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havoc626
31-05-2009, 06:02
Now, I have a feeling that this might have been asked before, so if it has, just send me the linkk to the thread. I did search but couldn't find anything like this.

If a unit five models wide with spears is charged in the front and they take 5 casualties (they have no champion), can the models in the second rank strike back?

Nurgling Chieftain
31-05-2009, 06:37
There's a pretty good RaW argument that they cannot, but I will confess to thinking it's a silly way to play them and probably (hopefully?) not RaI at all.

BattleHunter
31-05-2009, 08:25
Take my word with a grin of salt, but as far as I remember for spears the 2nd rank guys count as being in the 1st rank for allocating attacks (on the position directly in front of them), so that would kinda make it as if you had 2 guys on the same spot in the front line.

Ofc that's without looking @ the BRB, so don't trust it. I'll check check and answer again ^_^

Festus
31-05-2009, 08:47
Yes, of course they can!
BRB, p.53

Masque
31-05-2009, 09:25
I don't think you meant page 53 but I'm pretty sure that whatever page you did mean doesn't actually clearly allow spears to fight in this situation. I can definately come up with a few RAW quotes preventing them from doing so even though I don't think it is intentional and nobody plays that way.

Gokamok
31-05-2009, 10:13
The closest thing to a RAW argument for not allowing spears to strike back in this case would be p. 36, "Removing Casualties", whereas p. 34, "Who Strikes First" and p. 55 "Fight in Ranks" suggest that they can.

The RAW description of the "Fight in Ranks" weapon rule does not in any way imply that models not removed as casualties are affected by casualties caused on the front rank when determining whether or not they can strike back, which I believe is a strong enough argument to say that RAI is that the second rank would be able to fight in the scenario mentioned in the OP.

Gazak Blacktoof
31-05-2009, 10:50
The way we play it is that 1 kill prevents 1 enemy from attacking. If 10 spearmen (in 2 ranks of 5) could originally attack and 6 kills are scored, before they strike, then 4 spearmen can attack.

Condottiere
31-05-2009, 17:35
1. Has the player declared that they are using spears?

2. Are they standing still?

3. Is the attack frontal?

4. Are less casualties removed than there are models in contact with the attackers? These include models directly behind in the second row.

Then, whatever number of spearsmen remain, who are eligible to strike back, may do so.

Chipacabra
31-05-2009, 18:20
I don't think you meant page 53 but I'm pretty sure that whatever page you did mean doesn't actually clearly allow spears to fight in this situation. I can definately come up with a few RAW quotes preventing them from doing so even though I don't think it is intentional and nobody plays that way.

Haven't we had this discussion before, Masque?
When the front rank dies, the replacements step up from the rear rank (page 53). Those replacements can't fight, but that doesn't affect the second rank. They can still fight, that's plenty clear as far as RAW.

The only time it's questionable is when there are only two ranks. Strictly going by page 53, when a spearman moves from rank 2 to rank 1 to replace a casualty, he doesn't get to attack. But like you said, no one plays like that, and it's probably not what they meant anyway. If the line '... models that are stepping forward from rear ranks to replace to replace them can't attack that turn' is read to mean that the replacements don't get an attack they weren't otherwise entitled to, then it all works out.

I also like how it never actually says that if inflict more casualties than the number of models in the front row, the extras reduce the number of spears in the second rank that can attack back. It's clearly the case, but they don't outright say it.

Anyway, tl;dr version: The intent of the rules are in the line 'any casualties inflicted will reduce the number of enemy able to fight back. You need to know how many models were killed that combat round to determine who cannot attack back.' The standard method of just reducing the number of attackers by one per casualty seems to be the intended way to do it.

Masque
01-06-2009, 00:05
I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only exception would be your mentioning of page 53 which is the last page of the psychology section. I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Chipacabra
01-06-2009, 01:24
I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only exception would be your mentioning of page 53 which is the last page of the psychology section. I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Wow, I don't know why I typed 53. Let's try 36.

Lord Dan
01-06-2009, 03:29
So assuming we have the front rank settled, and casualties move up from the back, what happens when the front two ranks go down? Can any spearmen fight back? This is more a question of where the spearmen "die from", as the enemy unit either advances and cuts them down or just kills the men that keep running to the front to replace the other dead ones.

Kevlar
01-06-2009, 04:19
So assuming we have the front rank settled, and casualties move up from the back, what happens when the front two ranks go down? Can any spearmen fight back? This is more a question of where the spearmen "die from", as the enemy unit either advances and cuts them down or just kills the men that keep running to the front to replace the other dead ones.

Uh, unless they are high elfs no.

I would think the redressing the ranks occurs after all blows are striked. Spearmen still alive in the second rank would get to attack before they move up to fill in their dead in the first rank.