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Darwinn69
01-06-2009, 22:04
We had a very lively discussion about this in our gaming group, and came to a conclusion that we are using internally. However, I thought it would be fun to get Warseers take on the problem. I'm playing a WoC mounted army, my opponent is a deamon player with a Keeper /w Sirens Song.

I have 3 units of Maurader Horsemen (Shanesh marked) screening a bunch of Korn knights. I mistakenly put one of my sorcerers in the front line. Turn one my opponent goes first and takes advantage of my mistake and runs his keeper up to sirens song the unit with the sorcerer, attempting to get me to charge in which case I'll quickly loose a sorcerer my first turn.

Realizing my mistake I speculate on if it's possible to declare charges with the other 2 maurader horsemen units that are in range and have LoS to the Keeper (All 3 horsemen units are in the front arc). When it comes time to move chargers I can move the other two units first and they will take up the entire base of the keeper. At this point it's completely impossible for me to move the unit with my sorcerer so therefor my sorcerers unit gets a failed charge...keeping my wizard alive and allowing him to cast that turn. The question is, is this legal? In reality I ended up fleeing instead of charging, but it was a very interesting question that had us mulling about it for a long time.

siphon101
01-06-2009, 22:46
We had a very lively discussion about this in our gaming group, and came to a conclusion that we are using internally. However, I thought it would be fun to get Warseers take on the problem. I'm playing a WoC mounted army, my opponent is a deamon player with a Keeper /w Sirens Song.

I have 3 units of Maurader Horsemen (Shanesh marked) screening a bunch of Korn knights. I mistakenly put one of my sorcerers in the front line. Turn one my opponent goes first and takes advantage of my mistake and runs his keeper up to sirens song the unit with the sorcerer, attempting to get me to charge in which case I'll quickly loose a sorcerer my first turn.

Realizing my mistake I speculate on if it's possible to declare charges with the other 2 maurader horsemen units that are in range and have LoS to the Keeper (All 3 horsemen units are in the front arc). When it comes time to move chargers I can move the other two units first and they will take up the entire base of the keeper. At this point it's completely impossible for me to move the unit with my sorcerer so therefor my sorcerers unit gets a failed charge...keeping my wizard alive and allowing him to cast that turn. The question is, is this legal? In reality I ended up fleeing instead of charging, but it was a very interesting question that had us mulling about it for a long time.

You must move chargers in the order the charges were declared. Given the word "or immediatly flee" in the siren song description, this suggests to me that you must either declare the charge, or declare the flee, the moment the power is activated. Since you would then declare the charge with your unit at that time, any charges you declared subsequent would have to be moved subsequent. If you declare charge with your knights, then your marauders, you'd have to move your knights, then your marauders.

No going "OK, so siren song means I declare a charge with my knights..now I'll declare a charge with my marauders..now I'll move my marauders first...oh look, no room for knights". Siren song is worded to prevent you from doing that, in that chargers are moved in the order that charges are declared.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-06-2009, 23:24
For the record, if they're charging the same facing (which it sounds like in this situation), they move simultaneously.

T10
02-06-2009, 06:59
Ok, this is how I would suggest playing it out.

I'm assuming that you have three units of Marauder Horsemen on screening detail and that these units form a line of sorts. Thus they don't initially block each others charge path.

When the Sirens Song power is used you need to determine if your unit can actually reach the target unit. This is important since you can't charge if you can't reach. So assuming you don't elect to flee you are comitted to charging.

Now, I won't go into a discussion as to wether or not this then becomes the first charge you must declare for the turn (which affects all sorts of things), but you have to realize that you are not allowed to declare a charge you know will fail. For example, charging three units of 5-wide Marauder Horsemen into the front arc of a 50mm base Keeper of Secrets can't be done.

So since you're allready committed with one unit, you can, at best send in a second unit.

-T10

Lord of Skulls
02-06-2009, 14:52
I agree with T10 here, you can't declare charges with more than 2 Marauder Horsemen against a Keeper of Secrets, as the last model can't possibly get into base contact.

However, if you saw the problem beforehand, couldn't you declare charges with the two other units before your opponent used Sirens Song, thus making this work the other way around?

narrativium
02-06-2009, 15:14
Siren Song is used at the start of the Declare Charges phase. So, if you declared a charge, your opponent couldn't use it at all.

Lijacote
02-06-2009, 15:16
Who decides when the phase of declaring charges begins, and does it become a contest of who gets to shout "I DECLARE A CHARGE" first? Who has the priority?

I think it's questionable to try and avert the Siren's Song by attempting to declare charges before it. Not gentlemanly at all.

Time for 4+? I wouldn't know.

Lazarus15
02-06-2009, 16:17
Lijacote-I agree. This should turn into a "I said it first" contest. The Slannesh player says at the end of the moving phase, after the opponent has moved his last unit (assuming no rallys, and compuls.), I have something to declare at the beginning of your move chargers phase. The opponent can then not do anything else with movement with his units. If someone tried to argue against that by saying, "I declared charges first," I would pack it up right there and call the guy a ******.

rtunian
02-06-2009, 16:17
Who decides when the phase of declaring charges begins, and does it become a contest of who gets to shout "I DECLARE A CHARGE" first? Who has the priority?

the rules decide when the declaring charges phase starts. it is the first thing you do in the movement phase, and it takes place after any start of turn phase rolls. so, once the player whose turn it is makes their start of turn rolls (animosity, stupidity, etc), then it's automatically the next phase, movement, which starts with declaring charges.

so... once they take their tests, you declare use of siren song, or at the very start of their turn if they have no tests to take. if you forget about it until after they've declared a couple of charges, assuming a reasonable amount of time has passed, then that's your loss.

but if he declares instantly at the start of the phase, before you declare siren song, you would just interrupt him right away and say "excuse me, but i get to declare siren song first". if they are all "heeheehee but you are too late for i have already declared a charge!", then well, you do whatever you do when you are faced with a jerk player. some argue with em, some dice it off, some use the red book, others the red ruler, and some make a mental note and just never play 'em again.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-06-2009, 17:54
you have to realize that you are not allowed to declare a charge you know will fail. For example, charging three units of 5-wide Marauder Horsemen into the front arc of a 50mm base Keeper of Secrets can't be done.

So since you're allready committed with one unit, you can, at best send in a second unit.

-T10

You don't know that they can't complete their charge though as some units might fail their fear/terror tests or in the case of fighting dwarfs the enemy might have a rune of slowness. I'd be wary of using what can and can't fit in base contact from preventing charges.

T10
02-06-2009, 18:28
Obviously, outside factors can come into play. But deal with what's on the table and you can't go far wrong. In this very specific example we know that there is nothing that will prevent the individual units from charging, and there is no way they can all get into close combat.

-T10

Taureus
07-06-2009, 01:26
You don't know that they can't complete their charge though as some units might fail their fear/terror tests or in the case of fighting dwarfs the enemy might have a rune of slowness. I'd be wary of using what can and can't fit in base contact from preventing charges.

In this instance, Slaneesh-marked Marauder Horsemen won't be failing any Terror/Fear checks, or running into a Dwarf with a Rune.