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PeeKay
20-05-2009, 09:34
I have seen a few all cavalry list for Dark Elves but they always lack an anvil unit (Static CR). After reading around I think I may have found the solution (maybe?).


Master
Cold One, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak - 114

Sorceress
Dark Steed, Level 2, Darkstar Cloak, Tome of Furion Ė 187


15 x Dark Riders
Full Command, Shields - 305

5 x Dark Riders
RxB, Musician Ė 117

6 x Harpies - 66


5 x Cold one Knights
Full Command, Banner of Slaughter - 210

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999pts



The large block of Dark Riders replaces the DE Warriors. Although not cheap they do have other advantages that could make up the cost.
1) Fast and mobile. Even with the shields they can move around like regular cavalry units. They would be too big a unit to be useful Fast Cavalry.
2) Survivable. Mounts and shields give them good armour save
3) Higher Attack. Mount and the rider attack
4) Decent Static CR.

Also, I believe that the Dark Riders have LD of 9(?) Does the second rank of spears defend if charged? I am not sure as I donít have my books with me.

The second unit of DR was added to be the second core unit. I donít usually have RxBís on DRís but that gives some range if needed.

CoKís to provide the Hammer. A straight forward Master to join the CoKís.

I am not sure about the Sorceress. I added her to provide magic but I am thinking that I should remove her and throw in some Rings of Hotek and get another unit, probably another CoK.

Harpies nicely fill the pointís gap.

ICEMANQ
20-05-2009, 09:51
Just ignore magic really, maybe put a null talisman on the master or something. At one thousand points you only really have to worry about things like the ring of fury/buboes spam etc. I think a sorceress for this army is unneeded - go with another unit of knights.

david404
20-05-2009, 11:49
fast cavalery cant have rank bonus so their static CR will be banner+US
I think it will be better to put insted of this unit
two units of 5 dark raiders with RXB and musician
and a unit of 7 or 8 shades

PeeKay
20-05-2009, 13:12
When you add the shields to Dark riders they loose the fast cavalry ability. Do normal cavalry do get rank bonus?

I'll remove the sorceress and update the list when I get few more suggestions.

david404
20-05-2009, 13:14
i didnt know this role (abut the shields)bot normal cavalery get rank bonos

PeeKay
20-05-2009, 13:23
The rule is in the Dark Elves Army book; it is something like "+1 pt Shield (Dark Riders are no longer Fast Cavalry)" but its good to hear that the rank bonus for normal cavalry.

Do you/anyone know if the second rank of spear riders can attack if charged? Like spearmen infantry.

PeeKay
20-05-2009, 20:23
Is this now a scarier list?

Master
Cold One, Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Null Talisman - 129


15 x Dark Riders
Full Command, Shields - 305

5 x Dark Riders
RxB, Musician – 117

5 x Harpies - 55


5 x Cold one Knights
Full Command, Banner of Slaughter - 210

5 x Cold one Knights
Full Command - 175

------
991 pts

SevenSins
20-05-2009, 22:25
second list looks much better. I'd change the null talisman for the ring of hotek, and split the 15 strong dark riders into 3x5. Ranked cavalry is only working for brettonia :)
(Personally I prefer fast cav so I'd drop the shields as well)

PeeKay
21-05-2009, 07:26
Shamefully, I am 1 point off getting the Ring to Hotek.

The principle to the this list is the ranked cavalry. Having a list of fast cavalry that can't enter combat would be very difficult to play. However, the ranked cavalry with its decent static CR could engage, stay in combat and survive until the CoK enters combat.

I agree the Brettonia can do ranked cavarly must better than DE's but I can't select them for my army :)

SevenSins
21-05-2009, 07:50
with fast cav flanking and redirecting becomes the main things, leaving the main killing for the cok's. a single casualty in your dr block costs you 1 cr...

give it a try though and i'd like to hear how it goes (although i doubt i'll ever try it myself)

bob_the_small
21-05-2009, 20:43
Drop the 15 man unit, get 2 minimum core of 5 DR with xbows and get more CoK and maybe a hydra

PeeKay
22-05-2009, 09:17
I get the impression that people want me to remove the 15 rider unit and turn it into unit of fast cav. The list is a different solution from the normal but that is the point. I didn't want to post an army list and then have it converted into the same list everyone has.

I was hoping for reasons/discussion why I should drop the ranked riders or if anyone thought it a good idea? (I'm guessing not but reasons would be good)

My general problem with all cav lists is that after the first charge they get taken apart by most armies. The ranked raiders provide at least couple turns of combat with static CR that most cav list will not provide.

Would my list be a competitive list?

Matt1982
22-05-2009, 10:18
I'm afraid I'm inclined to follow the trend and argue against a large block of DR's. My reasons are:

No, sadly cavalry with spears dont get to fight back with multiple ranks, they get the +1 str on charge instead.

Your anvil has a static res of +3, two ranks & standard, so as Sevensins pointed out, even one casualty will drop that to +2, which isnt much of an anvil.

They really dont have a decent save, in a game where it's increasingly rare for things to be attacking with only basic S3 any more. Crossbows, handguns etc will reduce the save and leave you with an expensive T3 regt that's going to attract shots and die in droves in static combat. After the initial round once the hatred and initial charging bonus are lost, they're low save, T3 & S3 troops who wont last.

The idea of an anvil in a low point cavalry list seems to be really contradictory to me. It's a point sink with no discernable positive outcome. If you want a holding unit, go for a hydra, with its toughness, wounds and regenerate they take a good deal more killing than a similar number of points of DR's.

PeeKay
22-05-2009, 10:58
Thanks Matt thats was the feedback I was looking for.

I was suggesting that that armour save was decent 3+ Save (L.Armour, mount and shield). The T3 save is a common issue with any DE and is not something I can change. The good thing is that the shooting will probably be aimed at other more dangerous units :)

However, I think my mistake was comparing the riders to a block of warriors, who I would normal have being an anvil. The Hydra in case would be a much better option in terms of points and functionality.


The idea of an anvil in a low point cavalry list seems to be really contradictory to me.

Do you think that this would be more workable at higher point battles?

dwarfhold13
22-05-2009, 13:25
unfortunately there just isn't that much static combat res in a cavalry list.. you are building the army for speed and the punch on a charge.. in higher point games if you brought that many dark riders in one unit, what matt pointed out doesn't change.. the only thing that changes is that your opponent will have more shooting...
your best bet would be to break the unit up and use it in conjunction with your heavy cav as flank chargers/extra bonuses to combat and to help position your opponent (if they have frenzy units or fanatics)

Matt1982
22-05-2009, 14:44
I was suggesting that that armour save was decent 3+ Save (L.Armour, mount and shield).

I could well be wrong on this one, my favoured army is Beasts and I dont often use centigors so not certain, but my understanding is that cavalry dont get the handweapon+shield bonus to their in-combat save, so it'd be maximum of 4+(no barding for the horses). Still not a bad save per se, but no match for Cold One Knight's.

It's a personal preference but I dont like the idea of paying more than 15 points for any figures that are going to be in rear ranks and thus not earning their keep actually hitting things :) I'm a horde player at heart.

As for large blocks of DR's at higher points games, given the number of Cold One Knight's, Hydra's and Black Guard usually running around, they might not be the shooting magnet they'd be at lower ones, but this would only be because of their reflected lower threat level.

I just dont see them being the right tool for the job you've got in mind but give it a try and see how they work out for you, Theoryhammer is fine but it's how you put it to use on the table that matters and it would certainly be an unexpected move to make.

PS final point though on a practical issue, given that each DR costs £6.85, 15 of them will come to the horrific sum of £102.75 ...nasty.

tricker53
23-05-2009, 05:24
surprised the master has no magic items. im a big fan of caledors bane. or, since most people have a problem with use of pendant of khaeleth, maybe try the magic sea dragon cloak (forgot the name). he makes a nasty bolt thrower hunter/static shooty unit hunter with that cloak, and his cumulative -1+ save at range (HA, SDC, enchanted shield if you want, cold one). crossbows and handguns will be S2 against him, and therefore both with ignore none of his armour, and bolt throwers will have a hard time wounding him unless theyre dwarf bolt throwers with MR skewering and R penetrating. . .

i second hotek on a CoK unit perhaps, or the master. theres only going to be 2 mages at the highest on the other end of the board, so you can follow them round fairly easily.

if you want an anvil unit, i think the CoK unit with the slaughter banner is your best choice. its got an average of +3CR which cant be lost through kills (until the standard dies). maybe you could turn the DR block into a simple 5-man with xbows and bulk that CoK unit upto 10 or possibly more. another way to add to the static CR is making your master a BSB, perhaps. and lastly, a bulky CoK unit, we cant forget, causes fear so if you outnumber and win. . . good luck to your opponent.

DoomBringer
23-05-2009, 05:46
I see that most everyone is suggesting to change the role of the large 'anvil' role DR unit to what they are best at, fast cav and such, but this list was an attempt to add an anvil unit to a primarily cav army.

I think it would be best to try suggesting ideas on improving that anvil, or thinking of some unit to go with it to make it work better, as from what I got from the OP is that he wanted to add that anvil element.

As many people have pointed out the DR anvil unit isn't nearly as effective as other types of similar anvils but that was pretty obvious from the start, as they were made to be light cav harassers, and such.

Though for a mainly cav list I think they do the job better than anything else the DE have access too.

I personally like the idea of that anvil unit, some things you might be able to do to it to make it seem more anvily is this.

Put a BSB master in the unit with a warbanner and RoH or w/e you want. This will add some serious SCR to the unit, as well as a tough leader if you choose to make him defensive.

All around I think breaking them up is a better idea just b/c of how the unit was made, but I think that could really make for an interesting list.

There is a lot of different options that open up when you have such a maneuverable anvil.

Hope that helps.

Gaargod
23-05-2009, 19:54
I'd say a better 'anvil' would be a hydra, oddly enough.

Its quick. It doesn't have any static combat res, but it should draw/win combats by its killyness alone. Maybe have a BSB standing near it in case it all goes horribly wrong.

Rubicon
24-05-2009, 17:43
I like the list alot, good flexibility and somethign different than normal. Try to get the ring inthere tho

Wapniak
24-05-2009, 18:00
Cool list, really different from what I'm used to see.

However mind that your Dark Riders have a only 4+ armour save and their spears give them +1 Strength on charge. They can't fight in ranks (sadly). You can use the smaller Dark Riders unit as a screen unit, for the bigger block. A Master on Dark Steed added to the big block would make it more killy. Perfectly a cheap master with a 1+/2+ save and Lance (and maybe Null Talisman/ Ring of Hotek).

Two blocks of 6 FC (maybe without Musican) Cold One Knights (one with Std. of Slaughter, the other with warbanner) would be great 'Hammer' units.

tricker53
25-05-2009, 06:20
as i suggested earlier in this thread, how bout using the CoK as the anvil instead of the hammer? much better survivability than the DR and they can have better static res through magic standards.

PeeKay
25-05-2009, 15:50
It's a personal preference but I dont like the idea of paying more than 15 points for any figures that are going to be in rear ranks and thus not earning their keep actually hitting things :) I'm a horde player at heart.

PS final point though on a practical issue, given that each DR costs £6.85, 15 of them will come to the horrific sum of £102.75 ...nasty.

Ouch, I know but I actually need 20 DR in total and that comes to £137. I was thinking of using proxies for testing and then try and find a cheap way of making DR. I was thinking of converting Glade Riders. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


if you want an anvil unit, i think the CoK unit with the slaughter banner is your best choice. its got an average of +3CR which cant be lost through kills (until the standard dies). maybe you could turn the DR block into a simple 5-man with xbows and bulk that CoK unit upto 10 or possibly more. another way to add to the static CR is making your master a BSB, perhaps. and lastly, a bulky CoK unit, we cant forget, causes fear so if you outnumber and win. . . good luck to your opponent.

The banner of slaughter only gives you +D3 on the charge. So it is 1-3 CR (not average) on the charge but the next turn no bonus CR and to make the CoK ranked would effectively double there cost. However, making the Master a BSB is inspired.


Put a BSB master in the unit with a warbanner and RoH or w/e you want. This will add some serious SCR to the unit, as well as a tough leader if you choose to make him defensive.

Hope that helps.


However mind that your Dark Riders have a only 4+ armour save and their spears give them +1 Strength on charge. They can't fight in ranks (sadly). You can use the smaller Dark Riders unit as a screen unit, for the bigger block. A Master on Dark Steed added to the big block would make it more killy. Perfectly a cheap master with a 1+/2+ save and Lance (and maybe Null Talisman/ Ring of Hotek).

Great ideas and I am going modify the list and republish below.

PeeKay
25-05-2009, 16:13
Master
Dark Steed, BSB, Lance, Armour of Darkness, Ring of Hotek - 161


15 x Dark Riders
Full Command, Shields - 305

5 x Dark Riders
RxB, Musician – 117


5 x Cold one Knights
Full Command, Ring of Hotek, Banner of Slaughter - 235

5 x Cold one Knights
Full Command - 175

------
993 pts

TheDarkDaff
25-05-2009, 16:46
The big problem i can see with the large block of Dark Riders is you are trying to make them do something they don't do very well (generate Static Combat Res). You get +2 for ranks, +1 for Standard and probably +1 for out number (US of 30 to start with) while most infantry units start at about +4 (Ranks and Standard) but match you for AS (both 4+) and can (maybe) take a magic standard plus cost less.

There are a few things you can do to help. Add a BSB with Caledors Bane and Blood Armour to give you that extra pip of SCR and also throw in 3 S7 attacks on the charge (to hopefully fix up his Armour with a few wounds). This give the unit an element of ACR to compliment the SCR of about +4 (if you count the BSB). Of course this turns your Dark Riders into an anvil by themselves but on the plus side you will have a reliable and fast hammer (which Coldone Knights are not).

BTW your second list isn't legal. Your BSB can't be the General.

PeeKay
26-05-2009, 09:42
I thought that the BSB couldn't be the General but I could not find the rule that stops me. Do you know where the rule is (page number)?