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IllidanStormrage
25-05-2009, 23:31
After Aragorn has become king, and everything... do you guys think there were maybe some small skirmishes. Like the wild men of dunland and the rohirrim.

What are your guys thoughts?

VeriNasti
26-05-2009, 02:28
With Harad under control, I guess they would force the eaterlings/dunlendings to surrender to the almighty power of good lol. I guess though Mirkwood?angmar there would most certainly be contnious fights...not to mention Moria

Simon Sez
26-05-2009, 11:05
Two days after the ring is destroyed the Siege of Erebor is broken by Bard II and Thorin III Stonehelm.
The next day a forceled by Celeborn crossed the Andiun and assaulted dol Guldur, at roughly the same time Thranduil was winning the battle under the trees.
Dunland had sued for peace after their defeat at Helms Deep, the Hobbits were later escorted by Elves through the country and were unchallenged (partly due to the Dunlendings fear of Elves)
The last battle recorded as part of the War of the Ring was between the Shire and Sharkeys Ruffians in the Battle of Bywater.
Further in time:
"And wherever King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Eomer grew old" (Eomer died in Fourth Age. 63.)

C-Coen
26-05-2009, 12:39
I believe there would be quite a bit of fighting in the East and the South to do for Aragorn and, as said, Eomer.
For the Dwarves, Moria. There are some clues, I think, about another Durin retaking the old mines.
After Dol Guldur, the Elves didn't do too much, IIRC. Most were just leaving.

IllidanStormrage
26-05-2009, 20:17
Yea im sure the dwarfs, and misty mountains realm fought each other.

Chainaxe07
27-05-2009, 06:55
Actually me and my group (10 wotr/14sbg players) are going about the business of a fourth age campaign.
Quite tricky, since generic, non epic heroes cant lead armies and most evil ones are gone by now.
Anyway its fun, and we have the "bad guys" winning, especially the iron allegiance between Isengard/Dunland and the Misty Mountains is proving to be a real power (i am one of the 3 players in the allegiance, so i quite enjoy it!).
The Mordor wotr list is the one that suffers most, as without ringwraits, sauron and gothmog they've got very little left in the way of Epic Heroes (shelob is not really an option...).
As for the mouth of Sauron we went book wise rather than movie wise, so he was not among those slain for sure and can be used in the fourth age.
I remmber king Elessar was said to have ridden to Rhun in order to quell uprisings during the fourth age, together with Eomer.
Beside that very little is known about the battles of that time.

Jorgen_CAB
27-05-2009, 08:13
I think that the Mordor list should mainly be like the Forgotten Kingdoms list for the Good side in the fourth age. You can only take their troops as allies for other armies. Gothmogs profile could easily be proxied by some other powerful new Orc leader. Both Kardush and Mouth of Sauron could be used as well I think.

Why not invent some new powerful characters for the evil side, such as a great Uruk-Hai general for the shattered Isengard forces etc...
I think that Gothmogs profile could easily be transferred as an Uruk-Hai leader or perhaps Boromirs profile would be befitting as an Uruk-Hai as well. :)

Condottiere
27-05-2009, 11:41
If you start inventing enemies, I would have supposed that there should be enough Black Númenóreans who would be willing to seize the reins of state down south.

irishthump
28-05-2009, 14:28
Since King Elessar vowed to restore bot Gondor AND Arnor I think it would be quite conceivable for some major battles between Gondor/Rohan and the remnants of Sauron's/Witchking's forces in Arnor.

Desert Rain
06-06-2009, 14:05
After Aragorn has become king, and everything... do you guys think there were maybe some small skirmishes. Like the wild men of dunland and the rohirrim.

What are your guys thoughts?
There's still an awfull lot of orcs and other wicked creatures left in Middle-Earth to keep the good ones busy for a long time to come.

Chainaxe07
08-06-2009, 10:33
Hi, well yes there are still fell creatures in middle earth, and i guess you could have all the SBG games you like, but there are no evil Epic heroes left (well, not worth mentioning) to lead your armies in WOTR.
Unless we can bring auron back!
That would be awesome! I'd vote for him for sure, red eye list!

Simon Sez
08-06-2009, 13:45
A while back I tried writing a Fourth Age BC campaign about the possible return of Sauron.

My fluff was that after the Siege of Barad Dur led to the Dark Lords physical destruction the components of his armour (The Helmet, Cloak, Breastplate, Mace, Gauntlets and Greaves) were siezed upon by all sides, being passed down, stolen or lost through the centuries. Later, with the Ring destroyed and Saurons collected essence destroyed, the embedded mark of the Dark Lord upon his old possessions began to be noticed once again (more of an insistent hum as oppossed to the loud beating drum the Ring was).

There were two basic goals:
Good- Find and destroy the armour.
Evil- Collect the armour and use them to create something powerful:
1. Fuse them to build an brutish but slow-witted automaton powered by Saurons lingering trace memory.
OR
2. Give them to your Leader, making him incredibly powerful but at risk of losing control of the armour.
OR
3. Distribute the various components amongst your Heroes.

It didn't get too far sadly; working out what you could do with so many pieces, whether to keep the arms and legs in pairs or seperate, what each piece would do... it became a bit of a hassle. Actually talking about it has made me want to have another crack at it!

Condottiere
08-06-2009, 15:07
Gondor can still send Peace-keeping forces to the lands of the Easterlings/Wainriders.

Chainaxe07
09-06-2009, 11:27
Again the problem is not the opportunity for conflict (there are always aplenty), rather than, with the exception of misty mountains and fallen realms, all evil armies have no suitable epic heroes to lead them.
Isengard just has Thrydan and the legendary crossbowmen formation (they are gw made and did not get explicitly destroyed), and Mordor suffers even more.
We went "by the book" about the mouth of Sauron, so he is still available, and we even decided Mordor players could field the Undying, simply because of its name and because its entry in the mordor supplement was too cool: a being whose only scope is outliving all others!
So we decided to allow him too.
We are now considering allowing Shagrat and his legendary formation as well, since even if he was captured and, probably, tortured for treason (yup, in all likelyhood) he could have survived too.
We have to do this as we now have a third Mordor player and he needs at least an epic hero or a legendary company...
Still it amounts to fairly little compared to the forces of good.
Basically they just lost Hama and Theoden, plus Eowyn is no longer really available.
Ok, and the odd character from another age here and there as well, but still there is no balance really.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-06-2009, 11:17
I'd imagine that without a unifying threat that men would flourish and eventually the "good-guys" would start waring with each other.

Happily ever after is so boring.

baphomael
25-06-2009, 13:50
Again the problem is not the opportunity for conflict (there are always aplenty), rather than, with the exception of misty mountains and fallen realms, all evil armies have no suitable epic heroes to lead them.
Isengard just has Thrydan and the legendary crossbowmen formation (they are gw made and did not get explicitly destroyed), and Mordor suffers even more.
We went "by the book" about the mouth of Sauron, so he is still available, and we even decided Mordor players could field the Undying, simply because of its name and because its entry in the mordor supplement was too cool: a being whose only scope is outliving all others!
So we decided to allow him too.
We are now considering allowing Shagrat and his legendary formation as well, since even if he was captured and, probably, tortured for treason (yup, in all likelyhood) he could have survived too.
We have to do this as we now have a third Mordor player and he needs at least an epic hero or a legendary company...
Still it amounts to fairly little compared to the forces of good.
Basically they just lost Hama and Theoden, plus Eowyn is no longer really available.
Ok, and the odd character from another age here and there as well, but still there is no balance really.


To be fair, why not use the profiles of 'dead' legendary heroes to represent heroes of your own invention? For example Gothmog - an Orc hero? Those rules could easily represent the next big Orc boss to bully and backstab his way into command. People do it all the time in 40k, why not WotR?

Chainaxe07
25-06-2009, 20:36
To be fair, why not use the profiles of 'dead' legendary heroes to represent heroes of your own invention? For example Gothmog - an Orc hero? Those rules could easily represent the next big Orc boss to bully and backstab his way into command. People do it all the time in 40k, why not WotR?
Well i dont know, i mean this wholetheme of evil getting weaker as time goes by is in all of Tolkien's works. Sauron is weaker thn his master, and so on.
I guess the real big hitters, like Sauron, Saruman and the like should remain in the past (third age or earlier). Maybe the profiles of "regular" evil big guys, like Lurtz and maybe Gothmog could be employed like you suggest.

Jobu
29-06-2009, 10:46
As far as wizards, there were supposed to be two more wizards who were sent to ME to help combat sauron. You could easily say that these two were corrupted like saruman and are now leading armies, just give them stats similar to khardush or some other wizard.

Sorros
30-06-2009, 13:53
Radagast is one, don't remember the other. And Radagast was annoying, never became corrupted. I suppose now that Gandalf got promoted, Radagast got bumped up the ranks too, so now he's Grey? If he gets promoted, why would he be corrupt?

And as Baphomael said, just use the other heroes to represent new ones. Maybe change some stats around a little, or rules, but make it agreed upon by the whole group so its a fair hero.

Condottiere
30-06-2009, 14:26
Radagast seems to have dissociated himself from humanity and seems quite happy with his bird friends. The two Blue Wizards seem to have moved east, perhaps fulfilling some mission down there. Whether they became corrupted, who knows?

Sorros
30-06-2009, 15:03
He never was with humanity, the wizards aren't human :p

And yeah, he did disappear somewhere. Not even Elrond's buddies could find him...

The two blue wizards apparently had some contradictions in Tolkien's notes, writings, etc. At first, they appear to have fallen like Saruman did, except to the those of the east (easterlings? Rhun?), but later he says they actually came back to middle earth with Glorfindel. And yet he also says that they just chilled out in the east, being as awesome as Gandalf but in their own adventure, not the focus of LOTR but just as important.

Stratigo
13-07-2009, 03:58
It took Gondor 4 decades to subdue Rhun, so yeah there's plenty of war left.

As for wringwraiths post Sauron. Instead of them being ringwraiths just say they are evil sorcerors.

Dai-Mongar
16-07-2009, 03:45
Four magic words:
THEY SAVED SAURON'S BRAIN!

Brandir
19-07-2009, 18:29
'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. [b]He wore a ring on his finger[b].
Quote taken from LOTR Book 2 Chapter 2 The Council of Elrond - my emphasis.

Saruman was quite a student of Sauron and his Ring Lore.

Why did Professor Tolkien put in this one short sentence?

Because He was a great visionary and saw the day when wargamers would be seeking an enemy for battles in the Fourth Age! He has left us with a device, a little snippet upon which to base a series of codexes and RPG supplements. Saruman's spirit has clearly survived in this ring. Perhaps an unfortunate prisoner of the Hobbits picked it up whilst clearing things post Battle of Bywater? Perhaps this ring found it's way to a chieftain of the Dunlendings or a shaman type in a Dunland tribe?

Anyway - 'The Rise of Saruman' will be in GW soon ......

Simon Sez
21-07-2009, 11:24
Except after the Battle of Bywater, we see Sarumans spirit arise after his murder, try to pass into the West, but instead be disipated by a breeze.

Brandir
21-07-2009, 11:31
You are quite right Simon:


To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. Quote taken from LOTR Book 6 Chapter 8 The Scouring of the Shire.

But why let the facts get in the way of an interesting story?
;)

Condottiere
21-07-2009, 15:40
Not to worry, GW trumps Tolkien on LotR lore.

Snoopy100
25-07-2009, 06:26
I think it would be strange if just because Gondor were the good people against Mordor that they'll stay that way.
Gondor could become a tryannical nation which decides to enslave the other free people.
Harad could betray Gondor.
The Orcs are still around, just weaker and in hiding, if they united maybe they could be a threat.

Brandir
25-07-2009, 07:21
Of course one could always use 'The New Shadow' by JRR Tolkien - the snippet He wrote when considering a Fourth Age book. Basically the premise was 100 years into Eldarion's reign a cult had sprung up that worshipped Morgoth/Sauron.

Condottiere
25-07-2009, 14:58
As long as some virgin doesn't give birth to a demigod, becomes enslaved and the kid is discovered by some rangers guarding one of the last Elven princesses.

herald of kairos
26-07-2009, 19:24
condottiere your statement makes no sense tolkien wrote the lore and that means he cant be trumped now bite my head of i know yous all will but i had to say it

Condottiere
26-07-2009, 19:29
You should examine posts in the sequence they were posted.

Urath
28-07-2009, 20:14
Personally, I don't think there should have been a LotR battle game. I'm a big fan of the novels and movies, but I think thats where they should stay.

Brandir
28-07-2009, 21:00
Personally, I don't think there should have been a LotR battle game. I'm a big fan of the novels and movies, but I think thats where they should stay.

An oft-discussed issue!

Urath
28-07-2009, 21:11
What do you think, Brandir?

Brandir
28-07-2009, 21:26
I think that GW were right to secure the LOTR tabletop miniature game rights for LOTR.

When Tom Kirby announced that GW had secured the rights he made the point it was exceptionally important that another company did not secure the rights. I agreed then at the 2001 AGM and still agree with the decision.

Yes, the vast amounts of money did mean GW became complacent. But the licence did mean GW could spend £millions on a virtual reconstruction of their manufacturing base many years ahead of schedule.

I hope GW secure the rights to The Hobbit when it is released in 2011 for many of the same reasons why the LOTR licence was secured.

Note: I must declare a financial interest in this discussion - I am a Long-term GW share holder!

Urath
28-07-2009, 21:45
Ah I see. Then your argument sir, is anulled! *chuckles gayly*

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 06:41
How can the Hobbit make a better impact on the wargaming scene? The new aspect that I see is a dungeon crawling game.

Brandir
29-07-2009, 07:59
Battle of the Five Armies a dungeon crawl?

Maybe The Hobbit will re-vitalise the semi-RPG/skirmish aspect of the LOTR system with lots of well-playtested scenarios?

Condottiere
29-07-2009, 08:05
Wouldn't that just be a variation on what's presently available?

Brandir
29-07-2009, 08:08
Isn't every new gaming add-on simply a variation of what is presently available?