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oma
21-05-2009, 07:11
Tyrant
Heavy armour
1 luck gnoblar
2 sword gnoblars
Thundermace
Greedy fist
Wyrdstone

BSB
Heavy armour
Tenderiser

Butcher
2 scrolls

Butcher
Scroll
Bangstick

3 Bulls
3 Bulls
3 Bulls
3 Bulls
9 Trappers

4 Ironguts
4 Ironguts
4 Ironguts

2 Leadbelchers
2 Maneaters

2221

So, i want to go with the thundermace cause i just love the fluff. It is also probably the most imaginable weapon to use when using the single attack. I will probably use it as a normal magical great weapon most of the times, and only in fights that is in dire need of help from the dice gods, and against units i know i will win anyway (striking last with the tyrant to check what cr i gain with kills before making that decition).

I will try out using 2 butchers for a while now, and depending on how it works for me i will either go back to using only 1 butcher and 1 bruiser or keep it like it is. I do not like to loose the CC capabilities of the 2. bruiser, but the winds of magic is dangerous and scrolls are needed often. There is also the point that im paying 50 points for something i might not use, like if i meet dwarfs.

Lots of bulls, as i have been growing fond of my chaos hounds in my beastmen army, i want to have those throwaway units to.. throw away :p I will try to deploy 2 units of bulls for 2 unit of ironguts as detatchments. One baits and flees, the other threatens flank, while the ironguts try out the front, prefably with a character.

Depending on who i face, the tyrant will go with the maneaters for the stubbourness (just in case the thundermace misses), the bsb close by (at least 12") in an irongut unit. The butchers will hang around to throw magic missiles, panic tests and occationally buff some units.

The changes and questions i have regarding the list:

1) having 2 banners, one with warbanner at least, in 2 units of ironguts. - How could i make that happen?

2) should i use a bruiser with 2-3 thiefstones instead of a butcher?

3) should i trade in 4 ironguts and the leadbelchers with regular bulls?

4) where would i get the points for musicians here?

Da GoBBo
21-05-2009, 07:34
Well the only way to get two magic banners is to have a BSB and an Irongut unit. In order to get that banner on the BSB you would have to drop the tenderiser so I'd understand if ye don't want that. You could just trade it for a regular great weapon and a magic banner. You have to decide whether that second magic banner is more important than winning challenges hands down and slaying monsters a lot fasters.

It seems like a lot of battleline, I like it. Perhaps its wise to get some more leadbelchers to deal with those fast cav units?

oma
21-05-2009, 08:06
I forgot that only one irongut unit was able to have a magic banner. So that takes care of that.

I dont actually like leadbelchers, and would not go for more of them as i am not that concerned about fast chav (with the chance of sounding stupid). But i feel that regular bulls can take on fast chav if need be, and that non-fast-chav units are of higher priority. Leadbelchers will statistically get 5 shots, hit 2.5 of them, and wound 1, so its not really the best way to play it. I only have them for the baiting and flankcharging (and they are already painted :P )

Is taking 1 dispelscroll a viable option to have 4 musicians in here? And would musicians be of more aid than banners?

AlmightyNocturnus
21-05-2009, 08:47
I understand your feelings about using Butchers, but in a tournament - and at that point level - you almost have to use three. If you use two, you have to max out on Dispel Scrolls. Epsecially these days, there are several magic heavy lists (Gateway, Tzeentch Daemons, Teclis, and pretty much any VC list) that are popular. Ogres can close the gap and get into charge range quickly compared to most armies, bu you need to at least stiffle or trip up your opponents magic phase in the first two turns. Also, if you go down to only one Butcher, the Bangstick becomes nearly useless since nearly every army will have more than enough dispel dice to nullify your magic phase AND your one bound item. I`ve found that the Bangstick works best with three Butchers: your opponents have to really think about what spells they let through and what they try to dispel...PLUS they know an extra load of magic missles are coming from the Bangstick.

About not using Leadbelchers, they also seem like a necessary unit to me in a tournament setting. But, Bulls could be a cheaper alternative. I`m curious how that works out. You do have a lot of units of Bulls, so you could spread them out a bit to intercept fast cavalry or flying units. If they all have Musicians, you could use them to lure and run away like most people use Leadbelchers.

Since you don`t like Leadbelchers so much, how about replacing them with a Gorger (usualy quite useful for getting at enemy shooters and wizards and such) and use your leftover points to get three Musicians for your Bull units?

Almighty Nocturnus

oma
21-05-2009, 12:47
If i where to ditch the second butcher, it would be the one with the bangstick, keeping the 2 scrolls at least, and having a bruiser with 2-3 thiefstones on him. And regarding what i will face, i dont think there will be many powerlevels over the 6th powerlevel (some might go for 8). Its a small turnament where most people know most people, so no one wants to bring cheesieness anyway.

Bulls will be used in the bait and flee tactic as leadbelchers will be used. The positive thing with bulls is that i have to loose 6 wounds to not be able to negate ranks if i want to use them to flank. They are also better at facing fast chav in cc with being higher US and having more attacks.

But back to the question: would dropping 1 butcher for a bruiser with 3 thiefstones be a smart choice?

Mercules
22-05-2009, 04:34
I wouldn't drop a Butcher. Then again I love Gut Magic.

I find with 2 Butchers you can get a few spells off each turn and give anyone with <7 dispel dice a headache. If you cast with 1 die and do what I was doing today of rolling a lot of 5s and 6s you end up eating up numerous dispel dice. My opponent was having to let spells go to get rid of others and save a die for the Bangstick.

Does he want to let me heal my butcher? No... have to take a panic check... maybe. Take 2d6 S2 hits no armor save on his To3 Knights? No... and so he dispels and then I get a Toothcracker or something else on my units. Otherwise he stops the buffs and allows his troops to take panic checks. :)

If you need points for a few things... Loose the Sword Gnoblars. I took them in a fluffy army and while one did stick an upppity Elf Prince in the foot once, that was a bunch of unlucky rolls from my opponent and you can't count on those.

oma
22-05-2009, 15:32
So, something more of the lines of this:

Tyrant
Heavy armour
1 luck gnoblar
Thundermace
Greedy fist
Wyrdstone

BSB
Heavy armour
Tenderiser

Butcher
2 scrolls

Butcher
Scroll
Bangstick

3 Bulls - mus
3 Bulls - mus
3 Bulls - mus
3 Bulls - mus
9 Trappers

4 Ironguts
4 Ironguts
4 Ironguts

2 Leadbelchers
2 Maneaters

2251

So, how important would a banner with the warbanner in it be? Or if comscores are giving me bonuses for having banners, should i loose the musicians to get 2 banners?

oma
22-05-2009, 19:24
Dobble post: i tried out this list today against chaos warriors.

His list was of

2 exhaulted champions on horses, each in a unit of 10 chaos warriors: his main blocks
4 dragon ogres
6 chaos knights
2 spawns
22 moroders: his mage bunker
1 Lv4 mage
1 Lv2 mage
2 units of 5 hounds

It was a draw, an exiting game where both had their share of luck and bad luck. I probably the worst as 1 of my irongut units ran off the table due to his magic trickery :p

On one part of the table his exaulted champion killed my butcher outright in the first turn, and eventually ran down my maneaters, and on the other part of the table a unit of ironguts killed his other unit of warriors and ran them down.

ironskullbo
27-05-2009, 23:35
i play my ogre army in tourneys quite often and usually place in the top four. i take a tender tyrant with mawseeker and wyrdstone necklace and fistful of laurels. he does quite a bit of damage and can take on most characters in a challenge even if they go first. i beleive in a tourney settiing that three butchers is a must. they are just way too good at bolstering my units lol. plus as far as amges go they are good fighters. i also take three units of four ironguts....the fighters in the army. one gorger and only one maneater with heavy armor abd a greatweapon. the maneater gets left alone by my enemy and gives me an easy deployment. where are your gnoblars?!?!?! two units of twenty is perfect. two easy deplyments that can capture/contest table quarters. its 80 points that can earn you 200. start off by deploying them. one on each extreme edge of the table and run them up the flanks. dont put them in combat just let them sit and be annoying. two unit of four bulls with extra hand weapons. two untis of three bulls with extra hand weapons. no armor, just a waste of points. besides with three butchers you can cast the spells to make them tougher or give them regen.

Mercules
28-05-2009, 03:27
Armor is not always a waste of points. Game I played today proved it as time and time again I was poisoned by Skinks and made many Armor saves to avoid damage. Regen doesn't work against enemy shooting if they dispel it during their magic phase. While the 6+ doesn't help against some shooting, against S3 or less it at least gives me a chance.

With Ironfists my Bulls now become very versatile. In combat I can look at what I am facing. If it does enough to negate Light Armor and Shield bonus from the Ironfists, then I go with either 9 -1 AS hits or 12 S4 hits, using just the Ogre Club or Club and Iron Fist as XtraHW. If it is S3 or S4 I use the IF as a Shield and my Bulls are just a bit more durable. If they can only get 3 wounds on me, and I save 1 in 3 or 1 in 2 then I saved a Bull for another round of combat.

Tenderizer Tyrant is great... until they figure out they can refuse the challenge and leave you with an expensive greatweapon that does nothing else.

Three Butchers is not a must. I held off a Slann with 2 Butchers each carrying a scroll for 2 turns. That is enough for me to be in close combat and start making life hard on him, including in combat with his unit(Blocking MMs and such).

Ironskullbo plays the most common OK tournament list, but it is not the only. Then again because of the way the book is laid out, there are not too many huge changes from list to list, just various tweaks.

fubukii
28-05-2009, 06:07
needs more ironguts less bulls.

Mercules
28-05-2009, 13:48
Bull! Pun intended.

This is a knee jerk response. Bulls work nearly as well as Ironguts and are better against low toughness models with Extra Hand Weapons or Iron Fists for the extra attacks. Against WS3 To3 units with Light Armor. Bulls, with Light Armor and Iron Fists give me a lot of options while Ironguts just "hit things hard".

I use both in my army but the "Just take the required Bull unit and switch the rest to Ironguts." battle-cry is annoying. I suppose you will also tell him to ignore all Gnoblars but a unit of 9 Trappers.

fubukii
28-05-2009, 16:34
true, but his bulls are all bare boned therefore, id suggest ironguts

Mercules
29-05-2009, 09:11
Well, he has to keep one unit and then he could get 7 IGs in return for the 9 bulls. So he can either run 4x 3Bulls and 3x 4 IG or 1x 3 Bulls and 4x 4 IGs and 3 IGs.

4 units for screening, baiting, or attempting to get into the flank and 3 killer units, or 4 killer units and 2 screening, baiting, flanking.

He has only Trappers for Gnoblars and 1 unit of Leadbelchers. His Butchers will have to try and keep Fast Cav out of his flanks along with the LBs. As is he could divert some Bulls to help out, but if he drops to one Bull unit that might not be true.

No Gorgers to come in behind or on a flank and mess up plans so he will need the extra units for when one gets shot to pieces or flanked.

I honestly think that unless he puts in something else to tie up those attempting to march block he should keep the Bulls. If nothing else naked Bulls can chase away and/or kill flankers. They also make good cover against Bow fire.