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View Full Version : Monsters and defensible terrain!



Jorgen_CAB
27-05-2009, 06:47
Are there anyone else who thinks that the rules for fighting in defensible terrain in regard to monsters seems to be unbalanced or at least illogical.

Since Monsters can't loose a fight (which is a strange rules as well) unless they fight together with other formations they will either die or rout out any troops defending in defensible terrain.
Likewise is it impossible to rout them out of a terrain feature. You either kill them or they stand their ground inside.

We have now tested a few variation and found one that seems to work and I would like to share that and get some thoughts on it.

When you charge a formation in defensible terrain with a Monster you need to do more casualties as there are companies defending the terrain. You also must do at least one casualty for each wound the defenders do to the monster in return.

When you charge a monster defending in terrain you apply the same rules with the difference that the monster only need to do more casualties than the number of companies that are fighting directly to stay put in the terrain feature.

I don't understand the reason why Monsters can't be defeated in combat and forced to withdraw to save themselves when outnumbered and overwhelmed. You could apply the same type of rules to regular combat as well but we have not tested that yet.

xxRavenxx
27-05-2009, 08:46
No page reference (never have my book and my computer in the same building sadly) but I'm almost certain that the book states that only infantry can take up defencible positions.

Jorgen_CAB
27-05-2009, 08:54
Page 53.

Walled field - Infantry, Cavalry and Monsters may occupy
Forest - Infantry, Cavalry and Monsters may occupy
Timber building - Infantry and Monsters may occupy
Stone building - Infantry and Monsters may occupy

kench1
27-05-2009, 12:15
What about a Mumakil it can fit in a small wooden building that has a capacity of 1 formation.

I think a good fix for the Mumakill would be to give it a size of 5 or 6 formations and make balrogs and dragons size 3

Jorgen_CAB
27-05-2009, 12:40
I think that you need to make some judgement call on that. I would say that Mumakil would not be able to enter buildings at all and would be treated as at least four companies when entering terrain like woods and rocky terrain. Dragons and Balrogs would be suitable as at least two or three companies I believe. Trolls would be enough to count as one or maybe two companies.

Jobu
27-05-2009, 17:16
What about a Mumakil it can fit in a small wooden building that has a capacity of 1 formation.

I think a good fix for the Mumakill would be to give it a size of 5 or 6 formations and make balrogs and dragons size 3

The rules state that a formation can only occupy a terrain feature if the features capacity is equal to or greater than that of the formation. This is supposed to be determined before you start a game. My rule of thumb is...if they physically can fit into the terrain then it is ok for the formation to occupy it. So in my corner of the world a mumakill can not enter a building or my citadel woods for example. By fit I mean without a movement tray like they do on page 53.

kench1
27-05-2009, 17:23
I totally agree, but the rules state that you can fit in any defensible terrain with the same capacity as your formation.

A Mumakil is a formation of 1 company so can fit it in even the smallest piece of defensible terrain. By giving it a larger size i suggest 6, it means that it cant go in virtually any terrain and will actually give bonus to hit it with artillery rather than a penalty.

Jobu
27-05-2009, 18:13
Yeah, but I think the movement rules for the mumak pretty much exclude it from ever entering a terrain feature. The mumak must stop, as per the rules, if it comes into contact with a TF. Then it suffers hits, which would lead it to stampede. So one would have to roll perfectly in order to get into a feature anyway.


I totally agree, but the rules state that you can fit in any defensible terrain with the same capacity as your formation.

A Mumakil is a formation of 1 company so can fit it in even the smallest piece of defensible terrain. By giving it a larger size i suggest 6, it means that it cant go in virtually any terrain and will actually give bonus to hit it with artillery rather than a penalty.

kench1
28-05-2009, 11:54
I think technically if it won a round of combat it could move into the vacated terrain feature.

Flinch
28-05-2009, 13:54
Page 198 on Mumak:

Under the Trample! rule: "... if a Mumak encounters any difficult, defensible or impassable terrain, the board edge or another Mumak..." it stops and suffers D6 automatic hits.

It's move value is "-", so the only way to move is to use the Trample! move.

Then the Mumak can Charge and fight - following the normal rules for a charging monster - with no mention of taking hits if coming into contact with definsible terrain.

So, the only way a Mumak can get into defensible terrain is in the charge phase if it wins combat and the enemy flee the terrain... Although once in there, I read the Trample! as stopping it from moving in the move phase and taking hits.. and a Mumak that Stampedes will auto die... so the only way INTO or OUT OF defensible terrain with a mumak is by charging!

But it still makes no sense ;)... counting as an elevated position... can't walk into but can charge into/out of a single story building...

Maybe it would make sense if the Mumak was painted like a clown and the terrain feature was a clown car...

kench1
28-05-2009, 15:30
I think the Mumakil opens up a serious can of worms. It has so many ambiguous rules that it needs an FAQ all by itself.

It probably can charge into a building, but it takes a unit its full move to exit a building which would have to be its trample move. Meaning it would take damage when attempting to leave the building.

My understanding of the rules is no unit can charge while in a defensible terrain feature, you must use your move move to leave it first and may then attempt to charge in the charge phase. Otherwise where would you measure charge distance from, the centre of the terrain ?

Here is another mumakil problem. It cleary says earlier in the rules that you should pay particular attention to the eliptical bases of dragons and Mumakil, to ensure that the end part of their base moves no further than their maximum movement distance.

So for example a mumakil if its base is 8" long would take 8" to spin 180 degrees and roughly 4" to spin 90 degrees. In the trample description you turn the model to face any direction and move 3d6" so is the extra moved by the back of the base counted or discounted.

When Charging do you measure from the closest point of the model or do you add the distance the whole base must move first, so if a unit is 6" to the rear of the mumakill would need a 2+ to charge it (d6+4) or could you only charge something 2" behind you by rolling a 6 since you are 2" plus the base 8" away.

If you dont count these extra inches then it means the mumakil can reverse charge into units, which is silly, but if you ignore this extra movement for trample moves and charges why do the rules tell you to pay particular attention to the elyptical base ??

Answers on a postcard Mr Ward ;)