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Petay1985
23-05-2009, 16:13
As the more perceptive amongst you may have realised i am an avid Red Scorpions player ;) and i am doing my best to interpret the Chapter as best i can in terms of tactics and background.

Firstly 'Pride in their Colours' so loud colour scheme, banners, etc... no scouts in camo gear, etc...

The chapter has apothecaries in the tactical squads and i believe the phrase is 'purity above all'
The chapter undergoes extensive genetic screening, geneseed testing, etc...

I am conflicted as to whether the chapter would have Librarians or not? Psykers in some fluff, if i am correct is considered to be less than pure.

So in the context of the available background (Imperial Armour 4 Anphelion Project and Imperial Armour 6 Seige of Vraks part 2) any thoughts as to whether you would take Librarians in your Red Scorpions Army?

please vote and explain reasoning, many thanks in advance!!

Urath
23-05-2009, 16:38
Well, considering Librarians are technically mutants I suppose the Red Scorpions would view them as something less than say, an "average" Battle Brother.

But, on the other hand, Legions during the Great Crusade didn't trust Librarians, but still uttilised them.

I believe a quote of Culln (?) says something against Ogryns, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't fight with/to protect them if he were ordered.

The Red Scorpions may barely tolerate abhumans and mutants outside of their chapter, due to orders and loyalty. But I seriously doubt they'd deploy Librarians in their own chapter where they have complete controll.

Vaulkhar
23-05-2009, 22:24
The only deviation the Red Scorpions have from the Codex in IA4 is the use of Apothecaries in Tactical squads. I'd assume that they had Librarians but that they were regarded with a certain amount of distaste.

As a side note, IA4 also notes that the Scorpies will refuse to fight alongside abhumans.

Petay1985
24-05-2009, 08:06
Not quite true: Imperial armour 4 also prohibits the use of the 'infltrate and scout' special rules.

Phenski
24-05-2009, 08:18
I dont think a mutant would make it past their neophyte phase with out being noticed, and then cleansed... :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

Chaos and Evil
24-05-2009, 11:22
A Red Scorpions Librarian appears in Imperial Armour VI, Vracks Volume 2.

Cpt_Baughan
24-05-2009, 11:33
I am very critical about the prevalent use of Liberians or psykers in general in a Space Marines chapter, unless the player behind them would describe the chapter itself as being well less than scrupulous and a little bit dodgy, if not sinister.

After all are Liberians not the result of genetic mutation of the gene seed? And are such practices not widely regarded as Sorcery such was degreed by the Emperor?

A moderate codex chapter may very well make use of such mutations, the end justifying the means but that does not mean Liberians would be treated with anything else but mistrust and suspicions and be closely monitored.

I therefore believe that Chapters that would describe themselves are being pure in gene seed and following of the Emperors teachings would not allow such practices full stop, look at the example set by the Black Templers. I very much believe the back story of the Red Scorpions their fluff, mottos etc would very firmly put them in this camp.

Let us reflect on the most notorious of Liberians using Marines who used psychic powers in the name of the Emperor and in the service of the Imperium the Thousand Sons, didn’t work out to well for them now did it!

Urath
24-05-2009, 11:47
That was because of the outright prejudice against Magnus and his Legion. While they were ultimately manipulated by Tzeentch, if the Emperor and Magnus' Brother Primarchs weren't so critical in his use of sorcery and psychic powers the Heresy could have been stopped earlier and the loyalists would have had an extra legion: Magnus'.

Petay1985
24-05-2009, 11:50
A Red Scorpions Librarian appears in Imperial Armour VI, Vracks Volume 2.


Indeed he does, this is part of my contemplation as to how can the Red Scorpions fluff be interpreted.

Even with the appearence of a librarion on Vraks, i have entertained the opinion that Red Scorpions should perhapse not have Librarians in their ranks.
Yet as is clear from my first post i am undecided on how i will interpret the fluff of the Red Scorpions in regard to the presence of Librarians.

Cpt_Baughan
24-05-2009, 12:05
That was because of the outright prejudice against Magnus and his Legion. While they were ultimately manipulated by Tzeentch, if the Emperor and Magnus' Brother Primarchs weren't so critical in his use of sorcery and psychic powers the Heresy could have been stopped earlier and the loyalists would have had an extra legion: Magnus'.

Whilst it is true to say that the heresy would have been stopped ealier by the use of physic powers among the thousand sons if its where not for the outright prejudice against Magnus and his Legion this does not change one simple fact.

The Emperor band it! And reprimanded Magnus for the use of Sorcery on more than one occasion. Whether rightly or wrongly - that is an irrelevance, he is the Emperor and Legions which would wish to count themselves as pure and follow the teachings of the Emperor down to the letter would in my opinion not use Liberians.

Urath
24-05-2009, 16:04
Are you saying all Chapters that use Librarians in the 41st Millenium are impure traitors? ;)

Vaulkhar
24-05-2009, 16:25
However, the decree of the Emperor as laid down at Nikaea was that controlled, trained and sanctioned psionics were permitted. It was untrained, uncontrolled sorcery that was banned, for such is the domain of the Ruinous Powers.

Cpt_Baughan
24-05-2009, 16:36
I'm not at all saying that a force which utilises Liberians and psykers in general are impure or traitors of course the Imperium could not function without them.

But on a army level I’m more saying that having Liberians strolling around on the battle field dishing out vortexs of doom or toasting fools with the avenger has crossed into the realms of what could be very very easily be interoperated as impure and therefore do not believe the Red Scorpions would use them.

Urath
24-05-2009, 16:44
They're using their powers to destroy the enemies of the Imperium?

Hell, the Emperor created a warp storm to destroy Vandire's fleet.

Leftenant Gashrog
24-05-2009, 16:52
The Red Scorpions are noted as being single minded and devout.. in adherence to the Codex Astartes. Irrespective of whether the Emperor banned their use in pre-history or not - the Codex Astartes sanctions their use.

Cpt_Baughan
24-05-2009, 16:53
We are kind of taking this discussion on 2 different threads here Urath, so to keep this thread on track of should Red Scorpions use Liberians all I’ll say that in my opinion their are 2 factors why they shouldn't 1. Purity of gene seed, Liberians have a genetic mutation and 2. whether rightly or wrongly the Emperor band such practices as Sorcery whether that is hypercritical or not is a different question entirely and I believe the Red Scorpions would follow the principles down to the letter.

I do of course admit the second point is more open to personal opinion that the first.

Cpt_Baughan
24-05-2009, 17:12
The Red Scorpions are noted as being single minded and devout.. in adherence to the Codex Astartes. Irrespective of whether the Emperor banned their use in pre-history or not - the Codex Astartes sanctions their use.

And would we not say that practices such as a ban on infiltrating and scouting as well as massive use of apothecary instead of sergeants is a deviation on the codex astartes?

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-05-2009, 19:29
After all are Liberians not the result of genetic mutation of the gene seed? And are such practices not widely regarded as Sorcery such was degreed by the Emperor?


Nope, Libarians are mostly from recruits with psychic potentials. You don't just randomly mutate into a Libarian. They are no more mutants than the ordinary battle brothers.

And no, Libarians are not regarded as sorcery. It's correct that the Thousand Sons was condemmed for using sorcery and it was banned, but sorcery isn't identical with psychic powers. It's specific ways and methods of invoking power(for instance invoking other powers to perform some service or another) and there are plenty of psychers throughout the Imperium without being sorceres.

Unless the Scorpions have something that specifically says they don't like Psychers I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have them same as normal marines. Your average chapter probably doesn't have more than a handful of Libarians anyway.

Cpt_Baughan
24-05-2009, 19:40
Nope, Libarians are mostly from recruits with psychic potentials. You don't just randomly mutate into a Libarian. They are no more mutants than the ordinary battle brothers.

And no, Libarians are not regarded as sorcery. It's correct that the Thousand Sons was condemmed for using sorcery and it was banned, but sorcery isn't identical with psychic powers. It's specific ways and methods of invoking power(for instance invoking other powers to perform some service or another) and there are plenty of psychers throughout the Imperium without being sorceres.

Unless the Scorpions have something that specifically says they don't like Psychers I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have them same as normal marines. Your average chapter probably doesn't have more than a handful of Libarians anyway.

Swing and a miss

Direct quote from the Space Marines codex page 56 Librarians - "Apothecaries rigorously screen potential recruits for any sign of genetic deviation, but not all mutation is physical. Phychic talent is a mutation too, and is at once the most dangerous and the most useful"

Can’t get a more definitive quote than that from a better source to back up my argument, it is of course still completely open for interpretation and personal opinion no real right or wrong answers its just that no matter how you look at it Librarians clearly could never be described as 100% pure at least from a gene seed point of view.

09Project
24-05-2009, 19:48
After all are Liberians not the result of genetic mutation of the gene seed?

At no point are Librarians a result of mutated gene seed. They already have the psycher potential and those with this potential are tested hard before and after the process of becoming a space marine begins.

Cpt_Baughan
24-05-2009, 20:08
I think that facts such of the genetic mutation being present before becoming a marine is not hugely relevant to this debate, opinions such as ones Iíve voiced could be right or wrong they are opinions after all and not above scrutiny, I do not think any rational personal however could argue with some simple facts and give me this as far as anything could be considered a fact.

"Apothecaries rigorously screen potential recruits for any sign of genetic deviation, but not all mutation is physical. Phychic talent is a mutation too, and is at once the most dangerous and the most useful"

Phychic talent is a mutation too! This clearly says mutation to me and whether it is that Red Scorpions would weed the psychic mutation out of their gene seed or avoid using someone with this phychic potential because it is a mutation in a similar way they do not agree with Ogryns and Ratlings is an irrelevance it is still mutation ( now for the opinion part) and because of this I believe Red Scorpions would not use Librarians but Iím clearly in the minority :)

projectkmo
24-05-2009, 22:44
I voted
"Yes, less than other codex chapters"

As they are clearly used by the RS according to IA6. Now, based on the RS feelings towards xenos, and basically anything impure....I would surmise that Librarian's in the RS are tolerated due to their abilities. I would imagine a Librarian in the RS would have few close friends and would likely only be shown some appreciation when they save the day. Otherwise I would imagine them to lead a lonely life.

As for playing games, Librarians can bring some nice abilities to the table. If IA6 says they exist then I would at least make one Librarian model for use in games. It's really up to you and your beliefs at this point. IA6 makes it pretty clear they are used....but do they fit into your vision of the RS and how you want to represent the RS on the table.

I for one got a Terminator Librarian to dress up for my RS army.

Petay1985
25-05-2009, 07:51
In my opinion i interpret psychic abilites as a mutation, and it is beyond disbute that the Red Scorpions despise mutation. However due to the requirement in the fictional 40k to use psykers (astropaths, etc..) i am torn as to whether i feel that the Red Scorpions would perhaps retain a small librarian contingent, or outlaw their use. i do not dispute that they have used them in the past (imperial armour 6) and i may decide on using one in the future.

thank you all for putting your pennies worth to this debate, i feel we are fleshing this out quite nicely. please continue to add your votes and most importantly your opinions.

thanks fellas.

09Project
25-05-2009, 11:05
Ok the psycher gene is a mutation, but it a human mutation, not a gene-seed mutation which Cpt_Baughan at least appeared to suggest.

The mutant psychers are largely seen by many bodies as 'impure'. But to an extent all work with them. Try navigating the warp without one for example.

So there is good precedent for even the most hardline chapters to use psychers in some form, though not necessarily Librarians.

Thing is we do have Red Scorpian Librarians in the fluff, now I personally would probably guess they have lower than average numbers maybe, but can't see any reason they would have purged all the Librarians that have been with them. I think if you are taking on the Red Scorpians but using an alternative basis in 'no librarians at all' you will have to think carefully as to why this happened and how it happened. Which is a good thing for the story of your army, just I feel that it would need some explaining as you have chosen to use a 'known' chapter as opposed a player created one.

I suppose you could ofcourse go for the story of a hardline even for Red Scorpians commander who chooses to scorn the use of the Librarians who are still there with the rest of the chapter but not with his company.

Petay1985
25-05-2009, 11:16
Thing is we do have Red Scorpian Librarians in the fluff, now I personally would probably guess they have lower than average numbers maybe, but can't see any reason they would have purged all the Librarians that have been with them. I think if you are taking on the Red Scorpians but using an alternative basis in 'no librarians at all' you will have to think carefully as to why this happened and how it happened. Which is a good thing for the story of your army, just I feel that it would need some explaining as you have chosen to use a 'known' chapter as opposed a player created one.

I suppose you could ofcourse go for the story of a hardline even for Red Scorpians commander who chooses to scorn the use of the Librarians who are still there with the rest of the chapter but not with his company.

i am not intending to alter my armies' background i want to use Red Scorpions as they are. I simply posed the question as the use of psykers in my opinion seemed a contradiction on the purity fluff.
i am not disputing their presence, i was simply after an opinion on where people think that in the context of hating mutants the red scorpions would use librarians or not? or whether they would but to a lesser extent.

on a side note though, i like the idea that a company captain may refuse to work with librarians, etc, nice idea fella!!

NightrawenII
25-05-2009, 11:32
@Cpt_Baughan:

I dont know, what was written in HH series, but Council of Nikea dont banned the use of Psykers, it banned the sorcery.
There is difference between these two.

And you answer you own question in your quote.
but not all mutation is physical.
RS can have Librarians, simply because the psyker ability is something different from physical mutation and can be wieved as gift from the Emperor.

(IF the Soul Drinkers can think the spider legs are gift from Emperor, then everything is possible.:rolleyes:)

Petay1985
25-05-2009, 11:37
@Cpt_Baughan:

I dont know, what was written in HH series, but Council of Nikea dont banned the use of Psykers, it banned the sorcery.
There is difference between these two.

ok so we are saying that its the use and application of the psyker that determines their impurity, and i don't mean their motive.


And you answer you own question in your quote.
but not all mutation is physical.
RS can have Librarians, simply because the psyker ability is something different from physical mutation and can be wieved as gift from the Emperor.

i am unclear on this, i do not recall it saying that Red Scorpions specifically only hate physical mutation, i believe it just says mutation.


(IF the Soul Drinkers can think the spider legs are gift from Emperor, then everything is possible.:rolleyes:)

surely this is off track as i assume the Soul Drinkers do not claim to be a pure chapter? (this is a question as i know nothing about them, lol)

Petay1985
25-05-2009, 12:11
to clear up some things that have been said, and aimed at no one in particular:

I feel that there is potential to interpret the use of librarians as an optional part of a chapter, as they are in fact not a necessity (unlike astropaths, etc.. which clearly are essential) thus if the Red Scorpions see mutation as bad, and on the assumption that psykers are a mutation (albeit not physical) would the opt not to use librarians unless they absolutely needed to?

in my opinion they probably would opt to not use them, however as imperial armour 6 shows us they do use them, hence the opinion that perhaps they only employ a smaller number of librarians than that of other chapters.

it was this that i am trying to gauge opinion on.

Cpt_Baughan
25-05-2009, 12:15
If I have suggested that psychic power is purely the result of genetic mutation of the gene seed then that is of course incorrect and I apologies, of course even men can have psychic power as we all know. I don’t think anybody however can argue that psychic power whether good or bad, gift from the Emperor or not and at whatever level is not a mutation! And is described as such in multiple sources as far as anything could be considered a fact in this setting it is, I am however not saying that makes it inherently good or bad in a wider context just for this discussion it is a mutation.

Talking about other chapters is irrelevant the question really is in this debate how hard line do you believe the Red Scorpion would be about this? They despise mutation in general not just physical and believe in 'purity above all' Of course they would need psychics in the grand scale of things navigation, sending messages etc even the Black Templers would use these forms of psychics that is not the question.

At the very least one Librarian appears in the Forge World story so if you wish to do a force exactly how Forge World intended it to be done debate over, there is no reason you could not include one. But seeing as your asking for peoples opinions I believe they would be too hard line to include someone with a mutation within their own ranks as a brother marine

09Project
25-05-2009, 12:16
Well seen as they in the fluff it clear they are used. As for being essential, they are in the codex astrates which ok Red Scorps don't follow absolutely, but they don't take things out they don't like, they add on top.

Librarians form a key part of the Codex Astrates, now whether they are combat deployed as often as other Librarians from other chapters is again open to personal choice, but to suggest they aren't there at all when they have fluff support?



Edit - Cpt Baughan reply

I never said it wasn't a mutation in the eyes of the Imperium, my point was merely based on the Gene-seed point. Though if I wasn't looking at it from an Imperium PoV I would still suggest it an evolution of mankind ;)

The Red Scorps are FW's babies and really I will stick to what they have in mind for them same as for GW's chapters.

Petay1985
25-05-2009, 12:58
ok gentlemen, thank you for your input, i think that some of you can agree to disagree on how you see the Red Scorpions' view on Librarians.

it is beyond dispute that there is a librarian in imperial armour 6 and it is beyond dispute that the poll shows the majority of opinion is that librarians are utilised. however the extent of their use varies.

i think that we have flogged this one to death now and it was interesting to see how people viewed the 'purity above all' and its affect on the use of psykers.

i will leave the thread open for anyone else to vote or comment. cheers fellas

NightrawenII
26-05-2009, 10:06
i am unclear on this, i do not recall it saying that Red Scorpions specifically only hate physical mutation, i believe it just says mutation.

What I said was, the psyker mutation is simple different from the physical so they CAN treat it in different way. Its similar to rasism, you hate someone because looks different, but psyker is very similar to human with only specifical "gift".


surely this is off track as i assume the Soul Drinkers do not claim to be a pure chapter? (this is a question as i know nothing about them, lol)

They are Traitor Marines, who arent traitors and believe the spider legs are blessing from Emperor.

Col. Dash
26-05-2009, 13:06
My Red Scorp company does use a Librarian, think about it, they cant be totally anti-psyker, they wouldnt get very far without Navigators and astropaths.. In addition as mine is based on the older Red Scorps and not the current "Cullin Hates Camo" idea, mine does have a single unit of scouts with camo cloaks. I do limit myself to one unit however due to the fluff saying they do not have alot of recruits since their requirements are so stringent.

Petay1985
26-05-2009, 13:58
What I said was, the psyker mutation is simple different from the physical so they CAN treat it in different way. Its similar to rasism, you hate someone because looks different, but psyker is very similar to human with only specifical "gift".

Right got ya! apologies for confusion.


They are Traitor Marines, who arent traitors and believe the spider legs are blessing from Emperor.

these guy's sound pretty nuts! never seena anything on them before!


My Red Scorp company does use a Librarian, think about it, they cant be totally anti-psyker, they wouldnt get very far without Navigators and astropaths...

i think you need to read the whole thread friend, i think after the lengthy debate it is fair to say we all agree that psykers such as navigators are a necessity and thus are obviously tolerated. The question is to whether you think librarian should (not are or are not) tolerated by the red scorpions, as they are not a necessity and can (opinion obviously) be seen as a mutation, thus the 'purity above all' could be interpreted to exculde their use.

Col. Dash
26-05-2009, 14:08
Let me specify. Psykers are tools and thus yes, with the obvious combat multiplier that they add would be tolerated. I think since they are brought up as Red Scorps then they would be tolerated even more than the others since they are actually a part of the chapter as opposed to just attachments like the others.

Petay1985
27-05-2009, 08:40
cheers for the input gents, a very interesting debate.

thread closed...