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Griffery
25-05-2009, 21:14
I have just recently purchased a Skaven book and some guys and I am planning on playing my friend who will be using Vampire Counts. It will be 3500 points. I have never used or fought Skaven before so I do not know how certain units will perform. Any advice?

Malorian
25-05-2009, 21:17
That a pretty quick learning curve you're going to need... first game is with 3500 and against vamps? ouch...

Well take lots of magic and lots of shooting. Your magical shooting will rip apart etheral units and expensive ones like knights and grave guard.

Assassins will be good for killing characters.

Those skimishing units that pop up out of no where (sorry, don't know the name) will be good for taking out bunkers.


Summary: Magic and shoot him to death while stalling him with slaves and killing his vampires with assassins.

ICLRK625
25-05-2009, 21:26
The Warp Lightning Cannon is going to be the game winner here, as he has no way to hide his Vampire Lord (except inside a unit of course). Since he can't keep his vampire lord alone (unless he wants it to be a smoldering pile of warp ash), he'll likely hide it inside a large unit and hang out in back. Skaven Shooting and magic are extremely destructive, so I'd go with Malorian and suggest shooting into whatever unit he's hiding his lord in, and keep him tied up with Slaves (your static should match his, so you may be able to hold so long as you take units big enough to withstand fear).

Griffery
25-05-2009, 22:04
Yeah I was reading about the assassins and I was wondering if there is any way to give them killing blow like the DE assassins?

Erie Ed
26-05-2009, 00:08
skaven assassins are not worth their points. You are better off loading up on clanrat warrior units (at least 30 models per unit for this 3500 game) same thing with skaven slaves load up on those. Jezzails lot's of jezzails I recommend about 3 - 4 units of 5. Of course the WLC is always good. Lots of warlock engineers are good too. With that you have to hope you kill the general and if you can do that the game should be in the bag.

Griffery
26-05-2009, 00:16
Sorry for all of these questions but does a WLC automatically hit all of the units in its line, or do I need to roll a D6 on a 4+ to see if it even hits?

Clegane
26-05-2009, 04:14
Sorry for all of these questions but does a WLC automatically hit all of the units in its line, or do I need to roll a D6 on a 4+ to see if it even hits?

It automatically hits anything that its line of fire crosses. No need to roll for partials, though protected characters will still get Look Out Sir! rolls.

fubukii
26-05-2009, 11:35
unless the enemy takes a tame vc list, or isnt that good of a player you will start the game at a HUGE disadvantage and will be lucky to pull off a minor win, probably a loss.

Problems:
- skaven win through flanks and static cr. Then run down enemy troops for vp. Vc do not run, and even if you flank and static cr them, they only take a couple of wounds (which will be invocationed back next turn) for example 20 skels flanked by 25 clanrats, you would be at 7 cr to his 1, after crumble he will be down to13 models, then on his turn he will be back up to 30 then you get flanked and run.
- vc normally have 15+ pd most skaven armies cant handle that kind of magic phase.
- Skaven are better at killing High point cost models, you will be great at killing wraiths/knights but suffer vs skls with regen or gg.
- vampire characters are normally better then our own. A warlord with a weeping blade can kill his characters though, and if you can kill them off quickly thats how you will win the game.

bizzar6311
26-05-2009, 12:24
I'd go with the typical SAD army. In 2250 I know you can run this

Grey seer
3x warplock engineers

4x 20 clanrats ratling gun

4x 10 jezzals

2x warplighting cannons

With slaves and night runners

So just expand upon this to get to 3500 and it will be deadly.

fubukii
26-05-2009, 12:44
except 1 casting of winds of undeath cripples your entire army.

Sad isnt bad, but you will need more thne 20 clanrats per unit. you wll need slaves. Jezzails arent good vs undead troops minus knights/vargulfs/ other otherpointed models (wraiths). you will want max slaves possible.

bizzar6311
26-05-2009, 13:15
I think sad would work very well. Say you have 40 jezzals and 2 warp lightning cannons. If you win turn one between magic / shooting you can eliminate one or more units before he has a chance to raise them. Or let's say you have a hill. Focus fire on the vampires bunker unit is most likely going to destroy the bunker and the vampire or lessen its numbers where the vampire player will have to use his invos to restore the bunker leaving his other units at minimal size. Its all about focus fire when playing against vampire counts. I've played vamps for 12 years I've had it done to me. When you do something do it well and in the case of a skaven sad army the shooting is more then a vampire player can deal with.

Ps. Sorry if the post is sloppy I'm writing it on my blackberry.

fubukii
26-05-2009, 13:57
several problems, i think theres only 5 people in the world who actually own 40 jezzails ( me being one of them)
- 40 jezzails takes up alot of space, they will not all be able to shoot the same unit.
- even if they could, it would only do about 10 wounds before regeneration at long range.
- then you are leaving all his support units such as wolves and bats get to your line, thus killing your jezzails.

jezzails are great by all means but they are not effective at killing infantry. thy are meant to kill monsters and knights.

bizzar6311
26-05-2009, 15:45
I'm not saying to fire at the regen unit I'm saying to fire at the 10-15 infantry blocks and support units. You get rid of those and vamps are a push over. I good vc army relies on everything working together. You disrupt the syriges and the game is yours.

DoomBringer
26-05-2009, 19:08
If he is running a common VC list it will most likely have what these guys have been saying.

1: Large magic phase -
-Summon / Healing, with possible Wind of Death (need to look out for that the most)
2: Usually a VC will prefer skellies or ghouls, not both, so if he has a lot of skellies you will have trouble as he will have just as many numbers as you, ghouls will be a bit easier to handle through SCR.
3: If he doesnt go a horde list then you will see a lot of blood/death knights.
-Not much in the Skaven force can stand up to a blood knight charge, but not all hope is lost. You can feed the blood knights small squads of globadiers and gutter runners. Use the gutter runners as bait and that should give you 1-2 turns of free shooting on the knights, and most of the skaven shooting is meant for more heavy duty targets such at knights.

-All of your warpstone weapons count as magical hits so taking care of ethereal targets will be a piece of cake.

I would make sure to have a large amount of 30-40 man squads of slaves and Clan rats, If you know he will be using a horde army, load up with warpfire throwers If you are good with guess weapons, and/or rattling guns if you aren't. This will pressure his magic phase because he will have to divert more power dice to re-summoning all the men you are killing.

I would take 2 squads of Jezzails, 5-7 in size to take out any large targets and/or knights, if you know he will have lots of knights you may want to bring more.

I would also include a few gutter runner screens and follow them around with a few globadiers to hunt/bait those knights, I find that they can keep a unit of blood knights out of the game for 3 or so turns and often end of killing 50% or more of the unit.

One warplightning cannon for monsters/sniping his heroes and lords. (though they will most likely all be in units)

For a lord I suggest a warlord for the extra leadership, but only if you make your squads large enough so they do not get auto broke from his units.

A Greyseer would provide huge amounts of offensive power versus a more horde type VC list, and he is just cool.

Engineers are a must for all Skaven lists imo. I usually take a good number of these as warp lightning has awesome power.

That sums up the ranged and horde power of the Skaven, which imo is where its strengths are most potent; however if you want more melee killing power you can add in some of these options.

Plague Monks are the killing machines of the skaven force, they completely wreck standard infantry with their mass of attacks, primarily best against weak, horde like units.

Censer Bearers, these guys can totally rip up any heavily armoured target such as knights or beefed up vampires. Try to get them in the flank of some knights if you can, as they are to slow to catch some knights in a charge head on.

Skaven have so many options available to them and that many more ways to go about using them, so I hope this info has helped you a little bit.

All in all I prefer a horde army with my Skaven but that is just my playstyle, remember these are all just opinions on how people play their Skaven, you choose your own style and roll with it.

As far as general tactics for Skaven Vs VC goes I would choose an assault plan and stick with it.
1:If he puts his general in a decently sized unit, but small enough for you to focus all of your magic + shooting into to it and kill his general then I would go for that, even if you fail he will have to either abandon that destroyed unit for a new one, or use a huge amount of power dice to raise it back up to full strength. Depending on how successful you are at killing/stop raising. you might be able to force him into an extremely defensive position, giving you the upper hand.

2:You could choose major threat targets and/or a flank you want to kill off and wipe entire units off the board one turn at a time, not allowing him to raise them back. I would target units like large targets, knights, smaller units of ghouls/skellies.

No matter what strategy you choose, it would be best if you tried to kill units entirely at one time as best as you can, as VC just raise everything back so easily.

Voss
26-05-2009, 19:42
warpfire throwers don't involve guessing- template starts at the model.

I'd seriously recommend not starting at 3500. I've been in this game for 5 editions, and I wouldn't play it at that points level with a new book. It be hard to convince me to play at the level at all, even with a book I was intimately familiar with- the game doesn't function well at that points level. It purely comes down to who has the giant pile of power dice and the ridiculous character combos. (A couple of books are like that at 2000, but everybody goes crazy above 3K).

fubukii
26-05-2009, 20:06
plague monks dont have posioned attacks and suck vs 4+ save models

DoomBringer
26-05-2009, 21:03
Sorry, I always mix up the extra hand wep upgrade on plague monks with poison, as I play DE a lot more than I play Skaven and often relate them to witch elves, whom do have poison :O.

Griffery
26-05-2009, 23:58
Yeah my friend and I normally play WoC vs Vamps and lately we have been playing fairly high point games so we kind of stuck with the point value and I wanted to try out Skaven.

PeG
27-05-2009, 00:47
3500 points of skaven is a huge number of models. I am assuming that you already have access to a lot of painted rats? I wouldnt recomend buying 100s of rats with a new book coming out some time during the next 6 months.

Most important tactical advice is to kill his characters when you have the possibility and make sure that you completely wipe out any unit you shoot/magic/attack. As long as there is at least one model left on the table they will get healed to full unit strenght by IoN.

Griffery
27-05-2009, 01:28
Yeah I didnt buy that many but I am also planning on using some of my WoC models. So im basically planning on lots of WLC and Jezzails. Which should I take Warpfire Throwers or Ratling Guns? Also should I have the minimum amount of clanrats that I need and then for the rest of my core units use slaves?

Kevlar
27-05-2009, 08:50
Yeah I didnt buy that many but I am also planning on using some of my WoC models. So im basically planning on lots of WLC and Jezzails. Which should I take Warpfire Throwers or Ratling Guns? Also should I have the minimum amount of clanrats that I need and then for the rest of my core units use slaves?

WFT work great against infantry blocks and multi wound models. Ratling guns are cavalry/skirmisher killers. I like to take two or three of each, but ratling guns are more dependable. They never misfire on one die, and if you roll a 1 or 2 feel free to roll again because a double 1 or 2 is only a jam I believe.

fubukii
27-05-2009, 11:48
you want 25 clanrats per unit min. you also want at least 3 units of clanrats in almost any game size.

ratling gun over WFT

Raizer
28-05-2009, 19:44
warpfire throwers don't involve guessing- template starts at the model.

I'd seriously recommend not starting at 3500. I've been in this game for 5 editions, and I wouldn't play it at that points level with a new book. It be hard to convince me to play at the level at all, even with a book I was intimately familiar with- the game doesn't function well at that points level. It purely comes down to who has the giant pile of power dice and the ridiculous character combos. (A couple of books are like that at 2000, but everybody goes crazy above 3K).

Actually, my experience is that this point value is alot of fun to play at allowing you to take all sorts of interesting army variations. I do recommend an 8x4 table though. Play it and have fun!

Spirit
29-05-2009, 02:09
Something i always have troble against with undead is censor bearers.

They dont run which takes away my fear causing advantage and are designed to kill low WS, medium T, medium armour units, which is exactly what undead are full of!

Every time i play skaven i have to target these things first because if they get into a unit of core troops (and god forbid they manage to flank it) im gonna either lose the unit, or have to pump my entire magic phase into it to keep it alive.

Another good one would be to place the fellblade vs a vampire lord, just run straight at him, if you get the charge the vampire lord is almost a guaranteed kill, that blade really scares me.