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My_Idea_Of_Fun
25-05-2009, 22:31
Maybe its just the skill of the player in my gaming group who uses them. It seems that vampire counts are just a terrible army with a few cheap tricks in the hero and leadership department. Correct me if I'm wrong but they don't take any skill, its all about raising some crappy unit like zombies or skeletons over and over.

g0ddy
25-05-2009, 22:35
Not sure what you mean here... Why are they so bad? as in they lose games?

Vampire Counts are currently one of the top armies in the game...

~ Zilla

sulla
25-05-2009, 22:57
Maybe its just the skill of the player in my gaming group who uses them. It seems that vampire counts are just a terrible army with a few cheap tricks in the hero and leadership department. Correct me if I'm wrong but they don't take any skill, its all about raising some crappy unit like zombies or skeletons over and over.Yup... sounds like it's just your player. Short of killing the general, it should be difficult to get anything better than a minor victory over a good VC general. It's probably the best defensive armiy in the game.

Griffery
25-05-2009, 23:49
Yeah.... Vamps are probably one of the best armies right now. They also do have many strategic things such as Black Coaches. Your player must either be inexperienced, or just not understand what vamps can do.

AvariceX
26-05-2009, 05:31
Vampires are one of the best armies in the game, no question. You don't give a whole lot of information about your opponent but from the context it sounds like he's falling into one of the common pitfalls that have plagued inexperienced undead/VC generals since 5th ed:

1. Pumping too many points into his characters. Vampires are some of the nastiest characters in the game, but no matter how much you boost them with they can't win the game alone.

2. Taking large blocks of units that you don't need to take large blocks of (Dire Wolves, Black Knights).

3. Relying too much on a single hammer (this is really hard to do with the new VC book even if you tried though, so I'd be impressed if this is the case). I used to do this in 5th ed with a Vamp Lord and large block of Black Knights (erm...Mounted Wights) that sucked up more than half the points in my army list, and was the only unit on the board worth its salt, and thus the only target.

4. Trying to actually kill things with zombies rather than just tarpit.

Seville
26-05-2009, 05:48
Nah, OP is right. VC is over-rated. They're not that hard. A bad player can make them bad.

Demons, on the other hand... that's an army even a bad player can't make bad.

Condottiere
26-05-2009, 05:58
Depends on who's directing them and against what they are playing - anything that can regularly neutralize magic is bound to put a cramp in the style of a VC player that relies on that.

Urgat
26-05-2009, 06:55
This doesn't belong in the tactics forum.

Nicha11
26-05-2009, 07:33
An excellent vampire general will on average beat an excellent general of any other army.

Memnos
26-05-2009, 08:04
An excellent vampire general will on average beat an excellent general of any other army.

I call shenanigans. An excellent Vampire general versus an excellent Demon general, or an excellent High Elf general, or an excellent Wood Elf general? In fact, depending on terrain I would back an excellent Wood Elf general versus an excellent general of Vampires, but probably not an excellent general of Beastmen.

Vampire Counts are a very solid army, but not the best in the game. I would state that Daemons edges it out.

Nicha11
26-05-2009, 08:54
Wood Elves find it nigh impossible to kill VC's.

(Not enough killing power or dispel power).

And I firmly believe that cheesed out VC list with an excellent general, will destroy a cheesed out demon list with an excellent general.

DC's are to vulnerable to getting bogged down, and nothing slows down a blood thirster like 15 Neheked Zombies a turn.

fubukii
26-05-2009, 11:34
i agree, that vampires are perfectly capable of taking down daemons and winning most games if played right.

W0lf
26-05-2009, 12:18
Im not so sure.

4x 5 flesh hounds and a bloodthirster is a hell of handful for vampires. As are kairous/PD spam armies.

fubukii
26-05-2009, 12:52
hounds while extreme strong, just dont have enough punch to go through must Undead blocks, especially if given block has regen (granted a thrister and hound combo charge will put a big hurt on a unit). Usually in a tournament a thrister will not have flaming, but is still a handful for vc players.

a typical list usually doesnt have 20 hounds, its normally more like 2-3 units.
but with 15+ pd you should be able to raise the wounds they do back pretty easily, then its just a matter of who dies crumbles faster :)

EvC
26-05-2009, 13:04
There are vampire lists beyond 15 power dice invospamming ones (which is pretty difficult to get on top of the Drakenhof Banner). Those of us who try and use proper armies rather than the snoozefests will still have a problem fighting Daemons, as nearly everything in the Daemon book is extremely strong whereas the only things that are too strong in the VC book are the magic and a few magic items.

fubukii
26-05-2009, 13:48
There are vampire lists beyond 15 power dice invospamming ones (which is pretty difficult to get on top of the Drakenhof Banner). Those of us who try and use proper armies rather than the snoozefests will still have a problem fighting Daemons, as nearly everything in the Daemon book is extremely strong whereas the only things that are too strong in the VC book are the magic and a few magic items.

true it is tough to get both in but ive seen it done plenty of times :(

Mercules
26-05-2009, 15:18
Wood Elves find it nigh impossible to kill VC's.

(Not enough killing power or dispel power).

I disagree. I've beaten VC with Ogres. Mind you my opponent was inexperienced with his VC but even so a Ghoul Heavy list has some great advantages against Ogres and is almost a no-brainer.

With my WoodElves Vampires are forced to stay in units or risk being shot to death. If they stick in a Bunker unit then they face the chance that I'll charge them from a flank or rear with Wardancers(away from the killer Vampire) and with Storm of Blades wipe out their bunker unit in one round of combat.

eyeolas
26-05-2009, 16:41
I continually slaughter VCs with my OnGs, but this is very much because the local players are terrible. at devourer this year I had the pleasure of watching a very good vampire player next to my table, and it did a good number on one of the standard lizy armies (couple of stegs, carny lord and a good handfull of skinks and saurus as usual, made all the more funny as I was losing to vertually a carbon copy of the same list on my table :P), getting a very convincing massicre as vertually nothing of the VC army died

But really, VCs are definately not a week army when handeled right, but they can be a very bad army is used wrong

g0ddy
26-05-2009, 17:50
Wood Elves find it nigh impossible to kill VC's.

(Not enough killing power or dispel power).

And I firmly believe that cheesed out VC list with an excellent general, will destroy a cheesed out demon list with an excellent general.

DC's are to vulnerable to getting bogged down, and nothing slows down a blood thirster like 15 Neheked Zombies a turn.

and nothing slows down vampire counts like a standard of sundering....

~ zilla

siphon101
26-05-2009, 18:00
and nothing slows down vampire counts like a standard of sundering....

~ zilla

which, while cramping the raise dead and danse spells, will do absolutely nothing against Invocation, and it's entirely possible to tarpit an army using only invocation.

PeG
26-05-2009, 18:12
I play WE as well and I find that games vs VC is often determined by terrain. With a few woodsand other obstacles I do OK against most VC lists and the ones I find most difficult to beat are not the IoN spam ones. Last game was in a tournament were the only piece of terrain was a river that went through the entire board left to right. Without any hiding I got massacered by VC magic and knigths.

Frankly
26-05-2009, 18:42
It is pretty hard to talk about VC in general term imho, because changing one or two units or one or two magic items/blood powers can change the concept and type of list the player is using.

But in 'general terms', Armies that can shift a lot of heavy hitting units across the table and look to get into combat on turn 2 and 3 will put alot of pressure on a VC army and its magic phase.


The worst thing for an VC armylist is an opponent that has a really good understanding of the VC armybook and how it plays, its spells and its units weaknesses. For example knowing to save dispel dice/scrolls for vanse, knowing blood knights have frenzy etc, etc.

'Generally' I try to go for board control and soft targeting against VC at the starting of a game. So I control my side of the board, push on to his side and start targeting support units, i.e. bats, zombies wolves.

For example: I've found the alot of VC players rely to much on holding board area with zombies. taking away zombies through combined attacks might seem over like committing, but you're taking away options for him while making it easier for yourself to create options later in the game by not having a mobile zombie terrain unit on the board and just importantly your gaining VPs.

Starting to stack those soft VPs is another way to put pressure on a VC player.

EvC
26-05-2009, 20:09
Yep, I've seen VC players act very proud after their Zombie unit is charged by an enemy heavy-hitter, and kept in place for one turn as a result... when in reality they've just lost a great tarpit and gained nothing from it. Often one of the first priorities against VCs should be to engage and take down Zombie units before they can be spammed up to unstoppable sizes. Even if that means using your uber-units of doom against them.

PeG
26-05-2009, 20:24
anything with lots of attacks are good for zombies. What you dont want to put in combat with them is expensive things with high WS and S but low numbers of attacks.

Malorian
26-05-2009, 20:31
As a VC general I don't mind expensive killy units coming after my zombies. In fact I'm usually the one going after them!

Of course my zombies are only 1 wide so only 2 or 3 of your killy ninjas can attack :D

(Yes I know you can't raise them in a congo line (need to be at least 4 wode or something) but there is nothing stopping you from raise one long rank looking to the side so that even though those khorne warriors with 2 handweapons are hitting your flank, only two of them are getting to attack as opposed to 6.)

Mercules
26-05-2009, 20:39
My Gnoblars LOVE Zombies. They are about the only thing they can face in a straight up fight and beat on a regular basis. :) I also found a cure for Zombie blocks. Tyrant with a Thundermace. Boom!

I vaporized a 20+ unit of Zombies and overran into a Vampire with my Tyrant in one game. My opponent was mortified as my Tyrant chopped down his Vampire on his turn.

changer of fate
26-05-2009, 20:44
I have a 2250 daemon army and i out magic my VC buddy all the time with 16 power dice and 9 dispel dice and his zombie get eaten up by my daemonetts so fast it is not funny and btw he is been playing for about 4 years now and i only started daemons 1 year ago

EvC
26-05-2009, 20:46
(Yes I know you can't raise them in a congo line (need to be at least 4 wode or something) but there is nothing stopping you from raise one long rank looking to the side so that even though those khorne warriors with 2 handweapons are hitting your flank, only two of them are getting to attack as opposed to 6.)

When all else fails, 15 power dice and conga line tactics. You'd fit right into the UK Grand Tournament scene, let me tell you Malorian.

Malorian
26-05-2009, 20:48
When all else fails, 15 power dice and conga line tactics. You'd fit right into the UK Grand Tournament scene, let me tell you Malorian.

They don't call me 'Sneaky Bastard Malorian' for nothing :p

Frankly
26-05-2009, 21:21
As a VC general I don't mind expensive killy units coming after my zombies. In fact I'm usually the one going after them!

Of course my zombies are only 1 wide so only 2 or 3 of your killy ninjas can attack :D

(Yes I know you can't raise them in a congo line (need to be at least 4 wode or something) but there is nothing stopping you from raise one long rank looking to the side so that even though those khorne warriors with 2 handweapons are hitting your flank, only two of them are getting to attack as opposed to 6.)

Lol thats pretty funny.

Problem with that is that it's most likely going to cramp your own movement/deployment.

The other problem is(I congo line wolves to block LoS or to flank)is you create a huge flanking target.

The other problem with congo line zombies is you'll lose any static RC.

Still, pretty sneaky tactic.


@Peg. Yeah your right; The mind set of using zombies in 7th Ed. has changed to targeting basic core choices and holding up/controlling static RC and/or targeting support units that lack RC and the attacks to hurt zombies blocks. So an opponent's the mind set of how or what you target zombie units with should change also, i.e. high attack units(2 or more attacks), combined attacks, flank attacks.

The full out for the VC player is usually not only a loss of a zombie unit and a weakened defense to good targeting, but also the usual re-action for him is to raise another zombie unit(... this is again in VERY general terms). Your then taking power dice away from Vanhel's, Gaze, Curse, Wind. Master of the black arts is the unseen tournament winner in my books, it turns a brilliant spell caster into a ultra utility spell machine, being able to take any dice out of his dice pool and making him spend them on NEEDS not WANTS is a very good thing for the opponent. This is another reason its a strong idea to send Uber units/combos against zombies, because there's a lot of pay backs for the effort.

Malorian
26-05-2009, 21:35
The other problem is(I congo line wolves to block LoS or to flank)is you create a huge flanking target.

The other problem with congo line zombies is you'll lose any static RC.

If they flank (or rather rear or front) charge the congo zombies then they themselves are showing their flank ;) Just make sure you let those zombies all/nearly all die before you jump in...

The loss of static res and giving a CR for flank has to be weighed carefully but in general against killy units losses from kills and CR crumble are more than just losses from CR crumble.

Caine Mangakahia
26-05-2009, 21:44
Of course my zombies are only 1 wide so only 2 or 3 of your killy ninjas can attack :D

Thats just mean :)

W0lf
26-05-2009, 23:32
Ive found the easiest way to beat vampires is to get as many unit as possible into CC. Its hard to raise efficiently when your fighting 3-4 combats and a vampire or 2 is dead.

The majority of armies can field infantry capable of easily killing vampires in combat which forces the VC player to bunker. Bunkers obviously have inheirant weakness's.

kardar233
27-05-2009, 00:01
It's the general consensus on Carpe Noctem that Daemons are an extraordinarily proficient counter to the Vampire Counts. Flesh Hounds or Bloodcrushers flanking any unit short of the dreaded ASFHOCVHDMBOTBDBGWGG (the acronym for Always Strikes First Helm of Commandment'd Vanhel's Danse Macabre'd Banner of the Barrows-equipped Drakenhof Banner-equipped Great Weapon Grave Guard) spells a very quick death in one or two turns. Horrors and Spell Destroyers prove a daunting magic defense, while providing more than enough offensive power to break through our magic defense and annihilate units before we have a chance to replenish them.

Troah
27-05-2009, 00:05
Vampires are so weak because someone threw garlic at them. =D

orkz222
27-05-2009, 02:32
How many pts do your VC opponent usually play? If 1k below then they are slightly weaker... 2k is where VC start to shine.

riotknight
27-05-2009, 04:53
and nothing slows down vampire counts like a standard of sundering....

~ zilla

How? The FAQ says that Sundering only effects Lores from the rule book...making it worthless against armies like Vampires, Warriors of Chaos(Most of the time), Other Daemons and anything with its own lore...

Lord Bingo
27-05-2009, 10:45
When ever i play the vampire counts at my club he is forced always to keep his vampire's in units, gotta love great cannons! Even with empire I find vampire counts easy to beat, its probarly the player.

EvC
27-05-2009, 11:30
How? The FAQ says that Sundering only effects Lores from the rule book...making it worthless against armies like Vampires, Warriors of Chaos(Most of the time), Other Daemons and anything with its own lore...

It certainly does not say that. However, it only affects spells that are in a specific Lore, so while it does work on Lore of Vampires, it does not weaken the Invocation of Nehek itself :)

Frankly
27-05-2009, 16:25
If they flank (or rather rear or front) charge the congo zombies then they themselves are showing their flank ;) Just make sure you let those zombies all/nearly all die before you jump in...

The loss of static res and giving a CR for flank has to be weighed carefully but in general against killy units losses from kills and CR crumble are more than just losses from CR crumble.

Actually I was thinking about this last night. :)

Having a conga line shuffling between to 2 other units to pretty mean. It'd be near impossible to get to its flanks to some situations and it'd be a huge speed bump if you time its movement out of from between the 2 units well.

You bastard Malorian, that's mean.

Malorian
27-05-2009, 16:32
You bastard Malorian, that's mean.

Ummm... I think you mean Sneaky Bastard Malorian ;)


I've only used it twice so far (most killy units I face are single models like stanks and flying characters) but both times I got a really evil look from my opponent...

Another thing you can do if you don't have time to raise a full congo line (say because you need to raise something else) is raise two small ones side by side but with one further back so that when the opponent charges and wipes out the first one they will overrun into the other (or stand and be blocked by the other). Then on your turn you can fill it up to be a true tar pit ;)

Visual:

B=blood knight
Z/z=zombie
.=space (ignore)

BBBBB
BBBBB

.Z
.Z z
.Z z
.Z z
.Z z
....z

riotknight
27-05-2009, 17:00
Q. Does The Great Standard of Sundering give a -2 penalty to Nehekharan
Incantations or Ogre Gut Magic?

A. No, as they are not spell lores in the conventional manner.
S. Official Daemons of Chaos FAQ


Sorry, I guess i misread it.

PapaSmurf
27-05-2009, 18:01
You do realize that a FAQ is the next thing to being useless right, not being official or written by GW, in fact usually written and interpreted to the greatest benefit of what ever army the writer uses (See stand and shoot even to the rear treemen or premeasure flying distances for flying units HA!)

I have to laugh when VC players complain about Daemons - try playing empire for a while

PapaSmurf

Alltaken
27-05-2009, 18:01
I've found the lore of metal to work wonders on vampires. I play LM BTW so a Slann with focused rumination, focus of I dont recall what and becalming cogitation are the solution, add 2 EoftG (just for cheezyness) and u got your problem solved. Lore of metal has 3 great spells; Law of Gold solves your helm of commandment issues or not on turn 1, but u may try again till it does, the spirit of the forge hungers for cavalry, transmutation of lead makes the tomb guard less effective any time of the day. Besides you can always try to banhead snipe a vampire and put some hurt with destilation of molten silver. The less usefull of them all commandment of brass can surprise a corpse cart or black coach any day. Burning alingment is a killer. Let 2 steggies (yeah allways run em together) charge a block of zombies, cavalry or well dam anything in the army 2D6+2 impact, 2D6 burning ailment 6 S6 attacks plus whatever the skinks could do, unit stregnth 20. Well very strong and nasty choice. You just migth try calling in for duels any time you charge for better effect.

I do play against a VC general whos not so keen on VC playing yet. He does however go nasty on the OK. Won all 3 games against that army

Spirit
28-05-2009, 00:52
You do realize that a FAQ is the next thing to being useless right, not being official or written by GW, in fact usually written and interpreted to the greatest benefit of what ever army the writer uses (See stand and shoot even to the rear treemen or premeasure flying distances for flying units HA!)

I have to laugh when VC players complain about Daemons - try playing empire for a while

PapaSmurf

The FAQ's on the GW website are very much official and that is where he is quoting from.

Spirit
28-05-2009, 00:53
I've found the lore of metal to work wonders on vampires. I play LM BTW so a Slann with focused rumination, focus of I dont recall what and becalming cogitation are the solution, add 2 EoftG (just for cheezyness) and u got your problem solved. Lore of metal has 3 great spells; Law of Gold solves your helm of commandment issues or not on turn 1, but u may try again till it does, the spirit of the forge hungers for cavalry, transmutation of lead makes the tomb guard less effective any time of the day. Besides you can always try to banhead snipe a vampire and put some hurt with destilation of molten silver. The less usefull of them all commandment of brass can surprise a corpse cart or black coach any day. Burning alingment is a killer. Let 2 steggies (yeah allways run em together) charge a block of zombies, cavalry or well dam anything in the army 2D6+2 impact, 2D6 burning ailment 6 S6 attacks plus whatever the skinks could do, unit stregnth 20. Well very strong and nasty choice. You just migth try calling in for duels any time you charge for better effect.

I do play against a VC general whos not so keen on VC playing yet. He does however go nasty on the OK. Won all 3 games against that army

Dont forget that your 2d6 magic missile is a varghulf/drakenhoff killer (flaming)

ivrg
28-05-2009, 01:53
Am i right to think that VC is a bit hard to play? The player must use his units and heroes in the right way or else he quickly goes down. The army is very hero dependant for raising new troops. Necromancers isnt that good at surviving and vamps with 2 wounds is not superhard to take down. The only thing that is hard to take down is the lord(if equipped in the right way). Players who play VC and dont know what they are doing is gonna get beaten.

And i dont see why WE would have such a hard time aginst the VC. Thats nonsense. i Play WE and can not agree to that.

Spirit
28-05-2009, 11:35
Am i right to think that VC is a bit hard to play? The player must use his units and heroes in the right way or else he quickly goes down. The army is very hero dependant for raising new troops. Necromancers isnt that good at surviving and vamps with 2 wounds is not superhard to take down. The only thing that is hard to take down is the lord(if equipped in the right way). Players who play VC and dont know what they are doing is gonna get beaten.

And i dont see why WE would have such a hard time aginst the VC. Thats nonsense. i Play WE and can not agree to that.

No, vampires are not hard to play, maybe for the first 10 or so games if youve never played them before, but it quickly gets easy.

How would you go about killing a vampire army with wood elves? Because many have tried vs me and failed.

Treemen get bogged down against a zombie horde, superior magic will all be aimed at your forest spirits, killing their ward save, you can never break an undead unit, good luck killing one with skirmishers. WE simply cannt win the war of attrition and youl have 1-2 varghulfs mauling all your archers turn 2.

Mercules
28-05-2009, 14:34
Wardancers chew up Zombies like crazy hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+.

5x4 zombies charged by Wardancers WS6 and S4 on the charge. 7 Wardancers can attack and they almost always have a Champ. With Storm of Blades we have 22 attacks, 14.666666 hits on average and 12.22222 Wounds on average. 20 zombies go down to 8 zombies. You get 3 ranks and possibly outnumber. 4 from 12 =... wait for it... 8. Just enough to make the unit vanish.

Aim magic at the Wardancers, they have MR(1)... Bring your knights into the woods where my Wardancers and casters will be hanging out... I wish you luck getting out of those woods. :)

I am NOT saying it is an easy fight. You are right that Vampires are rough on Wood Elves, but Wood Elves CAN take out Vampires. Lets not forget they also have 2 Spites and a magic item that can pick a target out of a unit. What happens when you start loosing Vampires inside their bunkers? :)

Spirit
28-05-2009, 15:57
Wardancers chew up Zombies like crazy hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+.

5x4 zombies charged by Wardancers WS6 and S4 on the charge. 7 Wardancers can attack and they almost always have a Champ. With Storm of Blades we have 22 attacks, 14.666666 hits on average and 12.22222 Wounds on average. 20 zombies go down to 8 zombies. You get 3 ranks and possibly outnumber. 4 from 12 =... wait for it... 8. Just enough to make the unit vanish.

Aim magic at the Wardancers, they have MR(1)... Bring your knights into the woods where my Wardancers and casters will be hanging out... I wish you luck getting out of those woods. :)

I am NOT saying it is an easy fight. You are right that Vampires are rough on Wood Elves, but Wood Elves CAN take out Vampires. Lets not forget they also have 2 Spites and a magic item that can pick a target out of a unit. What happens when you start loosing Vampires inside their bunkers? :)


Wardancers with 22 attacks = 11 hits and 9 or 10 dead, because no self respecting vampire player leaves home without the helm of command. (at least i dont)

5 static CR from zombies, so lose by 5, 15 dead zombies (60 points) next turn 2x invocation of neheks will bring that back.

Now the wardancers are on 15 attacks, 8 hits, 5-6 wounds. Good luck killing the whole zombie unit now, all because of a 30 point magic item. And on top of that, my zombie units start at 30, usually up at 40-50 by turn one because they are brilliantly easy to raise.

While i think wardancers are challenging, as long as you dont let them killing blow your vampries, they can be bogged down relatively easy, i would rather kill the dryads, who are always WS5, S4 with 2 attacks and a better save AND harder to wound with my **** troops in combat. All i need is 2 hits on a wardancer unit and chances are one of them will die. And wood elves really dont like losing models in a war of attrition.

Most of the time i pair off varghulfs against wardancers, but only if they are likely to threaten my vampires, otherwise ill just go killing expensive archers.

The spites, while they can in theory pick of vampires, its difficult to deal 2 wounds to a T4, 2+ save character in a single turn. (seeing as there are 4 different ways to get a hero vampire a 2+ save, one of which can be repeated across all your heroes, most of them will have a 2+ save unless your playing a fool) Again, if you dont manage it'l be the first IoN cast to restore the wound you cause.

EvC
28-05-2009, 16:05
I'd probably say it's the VC players with the most self-respect who don't load up on the broken items and combos really ;)

Spirit
28-05-2009, 16:12
I'd probably say it's the VC players with the most self-respect who don't load up on the broken items and combos really ;)

Well yes, if you want to compare WE vs VC who dont take all the advantages they have then i guess wood elves stand a much better chance.

But if everyone played like that then no one would have anything to moan about, and warseer would be shut down!

Memnos
28-05-2009, 16:33
Hmm... Interesting.

I would have thought, on any table where the terrain wasn't a vast open field, that Wood Elves would have the advantage.

Wardancer Hero with reroll to wound and 'Opponent always strikes last, even if they normally always strike first' and +1 attack can ruin the General's day. If he gave everyone around him his WS, so much the better as we rather pleasingly eliminate two problems at once. Give him Killing Blow and, even with only 4 attacks, he'd still hit twice and, if he fails, get to reroll those. That's 4 dice for a killing blow.

If that doesn't work, throw wardancers at his General. In this case, without Champions, you're looking at 6 dice with killing blow.

If that fails, repeat.

Throw Treemen at Varghulf.

Throw Dryads at undead everyone else.

Slow down Knights by dropping trees in front of them.

Basically, your Vampire Lord will be as expensive as a nice little hero and two units of small swordsmasters. All of whom have Killing Blow.

Frankly
28-05-2009, 16:48
Aim magic at the Wardancers, they have MR(1)... Bring your knights into the woods where my Wardancers and casters will be hanging out... I wish you luck getting out of those woods. :)



In theory WE should be playing a faster/more mobile list than a VC player, at least on the top tables on day 2 in tournaments thats what you see. This means that support match ups between B.knights, wolves, varghulfs and bats verses wild riders, glade riders, W.Dancers, DRYADS are usually controlled by the WE player since their army is built around the movement phase, not the magic phase as most VC lists are.

If WE win the control over the movement phases, then WE's support game is second to none. your looking at alot of combined attacks and alot of wounds to roll. So if wardancers get in there amongst that kind environment they will do well verse VC.

I don't have alot of game time against treemen lists or magic heavy WE lists and static WE lists are a bit weak imho, but mobile WE lists are something I watch out for in tournaments.

Spirit
28-05-2009, 17:11
Hmm... Interesting.

I would have thought, on any table where the terrain wasn't a vast open field, that Wood Elves would have the advantage.

Wardancer Hero with reroll to wound and 'Opponent always strikes last, even if they normally always strike first' and +1 attack can ruin the General's day. If he gave everyone around him his WS, so much the better as we rather pleasingly eliminate two problems at once. Give him Killing Blow and, even with only 4 attacks, he'd still hit twice and, if he fails, get to reroll those. That's 4 dice for a killing blow.

If that doesn't work, throw wardancers at his General. In this case, without Champions, you're looking at 6 dice with killing blow.

If that fails, repeat.

Throw Treemen at Varghulf.

Throw Dryads at undead everyone else.

Slow down Knights by dropping trees in front of them.

Basically, your Vampire Lord will be as expensive as a nice little hero and two units of small swordsmasters. All of whom have Killing Blow.

Getting near a vampire general is the problem, and for 15 points he can be immune to killing blow then has 4 attacks with hatred hitting on 3+ and killing on 2+ (and thats with 40/200 points of gear)

A M5 treeman cannot be thrown at a M8 varghulf, it's impossible.

Dryads are my main threat, given.

Vampire knights (the black knights) have ethereal steeds and can march through all terrain unhindered.


The trick is not to let them get their multiple charges off. Which is hard i grant, but VC are one of the most equipped to stop it with magic and if it does happen, they are one of the best equipped to survive it, because they never break and can replenish losses with ease.

Spirit
28-05-2009, 17:12
In theory WE should be playing a faster/more mobile list than a VC player, at least on the top tables on day 2 in tournaments thats what you see. This means that support match ups between B.knights, wolves, varghulfs and bats verses wild riders, glade riders, W.Dancers, DRYADS are usually controlled by the WE player since their army is built around the movement phase, not the magic phase as most VC lists are.

If WE win the control over the movement phases, then WE's support game is second to none. your looking at alot of combined attacks and alot of wounds to roll. So if wardancers get in there amongst that kind environment they will do well verse VC.

I don't have alot of game time against treemen lists or magic heavy WE lists and static WE lists are a bit weak imho, but mobile WE lists are something I watch out for in tournaments.

Its obviously because i do not play a lot of tournaments, but every wood elf player at my lgs refuses to leave home without at least one treeman and 2 units of archers. I would like to see what else they could do.

Would you agree that vampires are quite well equipped to stop the movement domination because of vanhells?

artyboy
28-05-2009, 17:46
For the conga line, do you just raise one big rank of zombies, turn them 90 degrees and then just march forward as normal? You don't have to reform the unit to move forward?

Lord Dan
28-05-2009, 17:55
Arguments about "this army could win against this army no problem" always tends to digress into fights similar to "my dad could beat up your dad".

Frankly
28-05-2009, 19:55
Would you agree that vampires are quite well equipped to stop the movement domination because of vanhells?


yes and no.

In essence yes. I play/ed a VC list that can spam out 9 vanhels in one turn, this is an extreme example of dominating movement through magic. But even using a utility lord caster with master of the black arts, a back up necro with power stones or a thrall and the book of arkhan could do it.

It'll come down to unit choice over everything else, units that you could get in position to threaten with vanhels. i.e varghulfs, bats, black knights and wolves.


For a few reasons I'd say no your not going to dominate movement with vanhels, because its the one spell your opponent looks to dispel. Anti-magic in most lists get alot more points pumped into it these days with VC, DoC, DE and L.M. being so strong in the magic phase and so strong at tournaments.

Especially against WE, they get a charge re-action with a few really good harassment units that can pull out vanhels casts. A flee re-action can really doom and magically moved unit that NEEDED to get into that combat, imo against WE if their WHOLE army is mobile and part of it can bait then they're better equipped to create a bait and flee situation to handle magic movement.

But yeah, vanhels is really hard to talk about because its never so clear cut about how well it works without putting it into a direct situation.

Frankly
28-05-2009, 20:03
A M5 treeman cannot be thrown at a M8 varghulf, it's impossible.

Dryads are my main threat, given.

Vampire knights (the black knights) have ethereal steeds and can march through all terrain unhindered.


The trick is not to let them get their multiple charges off. Which is hard i grant, but VC are one of the most equipped to stop it with magic and if it does happen, they are one of the best equipped to survive it, because they never break and can replenish losses with ease.

Agreed.

LOL. Some how I got on the wrong side of the debate and I'm sticking up for WE when I run fast combat VC lists.:), But yeah, I agree with what your saying here.

Sometimes it comes down to some really basic stuff in WHFB .... like who has the longest charge range and VC have some really nice counting options with a good range of attack.

jmcg1989
28-05-2009, 20:23
I call shenanigans. An excellent Vampire general versus an excellent Demon general, or an excellent High Elf general, or an excellent Wood Elf general? In fact, depending on terrain I would back an excellent Wood Elf general versus an excellent general of Vampires, but probably not an excellent general of Beastmen.

Vampire Counts are a very solid army, but not the best in the game. I would state that Daemons edges it out.





i would say high elves are starting to slip off the top tier

i played a high elf general today who had been going around beating on people with his teclis list

i ran a magic light list which was zombie heavy
i had a unit of 6 wraiths and a general on hellsteed with red fury and the dreadlance
i held an entire flank with my wraiths while my general flew about smacking away units and mages
last few turns he charged teclis, challenged him and (thanks to ASF from a nearby corpse cart) smacked him silly, overrun into kohril and smacked his face off as well
epic win



as far as unbeatable uber cheese lists daemons take the biscuit

Mercules
28-05-2009, 21:54
Wardancers with 22 attacks = 11 hits and 9 or 10 dead, because no self respecting vampire player leaves home without the helm of command. (at least i dont)

12" range on that helm, 4x6' table. ;) Please bring your Bunker unit close to woods for me, I promise I won't Spam cast Tree Singing until said unit is locked in tight while I go after the rest of your army.


Treeman, 6" range, no LoS needed with Stranglroots. Move 5" into trees, Tree Singing moves you to within 6" of Varghulf, shoot him. He can't charge the Treeman and Vampire wastes dice healing up Varghulf instead of raising Zombies/Skeletons/Ghouls.

Notice, I did say it was a tough fight but your knights/varghulfs are going to have to get past my Wardancers, Wildriders, Dryads, Treeman Ancient to get to the mobile arrow fire of the Glade Guard(which should help keep your growing numbers in check). This is while I am moving woods around and you are avoiding charges from Skirmishers and Fast Cavalry. Now I also have Call of the Hunt for movement. MUCH harder to cast but it can allow me to move something to a flanking position and charge you or stick something in the woods and without LoS move straight ahead into the unit I can't see and get a Charge out of it.

It isn't a matter of armybook vrs armybook that is going to determine this fight, but a matter of generalship, dice, terrain, and situation. Which is what I have been stating. It isn't an auto-win for the Vampire, even a GOOD vampire player. WE is a decent army and can take on the power three armies out there with a little luck and determination.

Spirit
28-05-2009, 22:46
Well in less than 3k points ive never had any trouble keeping my helm near the things i want it to be, 6x4 board or not and strangle root will only do one wound to a varghulf on average, and if you want to sit in woods for 4 turns shooting a 175 point carghulf with your 300 point treeman be my guest. But anyway every counter has a counter has a counter....

Of course i dont think its going to be an auto win for the vampires. But i do think that with equally skilled players, a vampire army will have a major advantage over a WE army. Yes, that means that me (a VC player) believes that vamps are more overpowered in general than WE.

Spirit
28-05-2009, 22:47
a general on hellsteed with red fury and the dreadlance

Why didnt teclis just conflagration of doom/spirit of the forge/beast cowers the vampire lord on the hellsteed? Seems like an easy kill to me if you pick the right lore.

EvC
28-05-2009, 23:38
Probably same reason why his unit champion didn't step forward to take the challenge- because he wasn't very good.

ivrg
29-05-2009, 00:30
Spirit, what you are arguing about VE agianst VC is not correct. You write about a treeman geting boged doen in a skelle reg. Well, thats the thing about the treeman. The treeman is there to be an anvil that can take damage while the rest of the army swarm around the enemy. On you it sounds like the entire WE would egt boged down and then your special and rare would move around the flanks killing everything.

In my current list i go with a treeman ancient with annoyance of netlings. 4 units of dryads, 3x10 glade guards, 2 units of wild riders, 5 waywatchers, 3 treekin. Except the ancient i use an alter, BSB and a lvl2 spellsinger with calingors stave. The treeman have cluster of radians which gives me obe dispel dice extra.

Against armies with large infatery blocks, the WE tactic is just to try to avoid a head on confrontation as long as it is not on thier terms. If the attack head on they will loose. The enemy have all the advantages of such a fight. But with use of terrain and movement the WE can win.

Spirit
29-05-2009, 01:52
Again, i could write a counter to everything on that list of yours. Everything has a counter, but when you take a step back and look at both armies, VC are very well equiped tobeat WE, more so than WE are to beat VC.

Your army listed has what, 5 dispell dice? How can you expect to fight someone on your terms when they blast the crap out of you in the magic phase and then bring back anything you do manage to kill? My magic light vamp army runs around 10 power dice and a bound spell or 2.

If your 400 point ancient (thats a guess at points) is there to provide an "anvil" to kill 120 points of zombies, as i said before, your not gonna find me complaining. My zombies are there to tarpit such a thing.

Yes it will all come down to tactics, of course it will, what game of warhammer doesnt? But for every way of dealing with a VC unit i have at least one counter + one way to stop my unit dying (granted, that is usually the helm of command). If you want to multi chare a unit of my undead, you can bet thats going to be the one that becomes WS 6/7, then it's my turn and i get to counter charge.