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View Full Version : Should Blood Angels and Dark Angels be rolled into a single Codex: Angels of Death?



The Emperor
21-05-2009, 01:24
When they first got a Codex many moons ago, it was as a combined Codex featuring both army lists called Codex: Angels of Death. It wasn't until 3rd edition that they got their own individual Codex's, although even then they weren't "real" Codex's, as they were just mini-dexes which required you to buy Codex: Space Marines. And to top it off, they only had a fraction of the fluff contained in Codex: Angels of Death. Then the Dark Angels finally got their own, real, Codex in 4th edition, whereas the Blood Angels only got a White Dwarf article.

So now here we are in 5th edition, so my question is, what would you folks prefer? Do you want an individual Codex for each, or would you be fine with combining them into a single book?

Speaking for myself, I think they should be combined into a new "Codex: Angels of Death". The two armies really aren't all that different from each other. Nearly all of their wargear is the same, and the same is true for nearly all of their units. They've only got a few unique units, each, and a few bits of unique wargear. And when it comes to new models, neither of them really constitute a full release. Even combined, they don't really constitute a new release (and in fact, wouldn't really need a whole lot of new miniatures, as they're pretty much covered, though I could see a few here and there getting redone. Azrael needs a remake, bad, as does Lemartes. And we could use a Belial miniature).

As for the army list, there're one of two options they could employ. 1) They could make two wholly separate army lists. The army list, itself, doesn't actually consume a whole lot of space. It eats up 17 pages in Codex: Space Marines, so assuming the army list is about the same length for both, that'd be 34 pages in a potential Codex: Angels of Death. If they go for a page count like Codex: Space Marines, that's not bad at all. Likewise, the "Forces" section wouldn't be that much bigger. Extra page for Death Company, an extra paragraph on the Terminator page for the Deathwing, extra page or two for the Ravenwing, etc. So one could probably make a pretty jampacked book with a similar page count to Codex: Space Marines despite having two army lists inside.

Or 2) They could put them all in one combined army list, but add a special rule disallowing the mixing of Blood Angels and Dark Angels units. Something as simple as an army wide special rule stating that "Units identified specifically as Blood Angels can't be included in armies with units identified specifically as Dark Angels and vice versa". Then simply attach an extra line to a unit if it's Chapter specific and you're set. For example, here's a potential army list:

HQ
Commander Dante [Blood Angels]
Chief Librarian Mephiston [Blood Angels]
Chaplain Lemartes [Blood Angels]
Captain Tycho [Blood Angels]
Azrael, Supreme Grand Master [Dark Angels]
Belial, Master of the Deathwing [Dark Angels]
Sammael, Master of the Ravenwing [Dark Angels]
Ezekiel, Grand Master of Librarians [Dark Angels]
Chapter Master
Captain
Librarian
Interrogator-Chaplain [Dark Angels]
Chaplain

TROOPS
Tactical Squad
Scout Squad
Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod

ELITES
Deathwing Terminator Squad [Dark Angels]
Terminator Squad [Blood Angels]
Terminator Assault Squad [Blood Angels]
Sternguard Veteran Squad
Venerable Dreadnought
Furioso Dreadnought [Blood Angels]
Ironclad Dreadnought
Dreadnought
Techmarine
Legion of the Damned
Death Company [Blood Angels]

FAST ATTACK
Assault Squad [Assault Squads may be taken as Troops, in which case they count as Blood Angels]
Ravenwing Attack Squadron [Dark Angels]
Ravenwing Support Squadron [Dark Angels]
Vanguard Veteran Squad
Land Speeder Squadron
Space Marine Bike Squad *
Attack Bike Squad
Land Speeder Storm
Scout Bike Squad

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastator Squad
Thunderfire Cannon
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer
Predator
Baal Predator [Blood Angels]
Whirlwind
Vindicator

* Note: While the current Dark Angels list doesn't include Non-Ravenwing Bikers and such, it should.

Those're some possibilities, anyway. So what would you folks prefer? Do you want to see a separate Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Dark Angels, or would you prefer to see a combined Codex: Angels of Death? And if the latter, would you prefer for the book to contain two separate army lists, or for the army lists to be combined as suggested above in order to save space? Looking forward to your replies, folks. Thanks.

Col. Tartleton
21-05-2009, 01:28
I actually believe that there should only be an Ultramarines codex of fanboyishness and that everyone else will be fine using count as to make their force unique. Chaos Marines included. And Rebels. And Necrons since bolters are just like gauss and they're both 3+ saves oh, and sisters of battle as well.

Remember children, I'm always right.

Next Question...

(I actually Agree with Emperors idea of a intermingled single dex.)

hawo0313
21-05-2009, 01:36
I think that 1 codex is aa great idea and that this would allow GW to release them at the same time without giving us the horrible 4.5 mini dex and the ancient one the DA have now

Urath
21-05-2009, 01:55
Mm, IIRC Codex: Angels of Death had a wonderful abundance of fluff regarding the Angels, which is good for anyone starting out or for a nice catalogue for backstory.

That's what a codex should be; a fluff library that details the heroics of your force and gives reasons for why the force is the way it is. As the armies are both "tragic" in one form or another, a combined codex to showcase these brutal legions seems like a nice idea to me, with two distinct army lists or, one army list but choices for different chapters are clearly defined.

Nice idea, Emperor.

EldarBishop
21-05-2009, 03:25
Anything that will increase the non-SMurf releases is a good thing IMO. :p

AngryAngel
21-05-2009, 04:00
I think the DA should get a bit more DA only stuff if they get placed in with BA into one codex. Like a mortis dread and other kinds of things. Most all armies get new units when they get a new codex. Most other chapters have things that set them apart aside from the same units, with just minorly diffrent abilities and point costs.

massey
21-05-2009, 04:18
This would be fantastic. It solves three distinct problems with one book. First, Blood Angels need a new codex. The WD list is okay as a hold-you-over, but Blood Angels have so much more fluff and style to show that they really need their own book. Second, the Dark Angels codex was really just "Codex: Space Marines v.5". They need a power boost. There's a reason a lot of DA players are just using the SM book. Finally, one problem is that a lot of armies are waiting their turn. This would speed things up a lot.

One of the uses of a codex is as a fluff guide. That, and not weird special rules, is the reason these two chapters need their own books. They've got loads of unique characters and background, as well as people willing to pay $$$ for them (yes, I know that your particular craftworld has its own characters, but there aren't enough customers for it). Combining them back together would be a nice throwback to 2nd edition.

Acolyte
21-05-2009, 04:22
No. The armies are just too different. They barely even share any units any more-down to the common tanks and bog-standard Marine and Assault squads. Their fluff, playstyles and lists are just too different to combine any more. It'd be like trying to integrate a Khorne and a Slannesh list.

Oh, wait. :rolleyes:

Gutlord Grom
21-05-2009, 04:28
I'd say it be easier to put the Blood Angels, Dark Templar and Dark Angels characters into the next SM Codex (long may it be delayed). Give out some special rules like the current SM Special Characters. Saves time and printing, and it be easier than going between 5 different codices to make sure Land Raiders work the same.

Inquisitor Engel
21-05-2009, 04:54
HQ
Commander Dante [Blood Angels]
Chief Librarian Mephiston [Blood Angels]
Chaplain Lemartes [Blood Angels]
Captain Tycho [Blood Angels]
Azrael, Supreme Grand Master [Dark Angels]
Belial, Master of the Deathwing [Dark Angels]
Sammael, Master of the Ravenwing [Dark Angels]
Ezekiel, Grand Master of Librarians [Dark Angels]
Chapter Master
Captain
Librarian
Interrogator-Chaplain [Dark Angels]
Chaplain

Why do we need to bother with the Chapter Master entry if we already have Dante and Azrael? ;)



TROOPS
Tactical Squad
Scout Squad
Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod

Solid.



ELITES
Deathwing Terminator Squad [Dark Angels]
Terminator Squad [Blood Angels]
Terminator Assault Squad [Blood Angels]
Sternguard Veteran Squad
Venerable Dreadnought
Furioso Dreadnought [Blood Angels]
Ironclad Dreadnought
Dreadnought
Techmarine
Legion of the Damned
Death Company [Blood Angels]

Take out the Sternguard and take out the Legion of the Damned. Blood Angels don't deploy their first company like that and besides, the Codex chapters need SOMETHING that's decent.

You don't get to Codex + Fun toys, you lose things too.



FAST ATTACK
Assault Squad [Assault Squads may be taken as Troops, in which case they count as Blood Angels]
Ravenwing Attack Squadron [Dark Angels]
Ravenwing Support Squadron [Dark Angels]
Vanguard Veteran Squad
Land Speeder Squadron
Space Marine Bike Squad *
Attack Bike Squad
Land Speeder Storm
Scout Bike Squad

Take out the Vanguard for the reason above. Nice point on the 6th and 7th Co. Land Speeders and Bikes.



HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastator Squad
Thunderfire Cannon
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer
Predator
Baal Predator [Blood Angels]
Whirlwind
Vindicator



No Redeemer and taking the Baal negates access to another one of the Rhino-chasis tanks at least.



While this is a good start, the big issue here is how to keep it in one list and have it be easy to make a list from, especially keep the current Codex Format. If you made it two codexes in one, it'd be nearly the size of the rulebook!

Personally, I think it'd be easier to do this:

I think two books are fine. Both Chapters are pretty renown, and both deserve their due.

The Emperor
21-05-2009, 05:32
If you made it two codexes in one, it'd be nearly the size of the rulebook!

Not necessarily. If they make a Codex the same size as Codex: Space Marines, then even if they do two separate army lists, we're talking about 34 pages for those two army lists out of 144. That'd leave 110 pages for other stuff. As for that other stuff...

The "Forces of the Space Marines" section in Codex: Space Marines is 45 pages long. How much longer would it be in Angels of Death? Let's compare that section in Codex: Space Marines to how it may look if it were relocated into Codex: Angels of Death.

Chapter Master: No difference, except noting that Dark Angels Chapter Masters would be Fearless (Note: The original Codex: Angels of Death did just this. It'd have an entire page devoted to Librarians, then have a paragraph talking about the special rules associated with Dark Angels Librarians).
Honor Guard: Blood Angels Honor Guard, ruleswise, don't appear very different from standard Space Marine Honor Guard, aside from equipment, so same here.
Captain, Command Squad: No change here, save for a notation that the Dark Angel version is Fearless.
Librarian: No change here, save for a notation that Dark Angels Librarians are Fearless. In addition, the psychic powers on the second page may be different, with some being restricted to members of one Chapter or another. Or the list may be identical to that on Codex: Space Marines.
Chaplain: The same, with an additional blurb on Interrogator-Chaplains.
Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad, Vanguard Veteran Squad, Sternguard Veteran Squad, Terminator Squad: The same.
Deathwing Terminator Squad: Add one page to this section.
Death Company: Add one page to this section.
Dreadnought: The same, save for adding a bit on the Furioso and Mortis Dreadnoughts.
Scout Squad, Scout Bike Squad, Bike Squad: The same.
Ravenwing: Add two pages to this section.
Drop Pod, Master of the Forge, Techmarine, Servitor, Thunderfire Cannon, Land Speeder, Land Speeder Storm, Rhino, Razorback: The same.
Predator: Add a blurb about the Baal Predator, but otherwise the same.
Whirlwind, Vindicator, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader, Land Raider Redeemer: The same.
Marneus Augustus Calgar, Cato Sicarius, Varro Tigurius, Ortan Cassius, Torias Telion, Antaro Chronus, Pedro Kantor, Darnath Lysander, Kayvaan Shrike, Vulkan He'Stan, Kor'Sarro Khan: Subtract 11 pages from this section.
Azrael, Belial, Sammael, Ezekiel, Dante, Mephiston, Lemartes, Corbulo, Tycho: Add 9 pages to this section.
Legion of the Damned: The same.

That should about cover it. So for the most part, while clearly it'd have to be rewritten with the Dark Angels and Blood Angels in mind, the "Forces of the Angels of Death" section would only be about two pages longer by comparison (Adding 4 pages worth of new units to the list, but make up for it by dropping two pages worth of special characters, as you only need characters for two Chapters, not six).

Then we go to the Wargear section. Aside from unique relics which're already listed with the characters, the Dark Angels don't really have anything unique. So no additions, there. The Blood Angels, on the other hand, have Exsanguinators and Over-Charged Engines. So let's add one to the Wargear section.

And I think that about covers it. So assuming a 144 page Codex: Angels of Death, 34 pages will be used up by the two separate army lists, leaving 110 pages. Another 47 pages will be used up by the "Forces of the Angels of Death" section, which'll leave 63 pages. Eight more pages for the Wargear section leaves 55 pages. A 20 page color hobby section leaves 35 pages for fluff. That's 17 or 18 pages per Chapter. Doesn't sound to great, but...

The fluff section in the current Codex: Dark Angels is 15 pages long. And of course, the current Codex: Blood Angels doesn't really have a fluff section. So Dark Angels actually get more pages. They'd even get more than the Ultramarines in Codex: Space Marines, who get about 14 or 15 pages. And in the original Codex: Angels of Death, the Dark Angels had six pages of fluff, whereas the Blood Angels only had five. And yet those 11 pages were more then enough to give us a ton of backstory on both Chapters. But instead of 11 pages, we'd get 35 here! All for the size of Codex: Space Marines.

So yeah, one could pack in a WHOLE lot for both Chapters in a book the size of Codex: Space Marines. And that's if you assume that they get two separate army lists. Imagine how much more they'd be able to pack in if they merge the two army lists into one (there's definitely an argument for not repeating the entries for Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, Assault Squads, etc)? Pack in a whole lot while at the same time giving both Dark Angels AND Blood Angels players more fluff and attention than they've ever gotten in any prior release, before. And that's without getting into the fact that units like Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, etc, will get a whole page written on them, as opposed to having five of those units squeezed onto one page, like in the current Codex: Dark Angels.

Raibaru
21-05-2009, 05:50
To be honest, I wish they'd put all marines in a common codex, call it Codex: Astartes and have a single HQ relevant to each of the major chapters that convert the standard list into one more fitting of each of the various themes.

Simply not enough different between the marines to warrant 5 separate books.

I'd pay an extra $10 for the Codex: Astartes book if they did this as it would obviously be about double the size to fit in 2-5 pages of flluff for each of the chapters.

Now all that said, I don't like the idea of a Blood Angels and Dark Angels combined book. The 2 have nothing in common really besides having the word "Angels" in their name. If we must stick to seperate books, and GW can make it worth the effort, I'd say give them each their own.

MetalGecko23
21-05-2009, 05:55
Hmmmmm........yes..yes...and more yes! I'm all for an Angels of Death codex with seperate lists. Though I think we could bump up the codex size from 144 to 150 (cuz the Dark Angels enjoy divisible by 5).
Though if there was a new codex I would hope some new stuff was added to both armies.
On the army list I think:
Dark Angels get Sternguard only as they are more Dark Angel then Company Veterans.
Blood Angels should get Vanguard as they are just like Assualt Veterans.
Maybe see the return of Stubborn for Dark Angels (its their rule way do Space Marines get it) and Furious Charge for Blood Angels.

I would like to see the return of Dark Angels being the shooty marine army and Blood Angels being the assualty army. That way you have two completely different army styles in one book.


To be honest, I wish they'd put all marines in a common codex, call it Codex: Astartes and have a single HQ relevant to each of the major chapters that convert the standard list into one more fitting of each of the various themes.

Simply not enough different between the marines to warrant 5 separate books.

I completely agree. I would take if further and say I would like to see Codex Astartes and have it be as big as the core rule book. It would include all the stuff from codex insignia and have every little thing about marines in it you could ever possibly want.

The Emperor
21-05-2009, 05:55
Why do we need to bother with the Chapter Master entry if we already have Dante and Azrael?

I figure it'd be nice for those who want to play a Dark Angels or Blood Angels successor with their own madeup Chapter Master. Or hey, maybe even a replacement for Dante or Azrael? No reason I can't use a Chapter Master in place of Marneus Calgar with my Ultramarines, after all.


Take out the Sternguard and take out the Legion of the Damned. Blood Angels don't deploy their first company like that and besides, the Codex chapters need SOMETHING that's decent.

You don't get to Codex + Fun toys, you lose things too.

Well, in the case of the Sternguard, I figure they're about the same as the Dark Angels Company Veterans. So maybe make them Dark Angels specific? Whatever the case, it's not a completely accurate list, though. That's just an example of what I mean by a combined list.

As for the Legion of the Damned, I think they should be there. There's no reason that they'd pop out and help 600+ Chapters, but not the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels. Likewise, they should show up in the Space Wolves and Black Templars list, too.


Take out the Vanguard for the reason above.

Similar to above, they should probably be Blood Angels only as they're the equivalent of the Veteran Assault Squad, which the Dark Angels don't have.

Either way, that's just an example of how I think a combined list could work. Just have a rule which simply states "This unit can't be used in the same army list which includes members from another Chapter". A simple time-saving device so that a lot of the units which'll inevitably be duplicated in such a book aren't duplicated. Much like the Daemonhunters army, which allows you to take inducted Space Marines or inducted Imperial Guard, but not both, you'd be able to take units specifically identified as Blood Angels or Dark Angels, but not both.

The Emperor
21-05-2009, 06:10
Yep, back in 1996 or so. It was 120 pages and very nice. I just think it'd be a good idea since, for the most part, their units are pretty much the same. So why not playtest both armies at once and release them at once in the same book, and save a whole lot of time, while benefitting the players of both? And if it's about the same size as Codex: Space Marines, then both armies would be blessed with a large page count for their individual fluff. And personally, I'm in favor of cutting down the number of Imperial books, period (including merging Daemonhuntes and Witch Hunters into a single Codex in a similar way, and maybe even Space Wolves and Black Templars).

senorcardgage
21-05-2009, 06:15
I would like to see Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels all in one large book, all with their own army lists.

I would then like to see WH and DH put together.

laudarkul
21-05-2009, 06:58
Nope, I want two books. A Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Dark Angels.
In fact it will be perfect to have a codex for each original Legion and maybe with their most well-known successor chapters (loyal or traitor)/a lot of fluff/... .With the same number of pages as SM codex. This will give us a lot of info's/armies to choose from/a lot of moneyfor GW:D.

Corpse
21-05-2009, 07:06
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
(Successor chapters, including Fallen Angels and renegades not part of chaos)
+All the other "Angel" chapters and DIY chapters.


One codex to rule them all. People already play dark angels with SM codex, and many armies as blood angels counts-as. Why not just meld them all together into one codex, with obvious drawbacks of being over-specialised lacking certain elements of the mainstream space marine codex.

Special characters being deviations just like C:SM, with counts-as options. Wanting some death company, pack the blood angel special character chaplain... Just like to pack troop termies/bike troops you must take a special character in C:DA.

Then meld Space Wolves with Black Templars in a codex of their own with melee perks attuned to their style... (Maybe the ability to assault out of rhinos on a roll of a 5 or 6 when they deploy, or deploy in small units of 5 or something) stuff like that....

Then in ten years when everyone accepts the codexes, just make it one universal codex: "Space Marines Of Every Type, Kind, Color And heritage".

Seriously, I rather them just put any codex they dont care about on the internet as a PDF like the kroot and blood angels....

Captain Shrike
21-05-2009, 07:08
While it's nice you are taking the first steps, as someone said, you cannot have codex stuff+additions. Keep Legion of the Damned, but lose Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. VAS are meant to be the equivilent. You have to let the marines keep some shiny stuff, or I will not hate smurfs. I will hate BA and DA.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-05-2009, 07:19
A new Codex Angels of Death would be great I think.

They are mostly Codexs Chapters anyway. Give it a core army list both can use and then add a couple of special characters and a few unique units like the Death Company, Raven and Deathwing in each chapters section and you are all set.

And it would also mean we could get rid of the silliness that are Assault Marines as troops. Where did that come from, it's certainly not in the fluff for Blood Angels.

Taipan
21-05-2009, 07:21
I think it's going to introduce too many problems to integrate both into one book. They're quite different forces really.

I think things are fine as they are. This is how people should look at building SM armies;

- If you want a battle-company style force, use the Ultramarine book. Cheaper, better options and better support units.
- If you want a crazy assault force of Marines, go for Blood Angels. They have free Death Company, Assault Marines as Troops, turbo-charged vehicles etc.
- If you want a Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Double-wing army, use the Dark Angel book. You can have an entire army of Fearless models, which either zip around blowing up your armour and torching your infantry (Ravenwing) with impunity, or landing with pinpoint precision and walking through your fire to crush everything with powerfists (Deathwing). Aggressive, in your face and brutal.


So, you have three army options there. Each is viable and competitive (yes, even Blood Angels), but each require a different playstyle and more to the point, player mindset.

If you are the kind of person that likes a balanced approach, in the sense of a traditional SM army, go for the battle-company style of the Ultramarine book.

If you are a big fan of drowning your opponent in combat with your superior assault infantry, take Blood Angels.

If you like an army of Terminators, or a biker army, or want both delicious flavors in one Fearless, aggressive package, look to the Dark Angel codex.

Luckywallace
21-05-2009, 07:26
There would be so much duplication if they did seperate codex books it would just be silly to produce Codex: Blood Angels and then Codex: Dark Angels.

As it is, there would still be a ton of duplication from Codex: Space Marines, but I can understand making books for the 'Angel players as they are such a large player-base.

It would make financial sense as well - G.W. would only have to produce one book, but all the Blood Angel and all the Dark Angel players would still buy it. I cannot imagine there are *that* many Blood AND Dark Angel players out there.

Brucopeloso
21-05-2009, 07:49
Personally I's roll all non codex chapters in a single "deviants" book with common options and HQ unlocking units and upgrades :)

Usopreme
21-05-2009, 07:56
That's funny, I never thought I would see the day where internet discussion would change my opinion about something. I voted for two separate books but after seeing the justifications for one with two separate lists I think that is the superior option. Save room on duplicate rules but make sure there is tons of fluff and both armies are still unique and the combined releases for two sub armies should equal one full. Thank you for enlightening me brothers.

SylverClaw
21-05-2009, 08:03
You seem to want your cake and would also like to eat it with that list.

Consider that, rather than 6 million people playing Sallys they'd all switch to Blood Angels - because they get all the cool toys from the SM codex plus all the cool Blood Angels only stuff. Do you really want that?

And, would GW really just reprint 70% of the SM 'dex for this one? Can you imagine the number of people who'd whine on this forum about units being exact duplicates between codexes? And the number of Angel codex armies painted Ultramarine blue, doing counts-as so they can get the new toys?

Take a look at the BT 'dex. It's completely different from any other SM 'dex produced. That's how radically different a combined or individual codexes need to be for these armies. You can't lazily just pinch the highlights from every SM army.

I say wait for the Wolves 'dex. That will show us all the way forward and what GW plan for the rest of the SMs. Personally, I'm hoping that we'll see something which isn't completely Wolfy... as someone already said around here, Iron Hands could be done very nicely with a Wolf list.

The Emperor
21-05-2009, 09:02
You seem to want your cake and would also like to eat it with that list.

Are you referring to my OP? As I've said several times, that list is nothing more then an example. It doesn't mean anything more than to serve as an illustration of how a combined Blood Angel/Dark Angel army list could look like. It contains everything simply because I didn't want to sit there and think "Hmm, does this unit fit the fluff of the Blood Angels? Should this unit be excised from the Dark Angels?", etc. What I put on the list doesn't matter. I just posted it to show a method by which you can have Blood Angel and Dark Angel units in the exact army list without mixing and matching BA/DA units. It's nothing more then that. It's certainly not an argument for Blood Angels/Dark Angels being Codex: Space Marines +1.

Petay1985
21-05-2009, 09:03
i beleive that the more books the better, providing they are given the attention they require.
as much fluff, art and photos possible.

seperate codex's allow (potentially) for a more diverse game with each army being uniquie, if only slightly, from one another!

AlmightyNocturnus
21-05-2009, 09:27
I`m a Chaos Marine Player and I think the rolling of all the legions into on elist was a good idea.

I`m a Blood Angles player too, and I think the rolling of BA, DA, AND Space Wolves AND Black Templars into a second Codex:Space Marines is also a good idea.

I`m not a Tau player, but I believe streamlining the armies into about 8 codices is for the greater good (for everyone). With their pace of 3 codices per year, GW could update everything in 3 year cycles, keeping each army`s rules more balanced and evenly distribute TLC to every player`s army (instead of neglecting some armies for 5, 6, 7 years).

That`s my feeling on the subject.

Almighty Nocturnus

Flypaper
21-05-2009, 09:27
In spite of the names, Blood and Dark Angels make for a poor merger - they simply don't have much in common in terms of fluff, tactics or level of divergence.

If you're going to put two lists in the same codex (as "Codex: Slightly Different Marines"), it makes more sense to put out Blood Angels + Black Templars. If you're going to merge them into a single list, then this combo still makes more sense since they're both CC-oriented.

Dark Angels should either be given a significant workover with multiple new and exclusive units, or just folded back into C:SM with their Special Characters allowing for 'Wing armies.

With their pace of 3 codices per year, GW could update everything in 3 year cyclesNo thanks, it takes me that long just to paint up an army! 5-year cycles is about perfect - though I wouldn't say no to a better system of updates/support/erratta in the meantime.

toonboy78
21-05-2009, 09:51
no one hs mentioned the iron hands. surely they would deserve a seperate codex. i think the easiest thing is to do WD stuff like the blood angels codex. the only problem with that is it doeos not make GW any money.

Souleater
21-05-2009, 09:54
My Souleaters Chapter have been BA successors since 2nd Ed.

I remember the old Angels of Death book. It was nice and fat with plenty of fluff and two seperate lists.

I vote for a combined Dex.

BA get a list with maybe a little more options and GW get to fix the mess of inconsistencies between DA and UM lists.

m_r_parker
21-05-2009, 10:07
I personally vote for anything that gets the Dark Angels equipment correct quicker.

The 2nd Edition Angels of Death was a fantastic book, and one i still read to this day for the great background detail of the chapters.

I think as long as it is kept within the bounds of two completely seperate lists, then it could work quite well. Trying to meld them together into an uber-list with criteria and pre-requisities would be too complex. One thing to bear in mind is that in the current Blood Angel army lit allows for one Death Company marine for each squad chosen, with the appropriate points for the Death Company tagged onto the base cost of the squad. Unless this was changed (and have Death Company as a completly seperate entity, maybe even non-mandatory) then there would have to be muliple points costs per squad entries to reflect this. Keep them seperate, keep it simple.

At the end of the day, both of these Chapters got shafted by experimental rules being forced upon them, and only one gets an official Codex. Blood Angels deserve their own proper Codex, and both lists need updating to reflect changes to wargear and rules in the new 5th SM Codex. Bung them together, do a good job, and watch the money pile in. I would buy a copy of it in a heartbeat, and I personally know of many more who would follow suit just as quickly.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-05-2009, 11:13
In spite of the names, Blood and Dark Angels make for a poor merger - they simply don't have much in common in terms of fluff, tactics or level of divergence.



There also isn't that much difference between them.

The differences for Dark Angels is that there First Company is all Terminators, and that there Second Company is all Bikes and Speeders.

Blood Angels have Veteran Assault Marines and the Death Company.
Give each a small handful of special characters and you are set.

So that gives you the following units that could go into a shared list.
HQ:
Space Marine Captain
Libarian
Chaplain
Master of the Forge
Command Squad

Elite:
Terminators (I'd just make one squad with options, and make it possible to upgrade to Deathwing)
Venerable Dreadnought
Ironclad Dreadnought
Dreadnought
Techmarine
Legion of the Damned

Troops:
Tactical Squads
Scouts
Rhino
Razorback
Drop Pod

Fast Attack:
Assault Squads
Scout Bikers
Bikers
Assault Bikes
Land Speeders
Land Speeder Storm
(Give all the Biker/Speeders the option to upgrade to Ravenwing)

Heavy Support
Devestators
Thunderfire Cannon
Land Raider
Crusader
Redeemer
Predator
Whirlwind
Vindicator

Then you have a section for Blood Angels with
Dante
Mephiston
Tycho
Cabulo
Veteran Assault Squad
Death Company

Dark Angels gets:
Azrael
Belail
Sammael
Ezekiel
Rules for Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Add a keyword saying if a unit is Blood Angel or Dark Angel and that you can't mix the two and you are set.

So the Ravenwing option for Bikers would look like this

+X points Dark Angel Ravenwing. This unit is a Ravenwing unit. The differences between them is minor really. You could easily fit everything in there current books into a single book if the size of Codex Space Marine is anything to go by.

So the Angels are IMO a fairly good match, because they really isn't all that different from Codex marines. Space Wolves or Templars on the other hand is much harder to fit into the same mould.

You got 30 shared choices between the two armies.
The differences is that they each get four special characters and two special units each.

It's certainly not an unworkable option.

Poseidal
21-05-2009, 11:34
I like it, but then I have nostalgia for 2nd edition so I'm biased there.

Also, remove Sternguard and Vanguard Vets and replace with Veteran Squad [Dark Angels] and Assault Veteran Squad [Blood Angels] restricting each to separate lists and being in line with their previous books.

I'm not too keen on the magic bullets for them though; perhaps DA Vets get to be cheaper, but have the veteran statline and more special weapon options than Sternguard do in the main book.

Also, take out the Ironclad (don't think it suits either force), Thunderfire and maybe some of the other new units.

Sticking to blue should still have some advantages.

Hood
21-05-2009, 11:34
They are fine as they are you... you... Blasphemers!!! HERETICS! PERISH IN FIAAAR!!! :mad: :skull:

Lord Damocles
21-05-2009, 12:34
Didn't vote for any of them.


I'd prefer a 'Codex: Space Marines', and a 'Codex: Chapters of Legend' (or similar) to contain full lists (the actual army list in the current Marine codex only takes up 18 pages) for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, and possibly Iron Hands.

Kirill
21-05-2009, 12:49
I'm against this simply for the fact that i *Want* My own codex as a Dark Angels player, i don't want to share with another chapter and reduce the size of my codex, i don't want to have a list that has sections for Blood Angels and Dark Angels only units, if you're going to do that you might as well produce two codexi and get more money for the same amount of production. IE, rather than charging Eighty Australian dollars and discouraging people from playing either of these factions and opting for Space marines instead, people would be more encouraged to play them for half that. Confusing point, but it's in there somewhere :3
And hell, with how long it would be, pages would fall out, just like they did with the space marines codex D:
I can't really explain why either of these should even go together in the first place, other than they both have "Angels" in the name :rolleyes:
To me, they are the epitome of opposites, with the Dark Angels being Dakka, and the Blood Angels being Choppa. You might aswell put Iron Warriors and Imperial fists in the same codex.. ( Okay, not quite, but you get the idea. )

As to the suggestions of forces, i would love to see more of an actual shift away from C:UM / C:SM ( I never get tired of the irony of the first one ) and have Dark Angels and Blood Angels get their own codex and actually be different for once! Along with every other chapter there is, they could be as different as Necron and Eldar, given the chance. ( Well, not quite, but you get the idea )
I like to throw around the idea of Blood Angels having two Assault weapons in tactical squads, to fit the more-over assault and blood lusting feel of the Blood Angels, with Dark Angels getting two Heavy weapons in tactical squads, to represent the more stubborn, dug in sort of feel i love so much about them. With prices increased / decreased and certain options denied as would be fit.
Though I probably don't have many fans with these ideas, or my general "We are the first, we bloody well should have our own codex! And i guess Red Cordial marines should get the same treatment.." and there would be no end of crying to the way that the Dark Angels have too many heavy weapons despite the fact it would probably be (since it would be incredibly easy too) balanced. My point is, i hate the idea of sharing a codex with anyone. Ever. The 'i does wish 2nd was still here' is quite moronic, the fluff might have been great, but at the end of the day, it's still there, in the second edition codex and just because they would share the same codex, doesn't mean it would even be close to the bloody same! And at the end of the day, it would probably turn out to be a mushed together fiasco.
And Syria, this "I hatez mareeenzh 'cause dey 'as tooo many codexers' really needs to go jump, and if it doesn't know the way, I'll show it.
/darkangelnazimodeoff

Captain Micha
21-05-2009, 13:08
Frankly they should each just have a page in Codex Smurfs anyway.

Marines with different paint jobs are still marines. Even if they get "special units".

Same model range should have the same codex.

Guard can pull off one book, and I don't think there's anyone on this forum delusional enough to say that Marines are more varied in how they fight than IG, or heck even Eldar.

GideonRavenor
21-05-2009, 13:10
The problem with Blood Angels is that they need more units and artistic definition; at the moment they only have a couple of unique vehicles in a very bland style and some special characters. What they really need is a plastic sprue and a determined direction, like the other non-codex chapters.

toonboy78
21-05-2009, 13:12
Didn't vote for any of them.


I'd prefer a 'Codex: Space Marines', and a 'Codex: Chapters of Legend' (or similar) to contain full lists (the actual army list in the current Marine codex only takes up 18 pages) for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, and possibly Iron Hands.

seconded. this is a better idea, and do the same for chaos. standard CSM and legions of legend.

Corrode
21-05-2009, 13:14
I'm against this simply for the fact that i *Want* My own codex as a Dark Angels player, i don't want to share with another chapter and reduce the size of my codex, i don't want to have a list that has sections for Blood Angels and Dark Angels only units, if you're going to do that you might as well produce two codexi and get more money for the same amount of production. IE, rather than charging Eighty Australian dollars and discouraging people from playing either of these factions and opting for Space marines instead, people would be more encouraged to play them for half that. Confusing point, but it's in there somewhere :3
And hell, with how long it would be, pages would fall out, just like they did with the space marines codex D:
I can't really explain why either of these should even go together in the first place, other than they both have "Angels" in the name :rolleyes:
To me, they are the epitome of opposites, with the Dark Angels being Dakka, and the Blood Angels being Choppa. You might aswell put Iron Warriors and Imperial fists in the same codex.. ( Okay, not quite, but you get the idea. )

But they AREN'T that different. Blood Angels aren't Wolves or Templars, they're not OMG CC. They have a slight predilection for CC which means that given the choice they'll charge in, but they're basically Codex Marines with one ragey emo squad of combat monsters (ASSAULT SQUADS AS TROOPS ^_^ not withstanding). Dark Angels are much the same - they're Codex Marines who can take a couple of fancy divergent lists, which use 99% the exact same rules and models as standard SM. Hell, with Kor'sarro Khan you can even make a good job of doing Ravenwing in the regular SM book.

C:AoD is historically viable, goes some way towards allaying the problem of 'omg 5 marine codices' and 'DA are outdated, BA are in Limbo', and ADDS to the fluff and such for both Chapters. Hell, if you did a two-in-one list (which has precedence, the line in the Witch Hunters 'dex about not being able to take Allied Space Marines if there's units with the Adepta Sororitas rule already works like this) then you could get even more extra stuff in.

Honestly, your first line ('I DON'T WANNA SHARE A CODEX :(:(:(') just reads like the kind of typical special-boy stuff that so annoys many non-Marine players. It's not helpful or practical.

borithan
21-05-2009, 13:17
I would vote for a merged one, but then I want a single, massive "Codex: Imperium", bringing everything from the various SM books, Guard, Inquisition books together, and then adding more on top.

Truthfully you could have one, larger, Space Marines' codex. The number of really unique units for each chapter are limited, and they all share a lot. I think you should have 1 codex for all of them. The first part would be the base, codex list, with all the general units (General Chapter Masters, Captains, Chaplains, Librarians, Command squads, Terminators, normal Veterans, Tactical Squads, Scouts, Assault Squads, Land Speeders, Bike Squads, Devastators, Predators, Land Raiders etc). After that would come smaller sections for the various famous/variant chapters. These would have relevant Special Characters, special units, any special rules, and then individual army lists which would take into account strange organisations, prevalence of certain units, etc, and of course, background bits. The waves of special chapter specific units is largely due to trying to justify giving Chapters individual books. Deathwing are still terminators, and at most only really need a special rule, Ravenwing are still land speeders and bikers, so same goes there. The various veterans are still veterans, so don't really need extra rules. Black Templars and Space Wolves are slightly more difficult, but still could be done with one page unit entries in their relevant section for each of their unique units (those that actually matter, getting rid of those that are just basic troop types with added bling for the sake of it).

If Guard, which have far more variety between units and fighting styles, can do with one book, then Space Marines could easily do with one.

BLARGAG!!!
21-05-2009, 13:37
Ok, I didn't vote because the option for "Make all the Marine Codexes into one book" wasn't there.

I am of the opinion that ALL of the "variant" marine books should be scrapped and have all of them shoved into one book. I mean come on, they did it with Craftworld Eldar and the craftworlds were/are MUCH more different than any marine chapters could be from one another (and you don't see the Eldar player complaining about it now do you?).

I am coming at this from the standpoint of "There are 6 or 7 marine codexes at the moment and my army (Witch Hunters) is using a codex that has been around for more than half my life (the book is more than 10 years old at this point). I think that is kinda disgraceful for GW. They have 6 or 7 ARMIES for (imo) EXACTLY the same guys, while my army (that is pretty unique) hasn't even had new models since 2nd edition.

Just my 2 cents.
BLARGAG!!!

Kirill
21-05-2009, 13:40
But they AREN'T that different. Blood Angels aren't Wolves or Templars, they're not OMG CC. They have a slight predilection for CC which means that given the choice they'll charge in, but they're basically Codex Marines with one ragey emo squad of combat monsters (ASSAULT SQUADS AS TROOPS ^_^ not withstanding). Dark Angels are much the same - they're Codex Marines who can take a couple of fancy divergent lists, which use 99% the exact same rules and models as standard SM. Hell, with Kor'sarro Khan you can even make a good job of doing Ravenwing in the regular SM book.

C:AoD is historically viable, goes some way towards allaying the problem of 'omg 5 marine codices' and 'DA are outdated, BA are in Limbo', and ADDS to the fluff and such for both Chapters. Hell, if you did a two-in-one list (which has precedence, the line in the Witch Hunters 'dex about not being able to take Allied Space Marines if there's units with the Adepta Sororitas rule already works like this) then you could get even more extra stuff in.

Honestly, your first line ('I DON'T WANNA SHARE A CODEX :(:(:(') just reads like the kind of typical special-boy stuff that so annoys many non-Marine players. It's not helpful or practical.


Firstly. All chapters *Should* be different. I hate stagnant gaming scenarios as much as the next man, Marines should have separate Codexi for a reason, Dark Angels and Blood Angels should be the way they are now (White dwarf bandages not withstanding) In two separate and different books, both of them addressed like two separate and different races within the game, using some - many of the same units. I'm not crying 'needz more speshul' for no reason, I want difference!

Secondly, I feel that the argument for "zomgawsh, too much mareenzh" is mostly founded on in gameplay, if they all played differently, or with a noticeable difference, Something more than just "half of this pile of terminators deep strikes.... There!" then most of the argument itself would be resolved because these armies are different from what regular space marines can field and what other space marines can field, and hopefully very different from what other races can field. To my eyes, having one single codex for two chapters who should never even been considered the same to play against or with, would just be going backwards when realistically, moving forward entails things being utterly different, and for the same reason, separate.

DisturbedMind
21-05-2009, 13:43
I think that both Dark Angels and Blood Angels should be given separate codex's while changing both to ignore neglect or bend the rules set by the Codex Astartes to a greater extent. As they are now, they are way to Codex to warrent having a separate book.

This of course would require some changes or re-writing of the fluff for each, while still retaining what people like or love about both.

With Dark Angels, using the hunt for the fallen as a way or reason to change thier tatics. Even revealing new squad formations and machines that where not known to the rest of the imperium untill recently, cos we all know how much the Dark Angels like hiding stuff:D.

I would like to see them change Dark Angels to being more of a static/ heavy weapons force, one that like to bring in a large amount of tanks and have thier troops footslog rather than have transports. Things like Tacticals not getting an assault Weaon but getting 2 Heavy wepons, as well as other simular sort of idea's.

While still having Deathwing and Ravenwing options to either act as the fast response units for other Companies or as a force of thier own.

As for Blood Angels I would like to see alot more fluff on them to begain with plus expand on Black Rage and Red Thirst as well as the mindset of the chapter. I would like to see a bit of a mix of the 3rd and 4th editions directions, where 3rd was a little over the top 4th was seemed to be way to suppressed, so a mix of the over the top assault and speed as well as representing the noble and artistic side of the chapter.

I would like to represent the Blood Angels hunger for close combat by taking away Heavy wepons from thier Taticals and giving them 2 assault weapons, I'd like to see something like assault Rhinos which count as open topped or something like that, more tanks getting over charged engines giving them the ability to move and shoot more weapons than Codex marine tanks, maybe even something to make the whole army better in combat.

4 Assault weapon Dev's would be interesting also:D. Something really has to be done with the scouts though, they changed them to elites and then made fluff about them being some of the most flamboyant in the chapter as well as being the most eger to get into close combat, but the only difference being they have higher Ws and Bs as well as less options now. I think they should be made into real veteran like squads that are primarily close combat oriented as well as quite adept at crippling and disrupting the enemy, having something that can cause delays in reserves and such as well as more weapon options when it comes to special weapons as well as close combat weapons like power weapons with abilities like furious charge, move thourgh cover and fleet would suit.

I also think that the way Death Company are generated should be changed and again I think it should be a mix between the way 3rd did things and the way the 4th edition codex is doing things.

Failing this they should probably be put together with separate lists

Captain Micha
21-05-2009, 13:44
Okay, then where's Codex Exodite Eldar

How about, Traitor Guard

Farsight Enclaves

Kroot Mercenaries

They are not different races. They are Space Marines. They are more similar to each other by far, than Catachan is to Cadia, or Exodite is to Craftworld.

Kirill
21-05-2009, 13:49
Okay, then where's Codex Exodite Eldar

How about, Traitor Guard

Farsight Enclaves

Kroot Mercenaries

They are not different races. They are Space Marines. They are more similar to each other by far, than Catachan is to Cadia, or Exodite is to Craftworld.

Bring them on, Micha, I would love any and all of these to come to the fore, the more the merrier. Believe it or not i wrote half my original post with you in mind.. :rolleyes: I've stalked around warseer alot.

These sorts of armies would make great additions to the game. Traitor guard have needed a full 'dex since the dawn of time and really there's no excuse not to make them, other than delaying them for updates to existing armies that are older than the emperor.. :rolleyes:

Captain Micha
21-05-2009, 13:54
That's kinda my point :p

Gw can't even keep up with the armies they have now thanks to the Smurfs. Isn't it better to have just one very well made codex per army? *I'd prefer Gw start selling these 100+ pagers in hard back though. Especially for the price point they are selling these books at*

I'd rather have one incredibly well thought out army, than a bunch of attempts at throwing **** at a wall and hoping it sticks. That way you don't end up with "my storm shield..... doesn't even remotely function like the one in X codex.. even though it's the same thing supposedly" or widely varying rules of the -same unit- between codexes.

After Codex Eldar, was released and with as incredibly flexible as it is *there's really no craftworld it doesn't do. It even does Corsairs reasonably well with Counts as... it just doesn't do Exodite or Harlequins.... at all (I would argue codex Daemons actually does Exodites and Harlequins better)*, I think it's entirely possible for GW to get it right in one attempt. The Guard codex only solidified this belief for me.

Kelanen
21-05-2009, 14:09
Option4: They shouldn't be seperate codexes at all.

If they have a right to their own codices, then so do all other chapters. They should all be handled from a standard SM codex, with special rules/chars and counts as.

Kirill
21-05-2009, 14:14
That's kinda my point :p

Gw can't even keep up with the armies they have now thanks to the Smurfs. Isn't it better to have just one very well made codex per army? *I'd prefer Gw start selling these 100+ pagers in hard back though. Especially for the price point they are selling these books at*

I'd rather have one incredibly well thought out army, than a bunch of attempts at throwing **** at a wall and hoping it sticks. That way you don't end up with "my storm shield..... doesn't even remotely function like the one in X codex.. even though it's the same thing supposedly" or widely varying rules of the -same unit- between codexes.

You have good points, and for the life of me i don't know why the space marines codex didn't have a hard back, maybe it might have stayed in one piece if it had. ._.
I'm a huge advocate of those older codexi being updated too, I doubt the reason some aren't update has everything to do with marines, but it has a portion at the least, and realistically you're right, they currently, as it stands cannot actually update enough to keep everything standardized, which is where the separate codexi for Space Marines is it's own downfall.
Races differ more than marine codexi, which is exactly the reason they need to stop being anything like each other, and start being totally different and actually warrant having Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Blood Angels as a separate, which basically brings me full circle through my extraordinarily awesome posts back to the reason why these two need to be kept separate.
And why they need to start having "universal change" articles in white dorf, which tell me my storm shields are just like those listed in the new codex :3

Captain Micha
21-05-2009, 14:16
Yes but your policy change counts on GW growing a brain and stop letting it's designers sit around and do nothing every day but paint and play with their models rather than forcing them to actually design rules.

It would also count on White Dwarf to stop being a 10 US Dollar piece of worthless sales ad that you are paying for, for some reason.

We both know that ain't gonna happen :evilgrin:

Kirill
21-05-2009, 14:32
I like to muse to myself when i lay awake at night thinking about pointless things, like that games workshop is slowly taking steps into the right direction with these things, and might eventually start releasing patches for codexi somewhere, but who knows, maybe I'm just being overly hopeful D:
Also, i get white dorf every month, hasn't been worth it in recent times, but hell, i like standard bearer. I like Jervis.

self biased
21-05-2009, 14:38
it's been stated before, and i agree with it: roll all the space marines into one codex, and divide by styles of chapter rather than actual names.

Gutlord Grom
21-05-2009, 15:45
Could someone tell me what actually make Blood Angels and Dark Angels so different outside of Special Characters and the odd special unit?

borithan
21-05-2009, 16:21
Traitor guard have needed a full 'dex since the dawn of timeNo, they really don't. They need a single page... or maybe at most 5, in a "Imperium" or Chaos" super-codex. They are too close to guard to make it worth a codex.

Lost and the Damned maybe, but not Traitor Guard.


Could someone tell me what actually make Blood Angels and Dark Angels so different outside of Special Characters and the odd special unit?Nothing, like all the Space Marine types.

the1stpip
21-05-2009, 16:24
I don't like any of those choices.

I want the Angels subsumed into Codex: Space Marines.

LonelyPath
21-05-2009, 20:14
Whoile Codex: Angels of Death might be a cool idea, I'd personally prefer a book respective to each chapter. It's also likely how GW would do it since they started their big "one army, one book" policy a couple of years back.

Ozendorph
21-05-2009, 21:04
I'll take whichever option gets the DA an updated codex the fastest. The "Angels of Death" nostalgia is a plus. However, it'd be nice if they didn't make the DA suck to compensate for the BA being a team of superheroes this time, lol.

Sister_Sin
21-05-2009, 21:25
Well...personally I prefer two separate books, but only because if they combine them the background inevitably suffers. If they put both in one book as separate lists AND kept the background nice and full, sure, I think that would be fine.

Sister Sin

Kirasu
21-05-2009, 21:55
How about

"Yes, but please keep Jervis "I have the creativity of a rock" Johnson away from it!"


Well...personally I prefer two separate books, but only because if they combine them the background inevitably suffers. If they put both in one book as separate lists AND kept the background nice and full, sure, I think that would be fine.

Sister Sin

I assume you're a dark angel player. The blood angel "Codex" has LESS fluff than the dark eldar codex :( A combined codex couldnt possibly reduce the BA fluff any further

Sister_Sin
21-05-2009, 22:16
I'm a Salamanders player.

Erf, less than the Dark Eldar? O-o I don't have the current DA codex...I just commented based on the old 'not enough space' statement that often comes along with combined books of various sort.

Both of them ought to have full blown codices as far as I'm concerned.

Sister Sin

captainramoz
21-05-2009, 22:28
To be honest, I wish they'd put all marines in a common codex, call it Codex: Astartes and have a single HQ relevant to each of the major chapters that convert the standard list into one more fitting of each of the various themes.

Simply not enough different between the marines to warrant 5 separate books.

I'd pay an extra $10 for the Codex: Astartes book if they did this as it would obviously be about double the size to fit in 2-5 pages of flluff for each of the chapters.

Now all that said, I don't like the idea of a Blood Angels and Dark Angels combined book. The 2 have nothing in common really besides having the word "Angels" in their name. If we must stick to seperate books, and GW can make it worth the effort, I'd say give them each their own.
Thatīs the best and iīll say definitely the best idea ever.:D
That way non-unique codex legion users wonīt feel bad or in disadvantage
Then all legions will have the same equipment and we will get like five pages for fluff of each chapter(maibe more if we want to add special units in that section)
Iīll pay the price of the rulebook for that codex or maibe they could bring us fluff and special units in the old Index Astartes way(not bad Impfist got some rules there)

Bunnahabhain
21-05-2009, 23:27
Another vote for the missing option, Codex:Space Marines, to cover all loyalist chapers.

Better written can fit more marines into less space.

Trekari
22-05-2009, 15:01
I love posts where people assume they know what units the DA 'should' have access to.


you cannot have codex stuff+additions. Keep Legion of the Damned, but lose Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans. VAS are meant to be the equivilent.

996 Chapters have Vanguard and Sterngaurd, but not those silly DA. :rolleyes:

There should be one Marine Codex, until the amount of fluff they include for each specific chapter they want to give handjobs to makes the book too large.

GW's rule-writing and Codex publication is an absolute joke. They claim to be a miniature company that also has a game, but they'd sell MORE models if they could get their **** together in the first place.

Da_Killa
23-05-2009, 05:35
i think it would be to complex and confusing

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-05-2009, 07:06
Well...personally I prefer two separate books, but only because if they combine them the background inevitably suffers. If they put both in one book as separate lists AND kept the background nice and full, sure, I think that would be fine.

Sister Sin

The originally arrived in a combined Codex Angels of Death and it got tons of fluff on them both. It could suffer if GW wants it to, but it doesn't have to just because it's a combined book.

Codex Angels of Death is why you see Dark Angels and Blood Angels being distinct Chapters today with there own lists, and why they each have a strong fan base.


I like it, but then I have nostalgia for 2nd edition so I'm biased there.

Also, remove Sternguard and Vanguard Vets and replace with Veteran Squad [Dark Angels] and Assault Veteran Squad [Blood Angels] restricting each to separate lists and being in line with their previous books.

Who are these Dark Angels Veterans? For normal marines all veterans go in the first company, but the Dark Angels first company is all terminators. Giving DA veterans actually helped make them less special, not more and doesn't, to me at least' fit the fluff at all.


Also, take out the Ironclad (don't think it suits either force), Thunderfire and maybe some of the other new units.

Sticking to blue should still have some advantages.

Eh? The Close Combat based dread originated with Blood Angels so I don't see why they wouldn't have it.

But that's part of the problem with the Marine books as they stand now. Baring a few special cases they really all should be 99% similar. Of the chapters that have lists Wolves and Templars are really the only ones that are wildly divergent from the Codex organisation. And even they would almost certainly have the same equipment available as anyone else.

Dark Angels special 'thing' is the slightly different organisation of the first and second company and a reputation for planning things very carefully. Everything else, like the Inner Circle, Hunt for the Fallen, etc. is behind the scenes and wouldn't apply on the table top (and really, neither does the planning well, as that's up to the player).

Blood Angels special thing is there Death Company and Veteran Squads who are all assault squads. Again, everything else, like being very artistic, long lived, etc. is in the background, not on the table top.

Marine Chapters as a general rule just isn't that different in organisation, equipment or even tactical doctrine. They all have the same role as elite heavy infantry tactical strike teams. They specialising in airborn/orbital assaults. Specific chapters might have a preference for going about things in certain ways, but they will still have the equipment and skills to do everything else too, and that's what they do if the situation calls for it.

Given the limited scope we see in 40k they really should all be pretty much alike.

Master Stark
23-05-2009, 07:13
To be honest, I wish they'd put all marines in a common codex, call it Codex: Astartes and have a single HQ relevant to each of the major chapters that convert the standard list into one more fitting of each of the various themes.

Simply not enough different between the marines to warrant 5 separate books.

I'd pay an extra $10 for the Codex: Astartes book if they did this as it would obviously be about double the size to fit in 2-5 pages of flluff for each of the chapters.

Now all that said, I don't like the idea of a Blood Angels and Dark Angels combined book. The 2 have nothing in common really besides having the word "Angels" in their name. If we must stick to seperate books, and GW can make it worth the effort, I'd say give them each their own.

+1

Quoted for truth.

Sidstyler
23-05-2009, 07:39
I vote all Marines in one book, as well. Either that or every other race should get multiple codices like Marines, but in my opinion it's just easier to put all Marines in the same codex...

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-05-2009, 10:03
Codex: Space Marines should cover all Codex Chapters, or those that can approach such an organization.

I don't believe Black Templars or Space Wolves can fit in such a Codex. Iffy about Iron Hands, but I believe it could be done (if they never, ever, ever mention a Chapter Master from them again *facepalm*).

I think that if they improved the 'Chapter Tactics' idea a bit and made it a concept available to line commanders instead of just specials, it would be much improved.

For example, upgrade one HQ to give one Assault Squad Furious Charge and Rending, or whatever.

Similarly, any HQ on a bike, jump pack, or in Terminator Armor may take the units in the list (and Land Speeder squadrons in the case of the Biker HQ) as Troops. And upgrade their Command Squad/Honor Guard with that equipment.

But there'd have to be a limit on such Chapter Tactics, like there is now (even if you have more than one, only one may apply in any given battle).

I don't think Mortis Dreads or Furiosos have to be unique to their respective Chapters. Perhaps not even the Baal Predator. We got the Crusader, didn't we?

It's an inevitable fact of such a Codex that it would have a massive number of special characters. Give them a perk for an appropriate cost, but please nothing like Cassius (hur hur Marine with MC durability) or Lemartes (stupid cheap to the point that it's stupid to take a different Chaplain).

Fluff wouldn't suffer if the book didn't consist of 'ALL ULTRAMARINES! ALL THE TIME!'

On the topic of other armies:

Orks, Craftworld Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, Tau, Daemons, and Dark Eldar are fine with one book. But several of the above need a new single book.

Harlequins shouldn't have a 'dex of their own. Keep them as special units within other Eldar books.

Inquisition could be solidified into one.

Chaos need a better book on par with the newer ones. But we can make do while the other races catch up.

Adeptus Mechanicus, Lost and the Damned, Exodite Eldar, and probably some I've missed could get a book in lieu of the subsumed SM Codices.

Thus, speculative lineup includes:

Codex: Space Marines (Codex Chapters, including BA, DA, and probably IH; as well as Renegades)
Codex: Black Templars (and perhaps other Crusaders who adopt their style)
Codex: Space Wolves (almost 100% SW)

Codex: Chaos Space Marines (with an extreme focus on Legions, kthx)
Codex: Daemons (for when the Daemons really come out to play)
Codex: Lost and the Damned (mutants/traitors/scum/witches led by CSM)

Codex: Imperial Guard (well duh)
Codex: Inquisition (the major Ordos and their Chambers Militant)
Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus

Codex: Craftworld Eldar (which can also represent Corsairs)
Codex: Dark Eldar (which can also represent Corsairs)
Codex: Exodite Eldar (the violent Amish of the Eldar race)

Codex: Orks
Codex: Necrons (get the C'tan out of there!)
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Tau Empire (also a jumping point for minor alien races)

EDIT: And I think Codex: Daemons could be a good place to explore Chaos Eldar. They exist and are incredibly powerful, though incredibly rare. So an Eldarin Daemon Prince would be a sweet new toy.

self biased
23-05-2009, 15:55
Codex: Space Marines should cover all Codex Chapters, or those that can approach such an organization.

I don't believe Black Templars or Space Wolves can fit in such a Codex. Iffy about Iron Hands, but I believe it could be done (if they never, ever, ever mention a Chapter Master from them again *facepalm*).

i think there's a massive flaw in everyone's thinking on how to approach this.

hold on. put down your torches and pitchforks for a moment and listen to me before you storm the castle.

the idea that DARK ANGELS get a few bonus units is absurd. the idea that KAYVAAN SHRIKE makes an army more Raven Guard-y is counter-intuitive. one could cover just about all the different styles of marines we have with four or five distinct lists. firstly, a CODEX list to cover that rather broad spectrum. then, have a MONASTIC list to cover the idea of a first company all in terminator armor. an ASSAULT army could cover two bases and go for either bikes or assault marines as the star unit. one or the other, mind you, not both in one army. one could use a SIEGE army to describe a force that has a lot of dreadnoughts and a preponderance of techmarines. lastly, we come to the CRUSADE army for that style of play (it should be noted that Space Wolves are at the core of the matter more similar than different with regard to the Black Templars).

what your actual chapter is should be moot. if someone wanted to play a Black Templars first company with all Terminators why not let them? crusading Dark Angels? no problem. with as broad and varied as marines are, the player shouldn't be shoehorned into playing a specific chapter because of the rules, and a player shouldn't be forced to use certain tactics because they like the fluff and paintjob of that chapter.

as for special characters, they should be relegated to the realm of Apocalypse battles and be given a royal treatment.

starlight
23-05-2009, 17:07
Interesting point...

My DIY Marines look like this:

Legio Phoenix Templar

Each Legio Crusade force is composed of the following -

First Century - reconnaissance - Ravenwing rules
Second Century - strike assault - Blood Angel assault marine (all jump pack) rules
Third Century - mech assault - Codex Marines rules - mech
Fourth Century - siege assault - Deathwing rules
Fifth Century - security force - Codex Marines rules - balanced
Sixth Century - Daemonhunters - Grey Knight rules
Seventh Century - recruits - Codex Marines - Scout heavy

Garrison force - IG rules

self biased
23-05-2009, 21:12
i think the idea could work if done properly.

Pitalla Crimson
24-05-2009, 08:26
sounds interesting but the Blood Ravens should be thrown in there aswell.

Warsmith_13
24-05-2009, 08:36
Do Blood Ravens even get any special options?

Skyrir
24-05-2009, 08:50
I actually believe that there should only be an Ultramarines codex of fanboyishness and that everyone else will be fine using count as to make their force unique. Chaos Marines included. And Rebels. And Necrons since bolters are just like gauss and they're both 3+ saves oh, and sisters of battle as well.

Remember children, I'm always right.

Next Question...

(I actually Agree with Emperors idea of a intermingled single dex.)

You are disgusting.



LoLz

self biased
24-05-2009, 14:33
sounds interesting but the Blood Ravens should be thrown in there aswell.

then drop two librarians in your army. the idea is not to say one chapter is one thing, but to apply the labels from the other way and end that line of thinking.