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siphon101
22-05-2009, 16:39
Hi all, had an unusual situation last night, that we weren't sure how to resolve, hoping someone can help.

I was playing Vampire Counts against Mortals of Chaos. My opponent had frenzied knights. First turn I flew up some fell bats, in order to frenzy bait the knights. Two bats fell within the charge range of the knights (no other units were in range) with 3 of the 5 bats falling just outside. The arrangement looked something like this:

kkkkk


_____F(a)

____F(b)

k are the knights, F(a) is fellbat A and F(b) is fellbat B. Both bats were in charge range of the knights, and both were in the SAME unit. The rest of the bats aren't represented as they're irrelevant. Now, here was where it got...weird.

The knights, as a result of frenzy, were forced to charge. There was no other unit in range, so they had to charge the bats. Within the unit of bats, both A and B were within their charge range. Fell Bat a, the closest one to them, was not directly in front of it, forcing the knights to wheel if they were to make contact with it. Fell Bat b was directly in front of them, meaning they could move straight forward, avoid Bat a, and contact Bat b without having to wheel.

He argued that because both bats were in charge range, and were skirmishers, he could elect to align his knights against ANY model in the skirmishing unit. Thus he could elect to advance them straight forward (and towards our line), and contact Bat b (which was directly in front of them).

We argued that they had to move towards the CLOSEST model in the skirmishing unit, meaning bat A (and yes, the distance the knights would move, even with the wheel, would still be less to contact A than it would to advance straight to hit B). And since they had to wheel to reach it, they would contact it at an angle.

This mattered a great deal, because if he was able to elect to choose to charge any model of the unit in range, then he could move forward, utterly decimate the bats, and overrun straight into our line (and my general). if he had to charge at an angle, he'd continue to ovverrun at an angle, and directly in front of my own frenzied knights, who would then proceed to tear them to shreds on my next turn.

So great rules wizards of warseer...which is it? When you charge a skirmishing unit, with multiple models in that unit in range, must you align with the one that requires you to move the least distance, or any one?

Chipacabra
22-05-2009, 17:19
You must charge the closest skirmisher. Because the skirmishers align to the chargers instead of vice versa, the charger can wheel any amount that still gets him in contact with the closest model, so he's not completely locked into a single direction, but making enemy units charge in the wrong direction is one of the things that skirmishers are for.

siphon101
22-05-2009, 17:21
You must charge the closest skirmisher. Because the skirmishers align to the chargers instead of vice versa, the charger can wheel any amount that still gets him in contact with the closest model, so he's not completely locked into a single direction, but making enemy units charge in the wrong direction is one of the things that skirmishers are for.

OK, so they must charge the closest, but they can wheel in any degree that allows them to contact it, in any degree? Fair enough.

jaxom
22-05-2009, 18:16
Ok, so I am going to dig this hole a bit deeper...

Did your bats stand for the charge or not? I assume that you would flee with the bats hoping for them to rally and bait again in a later turn but I can see trying to tar-pit for a few turns if you had enough wounds to hold up for more than 2 rounds of combat...

As I recall it, if you fled then his center must pursue directly along the line to the closest model (forcing him to wheel even more). Can anyone confirm this? Am I just misinterpreting the diagram in the FAQ?

siphon101
22-05-2009, 18:37
Ok, so I am going to dig this hole a bit deeper...

Did your bats stand for the charge or not? I assume that you would flee with the bats hoping for them to rally and bait again in a later turn but I can see trying to tar-pit for a few turns if you had enough wounds to hold up for more than 2 rounds of combat...

As I recall it, if you fled then his center must pursue directly along the line to the closest model (forcing him to wheel even more). Can anyone confirm this? Am I just misinterpreting the diagram in the FAQ?

my bats, along with everything else in the vampire count army, are Immune to Psychology, and utterly unable to do anything other than stand and take it.

I had no intention of the bats to live, and was under no illusion of that possibility, I fully intended them to die mercilessly, and force the frenzied knights, which MUST overrun (because they're frenzied) to run right in the path of my blood knights, who would then, on my turn, charge them in the flank and wreck them (incidentally, it worked).

VC suffers when it comes to frenzy baiting in that they can't simply run away, rally, re-bait, repeat, and cause the frenzied units to run forever in circles. Frenzy baiting with ItP armies requires a little more...finess, making sure the frenzied unit not only charges, but charges something they will kill, and at the right angle to get them in line for an effective counter charge on your next turn. Being unable to flee as a charge response means you accept that your bats (or wolves, or summoned zombies) will almost certainly bite it. That's kinda the goal, to then force an overrun into your path.

jaxom
22-05-2009, 20:06
Gah. I keep forgetting that ItP can't flee. Makes total sense now.