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Emissary
21-05-2009, 02:55
This came up this evening and I haven't seen it asked yet (though, I'm blind so it probably has).

When you kill guys off it's howdah, do they count towards the combat resolution? Tonight, I charged a mumak with my morgul knights and it killed one of my knights on it's turn. Then I did 3 wound counters to it and killed 3 crew. Do I win 3-1 or does it win 1-0? Normally monsters can't lose if they're by themselves as either it's alive or dead for casualty purposes. However, the mumak is a monster with crew.

xxRavenxx
21-05-2009, 08:46
I would say, given that it has individual and killable figures riding on it, that you would win combat 3-1.

Mumaks are decidably hard to wound (one stand attacking with support is not generally a good way to win a fight with an ollyphant.) so the situation shouldnt arrise too often I'd think.

Rirekon
21-05-2009, 09:02
How many wounding hits did you get? Because that is what matters.
i.e. Against R4 you would need 4 hits to get 1 wound

Wound counters and crew are irrelevant when it comes to combat resolution

xxRavenxx
21-05-2009, 09:21
Why are crew irrelveant? A siege engines crewmen arent ignored, why would a mumaks?

Its not calculated on wounds inflicted either, its models killed.

Rirekon
21-05-2009, 10:30
Why are crew irrelveant? A siege engines crewmen arent ignored, why would a mumaks?

Its not calculated on wounds inflicted either, its models killed.

Wounds inflicted remove the crew in both bases - however it's not guaranteed against a Mumak.

So how do you calculate combat resolution versus a Troll? I'm pretty sure the Troll doesn't auto-win as long as he's alive.
Seriously I don't have the book with me, what does the section on combat resolution actually say on the matter? I'm pretty sure it talks about successful hits rather than models removed (though they are usually the same versus infantry).

Emissary
21-05-2009, 11:40
The book specifically states on monsters on page 51:


It's worth remembering that as a monster cannot suffer casualties in the same way as infantry and cavalry - it is either alive or dead. As such, a monster will only ever test for panic if it is on the losing side in a multiple fight. While monsters can survive heinous wounds, they can be driven to fright by the deaths of smaller allies.

Combat resolution is only done by casualties inflicted, not hits inflicted. IE if my knights inflict 10 hits on your infantry and your infantry inflict 12 hits on my knights in return, I my knights win 10-6.

The problem with a mumak is that every other monster is a singe model while the mumak is "one company comprising of a mumak and 13 crew". Hence you can have guys dying while it survives if it's the only thing in combat.


Wounds inflicted remove the crew in both bases - however it's not guaranteed against a Mumak.

The mumak is also unique in the Ridiculously Hard to Kill Chart. Every one of the levels on that chart kills crew. Even a 1 on the chart kills crew.

Rirekon
21-05-2009, 11:53
Ah well, in that case use the crew as your marker in my opinion

mike bays
22-05-2009, 03:32
I believe that the crew would count as casulities due to the fact that they are removed and lost those attacks. I think the mumak is the exception to the rule for monsters.

ismar
22-05-2009, 11:39
The mumak isn't a monster, it's a formation. So it can lose lose a fight like any other formation (i.e. losing more models than the opponent).

Thanks,
Don

Rirekon
22-05-2009, 12:02
All Monsters are Formations - the difference is most Monsters are a single model

Jorgen_CAB
22-05-2009, 12:21
The rules also tells us that Monsters are only fielded as one single model. So my interpretation of the Mumak is that you must treat the crew and Mumak as one model. The crew are nothing but counters for the number of attacks the Mumak gets. Simply treat the Mumak as any other type of monster. Makes the rules more streamlined and I'm also pretty sure that is the intent of the Mumak as well.

Emissary
22-05-2009, 13:24
The problem with a mumak is that every other monster is a "singe model" while the mumak is "one company comprising of a mumak and 13 crew" in the rare/common formation listings. That's by biggest problem with that line of reasoning Jorgen.

Jorgen_CAB
22-05-2009, 14:02
I know, and this has been discussed a million times so we can't resolve it either. I go by the mentioning in the rules that Monsters are always fielded as single models. I think that the gray box that describe the Mumak is an oversight and mistake by the developers.

We will know when an FAQ arrives.

Emissary
22-05-2009, 15:02
yup

10 characters

Jorgen_CAB
22-05-2009, 18:20
One other BIG reason for why I think that the Mumak (as other monsters) should be treated as one model are because of the "Hope is Lost!" rule. If you think that the Mumak is fourteen models it is removed when seven models are dead as casualties. The Mumak is not Indomitable.

You can't have the cake and eat it too...

kench1
27-05-2009, 12:18
I think a mumakil should take a panic check if it looses combat by taking more crew wounds than its enemies do, but if it fails to rally and therefore cant move, would it then rampage if it failed its crew check ?