View Full Version : Torny OnGs, taking it to the big 3 (daemons in particular)!

01-06-2009, 12:07
Well, after playing in, and being trounsed in, devourer this year, I decided next time I wouldn't take such a kind list (no, that doesn't mean I'll bring a different army :p), and after seeing the trend on most (I'm talking above 50% here) tables of one massive, or 2+ lesser monsters (greater daemons, dragon lords, stegadons, hydras. the list goes on), I reconed it was about time I take some stuff that can deal with them.

The other above 50%-er at devourer was daemon players, and having faced them on a few occasions (neither of which I got more than 200VPs against), I think I needed to get some tailored units that can show them a thing or two about hard hitting.

The list as of itself is a big risk. Its completely different to what I normally take (usually wyvern+giant and lots of blocks), so will be interesting to see how it performs next time a tornament rolls around. The list is also very situation based, but with OnGs, its really worth while going for that big money shot, even if the only thing you get out of it is a good story to tell your mates after the game :D, made all the better if itt actually worked

So without further adoo:

Savage orc great shaman - level 4, boar, skull wand of kaloth, collar of zorga, waaagh paint, bigged's kikkin' boots - 329

goblin shaman - level 2, nibbla's itty ring, 2 magic mushrooms - 130

goblin shaman - level 2, staff of sorcery, 2 magic mushrooms - 140

goblin big boss - chariot, light armour, shield, ulag's akrit axe, tricksy trinket - 149

21 orc boys - additional choppas, full command - 177

30 night goblins - spears, full command, 2 fanatics - 190

30 night goblins - spears, full command, 2 fanatics - 190

5 spider riders - musician - 71

6 savage orc boar boyz - spears, shields, full command, gork's waaagh banner - 203

6 squig hoppers - 90

goblin chariot - additional crew - 63

2 spear chukkas - 70

2 pump wagons - 80

2 pump wagons - 80

- 1962

Its a few points short, so any sudjestions on those last 38 pts would help a lot

The general plan is to set up with a relatively refused flank. Spider riders and hoppers will be set up first on one flank, both in cover (if there is any at this torny!) or on the far flanks. The goblin chariot will go with them to create the refused flank. The three block units will then be used to create a centre for my force (placed as far to the other flank as it seems necessary) and to create a relatively well protected centre (as well protected as it gets with OnGs). The spear chukkas will be placed one on each flank (as in hugging the board edge) to ensure fast cavalry don't try it (this is more for a fear factor, as I don't expect them to hit things). the boar boys will be on the other flank (the non refused one) in a large channel of open ground (which a tornys tends to be the whole field) where they can line up and smack into anything of value, hopefully backed up by bash 'em lads for the re rolls to hit (or the waaagh spell should i get it off). The rest is placed where neaded (as by this point the opponent should be long done with deployment), so anything left will be placed opposite a unit it has a good chance against, or wherever I need some support

As for a few of the unusual units, the lord will be my wildcard (risky I know, but as of playtesting he's played 1, charged 1, killed 1 monster, a treeman ancient in this instance :D). If a monster seems to be in 14", it will be charged and if possible challenged (to avoid him getting around the collar). The banner and outnumber will mean i auto win by 2 (I don't expect him to be doing much to me, hitting on 6s, and with my 6+ ward save that I pass like a 3+ :p), and if the opponent can't counter charge then I have 3 rounds of combat against the thing, at which point he's bound to fail a ld test. The added effect of spells, such as 6s to 1s (which makes me invulnerable to him) and either of the rr to hit sources will also be tried on them to help out the cause. Ridden monsters are clearly more of an issue because the rider doesn't hit on 6s, but in that instance I'll try and avoid the challenge (hope he doesn't call one) or, if I do get into it, I'll attack the rider first (he'll have higher ld but its the only hope of winning). against these opponents though I'd charge my shaman out of the unit, as the rest become a liability, and if I don't kill the rider in the first turn, he's screwed anyway, so it doesn't really matter about winning the combat (infact fleeing would be my best bet of survival if all else failed)

the pump wagons will be lined up next to each other (possibly with a unit in the middle), so that afetr a couple of turns of random movement, I should have a nice staggered formation. this means that even if the opponent charges and kills one, overunning into a second, they will be charged by 2 more, and quite possibly the unit for the static CR. At that oint just about anything is screwed (except maybe nurgle daemons with herald), as a minimum of 4d6 str 4 impact hits should ensure no attacks back (champion and characters maybe), and should rack up enough kills to win the combat cumfortably. the added bonus of being 3 units for the purpose of chasing is also a big bonus, as I get to roll 3 persue distances

The big boss on chariot is a strange one, but against any daemons (again, except nurgle with herald) he packs a mighty punch. d6+1 impact hits that kill on 2s (no ward saves for you!) is a very nice start, along with his 3 str 5 attacks with rr to hit (probably in a challenge with a champion, just where I want to be! and if not his herald is at the back of the unit, meaning he gets bugger all attacks back, and I have a very good chance of winning combat unsupported. Not bad for a crazed goblin on chariot vs the beardiest army to date. The added ability of being a rank breaking chariot is also not one to be scoffed at, as if he gets into the side of that daemon unit, all the more fun!

the rest is prety self explanitory. Magic will be used to support units and take off ranks, not as a main ranged offence (but the occasional spell will be thrown in for good measure to drain DD). The waaagh spell will be tried a few times if I get it, as the effect is just too good to not roll a bunch of dice for, not to mention the ability to move fanatics, pump wagons and squig hoppers the extra 2d6, something not often thought about ;)

I suppose the main question I have for you is, will this work? I'll try and play test it vs some of the beard based lists, but I do see that it will relly a hefty bit on luck (skull wand, getting past fear with goblin chariots, potentially 9 different compulsary moving units on the field at once!). Any other C+C, please leave it, and even if ou don't have some, a friendly bump is always nice :D

01-06-2009, 14:25
Seems pretty viable. Different then most other orc builds I've seen but if what you say happens, then you have a pretty good chance to win.

01-06-2009, 14:30
Yep, definitely a different build - and that in itself could get you a few wins. Personally I'd drop the chariots - just not a fan.

As to the last few points, theres a couple of extra Squig Hoppers there...

01-06-2009, 16:54
A very intresting list, must say i love the 'crazed goblin on chariot' and the hit or miss shaman, unfortunatly this list does seem very hit and miss but none the less very intresting to play with and most of all very fun.

I presume your orks are going to be 7x3? if this is your prefrence then thats fine, if not thats where those spare points could be going.

Overall looks like a cool and fun list which does have some serious potential if things play out ok, (hope you don't get too many bad animosity rolls :P). Make sure to do lots of play testing and tell us how it goes. Must say like the new approach to OnGs.

Good Luck!, CS

01-06-2009, 17:16
imo, your battle plan is a little unrealistic :(

i'm not sure that 21 choppa boyz w/ 2x 30 speargobs w/o nets, and 4 fanatics, is going to hold the center against "the big 3". certainly these units are not "as well protected as it gets with o&g". protected would indicate shield boyz and netters... something that can take a charge, or is insulated against a heavy force. your gobs will fear test against all 3 of the big 3, and your orcs against 2/3, with ld.8 at best since you have a shaman lord, so imo you will be taking charges pretty often, and certainly you will have a hard time getting a multiple charge off.

second, your savage boar boyz, according to your plan, are exposed and prone to baiting. experienced players will pull them out and lead them around for the whole game, or else angle them for flank charging. usually, when people take sav boar boyz, they put a unit of fast cav nearby to help with that, and you have your only fast cav down on the other flank with a chariot and a few hoppers.

incidentally, the same is true of your lord. if there is an enemy w/in 14" & los at the start of your turn, he has to charge out of the unit at it, unless you declare a charge with the unit that the lord is in (p.78). remember also that the char's frenzy doesn't extend to the unit, so charging that monster might not include outnumber and a banner.

staggered pump wagons is not a good thing! you have allowed for the instance that your pump wagon gets charged, and overran into another pump wagon... why do you think that the string of overruns will stop there? it will keep going on through until it doesn't reach another unit w/overrun roll. pump wagons should be used as support for the front, and not the front. they would be better used supporting your 3 blocks of boyz and gobs, and also your chariots.

i don't think it's a great idea to send your ng big boss out solo. sure, in a fantastic scenario where you make all your rolls and your opponent flubs all of them, you can win against a ranked up demon unit with herald, but i think generally, you are asking quite alot from a gobbo. better to use this in conjunction with other chariots, or as a support for boars or blocks.

the problem with your plan is not the use of many randomized units. it's that you are not arranging/equipping your forces for maximum effect. as far as the list goes, it might win some who can really tell? for it to have a really competitive chance, though, as opposed to a fluke or lucky miracle, i think you would have to use your frenzied units and pump wagons more carefully, and again, support your units more.

01-06-2009, 17:56
The reason for no nets is simply because I don't have the models. If I had a few then they'd be in there no question.

The shaman lord won't be far off. Unless there is interveaning terrain between them, then there will be savages on the side, and the 3 blocks right next to them, so the savages will have a hard time being baited off too far (I understand it will happen, but they can't go terribly wrong with the board edge to save them from one side). With OnGs ld is always an issue, but ld 8 should be able to suffice to hold those three together to some degree, and I've tried to maximise the imune to psych units in the list

Also, with the troops also being frenzied, both the character and the unit would move (I'd have thought), and if not then both can declair the same charge due to frenzy, resulting in them staying together

With overrunning, you don't get to do the 2nd combat unless there is a pre existing combat that you are entering to. If you overrun into a new enemy, you have to wait untill the next round to attack it, by which time I've counter charged, but I get that they would probably be better off as support units

With the big boss, even with average rolls he'll kill everything in base contact (against any basic daemon unit save nurgle he hits on 4s with rr then kills on 2s with just his 3 attacks, let alone the d6+1 str 5 impact hits that instant kill (the big 3 aren't known for their great armour saves, even grave guard are down to 5+ with shields, and heavy cavalry down to 4+, so he'll have a good go at most units that don't get full ranks standard outnumber (the most I've seen daemons at is 4 without the last rank, which isn't a terrible ask (I'd argue passing his ld to charge them is harder), but yes, I'll be sure to support him where possible (I'll probably keep the chariot more centralised than on the refused side for more options)

And at CS, no, the boyz will be 5x4 for the ranks, but thinking about it, 7x3 may be an idea... (although will take up a lot of space and be hard to move). they will probably need a little more bulk due to not having a boss with them like I normally do

01-06-2009, 18:18
Also, with the troops also being frenzied, both the character and the unit would move (I'd have thought), and if not then both can declair the same charge due to frenzy, resulting in them staying together
with savage boar boyz, yes. i didn't assume you put him with boars on the flank, and those are only savages i see on the list

With overrunning, you don't get to do the 2nd combat unless there is a pre existing combat that you are entering to. If you overrun into a new enemy, you have to wait untill the next round to attack it, by which time I've counter charged, but I get that they would probably be better off as support units
ah yes, there it is, p.45. my mistake

01-06-2009, 18:27
Yep, he'll be with the boar boyz, as all in all, thats a relatively advantagous place for him to be in (he can take advantage of casting bash 'em lads, they're imune to psych, he is very nice at taking characters, and he has the same combat potential as the boss (save the spear, add the wand)

01-06-2009, 18:43
greater daemons, dragon lords, stegadons, hydras. the list goes on

Hmmm... for most of these your plan will just not work terribly well.

Greater Daemons (normally bloodthirster?). Firstly they out range you, secondly the collar doesn't work on them after the FAQ decided greater daemons count as characters

Dragon Lord.Again, out ranged. You might nullify the dragon, but the lord on top will massively outclass your shaman, as well as being higher unit strength

Stegadon. With 1 or 2 hits if you're lucky, then the odds are against you killing the stegadon by it failing a ld test. It's cold blooded remember? if you don't kill it you've lost your lord.

Hydra... you'd have a chance here, but certainly not a good enough chance to risk your lord. On average the hydra will survive and utterly maul you. (hatred, higher unit strength)

In all cases, even if you're lucky and kill the target... your general is now a single mounted model (no -1 to hit for being US1) out there as fair game for anything your opponent can chuck at it.

01-06-2009, 19:01
Just because your a character doesn't mean your not still a monster (they use monster rules for movement so why wouldn't they be?)

As said, against monster cavalry (dragons etc) I would have some issues, and the chararacter would be the target of all my attacks, but really any other lv 4 lord would be just as screwed in the same situation. If things really do look bad and the opponent remembered to challenge, I can just accept with the champion or reject it (I run the 7 boar boyz 6x1 with an ablative for just such an occasion (usually run savage warboss with them instead), and 7 is too wide fo rmy taste and increases their bait range)

Against stegadons and hydras (the perfect opponent being a skink priest on steg because I can challenge him) they would be hitting on 6s vs the shaman (so would most likely waste a round off attacks at him, then attack the normal guys), so my lord would be around for a while (not to mention with 6s to 1s if I get the spell off). stegadons are ld 6, which isn't terrible odds (I'm sure avian has the odds) and hydras probably would find it even harder to pass the ld test (ld 7?)

Also, there isn't much reason to charge out of the unit. He'll stay in unless there is a reason not to. He can also make use of the waaagh banner if he stays in, which is a great bonus when trying to get at those flyers (the two movement spells OnGs have can also help with this if I roll them)

I'm not saying its a perfect plan, far from it, but its worth a go, and even if the combats don't happen, he's still a lv 4 wizard doing what he does best (hopefully without animosity based annoyances)

01-06-2009, 19:15

Q: If a character is also a monster (e.g Greater Daemons, Treemen Ancients, Shaggoth Champions), Is it affected by magic items (e.g Rune of the True Beast) and spells (e.g The Beast Cowers) that are stated as working against monsters?

A: No, they are characters and not monsters, even though they share some rules with monsters (normally this is limited to the way they move, their inability to join units, and their unit strength)

It's a retarded ruling imo, but it's perfectly clear.

On the other stuff, if not charging out of the unit... the monster will just eat the unit, for a big CR boost. As collar of zorga only works for attacks directed at the bearer.

01-06-2009, 19:35
hmm, I'm a strong believer that faqs are merely oversimplifications to settle debaits quickly rather than being solutions (there are many that are plain wrong by RaW), but suppose I'll have to ask tornament organisers their opinion (because that does seriously hamper my plans), as by RaW there is no reason why someone can't be a character and a monster, just like being a monster and infantry for the purposes of whether a shagoth can use 2 hand weapons for the bonus attack, or a great weapon for the strength bonus