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big squig
20-05-2009, 01:53
The last NG tactics thread was closed cause it was the old orc book, but now we have a new one and it's high time for a new tactics article about my favorite little sneaks.

Problem is, I'm no great fantasy player and am a bit new, so I'm looking to you, the green veterans out there, to lend me your advice.

What's the best way to play a night goblin army?

Cats Laughing
20-05-2009, 02:48
Drunk or High

Or otherwise in some sort of good friendly mood, where you won't care too much about what happens to your army.

Too much randomness to apply proper tactics towards consistently winning.

Still there are tricks you can try.

Squig hoppers and Giant Squigs move and count as charging if you move into an enemy unit, so you don't need to declare a charge and subsequently don't need LoS to your 'target' so you can screen your Giant Squig hopping Boss inside a unit of Squig Hoppers, or behind another friendly unit and not worry about lacking LOS for a charge.

Your random movement distance will probably still smurf over your plans, but it is a sneaky trick that can work.

Screening with the Squig hopper unit has the added bonus of the Squig Hoppers being ItP and therefore not panicking through your Boss. If you're lucky you can also pull off a combined charge of sorts. Though your random move will almost always stop this from happening...

Continuing on Squigs, as the random movement means that you don't need LoS to effectively 'charge' so you can also charge through LoS blocking terrain. Useful to avoid being shot and useful for catching annoying skirmisher types. Skirmishers in forests (that didn't have LoS when you started move) will likely have a -3 to hit you if they can Stand and Shoot (-1 stand and shoot, -1 skirmisher/single model, and -1 for being in cover, since you'll likely be 2" away, in the forest, when they finally do have LoS). Not actually sure they would get Stand and Shot in the first place.

Mercules
20-05-2009, 13:35
Terrain helps Squigs out hugely, especially things like hills/woods that block LoS but not movement for them.

I am playing an all Night Goblin army, the Fumin Frenzy tribe, in a friendly campaign about a Greenskin Waaaagh! on an Imperial town. I am doing poorly.

I can't take Orcs in any fashion and while I can take other goblins when rolling for Animosity they rolls twice and take the lowest. So my lists tend to be rather slow moving and need a lot of Static CR to win.

Core:
Night Goblins
Snotlings

Special:
Spear Chukkas
Squig Hoppers
Squig Herd
Rock Lobbers

Rare:
Trolls
Giant
Snotling Pump Wagons
Doom Diver

The low leadership and very limited bubble of Leadership for the General really hurts. The cool magical standards that would help can't be taken by Night Goblin Mobs only a BSB.

The only "fast" models they can take have either Random Movement, Random Attacks, or are Stupid and need to stay near the General. This really limits what you can do and puts you on the defensive most of the time.

Fanatics are a scary thing, but they are so random it is sometimes hard to tell if they scare your opponent or you more. :) If you think about it there is about a 15-20% chance that the Fanatic you released will come back and smack the unit that released it.

That being said, they are a great scare tactic. I've noticed my opponent usually will not charge in without testing the waters with some other unit. This often gives me a chance to do some more shooting or magic before they engage my blocks. Staggering units so they can either come WAY to close to some or not release some of the Fanatics works well. I also like not putting them in every unit or changing the number in various units. They never know what to expect and so check each time.

Goblin magic is good, but expensive. The mushrooms help. You can cast a 9+ spell with 2 dice hoping for a 9+. If you get it, great! If not but you are close, risk the Magic Mushroom. With this I've been able to pull off more spells than I should be otherwise sometimes getting 3 dispel dice while using only 2 of mine.

Foot of Gork is amazing. My Shaman can hide and stomp things all day long. Gork Wants Ya! is scary for things like Ogres where they have low In and numerous wounds. Gaze of Gork and Brain Bursta are solid MMs. Gork'll Fix It is situational, but with Nets it can get really fun in combat and allows Goblins to get through high AS models since they have 2 chances of rolling a 1.

Night Goblins by themselves are incredibly hard to play. They make a fantastic addition to an Orc and Goblin army.

Malorian
20-05-2009, 16:34
Depends on how we want to define a night goblin army and how restrictive you want to make the list...

To me the best NG list would have several large (30ish) NG archer units with 3 fanatics backed up by eight of spearchuckas, two doom divers, and a bunch of magic.

This way it doesn't matter if they draw out the fanatics as you aren't moving up anyway.

As far as the general goes you pretty much need Skarsnik to stay with the theme and have a decent LD (plus he helps out the magic).

Cats Laughing
20-05-2009, 20:45
True enough Malorian, depends on how you define a Night Gobbo army:

Imho, a strict NG army is limited to:

NG Heros/Lords
NG core
Snotlings
Squig Herds
Squig Hoppers
Giants
Trolls
Pump Wagons

And that because Giants Trolls and Snots are not proper Orcs/Goblins so available in any orc/gobbo-type restricted armies. Though I wonder a little about River Trolls and Giants in NG caves...

Anyway, that's a pretty limited army (no ranged attacks beyond short bows and magic, fairly wimpy melee, and no true cavalry), so winning will be difficult without even considering Animosity...

Deon
20-05-2009, 21:23
lots of fanatics and squighoppers nuff said :D

selone
20-05-2009, 22:28
Isn't a night goblin army uncecessarily restirctive ie taking no non night goblin units or no orc or goblin untis. Whilst I'd never do it I can understand the appeal of an all goblin (by that I mean any unit that isn't an orc) but no orcs or goblins, jeeze.

Nuada
20-05-2009, 23:13
I've tried a NG army with rock lobbers, doom divers and spear chukkas maxed out in spec and rare (don't know if that still counts)

It's already been mentioned; don't move up much, shoot them with lots of war machines, use lots of magic.

Skarsnik is well worth taking. If your opponent is good he'll direct alot of firepower at Skarsniks unit, make his unit big to absorb the damage. Rowdy Grotts Raggedy Red Banner was great, it saved Skarnisks unit twice. I put this BSB close to Skarsnik. If Skarsnik's unit is dying all around him, move him to another big unit.

If there's a pop-up unit (TK scorpion) or a unit that appears at the back of the table (dwarf miners) that's aiming for your war machines. Just leave one NG with fanatics near by. Fanatics are distributed as for shooting, so they'll only hit your squishy crew on a 5 or 6. Your war machine will only be wounded on a 6. My weedy goblin crew have survived alot of fanatics hurling towards them.

big squig
21-05-2009, 02:39
How would people rate the rare choices? Which are best and which should be avoided.

Also, what's the best NG unit size/options and why?

Nuada
21-05-2009, 08:21
How would people rate the rare choices? Which are best and which should be avoided.

Also, what's the best NG unit size/options and why?

Personally i'd go for doom divers as a rare choice with a NG army. You're better off having a lethal shooting phase.

Giants and pump wagons need to move up and engage the enemy, they won't be supported. On his own the giant will be an expensive pin cushion. Some people go for single trolls, but not my cup of tea, i've used them once in 2 years.

When i'm combining orcs and NG units (99% of my games) i prefer the NG unit size to be 20. When using all NGs i found a unit size of 30 worked better (6 wide), if you can help it you don't want your NG units fleeing and killing the fanatics before they're released.

But......just my opinion ;)

rtunian
21-05-2009, 14:10
so, i think it's clear what the best strategy for running a night goblin army:
add units that don't belong :p

but seriously, a true night goblin army is going to have no war machines, and very few different units. squig hoppers and herders are your only specials. pump wagons, trolls, and giants are your only rares.

to win with a true night goblin army (not a night goblin army that went rummaging at the common goblin junk yard, picked up a few chuckas, and then was followed home by some wolf riders), you need three things:
-luck
-more luck
-hundreds of night goblins

honestly? you probably won't win with a true ng army, unless you are playing an equally soft enemy list. you have to go into battle with this in mind, because you are seriously handicapping yourself by refusing to take the best units that you can take. that said...


basic ng uses & thoughts:
-you can emulate the standard hammer and anvil strategy by using differently equipped blocks of night goblins: 35s with hw&s and nets supported by 25s with spears.

-fanatics add some punch, but don't take too many (i'd say, generally, no more than 3 per 1k).

-you should take a few units of bowmen, since you don't have any other shooting. these obviously aren't going to put out a ton of damage, but they are cheap, they are capable of getting a few kills before combat, and if they take some of your enemy's attention, they are doing fine.

-use command groups sparingly. only ng blocks with nets that will be housing characters should have champions, all units should have musicians, and all units but bowmen should have standards


herds & hoppers:
-herds are fragile hammer slash suicide bomber units. they don't break or panic, they explode and do d6 s5 hits to all units w/in 2d6". not a bad idea to screen this unit with snotlings so it can cross no-man's land and get into combat.

-hoppers can fill the fast cav role of march blocking, but because they are itp, they can't flee as a charge reaction, so if you do send that unit off for that purpose, you are sending in an unsupported combat unit which will probably be wiped up in short order. that can still serve a purpose though, since its cheap and can delay the enemy. forests are a good place for hoppers to hide, and great places for them to strike from, thanks to the boiiing rule. a good use of this unit is to get flank charges, but with its randomized movement, you can expect to fall short a good deal of the time


snots:
-snotling blocks are decent screens for units such as squig herds, and good for capturing table quarters

-snotling pump wagons are decent chariots, but suffer from even more randomness than hoppers, since both their move distance and imact hits are 2d6. still they are cheap, itp, and 2 fills 1 rare requirement.


trolls & giants:
-trolls aren't a great choice for ng army as many people have lamented, because the poor leadership of the ng heroes translates into many, many failed stupidity tests. if you are taking skarsnik this is suddenly not such a huge deal, although you will still be stupid frequently. river trolls are the better upgrade, but either way, unless you are taking a unit of 4, trolls are a support unit. don't send them off solo to do battle.

-giants add a bit of punch, but are very juicy targets for shooting and magic. not much else to say there!


characters:
-on foot, a big boss with a great axe and light armor is a super cheap, yet powerful fighter. consider this instead of the obligatory tool-up with magic weapons.

-bsb is overrated for ng. it's great for adding cr, don't get me wrong, but a break test reroll at ld.6 really isn't going to improve your chances by a significant amount (although reroll does make it more likely to pass any test). the poison banner is 25 points overpriced, the raggedy banner is... well, like i said, a reroll at ld.6 isn't anything to write home about, especially for 50 points. if you had skarsnik it would be much more worth it, but otherwise...

-the great cave squig is the only mount that ng characters can take, and it's well... it's good and bad. it's good because it looks sweet and has alot of flavor. it's bad because you can't control its move distance and it can't join units. it does give your ng +1 to armor save, and it does have 3 s5 attacks of its own, but it's not as good as it should be. for one, it should be stronger than normal squigs. for two, it should cause fear. oh well~ this is a likely candidate for brimstone bauble & 1-hit wonda

-shamans are good characters, but not good leaders. since the little waaagh! is a slap in the face of casting values, a casting ng sham is best suited as a level 2, with either staff of badoom or a handful of magic mushrooms. there's also the magic defense sham, who is level 1 and takes staff of sneaky stealing. both are viable and useful.

Nuada
21-05-2009, 14:21
a true night goblin army is going to have no war machines, and very few different units. squig hoppers and herders are your only specials. pump wagons, trolls, and giants are your only rares.

If it's strictly night goblins, then giants and pump wagons shouldn't be allowed either :p (chariots underground? they'd fall to bits)

Your 4 unit options are;

Core= night goblins
Spec= herders or hoppers
Rare= trolls (no river trolls)

Not many out of the possible 21 units in the O&G book

rtunian
21-05-2009, 14:39
oh i disagree heartily!

giants don't live inside the mountains, of course, but they are attracted by beer, and so all a cunning night goblin warboss would have to do is secure many barrels of beer, and place them outside of the cave. when the giant wanders by, he gets nice and drunk, and the gobs convince him to go along with the waaagh! it's the same way that giants are lured to any other waaagh!

pump wagons could operate on the mining tracks that the dwarves used when they used to live in the mountain that the night gobs took over.

why would you assume that there are no rivers inside mountains? geologically, the water table ignores such terrain, and rivers are perfectly likely to be found inside cave networks. as such, river trolls are no stretch.

Nuada
21-05-2009, 14:54
well, all O&G armies are gathered that way. A big charismatic (ok probably psychopathic) general goes from village to village (or cave to cave) and gathers together as many troops as he can for his waaagh. Skarsnik could easily con any war machines or nearby wolf riders into his army (same way as conning a giant)

I'm sure i remember reading pump wagons are built by the snotlings to mimick a goblin chariot.

If you want a pure NG force you could convert the figures to a NG theme. For example, maybe the NGs have stolen a dwarf cannon....... just chop a NG in half so he's poking out the end of the cannon (bit like a human cannonball), then use the doom diver rules (also saves money buying a doom diver) Or even put NGs on spiders. Massive troll, and use the giant rules maybe. Probably look lame.... but how about NGs riding a lizard type creature (DE cold one), then use wolf riders stats/rules.

I remember a conversion somebody did with a giant spider and some NG herders. They put it on a 50x 100mm base, and used the wolf chariot rules

Ax'ataxa
21-05-2009, 14:58
this makes me want t start up an NG army really badly *_* i play for fun and it bugs the heck out of the other local gamers when i don't look like i just got totally crushed, so night gobos would be perfect .... especially since i intend to put about 3 fanatics in every unit just to mess with people :D

rtunian
21-05-2009, 15:18
well nuada i guess we just disagree in this case :p after all, who's to say that my arbitrary limitations are any more or less right than your arbitrary limitations? as part of this concession i'll stop saying "true" ng list when referring to my own interpretation hehe :D although i will say...


For example, maybe the NGs have stolen a dwarf cannon....... just chop a NG in half so he's poking out the end of the cannon (bit like a human cannonball), then use the doom diver rules

that's a freaking great idea! *rummages through bfsp leftovers*


you know, it would be nice to have actual themes in the rulebooks, with tangible bonuses and benefits to fielding themed armies. sigh~

Nuada
21-05-2009, 15:24
hey if you do that goblin-cannonball, it'd look great with a few NGs loaders with those big sticks pushing the NG inside the cannon

Cats Laughing
21-05-2009, 23:27
For example, maybe the NGs have stolen a dwarf cannon....... just chop a NG in half so he's poking out the end of the cannon (bit like a human cannonball), then use the doom diver rules (also saves money buying a doom diver)

I love this idea.

FWIW one of the local goblin only players has a Giant with the old Skarsnik's Squig replacing the giant's head, and painted up green like a proper greenskin.

big squig
22-05-2009, 05:35
If you want a pure NG force you could convert the figures to a NG theme. For example, maybe the NGs have stolen a dwarf cannon....... just chop a NG in half so he's poking out the end of the cannon (bit like a human cannonball), then use the doom diver rules (also saves money buying a doom diver)
Hahaha, you just described my doomdiver to a tee. I used a empire mortor, and have a fanatic with his ball in the barrel. I'll try to snap a pic of it.

I'm still trying to figure out how to best play my army. I have:
-Skarsnik and Gobbla
- a bunch of shamans and big bosses and a great cave squig
- about 180 night goblins
- A crap load of fanatic models
- 10 squig hoppers
- 4 squig herds
- 2 spear chukkas (most racist name ever!)
- 10 snotling bases
- 3 trolls
- a doom diver
- a giant
- a pumpwagon

big squig
22-05-2009, 08:39
Also, I haven't been using standards (just musicians). They're goblins, standard or no standard, they're going to run. Standards seem like a great way to give my opponent 100 free points...and multiply that by how many goblin units are on the board (a lot!) and those free points add up.

rtunian
22-05-2009, 13:26
well you don't put standards on every unit, but your main combat ones (the big blocks with hw&s and netters) should certainly have a standard... you want that extra 1 cr!

imo, you should expect goblins to flee, like you said, but at the same time, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to help them to stand and fight.

Mercules
22-05-2009, 14:01
I second that. Night Goblin blocks do not win by kills, they win by Static CR. Banners are +1 Static Combat Resolution.

Playing my Night Goblins I did not expect to get kills so I made them less likely to give up CR to my opponent so my Static CR would matter. I gave them nets and they keep their shields.

If you start adding Fanatics to your NG blocks you are sometimes doubling their cost and since they don't get points for killing Fanatics just it's parent unit it is wise to protect those units. Banners give you one more CR and sometimes that is enough to win or tie. If not, well you roll at one less negative and with Leadership 5-7 that is VERY important.

big squig
23-05-2009, 03:56
Well, I do give a banner to my big unit usually with skarsnik in it. Sometimes I use the badmoon on a stick to make him LD8 and stubborn.

But, I tried using banners and I still kept running. Goblins don't usually lose by 0ne or two, they lose by 4 or more. Almost every time I test I need snake eyes (good reason to use a high LD general!).

There were plenty of games that went from a win to a draw or from a draw to a loss simply because I brought banners and gave my opponent like 400-500 extra VP.

Urgat
23-05-2009, 06:27
If not, well you roll at one less negative and with Leadership 5-7 that is VERY important.
Really? You think rolling on a 4 instead of 3 makes much difference? For the VP that banner will award the opponent, compared to what he'll get for the meak naked unit, I'm doubtful it's worth it. The only gob units I field that get banners are the ones fully kitted out, with some sort of support (charriots, trolls, whatever) which I really want to win. The others get a musician, and that's it :p
The same logic applies to the BSB btw. Lots of people claim they're vital to gobs, but I disagree, I think they're a waste. Unless you use Skarsnik and are in his Ld bubble, you'll get a reroll for a 4 grand max. Math-hammerise that as much as you will, it's unlikely to change anything, and I prefer to rely on the cold certainty that the unit will fly, rather than cross fingers hoping that maybe it'll hold. I prefer one more shaman, really :)

Shiodome
23-05-2009, 13:15
banners pretty much double the VP's a goblin army gives away. taking them, is just silly... though i take banners in my mixed O&G list goblins, because they make the unit look good, which is a good enough reason for me. tactically though, they're retarded.

big squig
23-05-2009, 22:59
Can anyone tell me if pump wagons are worth it in a NG army? They don't seem to hit very hard, and are pretty slow...though cheap.

Herod
23-05-2009, 23:53
The same logic applies to the BSB btw. Lots of people claim they're vital to gobs, but I disagree, I think they're a waste. Unless you use Skarsnik and are in his Ld bubble, you'll get a reroll for a 4 grand max. Math-hammerise that as much as you will, it's unlikely to change anything, and I prefer to rely on the cold certainty that the unit will fly, rather than cross fingers hoping that maybe it'll hold. I prefer one more shaman, really :)

I'm looking at this dilemna right now. I am fielding Skarsnik with 3 goblin shamans in chariots. Despite this, and for various reasons, I haven't made much of a dent with magic. I am planning on testing a BSB (both combat and with the panic banner), but it is good to hear from someone who has already been down this path.

Right now I am fielding 3 big (35 strong) units of night goblins fully kitted out with FC and nets. They are doing surprisingly well, but banners are an absolute must. I need every point of CR I can get. My 21 unit of archers get's a hearty pat on the back and a musician. :)

I also use 2 pump wagons. For their cost they are decent. A lot of the time they are sacrificed as re-directors, but also server as area denial - and just today I had one see off a Herald of Tzeentch. :)
In the early game I basically control them by letting them "bump" my units. This leaves them in the general area where they will be needed.

H

rtunian
24-05-2009, 00:58
pump wagons are very unreliable, but they are also cheap and flavorful. they can do wonderful things, and they can make you say very bad things too :p

Urgat
24-05-2009, 07:10
I'm looking at this dilemna right now. I am fielding Skarsnik with 3 goblin shamans in chariots. Despite this, and for various reasons, I haven't made much of a dent with magic.

Sorry about that, you should disregard my comment about shamans, I use them (almost) exclusively for dispelling.

Mercules
25-05-2009, 18:01
Really? You think rolling on a 4 instead of 3 makes much difference?

Um... yes, because it DOUBLES my chances of succeeding. Throw in a BSB and I have almost a 1 in 3 chance of passing, 30.6% with Banner in the unit and BSB nearby compared to 8.4% chance with no Banner and no BSB.

Now, you are correct. For a 60 point goblin unit, don't bother. But if you have a NG unit 30 large, with Nets and 3x Fanatics you might as well fully kit it out and give it the best chance it has since you already have 200 points invested. If you go back and read my post that is what I was talking about.

Urgat
25-05-2009, 19:21
Now, you are correct. For a 60 point goblin unit, don't bother. But if you have a NG unit 30 large, with Nets and 3x Fanatics you might as well fully kit it out and give it the best chance it has since you already have 200 points invested. If you go back and read my post that is what I was talking about.
If you read my first post on the subject, you'll remember I agree with that ;)

For the BSB, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Imho it's a wasted character slot that could be much better used, and god knows they're precious for gobs.

plantagenet
28-05-2009, 12:54
I personally think without Skarsniks leadership an all Night Goblin force is not particularly viable....

Oh for the return of that leadership crown.

For me however this is one of the areas that make banning special characters from tournaments a little harsh. Skarsnik for Goblin only armies should be allowed. But I guess at the end of the day for a tournement you could just put a BlackOrc Warboss in as your commander.

Mercules
28-05-2009, 13:13
Or allow Warband rules Archtypes. Can you tell I am working on running a Warband Campaign?

Orcs & Goblins can take several Archtypes who's base ability allows them to autopass the first Panic check. From there they can be upgraded with different abilities such as Re-rolling a failed Break Test once per game or fight a round of combat as if they were Stubborn, and things like that.

rtunian
28-05-2009, 13:43
imo it's ridiculous that o&g cannot be trickster archtype. goblin & ng chars should be able to take trickster, but not barbarian

Mercules
28-05-2009, 14:14
I would definately allow Goblin characters to get the Trickster Archtype. In fact... making a note now for my Campaign that Orcs can not, but Goblins can.

big squig
01-06-2009, 22:24
How useful are squig herds? How big is too big?
I was thinking about in small games taking a unit of just one team. I mean, the wild squig rules is the same regardless of how many squigs are in the unit...seems like a really cheap, really destructive bomb.

rtunian
02-06-2009, 00:59
i've tried herds a few times with little success. anyone who knows what the wild squigs rule means in 7th will do what it takes to panic that unit early with shooting/magic, so unless you screen it (perhaps with snots) or hide behind terrain, that unit is in trouble. like most armorless hammer units, if they a) make it into combat and b) get to charge, they do alright. if they make it to combat and lose, you at least get the bomb

while 1 herd would still do as much wild squig damage as 4 herds, you should remember that you don't get the wild squig damage unless the unit has to flee. if the unit is completely destroyed, there's none of that. so, you'd want to take at least a few teams

i'd say anywhere between 2-5 teams for size, depending on what kind of shooting/magic you are up against

herds would be more viable if they were core, especially since they are so cheap. alas, they aren't :( imo, skarsnik's rules should cut 'sneaky schemes', which isn't friendly at all, and replace that with 'squig herds count as core choice'.