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TheWatcherUK
26-05-2009, 16:52
hi all just played against my high elf friend and we ran into a problem regarding auto break

my unit of 12 skinks and 2 kroxigors charge his unit of white lions after a very poor combat hes left with 10 white lions and the combat result is 3 in my favour -

heres the problem if your beaten in combat by a fear causing opponent you auto break if there unit strength his higher then the losing sides ....

do i count the unit as a whole for this or just the 2 krox for this ??

so to clarify - am i correct in thinking the 10 man white lions auto break or that im wrong and i only have a unit strength of 6 so he stays ??


cheers all :)

thanks for putting up with my noobiness

Eulogy2
26-05-2009, 16:59
for fear, your unit strength is only 6, so he wont auto break. if he had only 5 left, he would, so he was right.

btw if you didnt take shooting casaulties, you need 16 skinks to have 2 krox. 8:1 ratio minimum.

TheWatcherUK
26-05-2009, 17:41
yeah i took 3 rounds worth of little bolts he rolled really bad , started with the min 16 skink 2 krox

thanks for the fast reply dude

Zeuy
27-05-2009, 02:26
It doesn't read like that in the BRB,unless it says something else in the lizardmen book or an FAQ. On page 50-1, it reads "lower than the combined unit strength of all Fear-causing enemy units". If it read models, then I would agree though.

Edit: Thanks to Clegane (below). Page 78. Although it is talking about characters, it makes sense to apply these rules to kroxigors in a skink unit.

Clegane
27-05-2009, 04:18
It doesn't read like that in the BRB,unless it says something else in the lizardmen book or an FAQ. On page 50-1, it reads "lower than the combined unit strength of all Fear-causing enemy units". If it read models, then I would agree though.

Read the section on single models with Fear being in units of non-Fear-causing troops.

He confers to them the IMMUNITY to Fear that he has, but not the effects of Fear itself.

So your quote is correct, except that the 'unit' does not cause Fear. Only the Kroxes do.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-05-2009, 10:15
So your quote is correct, except that the 'unit' does not cause Fear. Only the Kroxes do.

If you regard a unit containing a mixture of fear-causers and non-fear-causers to be a non fear causing unit they can never auto-break an enemy.

Convention is to use the unit strength of the fear causing models.

jrodrag
03-06-2009, 04:10
It doesn't read like that in the BRB,unless it says something else in the lizardmen book or an FAQ. On page 50-1, it reads "lower than the combined unit strength of all Fear-causing enemy units". If it read models, then I would agree though.

Edit: Thanks to Clegane (below). Page 78. Although it is talking about characters, it makes sense to apply these rules to kroxigors in a skink unit.

You actually just misread the quote from page 50 and 51. It specifically says to add the unit strength of all "Fear-causing enemy units". The skinks are not fear causing enemy units but the Kroxigors are. Same thing is used if you have cold one cav and saurus teaming up on a unit. Only add the fear causing unit strength to check for auto break.

nosferatu1001
03-06-2009, 11:32
jrodrag - you didnt read the OP - he has a mixed skink / krox unit wherer part of the unit causes fear. The Krox in this case are NOT a fear causing unit by themselves, which is why it is difficult.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-06-2009, 18:49
The reason it's difficult is because the kroxigors are not characters, and the only rules for mixed fear/non-fear units are specifically in terms of characters joined to units. Virtually everyone extends those rules to other cases of mixed units because otherwise it's simply a gap in the ruleset.

Eulogy2
03-06-2009, 19:03
its really the only sensible thing to do.

youd probably be scared of the 7 foot tall crocadile standing on 2 legs with a mace bigger than you are but you probably wouldnt be scared of a 3 foot tall gecko with a pointy stick that he shoved into a cess pool before the fight.

Lord Yawgmoth
03-06-2009, 19:05
Virtually everyone extends those rules to other cases of mixed units because otherwise it's simply a gap in the ruleset.

These are my exact sentiments,

jrodrag
03-06-2009, 23:33
@Nosferatu - I did not misread the OP's question. It is a mixed unit of Krox and skinks. Essentially two units that are mixed together in the same block. One is fear causing and the other is not. The situation does not resolve itself any differently because they are in the same block.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-06-2009, 23:37
It is not actually two units, jrodrag, but one unit. I agree with your conclusion, but I don't think your method of getting there (basically reinterpreting the word "unit" to mean something completely different than what it actually means in-game) is valid.

jrodrag
03-06-2009, 23:51
This is really the only unit in the game that works that way and as long as we all come to the same conclusion its all good. But GW definatly needed to do a little more explaining here. The way some here are reading it is that you are adding a special choice 1 unit krox to a unit of 8+ skinks. Thus the unit actually takes up a core and a special and is two units in one. While I don't agree with that the book is not very helpful in any regard. But, I have had people argue that the krox is not a char and so doesn't follow those rules so I took this other tact with it and won through.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-06-2009, 00:03
This is really the only unit in the game that works that way...Not by a long shot, at least not in terms of mixing psychology in a way that the rulebook only considers in terms of characters.

nosferatu1001
04-06-2009, 02:52
Jrodrag - sorry, as you were talking about "units" i assumed you were thinking of them as seperate units, when they cannot be - that's not what the definition of "unit" is.

You can argue that a steg mount in skink/saurus/etc unit is not a "terror causing character" either, so there's another example where mixed-psych does not have a recognised solution within the rules.

The unit also explicitly does not take up a special and core, given it specifically states it does not do so...

xragg
04-06-2009, 12:52
Just to name a few more off the top of my head:

Rat Ogres with handlers
Hydra with beastmasters
Hell Cannon with chaos dwarves
Salamanders/Razordons with skinks

Taureus
04-06-2009, 17:17
Jrodrag - sorry, as you were talking about "units" i assumed you were thinking of them as seperate units, when they cannot be - that's not what the definition of "unit" is.

You can argue that a steg mount in skink/saurus/etc unit is not a "terror causing character" either, so there's another example where mixed-psych does not have a recognised solution within the rules.

The unit also explicitly does not take up a special and core, given it specifically states it does not do so...

The Stegadon is a bad example to use.

The problem with the Stegadon, is that it's US10 even though it only starts with 5 wounds on its profile. The increased US is because of the skinks riding it.

nosferatu1001
04-06-2009, 18:07
No, the increased US is because you are told it is always US10. It is not a bad example as you have one model that can be joined to another unit that causes terror, while not being a character - it is a characters mount (otherwise it could not be joined) but not a character.

TheWatcherUK
04-06-2009, 19:23
right so its not so simple after all i will keep playing it as its decided at the top of this column till GW can be bothered to do us lizzie players an FAQ

just goes to show that they need to start thinking more about rules and either inserting examples into the army books or making rules clearer if a possible problem could occur

i personally would rather have clearer rules and understanding then half the gumf and fluff they 3/4 fill the books with

any ideas when the FAQ is btw i noticed a few people said june but does any one know for certain ??

nosferatu1001
05-06-2009, 09:07
Nothing is certain, however it is the right time span compared to other FAQs.

As has been said it is NOT just lizards that have to deal with it, Skaven have had to do so since 6th ed for example.

The rules are clear, in that there are no rules covering the situation - however 90% of people I have ever met play it consistently: add up the US of just the fear / terror causers (as appropriate) and determine if this outnumbers you.

Taureus
05-06-2009, 15:06
No, the increased US is because you are told it is always US10. It is not a bad example as you have one model that can be joined to another unit that causes terror, while not being a character - it is a characters mount (otherwise it could not be joined) but not a character.

The Steam Tank entry also says its US10...Which is how many wounds it has on its profile.

Stegadon = 5 wounds, skinks = 5 wounds. Adding character doesn't increase the US, as would adding a character to a chariot. That's why it says US10.

EvC
05-06-2009, 15:24
It is NOT US10 because of the Skinks riding it- the rules for the Stegadon explicitly tell you it is US10 regardless of how many Skinks are riding it. It's just plain US10, simply because it is.

nosferatu1001
06-06-2009, 01:43
The Steam Tank entry also says its US10...Which is how many wounds it has on its profile.

Stegadon = 5 wounds, skinks = 5 wounds. Adding character doesn't increase the US, as would adding a character to a chariot. That's why it says US10.

And as you were told, the Stegadon has specific rules stating that "regardless.....it is always US10" - THAT is why it is US10, nothing to do with the number of skinks, size of the weapons or age of the stegadon. It is US10 because you are specifically told it is - no other reason

If you were not told so it would only be US5, as it is US=starting number of wounds - and crew do not count for this. You could then add a character to it to get US6. However this is irrelevant as you are simply told it is US10.

Please continue using irrelevant examples, however the army book specifically says your reasoning is wrong. It's not even unclear.

fishound7
08-06-2009, 00:45
So I just want to make sure I got this clear. The skink krox unit does cause fear but you only count the fear causing krox for unit strength in determining if they auto-break.

I have a player in my community that bases his entire army on large units of these for auto-breaking. He is fielding them as 30 or 25 strong or so. Is this its intended use?

I just moved here so they play the rules differently then how i'm used too. I've also had to correct people in my community because they keep messing up the rules. Not because they are trying to bend it but because they just don't know the rules so well.

So another question. If you fail your fear to this unit do you only hit the kroxigors on 6's or the whole unit? Even though the kroxigors are the ones causing fear?

Or does the Krox unit only make the unit immune to fear?

Someone please clarify because this is kinda dumb that this isn't seriously covered.

nosferatu1001
08-06-2009, 05:20
You fear the Krox as you can hit them (rules for fear causers in unit of non fear causers) therefore you would only hit those on 6s if you fail a fear test.

Ask him to show you the rule which states the combined unit counts as causing fear. It makes them immune to fear certainly, but nothing states the entire unit strength counts as causing it.

In that case you need to then compromise - as ntohing allows him to count the entire unit, and it doesnt make sense to only count some of the unit, suggest only the US of the Krox counts.