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Ophidian
22-05-2009, 11:22
I've got a 2250 game with my Lizards coming up against Tomb Kings. This'll be the first time we've played this matchup with the 7th ed LM book, but my previous games with this opposition have resulted in me being on the toe end of a good shoeing, and I'm keen to at least put up a decent fight this time...

Problem is, I'm at a bit of a loss as to where to start. I'm not sure why people think that TKs are at the weak end of the army spectrum - I've found them to be quite powerful, their magic phase in particular.

My initial thoughts on characters are to go more fighty, but I have the sinking feeling I'm going to get hammered in the magic phase if I don't load up on magic defense (plus the big toad always seems to be more point-efficient that the Oldblood).

However, with the Krox getting a strength drop, the only sure-fire chariot killer is either a jag oldblood with GW, or a carnosaur, so that's another dilemma there.

I'm not overly worried about psychology (or, rather, I think I can reduce its effect fairly easily with krox in the skink cohorts and cold-one scarvets/totem of prophecy in the saurus). And of course the coldbloodedness helps too, and most of the special/rare are fear- or terror-causers themselves).

I am thinking the way to go is a speedy drive up the board to reduce the amount of time he has to drop laser-guided rocks and ludicrous amounts of arrows on my head. This, however, kinda precludes taking the saurus - but of course they're the ones who are more likely to actually deal out any carnage.

ARGH!

Does anyone have any experience with this matchup, or any theoretical ruminations on what would be good choices?

Spirit
22-05-2009, 11:41
Lets see, cold one mounted scar veteran, slann and engine of the gods. Give the slan lore of metal (can stop a whole unit of chariots moving).

I dont think you should have any problem vs tomb kings to be honest. If you dont want to go magic heavy then take a single skink preist on an engine (s5 no armour save burning alignment will win the game on its own) with the diadem of power for 6 dispell dice.

Ophidian
22-05-2009, 13:38
I really don't think that 6dd will cut it - assuming the army has a high priest, another priest and a tomb prince (and that's not exactly decking it out with characters, never mind bounds and the $%^&ing lost ark) then that's two incantations at 3D6, one at 2D6 and one at 1D6 - if there was a chance that any of them would fail then I'd feel safer with the 6DD, but they will always need to be dispelled...

Would you suggest metal over light? I was thinking the dazzling brightness would be good, as well as some of the missiles.

Cold-one scar vet in a unit of foot saurus, or in a unit of cavalry? Obviously the former lends the immunity to fear to the unit, but the second utilises his mobility more (as well as increasing the unit's hammer potential).

Malorian
22-05-2009, 15:51
I would ignore magic as you just won't win that battle and you'll have to put too many points in to try.

Just take a few big units of spears (we're talking 3 here, 6 wide) to grind down skeletons and chariots (chariots won't beat you o the charge) as well as a couple units of saurus cav.

For characters go combat heavy and take an oldblood on a carni and a couple of scarvets on cold ones.

Apart from this some terradons will work nice to take out those catapults.

Gaargod
22-05-2009, 17:10
I'd say stick to a carnosaur oldblood + EotG. Maybe a scar vet on cold one (or on foot if you're very worried about chariots).

Saurus will work well here. Grind large skele units down.

As for magic, its very much a case of learning what you need to dispel. The movement/shooting spell is usually the big one.

EvC
22-05-2009, 18:07
Open army book, select choices, job done. It's really that easy!

Malorian
22-05-2009, 18:22
Open army book, select choices, job done. It's really that easy!

EvC's Lizardmen List To Face Tomb Kings

Skink Chief
Skink Chief
Skink Chief
Skink Chief

15 ranked skinks
15 ranked skinks
15 ranked skinks
15 ranked skinks
15 ranked skinks
Repeat...

Stegadon
Stegadon
Stegadon
Stegadon

3 Razordons
3 Razordons


Try out his list and mine and see which does better ;)

Von Wibble
22-05-2009, 18:37
Fair point Malorian, but I would have to agree LZ have the edge in general. What's wrong with razordons??

Good LD + cold blooded

Plenty of short range shooting against a poorly armoured foe.

No need to even worry about chariots - a block of 4 led by tomb king gets an average of 2 kills on saurus from impact hits and maybe another 4 from the character and attacks? That's an easy hold for a 3 rank saurus spear unit.

Terradons are an ace in the hole - lots of hits on a chariot unit in a nasty position or of course a war machine assassin.

I think with TK most army lists you would use against another foe are capable of winning. Its more about knowing when to stop a movement spell and holding back your Cube of Darkness to potentially stop a game winning magic phase.

And don't take Cupped Hands! ;)

Malorian
22-05-2009, 18:40
Razordons aren't the best against an army that can heal losses, or that can magically charge a unit into them (not allowed to flee and just set up to be to close to shoot).

And chariots aren't scary to saurus until they magically charge their flank. That's why you want several spear units and cav so you can spread out and give no chance of a flank charge.

Vampiric16
22-05-2009, 18:55
What kind of army does he have? Is it shooty orientated/magic orientated/big blocks of troops/fast?
A tactic I used recently against a TK force was to play defensively. I had 3 blocks of saurus (one w/ spears), a krox/skink unit and temple guard hold the line, with some skink skirmishers and razordons inbetween. I then had a stegadon, cavalry and carnosaur in the wings. I used magic and spear launcher to wittle his infantry and war machines. His chariots and cavalry were wittled down by blowpipes and razordon barbs as they approached, then were broken and beaten by the defensive line and counter charges from support. With the hard hitters dead my force advanced and mopped up the survivors.

Loq-Gor
23-05-2009, 05:00
I haven't played against TK since 7th ed LM came out, so take this for what it's worth, but these are a couple of tactics I would use.

Spear saurus with wide frontages and spaced to prevent outflanking maneuvers with what ever your preferred disruption unit is covering flanks. I use good ole' skinks but to each their own.

Undead armies are hordes and there is nothing a horde fears more than a good template attack. My sallies rip through my buddy's VC like there is no tomorrow.

EotG has loads of useful abilities. Does he like hordes of archers? 5+ Ward against shooting. Casket of Souls putting a damper on your magic? Reduced casting requirement to a lore effectively cancels that. Lots of chariots? Impact hits, burning alignment, and US 10 can easily mean a unit of 3 per charge, this last one does require the charge but that brings me to my next suggestion.

TK have a stellar magic phase but are no better than anyone else at stopping a Slann chain gunning spells, and the Lore of Beasts is great for this. Show them how annoying an unexpected charge can be, plus like the Lore of Metal this lore can can stop that annoying chariot flank charge. Also who doesn't like a bolt thrower you don't have to aim or being able to stop a unit from fleeing after they can't rally any longer?

Lastly I know his name is goofy, but Tiktaq'to's ability to come onto a board edge later in the game can be great. Terradons are an excellent unit to hunt war machines and lone wizards anyway, especially now that they can fly in forests and got their rocks back. But with Tiktaq'to bringing a unit in on turn two behind a Casket of Souls they can really shine. He can fly over and around dropping rocks and shooting to finish the priest off. A unit of 4 riders and Tiktaq'to means on average 17 to 18 rock hits. Not quite enough to kill a Liche High Priest but it should be enough for two wounds or a Liche Priest plus the guards. This thing was the bane of my existence when I fought these guys more often, and I really believe in this tactic as it has proven itself against dwarf war machines. It might take a little determination since if the Priest survives you will have to spend all your magic defense ensuring the priest and guards don't get healed till you charge in and finish it next turn. But if the priest on it is his Hierophant it will be well worth it, and even if it's not, the Casket is a real pain. And if he doesn't bring the Ark of the Covenant, I mean the Casket of Souls (silly me suggesting GW just ripped this thing off from Indiana Jones, they would never do that;)) then there are still lone characters, skull catapults, and small fast units deathly afraid of falling rocks.

edit: I screwed this up, was thinking d6 rather than d3 rocks. Tiktaq'to and 4 riders will drop on average 10 rocks, still ought to be enough combined with shooting to kill the guards making for an easy charge the next turn, so long as you keep the priest from healing the guards.

EvC
23-05-2009, 11:45
Try out his list and mine and see which does better ;)

I was assuming that the player would not be actively sabotaging himself in the process. A fair assumption, I would say.

Von Wibble
23-05-2009, 14:09
Razordons aren't the best against an army that can heal losses, or that can magically charge a unit into them (not allowed to flee and just set up to be to close to shoot).

And chariots aren't scary to saurus until they magically charge their flank. That's why you want several spear units and cav so you can spread out and give no chance of a flank charge.

Yes - my points kind of assume that the Tomb Kings aren't allowed magical domination, and that the spear units are taken in numbers. Beat Tomb Kings in magic and you pretty much have the game as they pretty much have to get that flank charge to win through whilst you don't.

Razordons shouldn't be shooting at anything in the TK force that can be quickly healed. They should focus on support troops like Carrion and small chariot blocks, which only slowly heal and lose a lot in movement if they choose this option. I don't think a unit is a bad idea at all.

vanakenm
23-05-2009, 15:03
I would go with one of the above posters : do not play the magic game with a TK. Ok, if you succeed at shuting down his magic phase, he is as good as toast, but this would means investing mad amounts of points in magic defense.

I did oppose a TK for the last battle with my lizardmen, where I was severly out-magicked (two incantations from the king, bound spell, two incantations from two priest, plus the damned casket, lest say 12+ PD or equivalent). My advices :

- Stop what must be stopped (the chariot charge in your flank...), and endure the rest. You can survive an additionnal volley of arrows or serie of attacks. Sure, it will hurt. This is warhammer. What does not ? Speaking of arrows, excepted on skinks, you can almost ignore them (10 shots -> 3 hits vs T4 -> 1 wound with 4+ save -> 0,5 saurus dead).

- Regarding the Casket, we Lizardmen does have a problem : flegm does not help, and our LDs are generally low (Stegadon especially). Stay grouped (and use the general LD), and for monsters which does not need to charge, remember that pivots are free. The casket cannot hurt what does not see it.

- Have some solution to hunt his mages/casket (terradons with a chief, and/or Scar Vet with charm), so that you do not need to endure them too long. For the terradons, having the general in range can help the charge (for the fear or terror check).

- Charge ! I mean, do not let him use his advantage for too long. You got serious combat units, use them. Stegadons & Carnosaurs can devastates units, and the Spear Sauris would make short works of Squeletons, while being able to stand a chariot charge. Do not hesitate to go for the "intelligent frontal assault". Stegs, cavalry & Carnosaur can charge on turn two, the saurus the following one. Surely your army can survive one or two turns of shooting/magic.

Just my 0,02 .

Martin

(apologies for any misuse of english)

Spirit
23-05-2009, 21:20
Just remember to weather his magic phase and save a scroll/3 dispell dice for the casket and youl be fine. A carnosaur to snipe mages/chariots and cheap ablative skinks to get in the way of the ones you cant kill.

A cheap skink with the pirana blade/bane head in terradons would be good to one shot his lvl 4 mages (if he has one). 3 attacks with S5 needing 1 wound to kill.

StormCrow
25-05-2009, 02:02
A slann with MR3 will shut down the casket quite effectively. Also from my experience with tomb kings you should always have a couple of scar vets with GW's, it puts the fear of god into chariot units.

The main thing to be cautious of is the magic phase. In all honesty you're usually best off letting through incantations like catapult righteous smiting because it's the movement spell that will utterly screw you over in the long term. And ALWAYS save a scroll for the heiratic jar.

Some heirophant hunting terradons would be a good idea too!

Spirit
25-05-2009, 02:53
A slann with MR3 will shut down the casket quite effectively.

Yea this is the best idea by far in the thread.

limkopi
25-05-2009, 02:58
A slann with MR3 will shut down the casket quite effectively.

No it won't. BRB FAQ Part 2. It's errata'd

Spirit
25-05-2009, 03:06
No it won't. BRB FAQ Part 2. It's errata'd

Yes it will, tomb kings specific FAQ, it's errata'd.

Q: What happens when a unit with MR is affected by the casket.
A: Magic resistance will work against the casket.

Nightsword
25-05-2009, 10:21
Be aggresive. You've got good movement, some units for good saves, can pack alot of S4 hits out (something like 25S4 attacks from a unit of saurus with spears ranked 6x3), and TK don't really have alot that can deal with high toughness monsters, not really. Your infantry is better, your movement is better, your cavalry, monsters, hell even your shooting could be better if wanted it to be.

The extra damage Lore of Light does to undead is totally worth it, and you can take and hold and fight back against anything the TK player throws at you. A bsb slaan in a unit of temple guard with the whole lore, extra dice and MR3, maybe give his unit a magic banner or a magic item like the rod of the storm, or dispel scrolls. Add in a skink priest with the diadem of power (use him to turn his power dice into dispel dice!) on EOTG is pretty handy, and you know, if you're really worried about magic take another skink priest and load him with scrolls or the cube of darkness, though I wouldn't bother. Your magic phase is pretty damn powerful yourself. A Scar-vet on cold one with the burning blade of chotec for flaming attacks, maybe bane head. I'm thinking Tomb King/prince hunter, but you could whack on the scimitar of the sun resplendant instead for +2 attacks and use him to make a mess of a units flanks (6S5 attacks? Yes please!). In a unit of 5 cold one riders, perhaps with the sun standard of chotec giving some shooting protection and you've got yourself a nice little hunting unit.

In addition to the temple guard, 2 units of saurus to guard their flanks, 6x3 with spears, maybe a couple of units of skinks with blowpipes to screen this advance, in range of the general and BSB mind. If the enemy can't see your "fighting infantry," then they should get to the fight relatively unscathed. Remember the Slaan counts as a Large Target when casting spells, so he can see over everything for the perhaps of LOS. If your worried about screaming skulls, magic missile them to death, keep aside one or two dice (remembering you can roll an extra dice with the slaan's nifty ability) and take 'em down.

Get a unit of sallies on the one flank (those template weapons will be very handy, especially against any flammable targets), perhaps a unit of krox on the other side. S6 may not kill chariots, but 9S6 attacks, especially when used in a supporting role, perhaps in conjunction with a unit of saurus, will make short work of anything he had with a higher toughness than normal. If you can squeeze them in, take some terradons to nip down the flank and chuck rocks at shizzle, charge war machine crew, generally annoy archers or target the mages obviously :D For lolz, chuck in another stegadon with a bow to tear through ranks of skeleton warriors or tomb guard.

Remember, you've got one of the best magic defense armies their is, some say even tailored to beat DoC and VC, so against TK it should be no problem. In addition, Saurus warriors rival chaos warriors for best core infantry, and you're quick, strong and tough. Protect your flanks, prioritise targets and don't let your units become isolated. The lizardman army is a resiliant machine that can dish out a lot of pain (even if the undead can't feel it, you're opponent will :D)

Eulogy2
26-05-2009, 13:44
I just played TK last weekend in my first tournament. i completely shut down his magic phase without to much trouble. i ran a slann, with ignore 6's, EOTG with diadem of power, and a lvl 1 skink priest. i saved 2 power dice each round so i had 9 dispell dice.

TheKingInYellow
26-05-2009, 16:28
Yes it will, tomb kings specific FAQ, it's errata'd.

Q: What happens when a unit with MR is affected by the casket.
A: Magic resistance will work against the casket.

That's the 6th Edition FAQ. That version of Magic Resistance no longer exists.

There is no targeting with the Casket. Magic Resistance now requires targeting. There is no MR against the Casket.

TheKingInYellow
26-05-2009, 16:29
I just played TK last weekend in my first tournament. i completely shut down his magic phase without to much trouble. i ran a slann, with ignore 6's, EOTG with diadem of power, and a lvl 1 skink priest. i saved 2 power dice each round so i had 9 dispell dice.

The ignore 6s power doesn't work on TKs. They do not use any casting dice.

Eulogy2
26-05-2009, 18:20
even without it the possible 9 dispell dice was more than enough.

Loq-Gor
26-05-2009, 21:37
The ignore 6s power doesn't work on TKs. They do not use any casting dice.

I see no reason to believe this wouldn't work. After all the old version of Drain Magic and an item the High Elves have (or at least had anyway) called the Amulet of Purifying Flame worked against them, no reason to believe that Becalming Cogitation wouldn't work.

EvC
26-05-2009, 23:02
Well, the current version specifies power dice, which Tomb Kings do not use to cast spells.

Loq-Gor
26-05-2009, 23:53
True, but Drain magic and the Amulet of Purifying Flame both specified casting cost, which would seem to be irrelevant as TK spells are automatically cast. The only thing the dice do is determine the power level for the spell. The caveat for disrupting TK spells allows for powers, it literally says items but then lists a spell as an example, which affect the Power Level of spell rolls. This is exactly what Becalming Cogitation does.

Clegane
27-05-2009, 10:41
That's the 6th Edition FAQ. That version of Magic Resistance no longer exists.

There is no targeting with the Casket. Magic Resistance now requires targeting. There is no MR against the Casket.

Absolutely correct. Save a scroll or get ready to take your licks. You can no longer use dirt-cheap MR on one unit to save your entire army from a spell that costs the TK over 280 points and two slots to cast.

Ophidian
27-05-2009, 10:53
Thanks all for the suggestions. I'll monkey around with a few lists and see what I can come up with. It'll have to be a field-all-comers list, as he's access to (and has used before) virtually everything in the TK list. I am almost certain that I'll see a couple of scorpions, and there'll probably be a High Priest with jetpack (it's likely to be magic-heavy in general) but other than that it's all up for grabs.

I have found that the Casket castle is quite hard to crack if you don't bring fairly overwhelming force - with terror and all the rest I'm not certain one unit of Terradons is going to be up to the job. But then I might start unbalncing the list to deal with a threat that might not even be there... meh

I think I've been persuaded the best bet is to barrel-forward-and-smack-it rather than play a subtle manouvering game...

re: Razordons, I see the point about their shooting being (against this army at least) not as effective as Sallies, however they're still fairly decent in combat and are immune to fear, so I was thinking about giving them a whirl (especially as we have house comp rules which mean I can't have two units of Sallies).

I see a lot of lists that just have a lone Sallie; personally I think they just get better in big numbers - I'd always want to have three (and would settle for two if dead strapped for points). I can't see how a lone one would ever do anything to be work investing the points in - am I missing a tactical trick?

- Vampiric16, do you remember (roughly) what the composition of the TK force was? With the ones I've faced in the past if I tried to play defensive I think he'd whittle me down quicker than I could do him.

- re: Cogitation, I had interpreted from the description in the TK book that this discipline would be effective against incantations. But I imagine we'll reach a house decision on that before the game.

One final thought (not really specific to this match at all) - does anyone else think the LM magic item selection is really uninspiring? Loads of one use items, tons of bearer restrictions and nothing (bar the BoR) that really leaps of the page as wow-factor...

Anyway, thanks again for all the thoughts!

EvC
27-05-2009, 11:34
True, but Drain magic and the Amulet of Purifying Flame both specified casting cost, which would seem to be irrelevant as TK spells are automatically cast.

Yeah, but they still have a casting cost, determined by whatever you roll to cast the spell.


The only thing the dice do is determine the power level for the spell.

Well, the casting cost, as noted...


The caveat for disrupting TK spells allows for powers, it literally says items but then lists a spell as an example, which affect the Power Level of spell rolls. This is exactly what Becalming Cogitation does.

Becalming Cogitation doesn't really affect the power level/ casting value of spells, it just makes power dice that roll 6s be discarded. Exactly what it says. Whether you can interpret the wording to mean that it does work with TK is another matter of course, but it seems that every new book has a crazy anti-magic ability, but they never seem to work against Tomb Kings (Sundering, Hotek, Black Tongue, Infernal Puppet, etc), so I expect this won't work either.

Not that it matter hugely of course, seeing as it only affects one wizard, and TKs power comes from the relentless combined magic phase.

Nightsword
27-05-2009, 15:15
especially as we have house comp rules which mean I can't have two units of Sallies

Wtf? Why? It's in the *******' army book, it can happen... I trust the TK player can only have one scorpion then? :rolleyes: Ridiculous...

As for sallies, don't take one, take several and bathe his infantry blocks in fire.

Don't be frightened of his army because you will lose with that mentality. Tk are more than beatable with lizardsmen this shouldn't even be up for debate.

Some of the lizzie items are "uninspired" yes, but I think the weapons and armour are good/ok respectively. The one use thing is a pain thought, but used wiseable they can make a difference.

Ophidian
27-05-2009, 15:34
Sorry, that did sound a bit odd - it's not a restriction on Salamanders themselves, it's no repeated rare slots, no more than 2 of any given Special choice (so he's restricted to two scorpions at least...)

Clegane
27-05-2009, 16:31
Wtf? Why? It's in the *******' army book, it can happen... I trust the TK player can only have one scorpion then? :rolleyes: Ridiculous...



Why would you give a damn one way or the other what house rules this guy plays with? *boggle*
Its not like you're playing in his basement.

Loq-Gor
27-05-2009, 23:13
Yeah, but they still have a casting cost, determined by whatever you roll to cast the spell.


The dice determine the power level, as a bound spell, not a casting cost. Casting cost is what any other army has to meet to successfully cast a spell. Power level determines what the opponent has to roll to defeat the spell.


Becalming Cogitation doesn't really affect the power level/ casting value of spells, it just makes power dice that roll 6s be discarded.

The argument I was making is that these two things, affecting the power level and forcing the wizard to discard certain dice, are the same thing. After all this is exactly what Drain magic used to do.


Not that it matter hugely of course, seeing as it only affects one wizard, and TKs power comes from the relentless combined magic phase.

This I certainly agree with, and since my most common opponent is VC it's also why I don't use it. But despite the ineffectiveness of other methods (which at least three of those listed only have an impact on failed spells which TK don't do) I still say this works. Like I said its exactly the same as the old version of drain magic with two caveats, Drain Magic was a spell and had variable levels. The only thing that makes me think there is a chance this won't work is where the dice are specifically referenced as not being power dice and where Becalming Cogitation references discarding power dice.

But you are right that it only affecting a single wizard limits the value of this spell, and like I implied I probably wouldn't use it. I will agree to disagree, and I would just dice it with an opponent anyway, and we will see when the FAQ comes out.

jax40kplyr1
28-05-2009, 14:01
Watch out for the 2 Screaming skull catapult lists though - those are a killer for LM. Especially if your running stegs - considering that with incantations he can put out 4 shots a turn (or count his misfires as a "turn" so he can fire them again in the shooting phase). First turn of the last game I played against TK, the first catapult landed squarely on my EOTG. Needless to say, all skink crew and priest dead (only need 2's to wound, no AS) and 3 wounds put on the steg. Not a fun day.
If your going Slann heavy, you should do well in your magic phase, but his can be pretty nasty. Of course, combining the Slann with a Bane Head and nominating the Lich High Priest (sitting up on a hill with the Casket to give him line of sight) - whew - I know what I'm aiming for with Lore of Fire.

Spirit
29-05-2009, 02:18
Watch out for the 2 Screaming skull catapult lists though - those are a killer for LM. Especially if your running stegs - considering that with incantations he can put out 4 shots a turn (or count his misfires as a "turn" so he can fire them again in the shooting phase). First turn of the last game I played against TK, the first catapult landed squarely on my EOTG. Needless to say, all skink crew and priest dead (only need 2's to wound, no AS) and 3 wounds put on the steg. Not a fun day.
If your going Slann heavy, you should do well in your magic phase, but his can be pretty nasty. Of course, combining the Slann with a Bane Head and nominating the Lich High Priest (sitting up on a hill with the Casket to give him line of sight) - whew - I know what I'm aiming for with Lore of Fire.

This is why we buy the charm of itzl.

Nightsword
29-05-2009, 14:28
Sorry, that did sound a bit odd - it's not a restriction on Salamanders themselves, it's no repeated rare slots, no more than 2 of any given Special choice (so he's restricted to two scorpions at least...)

Ahh, I see. Lucky you can take 3 sallies per rare choice then.

Sorry if I sounded a little touchy, bad day... which brings me on to this guy:


Why would you give a damn one way or the other what house rules this guy plays with? *boggle*
Its not like you're playing in his basement.

The next answer in the sequence is "what do you care?" but never one to uphold tradition, I questioned it because restricting salamanders seemed a little OTT. They are hardly broken are they? I just wanted to know the reasoning behind the restriction that was all. And now we know that all their rare choices are restricted, not just the salamanders. Perhaps I did it a little aggresively, but nevermind eh?