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kench1
27-05-2009, 17:18
While playing a few games of WOTR we have come across the rule that says models in a formation can never change their facing. Meaning that you cannot spin around the individual models in a movement tray to face the opposite direction.

So this means that base of 8 infantry will take around 4" of movement just to turn 180 degrees. As you measure from front right to rear left of the movement tray to see how far it has moved.

Which means that if a movement 6 formation has enemy within 6" and to its rear it cannot turn around to face them. as they can only move 3".

It also throws up some other very interesting restrictions for large formations.

A fromation of 3 companies deployed 1 deep and 3 wide will take 5" of movement to turn 90 degrees to its left or right, where it will now be 3 deep and 1 wide facing in the new direction.

It takes 3" for the base to pivot 90 degrees but the two outer bases will need to move 2" in from either side to all touch base. So a 6" move unit could turn 90 degrees about its centre and then move forward 1".

If the Formation was 1 company deep and 4 companies wide it could turn 90 degrees nad not move at all as the inner two bases must move 1" each to move into contact and the outer two bases would then have to move 3" for the unit to all touch again.

This means that a 5 wide formation with movemnt 6 cannot turn 90 degrees.

I think that turning 180 is slightly less unwieldy as you can turn the base around and leave the front rank base as the rear rank base (you are allowed to move command models into any company at the end of your move, so they can always move up to the front.

Meaning a 3x3 formation of Orcs can turn 90 gegrees and move 1" or turn 180 degrees and move 2".

But a 5 wide( front rank)then 4 wide (second rank) formation of orcs could not turn 90 degrees. It can of course wheel 6" but from its rear base this may not be very much !

Jorgen_CAB
27-05-2009, 20:06
That is not how movement work in the game. If you want to turn a company around it doesn't cost you any movement at all. Turning 90 degrees does not cost you anything either, but will count as about 1"-2" if you don't move any further since the company has shifted position slightly.

Each company simply move in any direction and is placed in a way that no part of the movement tray has moved any further than its movement allowance from where it started. This means that an infantry company can move 6" backwards and turn 180 degrees facing in a new direction.

The mentioning about turning the models are just for clarification that you are not allowed to turn the models, you turn and move the whole movement tray. There is no wheeling or turning in the game as there is in WFB. Each company move individually and may move as you wish as long as you end up in a legal formation in the end.

FuzzyOrb
27-05-2009, 22:50
Well, from my understanding of the rules, kench is actually correct.
If you spin a company around, the corners all move approx. 5'' (if you measure in a straight line).
So It would infact not me possible to spin around for a company within 6'' of the enemy, let alone entire formations.
However, it would be fine to move backwards without changing the facing, which is really odd.

I really don't like how this (seems to) work, but i just don't see any contradicting evidence...

Jorgen_CAB
27-05-2009, 22:56
No, that is not how you move. The mention of the corner is only because it usually are the corners that move the furthest, unless you move in a straight line forward, backward or sideways.
You could also look at the examples, you don't pay extra move because you wheel with a company. You simply measure the farthest point any part of the company tray has moved. That is quite clear in the rules. You may spin it around 1 million times if you wish, it will still not cost any movement. :)

Quannum
28-05-2009, 02:20
Jorgen's right on this. It only cites the corners as an applicative example.

Q

xxRavenxx
28-05-2009, 07:57
Localy we all play that turning uses up movement, otherwise, giving away priority is rediculously good.

Oh, you managed to flank my unit? Well I'll just spin round 180 degrees for free, then shift round the side of you...

lorelorn
28-05-2009, 09:54
You don't measure every inch that is moved in this game. Turning doesn't 'cost' any part of your movement. You simply ensure that no part of the base ends it's move more than the maximum move distance from where it started.



In pratice I find the easiest way to move is to measure from the corner that will move the fartherst to see how far I can actually move.

kench1
28-05-2009, 11:52
The problem is if you turn a single base 180 degrees to face in the opposite direction the two front corners swap position. So looking downwards on it the front right is now the rear left.

You cannot do this for free. So you must measure from corner to opposite corner to see how far the base has moved. which is 4"-5" dont have a base or tape measure in work.

I too though this was wrong until our gaming group discussed it properly.
If you dont play like this then as said priority is meaningless.

It also makes the game way more tactical and makes at the double moves really powerful. Getting round someones flank can become a real headache.

Infantry units may get flank charges if they can move far enough around the side of a unit and smaller cavalry units can even get round the rear of large infantry units, because they slow them to half movement and they can at the double to their side/rear.

This makes moving second vital at some parts of the game.

Edonil
28-05-2009, 13:02
If you dont play like this then as said priority is meaningless.

It also makes the game way more tactical and makes at the double moves really powerful. Getting round someones flank can become a real headache.


I really have to disagree with this point. Priority is less vital, yes, but anything but meaningless. And as far as making the game more tactical, only when you approach it from the perspective of one formation versus another formation. Proper tactics means that you don't threaten one flank, because, yes, your opponent can and will just turn to avoid it. So, you provide multiple threats- if you have a block of four companies of infantry, I'll place a formation on infantry in front of you, and threaten your flank with a formation of cavalry. You now have a choice- do you allow my cavalry or my infantry in your flank? This, to me, is far more tactical than turning this game into WFB style movement.

And beyond that, go read the WFB rules for movement, in which we have wheeling and turning as you are describing, and compare it to the WOTR rules- they are not the same.

kench1
28-05-2009, 13:47
I have read both thanks.

WOTR by having no part of a movement tray moving more than its maximum distance has got rules for wheeling, formation changes, 90 and 180 degree turns automatically built in.

If you want to move a large formation forward and to the left you must move the unit at its rightmost its full distance and leave the leftmost part mostly in place, this in effect becomes a wheel.

To clarify my argument about turning etc see these diagrams, not perfect due to font size discrepancies but you get the idea each letter 'A' and '-' is about 1 inch

ABCD
EFGH

if this unit turns around on the spot it is now

HGFE
DCBA

A has moved 4", so has DE&H
BCEF have moved 1"

Here is what happens in a 3 formation right turn

ABCDABCDABCD
EFGHEFGHEFGH

First they pivot on the spot

-EA--EA--EA-
-FB--FB--FB-
-GC--GC--GC-
-HD--HD--HD-

Then they move together using 2" of movement

---EAEAEA---
---FBFBFB---
---GCGCGC---
---HDHDHD---

They must now be in base contact like this or it would be an illegal formation, if it takes three 3" to turn 90 degrees and you have 3 inches left of movement the rear most base could move 3" forward, M(meaning the front base could move 1" after realignment)

So we end with one more inch moved forward from the position after the 90degree turn:

----EAEAEA--
----FBFBFB--
----GCGCGC--
----HDHDHD--

Unlike Warhammer you can move backwards or sideways at full movement.

I hope these silly diagrams are clear :)

Edonil
28-05-2009, 14:16
Unlike Warhammer you can move backwards or sideways at full movement.



It is this part that makes the argument you are putting forth least likely in terms of how it is meant to be interpreted. I've marched in formations, it's difficult enough to go forward, and moving sideways at the same pace is nearly (although not completely) impossible. While I can, and do, see the logic of what you're saying, I do not see it supported in the rules.

kench1
28-05-2009, 14:47
Ok, so how do you turn 90 degrees as an example. Under your understanding of the rules how much would it cost and why ?

jesters89
28-05-2009, 15:02
You know... I'm really attracted to the tone, models, and fluff of WotR, but my gosh did GW botch these rules. Something as basic as how to move your troops is unclear. That is just absurd. Anyway, my buddy and I came up with the same question and posted it over at last alliance. There were a few diagrams that were posted that I think address the issue well.

In short, there are two ways to interpret movement:
1) you have a zone of movement within which you can rotate, flip, move backwards and forwards all you want so long as no edge exceeds that zone.
2) you measure every single inch which means when an enemy is right behind you, more often than not you can do nothing but take it in the... you know.

Here is a link to the discussion. My gaming group went with the first interpretation. Only guide is to ensure no corners pop out of the zone of movement. We assume GW was going for flexibility with this game, not a repeat of warhammer. And if they are going for warhammer they left out some crucial movement options to avoid taking it in the... you know.

http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=view_replies&thread_id=63785&forum_id=44&page=1 (http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=view_replies&thread_id=63785&forum_id=44&page=3)

irishthump
28-05-2009, 15:06
Kench,

I am afraid you are wrong in your interpretation of the rules.
The last game of WOTR that I played was in my local GW, and was played the way you describe. (I might add, that a GW stff member was insisting this was the way to play, in direct contradiction to my demo game a few weeks earlier!)

Playing the game in the way you describe is quite simply unworkable. In my last game, my formation of Rangers (3 companies) was attacked by a formation or orcs and a Mordor troll. When being attacked from behind after falling back, it became impossible to turn and face my attackers! Since you argue it takes 5" of movement to "about face my" formation, and I was within 6" or my foes my movement was reduced to 3", I could not even complete a turn.

Absolutley ridiculous!

irishthump
28-05-2009, 15:14
You know... I'm really attracted to the tone, models, and fluff of WotR, but my gosh did GW botch these rules. Something as basic as how to move your troops is unclear. That is just absurd. Anyway, my buddy and I came up with the same question and posted it over at last alliance. There were a few diagrams that were posted that I think address the issue well.

http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=view_replies&thread_id=63785&forum_id=44&page=1 (http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=view_replies&thread_id=63785&forum_id=44&page=3)

Well said, Jester, you got there before me! I'm a regular on TLA as well and I relieved to see that thread! As I said, GW staff are interpreting the rules to gamers, and TBH they are not entirely to blame when something as simple as movement is written in sucha vague fashion.

kench1
28-05-2009, 15:41
Just to be clear, i am just putting all of this up for discussion. It is up to GW to let us all know how it should be played.

The reason why this came up is the manager of the local model shop called and asked GW how it should be done, and this was how it was handled at a gaming event in GW hq.

Some limit must be made or it is too simple for a 3x3 massive unit of orcs to turn 180 degrees and move 6", really unrealistic.

I eagerly await the answer to these issues.

To the last poster, if the GW in dublin have changed the rules to what i have just stated does that not indicate that i may be right. Pop into Models Inc on tuesday night and watch us play :)

irishthump
28-05-2009, 15:56
Just to be clear, i am just putting all of this up for discussion. It is up to GW to let us all know how it should be played.

The reason why this came up is the manager of the local model shop called and asked GW how it should be done, and this was how it was handled at a gaming event in GW hq.

Some limit must be made or it is too simple for a 3x3 massive unit of orcs to turn 180 degrees and move 6", really unrealistic.

I eagerly await the answer to these issues.

To the last poster, if the GW in dublin have changed the rules to what i have just stated does that not indicate that i may be right. Pop into Models Inc on tuesday night and watch us play :)

Kench, no offence intended, my fellow Mick!

I understand your comment about an "about face" seeming unrealistic, but to be honest, many of the rules are similar in tone. I mean if a formation can double it's move just by taking a courage test then I don't see why a formation can not turn to face it's attackers.

bufordbugman
28-05-2009, 16:30
I'm with jesters89 -- GW utterly botched their explanation of the WOTR movement rules (among others) for people to have such heated arguments about such a basic aspect of the game.

I'm with jesters89, jorgan, lorelorn, et al., on how to move. Basically, you have a zone x inches out from the tray within which you can move, spin, whatever, as long as no part of the base exceeds x inches (x being the unit's max move). The ambiguously expressed business in the rules text about "watching the corners" to make sure they don't move more than x inches simply means watching that a corner doesn't END UP more than x inches away, not that a corner can't have traversed more than x inches as you actually push the tray around. While reasonable people can disagree about this interpretation, the illustration on p. 32 (bottom middle) in consistent with what I've just explained, and is inconsistent with watching how far every corner actually travels, since you'll notice that the lower right corner has traversed more than 10 inches in that drawing, and yet the drawing depicts a legal move.

Unfortunately, even adopting the surely correct "zone" interpretation of moving (I use "zone" as an explanatory term only, knowing full well the rules don't talk about zones - I wish they had!) doesn't quite solve all the problems. Where do you measure out from on the tray? The illustrations in the book always depict a tray going straight forward. Fine, no problem when that's what one wants to do. But what happens if a tray plans to move 45 degrees to the right? From what part of the tray do you measure to get the line of max movement beyond which no part of the tray can move? In my group we have started first spinning the tray around its center point to face the way it wants to move, then measuring the max distance from the front edge, then moving the tray forward, angling it however we want so long as no part goes past the established line of max movement. This works very well as an easy to play solution, but it bothers me that the rules never describe the procedure.

All this makes me wonder what playing first edition Warhammer or 40k was like...maybe we are finding out!

irishthump
28-05-2009, 16:55
But what happens if a tray plans to move 45 degrees to the right? From what part of the tray do you measure to get the line of max movement beyond which no part of the tray can move?

I would say measure from the corner which has to move the furthest.

As I have the rules in front of me, here's something from rules which supports our original argument on turning, wheeling, spinning etc...

"As a formation moves, you can rearrange it's companies AS YOU WISH. Companies must remain touching but can be TURNED AROUND or arranged into a different legal configuration as you wish."

A couple of paragraphs ahead of this, the rulebook also states the a a company moves "ensuring that no part of the company ends it's move a greater distance than it's Move value away from its start position". It then goes on the recommend watching the corners of the companies to make sure this doea'nt happen - this is merely a guide, it's not meant to be interpreted as a way of measuring the exact move distance.

PS - sorry for quoting chunks of the text verbatim, but I think it's necessary in this case.

irishthump
28-05-2009, 17:09
Not to be beating this topic into the ground but....

If GW had meant for use to rigorously measure "corner to corner" then subject of tray sizes would be another nightmare! The lrger the movement try, the more distance it travelled by a corner as it turns, since the rules only give a MINIMUM size for trays, formations like The 9 are Abroad, The Fellowship and The 3 Hunters would find it nigh impossible to maneuver if they were modelled on special movement trays, as GW encourages in the rulebook.

Emissary
29-05-2009, 12:34
I agree with Kench. If you can just turn your tray around for free, then the trey is just turning 180 degrees which the rules have already said aren't allowed. Hence, the specific right front corner on the base is always the right front corner on the base. If you swing a movement tray around 180 degrees the right front corner has moved about 4-5".

In addition, in that zone of movement diagram in the book, it clearly states that the one on the right isn't allowed because the right corners have moved too far, even though only one of the corners is actually outside of the zone of movement diagram. For me that's all I need to know.

Jorgen_CAB
29-05-2009, 13:01
I do agree, after some consideration, that it is logical to measure the starting position of each corner of the movement tray when you move. Though, you move each company individually so you don't wheel and turn the whole formation. So it will take a three wide formation as many inches to turn 180 degrees as it will take a two wide formation since each company turn in place facing the new direction.
You simply measure the corner of the company that moved the farthest in the whole formation and then places the rest of the companies in a proper formation. I think that would be the most logical way to move the companies i guess.

Jorgen_CAB
29-05-2009, 14:07
Though, if you measure the corners it means that no infantry company will be able to turn 180 degrees if an enemy are withing 6", since it takes at lest 5" of movement to do so. Not even when you use move on the double will it be possible for a formation bigger then two companies to turn completely around.

So, it will produce some strange results as well.

I would probably house rule that a formation could at least turn 180 degrees but move no further in a turn and archers would count as if they moved half speed, just as if you exited a defensible terrain object.

irishthump
29-05-2009, 23:27
I agree with Kench. If you can just turn your tray around for free, then the trey is just turning 180 degrees which the rules have already said aren't allowed. Hence, the specific right front corner on the base is always the right front corner on the base. If you swing a movement tray around 180 degrees the right front corner has moved about 4-5".



well, according to the rulebook diagram on pg 25, a movement tray has a front, a back and 2 sides. Note that: 2 sides, not a left side and a right side.

Emissary
29-05-2009, 23:42
Either way, a specific corner's starting and ending positions may not be further apart then the formation's move value.


Not even when you use move on the double will it be possible for a formation bigger then two companies to turn completely around

Even when you double move you can't do it if you don't have enough move in a single move. An at the double move is a completed regular move, then a courage test, then another complete regular move. It is not one double length move.

HRM
31-05-2009, 13:34
...If you swing a movement tray around 180 degrees the right front corner has moved about 4-5"...

Wouldn't all three corners but the pivot corner have moved the same distance...? Keep in my mind I haven't played any games of WOTR ring yet, nor am I any good at math/geometry, so if this is a stupid question, I apologize.

Jorgen_CAB
31-05-2009, 16:23
Even when you double move you can't do it if you don't have enough move in a single move. An at the double move is a completed regular move, then a courage test, then another complete regular move. It is not one double length move.

Well, I'm aware of that, that is why I stated that you could do that if you only have a one or two company formation. If you only have two companies you may turn 90 degrees with both and then another 90 degrees with move on the double. You should be able to do that if you have two companies.

Jorgen_CAB
31-05-2009, 16:26
Then there is another argument to this debate. There are only a minimum size of the tray. So, if you bring a tray that is bigger than the minimum you will have serious problems if you measure every turn of the company.

irishthump
31-05-2009, 20:45
Then there is another argument to this debate. There are only a minimum size of the tray. So, if you bring a tray that is bigger than the minimum you will have serious problems if you measure every turn of the company.

Well said Jorgen, I brought this up earlier...




Not to be beating this topic into the ground but....

If GW had meant for use to rigorously measure "corner to corner" then subject of tray sizes would be another nightmare! The lrger the movement try, the more distance it travelled by a corner as it turns, since the rules only give a MINIMUM size for trays, formations like The 9 are Abroad, The Fellowship and The 3 Hunters would find it nigh impossible to maneuver if they were modelled on special movement trays, as GW encourages in the rulebook.

The rulebook even goes as far as to say that tray size has no effect on playing the game!

Llew
01-06-2009, 17:48
Some limit must be made or it is too simple for a 3x3 massive unit of orcs to turn 180 degrees and move 6", really unrealistic.



It's not, really. Stand facing one direction. Walk ahead briskly and see how long it takes you to cover that distance. Now, pivot 180 degrees and return the way you came, back to your starting point. It took almost the same amount of time, right?

There is nothing unrealistic about a company doing an about face, or a right face or left face for that matter, and moving the same distance as a normal move. (Luckily, they're not forced to physically march backwards or like crabs.)

The thing some people may or may not be keeping in mind is the command company and how far it moves. There are a lot of holdovers from thinking of WFB and dealing with the formations as static blocks. That's not the case in WotR. Here, each company would basically pivot in place. Then, you have to move the command company to the new front of the formation.

So, while the turn costs nothing, the entire unit may move relatively little as the command company would use most of that movement up. (And in some formations, there could be some very odd-looking moves as various companies reorganize where they fall in the formation.)

Generally speaking, the movement rules work best when different facing is assumed to be free. There are enough inhibitors in the rest of the movement rules that keep anything too bizarre from happening. And movement is certainly orders of magnitude more believeable than some of the oddities found in WFB.

RulesJD
01-06-2009, 20:21
[QUOTE=Llew;3632914]The thing some people may or may not be keeping in mind is the command company and how far it moves. There are a lot of holdovers from thinking of WFB and dealing with the formations as static blocks. That's not the case in WotR. Here, each company would basically pivot in place. Then, you have to move the command company to the new front of the formation. QUOTE]

I hate to jump into this debate as there have been very many excellent points made. For me, this quote is the most salient point and we've had this debate to some extent in our store.


If you follow Kench1's reasoning then the minimum cost of an about face is between 4 1/2 and 5 inches meaning that no infantry company could turn around with an enemy nearby. This seems unrealistic but, I think it follows the letter of the rules "most" closely.

We have considered an about face with the cost being how far the models would move in "switching places" which is about 1 inch for a single infantry tray. Thus, a 3 deep formation of companies would cost about 6 inches of movement for the command group to get to the other side of the formation. This feels more real but, is not supported by the letter of the rules.

(This rule will also be critical to the undead who can spirit walk through your formation and then possibly turn around to face your rear before charging-very possible with the 24" move ability)

This must be addressed by GW as it is too fundamental to leave for everyones house rules.

Jorgen_CAB
01-06-2009, 22:50
Ok, the middle diagram on page 32 depict a company that has moved and turned slightly. Based on the argument that you measure the corners that particular move should be illegal. The bottom right corner will have moved further than 10".

And please don't say that the diagram is not a valid point of argument here. It really must be a valid argument since it depicts a valid move, a one where at least one corner has moved further than 10". :)

irishthump
02-06-2009, 00:11
The thing some people may or may not be keeping in mind is the command company and how far it moves. There are a lot of holdovers from thinking of WFB and dealing with the formations as static blocks. That's not the case in WotR. Here, each company would basically pivot in place. Then, you have to move the command company to the new front of the formation.

So, while the turn costs nothing, the entire unit may move relatively little as the command company would use most of that movement up. (And in some formations, there could be some very odd-looking moves as various companies reorganize where they fall in the formation.)



Moving the command company to the front can be done for free, check the rules for command companies on page 60 of the rulebook.
It says that after ANY ACTION, be it moving, fighting, whatever the companies must be rearranged so that the command company is in the correct place.

Jorgen_CAB
02-06-2009, 12:53
How do you move in the game?

From the ‘Rule Book’, page 32.

To move a company, pick it up and move it in any direction, ensuring that no part of the company ends the move a distance greater then its Move Value away from its starting position.

Step 1
You pick one company from the formation, preferably the one that will move the farthest distance.

Step 2
Pick a direction to move. That is right, you only get to pick one direction. No snaking between formations or turning corners in one single move.

Step 3
Move the company to its destination and make sure it has not moved any further then its 'Move value' from the start position.

Step 4
Repeat the same for all the other companies until they have all moved and are in a legal formation.

Appendix
No company may move through impassable terrain or enemy formations. They may not move through any friendly formation except companies in their own formation.

The rule book do not mention any other way that you move, therefore you can't measure any turning because there are no such things to consider. You simply pick up the company and place it at the destination facing in any direction, no turning... no wheeling... no nothing of the sort. Measure the distance traveled between the two points.

This is what I believe are the correct way to play the game, this is also supported both by the text and by the diagrams on page 32.

irishthump
02-06-2009, 16:03
How do you move in the game?

From the ‘Rule Book’, page 32.


Step 1
You pick one company from the formation, preferably the one that will move the farthest distance.

Step 2
Pick a direction to move. That is right, you only get to pick one direction. No snaking between formations or turning corners in one single move.

Step 3
Move the company to its destination and make sure it has not moved any further then its 'Move value' from the start position.

Step 4
Repeat the same for all the other companies until they have all moved and are in a legal formation.

Appendix
No company may move through impassable terrain or enemy formations. They may not move through any friendly formation except companies in their own formation.

The rule book do not mention any other way that you move, therefore you can't measure any turning because there are no such things to consider. You simply pick up the company and place it at the destination facing in any direction, no turning... no wheeling... no nothing of the sort. Measure the distance traveled between the two points.

This is what I believe are the correct way to play the game, this is also supported both by the text and by the diagrams on page 32.

Hmmm... why do I get the feeling I have seen this post somewhere before?:)

Llew
02-06-2009, 16:59
Moving the command company to the front can be done for free, check the rules for command companies on page 60 of the rulebook.
It says that after ANY ACTION, be it moving, fighting, whatever the companies must be rearranged so that the command company is in the correct place.

I like that even better. ;)

We've been making it more complex than we needed to. I already love the movement in this game. Cavalry can actually move like cavalry. Very dynamic.

Jorgen_CAB
02-06-2009, 19:38
Hmmm... why do I get the feeling I have seen this post somewhere before?:)

Well yes... there is a way more heated discussion on the same topic here if anyone would like to read it. :)

Discussion about Movement (http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=view_replies&thread_id=64256&forum_id=44&page=5)

irishthump
02-06-2009, 20:55
Well yes... there is a way more heated discussion on the same topic here if anyone would like to read it. :)

Discussion about Movement (http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=view_replies&thread_id=64256&forum_id=44&page=5)


Yes, I'm well aware of it... I'm Irishmaia on TLA BTW!