws...the rest i always get my ass handed to me. Ive tried everything, and i still Love my O&G's.....but they just cant be competitive....in my hands at least.

40k orks are easily still the best army only other army in there league is guard.


as for warhammer its alot tougher then 40k to play. movement plays a key role and its hard to take moves back so its not forgiving. you have to constantly think of oyur charge arcs and where you want to go, while watching out for enemy chargers/arcs/redirectors will my enemy flee? how will that effect me? I could go on.

40k is just deploy, move, shoot, assault. roll dice. Target selection is on of your harder decesions in 40k.

i feel troah you would do fine if you played by the rules, and just got used to it.

Draconian77
30-05-2009, 19:31
Hang on a second, you tried one 6 turn VP game?

Isn't it a little naive to expect massive improvements/differences in a single game?

Lord Dan
30-05-2009, 20:11
I don't think he expected anything from that game. He only played it to humor me.

Draconian77
30-05-2009, 20:35
There are so many things wrong with that if that is indeed the case...

Krom The Eternal
31-05-2009, 02:23
or maybe he lied and never played the game.....dun dun duuuuuuunnnnn hahaha

orkz222
31-05-2009, 10:53
lol "last man standing" and different board size... strange for fantasy though... 6 turns VP more fun IMO

if for 40k apoc it can be fun with the titans/heavies needing more space, special scenarios req

Glabro
31-05-2009, 13:08
This is a surprisingly common problem, and I've seen it happen at my club for years with some people.
I agree that the basic problem is probably about learning. If you don't approach the game at least a bit analytically and spend time thinking about the game outside the game itself, then you might not be learning. It's why teachers hand out homework, because many / most people won't learn during the class itself (I did and never did any homework unless it was somehow "compulsory").

Compounding this problem is the fact that although these people are in it for the fun, often they get fixated about winning (due to losing so much) and really want to win (even though they aren't really doing much to make it happen) "fair and square", so handicaps aren't used.

I think handicaps are a great idea to give both you and your opponent a challenge, and it makes the games feel a bit more real as armies were never identically matched in history. Once you can win with the handicap often enough, you can lower it and finally remove it.

Personally I love the feeling of an outnumbered force fighting against a larger force (and many Warhammer stories are rife with such tales, although it's usually the Empire, Dwarves or High Elves who are in that situation).

Bingo the Fun Monkey
31-05-2009, 16:04
I'd say the worst WHFB player ever is the one that can't have fun. Chin up bucko, you'll get your win someday.

Keller
02-06-2009, 03:44
I'd say the worst WHFB player ever is the one that can't have fun. Chin up bucko, you'll get your win someday.

QFT. WHFB is a game. One meant to allow players to have fun, at that. If you don't have fun, its not worth playing. If you do, it doesn't matter what happens.

Dragune
02-06-2009, 05:17
I agree with everyone else about having fun. Just make sure you do that and winning will come in time. For winning, I say just ask people about strategies or how to improve your army, it also doesn't hurt being lucky with the dice either:p

Alric
02-06-2009, 06:00
Err.. this is turning into the longest platitudes list ever

Peregijn
02-06-2009, 11:05
i never win but i always have fun.
ofcourse i play against a all goblin list and i always try crazy stuff with my chaos army...

one time he had so many fanaticks that we dicided that he would count how many points he killed from himself and how many he killed from me with them...
we never laughed harder in a game.

Magic Karl
02-06-2009, 14:12
A great way to have fun with such a track record is not to lose... but maybe to lose spectacularly! Just a suggestion but I think everyone would have fun fighting a suicide list, such as an all slaves skaven army :p

Another way to lose hilariously is to exploit a luck based O&G army; pack it full of unreliable warmachines and Fanatics XD That could go either way really, but I know the most fun I've had playing games is when I lose because a cannon blew up at a key moment.

Ixquic
02-06-2009, 14:30
The true fun of Warhammer is ....

in your heart!

theunwantedbeing
02-06-2009, 14:42
Alllllll right. I have played a 6 turn VP game, Lizardmen VS High Elves. Going by VP I lost pretty bad, it was a solid victory for him. We chose to keep going after the 6 turns were over, and going by the 'last man standing' tradition I enjoy so much, I barly lost. He had 1 1/2 units left standing and no lord.

I really did not like playing for only 6 turns nor for VP. I tried to have fun with it, I tried to be open minded, but the standard game play does not hold any appeal to me as it does all of you.

So you played one game, promptly lost, so you dont like it.
Bit childish dont you think?

Play some more games, get the hang of this new 6 turn malarkey where you add up victory points and capture standards and table quarters. Then once you actually understand how to play the game properly maybe you can better comment on whether or not you actually enjoy the game.

What your doing at the moment appears to be akin to playing checkers with chess pieces.

You'de do well to explain why you found the turn game to be so much less enjoyable than a fight to the death.

Also, historically battles were fought during the day.
Normally starting some time after sunrise as everyone ate and deployed and then they fought untill the light started to fade so they had time to find and bury their dead, or just find their way back to camp if they had got sufficiently lost in the battle.

Chaplain Mortez
02-06-2009, 14:52
I'm better at 40k (win about 60~75% of my games, if not draw) than I am at Fantasy (more like 5~10%), but I doubt you're the worst (which are cheaters, in my opinion).

You'll get better! Not to mention, Fantasy has a pretty steep learning curve to it.

martinmshine
02-06-2009, 16:21
im quite crap too.
Go down to your local store and play one of the staff members
I did this and it helped my tactics immensely

Troah
02-06-2009, 18:57
So you played one game, promptly lost, so you dont like it.
Bit childish dont you think?

Play some more games, get the hang of this new 6 turn malarkey where you add up victory points and capture standards and table quarters. Then once you actually understand how to play the game properly maybe you can better comment on whether or not you actually enjoy the game.

What your doing at the moment appears to be akin to playing checkers with chess pieces.

You'de do well to explain why you found the turn game to be so much less enjoyable than a fight to the death.

We've done a few 6 turn VP battles, it just feels like we miss out on a lot of fun. Like the battle is only 1/4 played and then you just quit. It feels like baking a cake, eating one small peice, then throwing the rest of the cake away.


im quite crap too.
Go down to your local store and play one of the staff members
I did this and it helped my tactics immensely

Can't, the closest one is about two hours away and they only do tournaments once a month, no other battles. So that's kinda out the window.

fubukii
02-06-2009, 20:35
maybe you guys hold back to muchi n your 6 turn battles normally i get the action going turn 2-3 with all of my armies, and alot of mayhem happens

Lord Dan
03-06-2009, 02:35
We've done a few 6 turn VP battles, it just feels like we miss out on a lot of fun. Like the battle is only 1/4 played and then you just quit.

You play 24 turn games? :eek:

Troah
03-06-2009, 02:42
You play 24 turn games? :eek:

No, we play until either the last man is standing or someone surrenders.

Dragune
03-06-2009, 03:44
Well that could be an issue, I personally think a turn limit, victory points, and objectives are the way to go.

Lord Dan
03-06-2009, 04:14
No, we play until either the last man is standing or someone surrenders.

Yeah, I know, it was supposed to...yeah, nevermind.

Draconian77
03-06-2009, 04:16
This thread still alive?

For what it's worth I don't think the game of WHFB is balanced in a "kill them all" type battle, and considering that it's not really balanced in a 6 turn VP type game...well, you get my point.