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Nicha11
28-05-2009, 00:12
I recentley saw a post hypothisizing that the top 3 armies, VC, DE and DOC are engaged in a "Triangle"

Essentially Demons will stomp VC,

VC will Stomp DE

And DE will Stomp DOC.

So what is Warseers view on this theory?



Glossary=
VC= Vampire Counts
DOC= Demons of Chaos
DE= Dark Elves

W0lf
28-05-2009, 00:51
Thats bout right lol.

Laughingmonk
28-05-2009, 01:25
In this case....

Good Player will stomp Bad Player

stonetroll
28-05-2009, 02:15
Are you taking the regular power builds in consideration here, or general matchups?

VC = raise spam

DE = Black guard + lots of small stuff backed up with LOTS of shooting & power dice

Daemons = BT + dual tzeentch herald (1BSB with sundering) + khorne herald on jugger

In this case you'd be about right I think

My_Idea_Of_Fun
28-05-2009, 02:20
Armies don't just 'stomp' others. There are so many factors to consider: player skill, terrain, first turn, and the luck involved especially with magic and shooting.

branabus
28-05-2009, 02:25
And my shooty 3000 point High Elves with Teclis, a High Elf Archmage, 3 mages, 30 archers 10 Reavers, 10 Shadow Warriors and 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers stomp the lot of you.

Laughingmonk
28-05-2009, 05:18
And my shooty 3000 point High Elves with Teclis, a High Elf Archmage, 3 mages, 30 archers 10 Reavers, 10 Shadow Warriors and 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers stomp the lot of you.

I take your shooting and raise it by 20 hochland long rifles. See, I can theory hammer too!

fubukii
28-05-2009, 07:06
And my shooty 3000 point High Elves with Teclis, a High Elf Archmage, 3 mages, 30 archers 10 Reavers, 10 Shadow Warriors and 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers stomp the lot of you.


i take that army list, and raise you somethign i acutally use!

RIng of hotek and shades gg :)

W0lf
28-05-2009, 10:33
Yes meet that 25pt item that screws your whole army!

But its not broken... honest.

Captain Plowman
28-05-2009, 12:40
Ring of Hotek is overrated. Its a psycological thing. I have a mate who never leaves home without it, but when i play him i cast like it's not even there. Sure, sometimes it goes wrong and i fry myself, but for the majority of the time my spells come off without a hitch. If they're packing the Ring, chances are they will be light on other magical defense, so if you are bold and just cast away, you can have a really good magic phase.

branabus
28-05-2009, 14:10
I take your shooting and raise it by 20 hochland long rifles. See, I can theory hammer too!

74 shots/turn.
Beat that.

W0lf
28-05-2009, 15:07
Ring of Hotek is overrated. Its a psycological thing.

Yer right..

Mercules
28-05-2009, 15:16
Ring of Hotek is overrated. Its a psycological thing. I have a mate who never leaves home without it, but when i play him i cast like it's not even there. Sure, sometimes it goes wrong and i fry myself, but for the majority of the time my spells come off without a hitch. If they're packing the Ring, chances are they will be light on other magical defense, so if you are bold and just cast away, you can have a really good magic phase.

My Ogre Butchers chuckle at Dark Elves with the Ring of Hotek... and then cry when Lifetaker starts shooting.

Witchblade
28-05-2009, 17:42
Ring of Hotek is overrated. Its a psycological thing. I have a mate who never leaves home without it, but when i play him i cast like it's not even there. Sure, sometimes it goes wrong and i fry myself, but for the majority of the time my spells come off without a hitch. If they're packing the Ring, chances are they will be light on other magical defense, so if you are bold and just cast away, you can have a really good magic phase.
On the top of my head, 2 dice: 1/6 chance of miscast. 3 dice: 13/36 chance of miscast. Note that you cannot get IF anymore and you still have to reach casting value as well. Casting Gateway is suicide.

fubukii
28-05-2009, 17:48
ring of hotek is amazing, it actuallys stops any casting of over 3d6 in it tracks.

and even with 3d6 casting your chance to miscast it pretty good, being about 33%
but hey if you want to throw our spells at my unit still thats fine with me :)

i agree with wolf 25 pts for the ring of hotek is totally balanced and not overpowered in the slightest. Next on my agenda is that nurgle chars should have 4 atks base :P

Frankly
28-05-2009, 18:02
74 shots/turn.
Beat that.

Yeah he most likely would if he had 20 H.Rifles.

I'm sure your 3000pt list would win against alot of 2K lists.


At the OP:

For me at least your right on money.

Voss
28-05-2009, 18:27
74 shots/turn.
Beat that.

Wait. Thats it, in a 3000 point shooty army? Thats just sad. And ample reason why high elves don't make good shooty armies.

Empire, Orcs and Dark elves can throw that many (or more) missiles around in less than 1000 points! Even Dwarves can do better than that, and 3 of those armies have better warmachines, and dwarves/empire have substantially better missile weapons.

Condottiere
28-05-2009, 18:29
RoH is meant to stop spellcasters thinning the ranks of BG or eliminating Character magic items. It's like a force field.

Malorian
28-05-2009, 18:32
Wait. Thats it, in a 3000 point shooty army? Thats just sad. And ample reason why high elves don't make good shooty armies.

Empire, Orcs and Dark elves can throw that many (or more) missiles around in less than 1000 points! Even Dwarves can do better than that, and 3 of those armies have better warmachines, and dwarves/empire have substantially better missile weapons.

Don't forget the shooty gnoblar army of doom :D

We're talking 40 shots for every 40 points there :evilgrin:

Voss
28-05-2009, 19:04
Don't forget the shooty gnoblar army of doom :D

We're talking 40 shots for every 40 points there :evilgrin:

I considered including it, especially with the leadbelchers as well, but figured someone would quibble about ranges. ;)


As to the rock, paper, scissors idea. I'm not so certain. Its partly a matter of build, of course, but also I'm not so sure that Daemons 'stomp' VC or that VC 'stomps' DE. There are a fair amount of headache inducing shenanigans in all 3 lists that prevent an easy win for anyone.

On the other hand, or paw, or claw, I do think those 3 armies stand a bit above most of the others (though DE have the smallest gap between the next group of armies).

Frankly
28-05-2009, 21:06
Where do people put L.M. amongst that list?

slingersam
28-05-2009, 21:24
They put lizardmen 4th, yet some people rate higher:rolleyes:

stonetroll
28-05-2009, 21:31
I think LM are in the same Niche as Daemons... they struggle vs DE (non-replacable troops) and can easily wipe VC (discard 6's/cupped hands etc)

Mercules
28-05-2009, 22:48
Don't forget the shooty gnoblar army of doom :D

We're talking 40 shots for every 40 points there :evilgrin:

Malorian... I am surprised at you since you play Ogres.

You gain 40 shots for every 145 points. You need to take the Bulls unit(105 naked) for each Gnoblar Fighter unit. ;)

Shiodome
28-05-2009, 23:23
74 shots/turn.
Beat that.

74?! goblins can only manage 883 shots and 10 bolt throwers for the same cost :cries:

W0lf
29-05-2009, 00:39
I would LOVE to see you get all those goblins shooting in one turn. Its pretty much impossible.

Thats beside the point though isnt is?

PARTYCHICORITA
29-05-2009, 00:53
I recentley saw a post hypothisizing that the top 3 armies, VC, DE and DOC are engaged in a "Triangle"


You have it wrong; it's not DOC, it's DOW. Those guys are pure evil.


Ring of Hotek is overrated. Its a psycological thing.

I actually agree with this. It's a great item, sure; but that's it.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-05-2009, 01:06
The problem with the ring of hotek is it wont work against every army. Ogres, tomb kings and vampires can just laugh it off. Besides, once you know where it is the dark elf player has to keep his battle line very close knit in order to protect all of his troops from magic.

I think for those players that rely on blasting chunks out of their opponent's hammers or anvils with magic its a big deal, I couldn't say it would really bother me as that's not how I play.


Sure its nasty in those "shade deathstars" (that I'll never ever see) but they break the game for a numebr of reasons anyway.

Laughingmonk
29-05-2009, 03:02
74 shots/turn.
Beat that.

74 shots? In 3000 points?

Well lets see here....

30 outriders for 630 Points.

That's 90 strength four armor piercing shots per turn mounted on a fast and maneuverable platform, with a usable facing so I can actually get off 90 shots per turn.

Not to mention the rest of the army, which will include, at the very least, 50 additional missile troops, the requisite two cannons, Helstorm/helblasters, and archer detachments.

I'm sorry, but while high elves have their strengths, out gunning empire is not one of them.

Condottiere
29-05-2009, 06:05
It's hard to outgun either Dwarves or Empire, but get a hill, and RxB troops can shoot 4 bolts per 0.8" frontage. 6 bolts if you place another regiment on the base of the hill.

Lord Dan
29-05-2009, 09:11
74 shots/turn.
Beat that.
37 DE crossbowmen. 370 points. 74 shots. S3 Armor piercing.
Your entire HE army. 3,000 points. 74 shots. S3.

Now let's see what you can do at 2,000 points.


I would LOVE to see you get all those goblins shooting in one turn. Its pretty much impossible.
One very dead giant.


Sure its nasty in those "shade deathstars" (that I'll never ever see) but they break the game for a numebr of reasons anyway.
Not that I disagree with you, but I find it interesting that a few months of playing the army has completely trumped the "theoryhammer" than came out when the rules for the RoH were released. I can't count the number of complaint threads that popped up about how it would "break" the game for magic heavy armies, and how unfair it was. Just an observation.

branabus
29-05-2009, 10:38
*Gulps*
But... mine'll hit and yours won't!
And magic!
So I beat you.
Anyway, isn't the Ring of Hotek only effective within 12"?

Gazak Blacktoof
29-05-2009, 11:19
I can't count the number of complaint threads that popped up about how it would "break" the game for magic heavy armies, and how unfair it was. Just an observation.

I wouldn't have been one of them anyway but yes, there doesn't seem to be as much negativity surrounding it.

ASF black guard, hydras and harpies are what create the biggest balance issues in my opinion.

Gaargod
29-05-2009, 12:00
Interestingly, there is a slight pattern. Works well if people take specific builds..

Mannfred/vampire lord + blood knights deathstar (drakenhof banner, etc)
Kairos + all the magic heavy death in the world for daemons
Shadestar (ring of hotek, MR3, 2 hydras, some dark riders for core, characters)

Mannfred + blood knights should beat the shadestar (there's T3 with no save. Anything that manages to get them will kill them) and raising won't care about RoH.

But shadestar should beat Kairos' magic cartel - casting with over 3 dice at them is practically suicide, and their MR3 should stop spells under that.

But Kairos + horrors + tzeentch herald will probably eat the bloodknights - they'll have a lot of DD to dispel raising, and all those flaming magic missles will seriously hurt.


But of course, this is using very extreme army lists. If everyone had average luck, equal skill and good lists, then you might see a pattern emerge, but normally its just not going to happen.

Lord Dan
29-05-2009, 17:01
*Gulps*
But... mine'll hit and yours won't!
And magic!
So I beat you.
Anyway, isn't the Ring of Hotek only effective within 12"?

12" creates a 24" diameter bubble. That's a pretty big area, considering a unit you target only needs to be touching the bubble.

W0lf
29-05-2009, 17:47
Yer people overlook this. Go measure out a 24" diameter bubble.

Sorry but ring is easily the most broken magic item in the game. Its out and out the best anti-magic item and cost 25 pts.

Play DE vs HE w/teclis and take the ring. Watch him cry as his 475 pt mage is screwed and your effectivly 450 pts up.

Shamfrit
29-05-2009, 18:02
Hotek didn't stop me casting Spirit of the Forge on the Cold One Knight unit that had it, and the BSB with Hydra Banner...

Mind, I did roll 1,2,3,4,5, I laughed for about fifteen minutes; then promptly rolled double 1 for wounds...

Mercules
29-05-2009, 18:07
Yer people overlook this. Go measure out a 24" diameter bubble.

Nice one W0lf.

On a 4x6' table. 24" diameter is 48" across at it's widest point. 4' is 48". So when in the middle of the two sides the bubble extends from table edge to table edge. Sitting in the middle of a quarter, it about covers the table quarter. So, can anyone deploy their army in a quarter of a table and pretty much keep it in that area while it moves across the board? :) I could.

Paz
29-05-2009, 18:09
I play DoCh and i've got rly hard play with DE. Vs VC... let's say zombie spam <<< fleshhounds, wraiths <<< flamers. This game is sooo easy, I only must roll a die. :)

Gazak Blacktoof
29-05-2009, 18:24
24" diameter is 48" across at it's widest point.

It most certainly is not.

Condottiere
29-05-2009, 18:41
True - 72".

Condottiere
29-05-2009, 18:44
Wait - it's 85.5" if you count the corners.

Shiodome
29-05-2009, 18:52
wait it's 7,238" cubed if you count height above and below the table! nerf this! :o

er i think.... about 15 years since i did maths at school, V=(4 * pi (12^3))/3)? *shrug*

Draconian77
29-05-2009, 18:55
The Ring covers enough of the battlefield to protect 90% of my units in most cases, however the only opponents that get hot under the collar about it are the 10+ PD armies. (Excluding the VC's of course.)

Khemri, Ogres, Counts and Empire(Arch Lector+Pope Mobile+Priests, lots of bound spells!) all laugh at my piddly 3 Dispel Dice and 2 Scrolls. As well as my regualr canny HE opponent who take the lores with all the low casting spells so that he doesn't need to chuck large amounts of dice at them, aided great by 1 Mage being able to pick 2 low casting-value spells. If you brought Teclis its your own fault. :D

Then again my view is that if you come to a pick-up game with 10+ PD you're not exactly there for a fun game anyway. (Just my opinion.)

PARTYCHICORITA
29-05-2009, 22:02
The Triangle is a Square

Frankly
29-05-2009, 23:16
.... (Excluding the VC's of course.)



On day two at the top half of the tables you don't see alot of IoN spammers :), zombie raising can be a key tactic, but vanhels, curse, wind are game winning spells that are all very worried to see The ring on the table.

I actually run the ring in my list because of VC.

kardar233
29-05-2009, 23:27
On day two at the top half of the tables you don't see alot of IoN spammers :), zombie raising can be a key tactic, but vanhels, curse, wind are game winning spells that are all very worried to see The ring on the table.

I actually run the ring in my list because of VC.

A couple of things quickly:

1. Curse of Years is rarely a game-winning spell, as most units you'll bother to cast it on will have MR, and even if it isn't dispelled it won't do much until the second turn, in which you'll have had 2 chances to dispel. This is often scrolled in my games.
2. Wind is never a game-winning spell except against SADs. Doesn't do enough except when taking out those Jezzail teams.
3. Vanhel's is a game winning spell, but it should only be cast on 2 dice unless the caster is a Necro (with Power Stone, using 3). The first case has a very small chance of miscasting even with the Ring (assuming you can get it into a place where it'll be useful against VHDM, which is more difficult than it sounds), and the second case, well, it's a Necromancer, who cares if he miscasts.
4. Invocation spam should never be Zombies at tournament levels, should be Skeletons (for the SCR) or Ghouls (for the ACR and resilience).

EvC
29-05-2009, 23:51
Hehe, different players, different styles. I prefer casting the big VC spells, the Gazes and the Curses and the Wind of Undeath, and will only tend to bother with Invocations if my opponents force me, with things like the Ring of Hotek or Banner of Sundering ;)

Mind you, since Wind of Undeath is an area effect spell, the Ring doesn't really stop me csting that, unless they get nice and close :D

Frankly
30-05-2009, 00:15
A couple of things quickly:

1. Curse of Years is rarely a game-winning spell...

2. Wind is never a game-winning spell ...

3. Vanhel's is a game winning spell, but it should only be cast on 2 dice unless the caster is a Necro (with Power Stone, using 3)

4. Invocation spam should never be Zombies at tournament levels, should be Skeletons (for the SCR) or Ghouls (for the ACR and resilience).

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Curse isn't just our best 'I kill you spell' its a 8+ all unit nuking spell ... 8+, think about units tar-pitted in combat and think about enemy unit size and ranks ... fear. Its one of our best all round tactical spells for draining out dice pools and scrolls. It just controls magic phases, its on par with vanhels for a turn 3-4 spell casting and game control. Curse is the reason why I choose master of the black arts on my general. It wins games.

Wind is our primary first and second turn control spell, if your playing a 12+ magic phase and playing a bunker type list, then this is either drawing out a big dispel or sets up a strong defense by creating new units, now its not the fact that your creating etherals, its the ability to control where you put them, this can either benefit your battleline or hinder your opponents turn. For me atleast it sets the tone and puts first turn pressure on his dispel scrolls/anti magic.

Only good against SAD? What about every other support unit out there? What about heavy cavalry? What about MSU type lists?

In turn 1 or 2 what else are you going to spend your power dice on? :)

I always think of Curse and Wind as my big counter attack on dispel pools, they flush out most everything in the first 3 turns, letting you dominate the second half of the game.


Vanhels on 2 dice? Its 7+, how badly do you want to break open the game? Not only have to lessened your chance to cast it by not throwing 3 dice, but it way to easy to dispel with dice.

Yeah, yeah, I know no-one is going to sit there and spam zombies, people are going to bring units back to full strength turn 5 and 6 ... I know, my bad.

fubukii
30-05-2009, 01:05
i disagree with invo on zombies... try raise dead, vanhel charging a thrister i am sure u will want to keep those zombies alive :)

Gokamok
30-05-2009, 08:42
With regard to the question originally asked in this thread, it seems that DoC will beat both DE and VC when playing with as much cheese as possible. (in this case, the 08-09 UK GT)
It is likely true that most powered up DE armies will have a cakewalk against a Kairos list (but so will anti-magic VC), but with the current trend of using Bloodthirster lists packed with horrors and some mobile units, DE armies just get torn apart by Deamons while VC at least have a fighting chance.

W0lf
30-05-2009, 18:16
Actually DE suffer more vs Kairous then any other daemon list imo.

A fair few players bring just the ring as magic defence.

With horrors and kairous its VERY easy to spam spells at low castings. Bluescribes bounds+Kairous casting D6/2D6 S4 on 2 dice, 1 dice flikering from horrors all equates to a horrible mess of T3 elite infantry.

Ive seen a game where the DEs were just getting obliterated unit by unit due to spam castings of low level magic missiles.

Not to mention what Flamers can do to DE.

fubukii
30-05-2009, 19:32
Actually DE suffer more vs Kairous then any other daemon list imo.

A fair few players bring just the ring as magic defence.

With horrors and kairous its VERY easy to spam spells at low castings. Bluescribes bounds+Kairous casting D6/2D6 S4 on 2 dice, 1 dice flikering from horrors all equates to a horrible mess of T3 elite infantry.

Ive seen a game where the DEs were just getting obliterated unit by unit due to spam castings of low level magic missiles.

Not to mention what Flamers can do to DE.

i can attest to that, i played a game vs des with my doc in 3k

I took
kairos
thrister
2 heralds of tz
4 horror units
2 hound units
2 furies units
18 flamers

despite having a low amount of starting dice for a DOC army at 3k (14.)
and he actually had the ring plus a couple mages, the sheer number of spells i threw out over whelemed him

I did the following
Kairos flickering flame 1d6+2
kairos fireball 1d6 +2
4 horror spells 1d6
took lore of beasts on 1 herald would beast cower/crows feast/wolf hunts 2-3 d6 dependings on which spell
herald 2 had lore of fire, would firey blast. 2d6/3
depending on how many dice he had left and i had left id do a firey blast on 2d66+2 with kairos
last dice for boon
then gift of chaos or another cheaper missle spell

Hrogoff the Destructor
30-05-2009, 20:14
Nice one W0lf.

On a 4x6' table. 24" diameter is 48" across at it's widest point. 4' is 48". So when in the middle of the two sides the bubble extends from table edge to table edge. Sitting in the middle of a quarter, it about covers the table quarter. So, can anyone deploy their army in a quarter of a table and pretty much keep it in that area while it moves across the board? :) I could.

You're thinking of radius, not diameter. 24 inchs in diameter would be just a 24 inch circle. 24 inch radius would be a 48 inch circle.

Mercules
31-05-2009, 02:17
You're thinking of radius, not diameter. 24 inchs in diameter would be just a 24 inch circle. 24 inch radius would be a 48 inch circle.

Yes, I gathered that about 10 posts back but I didn't feel I needed to go back and edit it since someone already mentioned it.

Awilla the Hun
31-05-2009, 10:21
Nonsense, Comrades! The Red Guards will stomp you all with the glorious Spirit of the Revolution behind it! Long live Comrade von Stahl! Death to the Magocratic Daemons, the Sadistic Dark Elves, and the Forks Washington dwelling Aristocratic-Necrotic Vampire Counts!

Lord Dan
01-06-2009, 04:22
Nonsense, Comrades! The Red Guards will stomp you all with the glorious Spirit of the Revolution behind it! Long live Comrade von Stahl! Death to the Magocratic Daemons, the Sadistic Dark Elves, and the Forks Washington dwelling Aristocratic-Necrotic Vampire Counts!

Well, I'm lost...

Laughingmonk
01-06-2009, 06:19
Did I just hear the sound of a train wreck in the distance?

Condottiere
01-06-2009, 07:04
At this tech level, that would be a wagon train.

eyeolas
01-06-2009, 11:32
As a complete generalisation, I agree with the OP

The mass low strength firepower of DE is very good at getting daemons down, and the menouverability and lots of small units means daemons have a hard time with it, but VCs can shrug off the shooting due to raising and can counter fast moving stuff with van hells and raising new units. The ring and pendent are also mostly worthless because VC's 3 main spells (raise, invoc and van hells) are all cast on friendly units with only 1 or 2 dice, so both MR and increased miscast chances aren't going to do much to that magic phase, then daemons vs VCs, the better version of unbreakable, the better basic troops, the high quantitity of high power troops that can rack up a large CR and the ward save for countering any death stars the VC player might throw makes them very much in control vs VCs

However, thats is a complete generalisation and things are subject to circumstance

Gazak Blacktoof
01-06-2009, 11:42
That rock-paper-scissors effect makes playing great games rather difficult sometimes. Essentially in order to level the field each army has to compromise on its strong points in order that it doesn't walk all over one type of army and get stomped on by another.

eyeolas
01-06-2009, 11:47
I recon it could be a good thing. People can't win tornaments nowadays by hoping they play the right army 5 times in a row, you now need to get away from your 1 trick ponies and build a balanced, all comers list.

fubukii
01-06-2009, 12:39
As a complete generalisation, I agree with the OP

The mass low strength firepower of DE is very good at getting daemons down, and the menouverability and lots of small units means daemons have a hard time with it, but VCs can shrug off the shooting due to raising and can counter fast moving stuff with van hells and raising new units. The ring and pendent are also mostly worthless because VC's 3 main spells (raise, invoc and van hells) are all cast on friendly units with only 1 or 2 dice, so both MR and increased miscast chances aren't going to do much to that magic phase, then daemons vs VCs, the better version of unbreakable, the better basic troops, the high quantitity of high power troops that can rack up a large CR and the ward save for countering any death stars the VC player might throw makes them very much in control vs VCs

However, thats is a complete generalisation and things are subject to circumstance

its mostly accurate but of course theres always exceptions.

Death Korp
01-06-2009, 16:29
I recon it could be a good thing. People can't win tornaments nowadays by hoping they play the right army 5 times in a row, you now need to get away from your 1 trick ponies and build a balanced, all comers list.

I agree actually.

I think the steryotipical 'Triangle' the OP has shown us is great, as it causes people with 'one trick pony' lists to actually think about what they are doing.

Although it is nice for that 'trick' to pull off occasionlly :D

DK

Abhorash.
02-06-2009, 01:52
Exactly Correct, I also think Woc and Wood Elves come in 5th and 4th.

Griffery
02-06-2009, 02:17
I mostly agree with the OP but of course there are always exceptions. I think the skill of the players and also the choice of the army can decide the outcome of the game. There are also other variables, such as terrain and also jsut basic rolling of dice that can affect the outcome of the game.

sulla
02-06-2009, 08:10
Play DE vs HE w/teclis and take the ring. Watch him cry as his 475 pt mage is screwed and your effectivly 450 pts up.

Of course, Teclis is probably worth about 600pts anyway so no other army should feel particularly sorry for Raistlin...