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View Full Version : How far can you push "counts-as" if interested in Tourney play?



Treadhead_1st
23-05-2009, 18:02
I'm working on a Guard army that I hope to take to Gamesday and perhaps Grand Tournament in a year or two (heading to Uni in Birmingham and used to be at uni, thus have friends, in Nottingham).

Now, I want to equip my Officers with Bolters, but I find that the Space Marine ones are too large to be sensible (even with 40K "heroic" scale guns) on normal humans (particularly those as slender as Warrior Woman). Couple this with issues getting hold of the old Scout Biker bolters and I'm looking at another way. Would I be able to get away with giving them Autoguns (the only Autoguns in the army) and saying they're Autoguns with explosive ammunition [mentioned in Gaunt's Ghosts books] that "counts-as" bolters?

Also, I have a couple of miniatures from independant sculptors (3 or 4 single infantry in a force of 80+ infantry and 6 tanks) - would this cause any issues at an official GW event?

I know locally most people don't have a problem with this, but I'm just wondering for the stricter environment that is the GT and other GW-sanctioned events.

Duke Georgal
23-05-2009, 18:09
Hmmm...

1) Counting one weapon as another when it obviously is something different that has its own rules (did that make any sense?) is not "counts as", that is proxying. Proxying is not allowed at any event, GW or independent, that insists on WYSIWYG. Trying the explosive ammunition logic might get a few laughs, but that will probably be all.

2) In the US, GW has relaxed a little bit on the idea that eveything must be 100% GW. I do not know what an official ratio might be, but I have seen more than a few obviously non-GW figures in GW events. Send a photo and ask first to avoid any problems.

Treadhead_1st
23-05-2009, 18:45
There are no in-game rules for Autoguns afaik, they left with 3rd Edition, which is why I thought they'd be ok.

Clang
23-05-2009, 19:49
To avoid squeals of outrage from pedants, combine bits from several weapons to make a new 'counts as' bolter. Making it as bolterish as possible would be good. And if you'll need several, try to make them all pretty much identical.

Try chopping up a bolter, trim the bits and reassemble them to make a new smaller version. Or, consider biggerising a bolt pistol by adding some bits - fluffwise it's a new officer-only long-range bolt pistol which counts as a bolter.

Orkeosaurus
23-05-2009, 19:59
Honestly, I'd be pretty surprised if anyone cared that a few models in your army had one small-arm switched out for a slightly more powerful small-arm. It's not like you're counting it as a grenade launcher. If someone was really upset about it you could just use the lasgun/shotgun rules instead.

As for the non-GW models, I suppose it mostly comes down to whether or not they're something that stands out as not being a GW sculpt. If it fits in with the rest of your army, it's probably a non-issue. If they're of a different scale or something someone might question the reason for them being there.

Griefbringer
23-05-2009, 20:17
What about the bolt guns in the new IG command sprues? Those should look OK on guardsmen, since they are designed for that.

You might not want to purchase multiple boxes of them (since it comes with just one bolt gun) but perhaps you could check with other guard players around if they have spare ones? Alternatively, check with some of the bitz retailers that have split some of these sprues into individual components.

One option would be to also look for the plastic bolters from the 2nd edition days, those were smaller than the current marine bolters. Some old-timers might still have spare ones in their bits box.

Cool_Mint
23-05-2009, 20:52
The guns on the old 1980's plastic beakies look okay if you remove the horrible looking ammo clip. I'm not sure what the rules are if the clip is removed but it still looks like a bolter.

Edit*

Being bored I just experimented ripping the arm off to get a bolter (pliers and a craft knife) - took about 10 minutes but it sort of worked. The old beaky sprues came with extra bolters though.

Treadhead_1st
26-05-2009, 01:14
Hmm, I've some of those bolters somewhere.

Here's another one:

Would you count a 4x4 vehicle, made from a GW Speeder, with an autogun in the front seat and a heavy bolter/twin-grenade launcher on the back as a Scout Sentinel with Multi-Laser/Missile Launcher (respectively), flufferising the extra firepower (Str6vsStr5 on Laser vs Bolter, and ST8 vs Str6 on the Missile/Grenade) as being provided by both guns firing in unison?

I know Owen Reese (sp?) used a similar concept for his drop-troopers, but I think they were counts-as Chimeras using a 6-wheeler template, which is a slightly different situation.

Clang
26-05-2009, 06:41
That's starting to get real messy, even for casual games - your opponent is supposed to remember that one heavy bolter counts as a heavy bolter but another heavy bolter counts as something else?

Personally I'd be carefully ripping off those weapons and putting on some replacements that better match what they count as (or even better, magnetise them so you can swap weapons from game to game).

Or if just for a one-off game, write 'Scout Sentinel with Multi-Laser/Missile Launcher' on a bit of paper and put it on the model

Treadhead_1st
26-05-2009, 14:21
Hmm, good point. I could probably rig something up with a mutli-laser as the rear weapon, and have the forwards autogun just for looks (thereby having the correct weapon on the back).

But would a 4x4 vehicle be acceptable as a Sentinel counts-as (with correct weapons)?

Laser guided fanatic
26-05-2009, 14:24
I was being stupid when i made this post.

Nostro
26-05-2009, 20:24
I'd say:
autoguns = bolters
4x4 = sentinel
are ok.

Until recently, guardsmen were considered being able to be equipped with autoguns instead of lasguns with the same profile, so that may rise an issue but it's really been long since GW produced autoguns on its minis. That shoul be fine.

For the armament of the 4x4 sentinel, as for if any count-as will fly with tournament organisers, it boils down to the possibilities of confusion: "powered-up" heavy bolters would get people confused. One heavy bolter is a heavy bolter, another is not: here is the problem. People will tend to fprget, they shouldn't have to make the effort all game.

It's easy to remember that an autogun is a bolter if every autogun is a bolter and there is no regular bolter in your army. It's easy to remember that a 4x4 is a sentinel because there is no 4x4 in the guard list, and if you have to think of what it could be you'd naturally think it's a sentinel, it would look too small and lightly armoured to be a regular tank, even a chimera.

Clang
27-05-2009, 05:11
As there is no IG 4x4 vehicle which your counts-as Sentinel could be confused with, I don't think too many players would be concerned by it being a 4x4 vehicle.

Some may however grizzle about the height, as your vehicle will be rather shorter than a normal Sentinel and thus able to hide behind lower terrain (although also unable to see over some taller terrain, it vaguely cancels out). Hmm, perhaps mount your vehicle on a tall terrain-covered base to bring it up to the height of a Sentinel? Wouldn't be totally silly for such a vehicle to be clambering over some big rocks anyway...