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View Full Version : Mighty Blow against Hard to kill and the likes



Nedorus
29-05-2009, 16:12
Mighty Blow and how Lutzs is different from Boromirs has been discussed in length elswhere. I have a different question however concerning Hard to kill and other such powers.

Mighty blow sais: each hit causes one casualty.

Hard to kill sais: if the model recieves a number of hits greater or equal to its resistace you roll on the table instead of removing the model as a casualty.

My question is this: Do I apply hard to kill if a mighty blow hits?

Most people answer this with a clear yes. They simply state that I have to roll on the table once per mighty blow hit just as if the resistance was 1.

Somehow i read this completly different and would like to check which is correct and where I am "missreading" the rules (if indeed I should read them wrong).

Here's how I read the rules:

Let's say Boromir hits a Balrog once (causes one automatic hit in a duel).
I apply each rule in turn and see what it does:

1. Regular rules for removing casualties: I need to have X hits for one casualty where X is the resistance of the target. The Balrog has resistance 2 so nothing happens.

2. Hard to kill: I may roll on the table if I have a number of hits equal to or greater than the resistance of the target (actually one roll for each multiple of the resistance). The rules also explicitly state that this supercedes the regular rules for removing casualties. Since I only have one hit and the resistance is 2 I can't roll on the table. Therefore nothing happens.

3. Mighty Blow: Each hit causes one casualty. I score one hit so the Balrog is removed as a casualty.

My conclusion is, that in this situation I DO NOT roll on the hard to kill table. (Actually the balrog has its own table but otherwise uses the Hard to kill rules.) The Balrog is simply removed as a casualty...

Please keep in mind that Hard kill sais "number of hits" and in no way mentions casualties. Please also keep in mind that Mighty Blow DOES NOT reduce the resistance in any way!

Oh yes I am aware that my interpretation of the rules (the way I currently read them) make Boromir the perfect Monsterhunter. Balrog BANG, Sauron DEAD, Gwaihir A GONER etc ... But it is how I read the rules ....

Please let me know where I'm wrong or that I'm correct .. whichever the case may be.

cheers
Nedorus

Angelust
30-05-2009, 07:51
I think RAW, unfortunately, would affirm your interpretation. Personally, I would strongly encourage any player I meet to interpret it as reducing the model/formation's Resilience to 1 in game terms, so that each hit is enough to remove a model or roll on a chart, etc. There's just no way the designers meant for Boromir or Lurtz to be THAT good...

Emissary
30-05-2009, 14:34
Agreed, that's how we've been playing it too.

Lord Asuryan
30-05-2009, 17:16
aye, me too. bormir is already REALLY good, 6 might points???!!! and lurtz conferring it to his formation, well...
overall, it seems more likely that you just get a roll on the hard to kill table-you kill cav outright, tho!

Nedorus
30-05-2009, 20:07
OK, so Emissary and Lord Asuryan if I understand you correctly, you do confirm (as Angelust writes) that the rules are WRITTEN the way I read them but NOT INTENDED?

This gives me back some confidence in my sanity, as everyone I talked to so far simply would not understand how I read the rules.

Oh I do btw argee that Boromir shouldn't be this powerfull (or Lurtz for that matter) and I wouldn't want to play him that way :angel:

cheers
Nedorus

CaseyNoVa
01-06-2009, 19:50
The RAW is fairly clear on the matter, assuming the book is clear in how it defines Hits => Wounds => Casualties which I think it does.

The RAI is less clear and I'm hesitant to argue any RAI as the RAW is clear, although a bit silly from various perspectives. As the rule is restricted to only one hero per side, meaning Good or Evil, and that Balrogs and other large beasties that would have a problem with it are fairly fast I don't have too many problems playing the rule by RAW. All it means is that you have very large creatures that have a very clear weakness in certain games.

irishthump
01-06-2009, 23:35
I think RAW, unfortunately, would affirm your interpretation. Personally, I would strongly encourage any player I meet to interpret it as reducing the model/formation's Resilience to 1 in game terms, so that each hit is enough to remove a model or roll on a chart, etc. There's just no way the designers meant for Boromir or Lurtz to be THAT good...

And what about Heroic Duels?

Say Boromir defeats The Witch King in a Heroic Duel by the 1. He rolls once on the dueling chart and gets a 4 which is 1 hit on the Witchking. Does this kill him outright because Boromir counts the WK's R2 as R1?

Angelust
02-06-2009, 02:25
Irishthump - yes, I think that would apply with any interpretation of Mighty Blow.

I played a game with Balrog vs. Boromir once, and Boromir had 6 might going into the battle, while Balrog had 2 might. Only be insanely bad luck on Boromir's part did the Balrog manage to kill Boromir, even though the Balrog started w/ 0 wound counters. Boromir had to snake-eyes his terror test, roll a one on his duel roll, and be down to his last Minas Tirith Knight company.

For his points, that's pretty ridiculous when dueling a frikkin Balrog.

Nedorus
11-06-2009, 13:29
Sorry to pull this one back up but I just stumbled accross something interesting:

I think the general consensus here was that RAI the Hard to kill table should be used. Now I just read the cave dragons special ability. He doesn't even need to roll on the heroic duell table, so he doesn't even cause hits or wounds or the likes ... you simply remove the opposing model. And this guy costs even less than Boromir. This got me to think that maybe Boromirs ability is meant to be THAT powerfull :confused: :wtf:

Nedorus *now totally confused*

Angelust
15-06-2009, 20:21
Personally, Boromir is WAY better at killing heroes and monsters than a cave dragon. Also, Boromir is more useful in a variety of situations that don't include monsters and heroes as well, as 6 might points can be used for many things.

If you did it by GW's math, subtract 150 pts from Boromir's base cost by subtracting his might points (6x25). Then the remaining pt cost of Boromir vs. Cave Drake...which is better?

Nedorus
16-06-2009, 17:52
Yes I don't think I want to argue that the cave Dragon is as powerfull as Boromir. That is plainly not true. However what I wanted to throw into the discussion is that other "instant" kill abilities DO exist (as with the cave dragon).

Nedorus

Angelust
16-06-2009, 18:44
I can see your point. However, the comparison might be useful. The Cave Drake has 0 might, a fairly rare chance of killing heroes, and is fairly vulnerable because it can't "hide" in units.

Boromir can VERY reliably kill off heroes, balrogs, Mumaks, etc, and also doubles as a very powerful hero as well. His hero abilities alone are well worth his point cost, even if you took away mighty blow.

I think it's just a case of poor wording on the author's part that has unfortunately become a RAW issue.

Nedorus
17-06-2009, 18:24
what? Poor wording in a Guess Who product? :eek:

No way that this could happen :angel:

Nedorus

Stratigo
14-07-2009, 00:17
this is one of the points at which I'd quit a game if someone tried to pull having Boromir kill a balrog in one hit. If someone has to stoop to that to win a game they aren't worth playing.

Sarah S
14-07-2009, 02:53
Agreed. It would totally wreck the game.