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knightime98
02-06-2009, 06:38
I have played with and against most of the aforementioned in the title. All against the Hell Cannon and against/with War Hydra, Salamanders and Razordons. All of these it seems are Monster and handlers.

In the many games that I have played - I can not for the life of me know how they work in combat.. Only save the War Hydra which is very specific - you hit the hydra if you are able to...

Now, with all that in mind - How do they rank up when they are in combat.. Do the handlers go alongside the monster(s) or are they always hidden in the back. I'm getting tired of playing 3 different ways everytime I play a game with a new person. No one seems to have a definitive answer on this.

I'm at a loss over it all as well. I think with the salamanders and razordons that the skinks never form to the front? Something to do with their safety and not wanting to be eaten by them.

Not sure how the chaos dwarves work with the now (broken) Hell Cannon T6, 5W, unbreakable with 4+AS... They toned it down only a tad but not in line with actually being able to be beaten (realistically). Even at S4 you need a 6 to wound.. This is kind of like the Steam Tank (which is cheeses also)...

Anyhow, I get off track.
1 - The point is how do the crew of all 3 of these work in combat.
2 - Do they rank to the front or do they hide behind their monsters? and not get in combat at all?
3 - At what point do they have to if ever take a monster reaction roll?

I'm not looking for speculation but rather hard references to page numbers that spell it out in black and white. The hydra seems to be the exception other than do the crew rank to the front? Those rules seem to be straight forward - if you can hit the hydra you must otherwise you hit the crew only if you are ONLY base to base with them.

Ok all for now.. thanks!

Masque
02-06-2009, 08:01
Razordons and Salamanders are not monsters. They are simply mixed units of skirmishers, some ogre sized, some man sized, with their own special rules. Their handlers have special rules keeping them in the back ranks.

The Hell Cannon and Hydra are monster and handler units. When charging or being charged only rank up with the monster, then add the handlers to the battleline later. The Hellcannon crew lack the special protection the Hydra Beastmasters have.

knightime98
02-06-2009, 08:15
The Hell Cannon and Hydra are monster and handler units. When charging or being charged only rank up with the monster, then add the handlers to the battleline later. The Hellcannon crew lack the special protection the Hydra Beastmasters have.

When you say add them later? What does that mean? after the hellcannon is destroyed or after you rank the "monster" up and then place the crew in a line next to the monster so they can fight... I think that's what you are trying to say.

Is this all in the respective army books or is this in the BRB.. Just want to know the source so that if I have to site it - I can... Thanks..

Atrahasis
02-06-2009, 08:26
The rules for monsters and handlers are found in the rulebook.

Salamanders and Razordons are not M&H.

When a M&H charges or is charged, as soon as contact is made between the monster and the charging/charged unit the M&H form up like a skirmishing unit.

Autobot HQ
02-06-2009, 08:34
Haven't got rulebook to hand, but the ruling is essentially this:

When declaring a charge, the models move at their own speed. What this usually means in regards to the Hellcannon/Chaos Dwarves is that the HC will reach combat and the CD won't. However, the HC still charges and so you'll only face the HC, then rank the dwarves up behind it as they failed to reach combat.

Usually this won't be a problem with the Hydra/Beastmasters, as they have very similar movement. Should both Monster & Handlers be in charge range, then they rank up like skirmishers, remembering that they have to maximise contact. Be aware the Hydra has special rules regarding who you are aloud to target and who you aren't.

I'll provide page numbers later if no-one else has.

A-HQ

Autobot HQ
02-06-2009, 08:44
DOUBLE POST: Just found I have my mini-rulebook in my bag, so page numbers are as follows:

Page 67: Monsters & Handlers
"Once the Monster is in contact with the enemy, form the handlers up with the monster in the same way you would do for a unit of skirmishers"

Page 65: Skirmishers Charging
"Any models unable to reach are place in the rear ranks so that the unit forms up in to what looks like a regular formation behind the models that have formed the fighting line."

Hopefully that makes sense and sorts out the problem :)

A-HQ

knightime98
02-06-2009, 09:05
Well let's say that the handlers are in the back because they are out of charge range..
So, then do the handlers in a subsequent round of combat go to the front?

You see this is what I was talking about.. You get 3 versions of what happens with what...
I want to sort it out once and for all. Thanks for the info so far.

Atrahasis
02-06-2009, 09:21
They come to the front if and only if the monster wins combat and the controlling player chooses to expand frontage as his free manoeuvre.

Masque
02-06-2009, 09:24
If the monster and handler unit wins combat it could expand frontage to get the handlers into combat, but it would not be forced to.

Autobot HQ
02-06-2009, 09:43
As above. If you win combat you can bring extra people into the fight, but they have no obligation to. Most sane people would avoid putting lightly armoured handlers of their expensive creatures into combat if they could avoid it.

knightime98
02-06-2009, 09:45
Where is it in the rules about expanding frontage?

This isn't in the same section that says you can turn to face your opponent if you win is it?

Edit: I have not seen any response to when a Monster Reaction is taken? If and only if all the crew are slain?

If you have the beast cowers will that work on the hell cannon?
Also, does the commandment of brass work on it?
It's that the hell cannon is a very unique unit that bends/breaks the normal rules format..
It's treated like a warmachine but it's not.. I'm still trying to figure it out.. Btw, No I don't have the Woc book so, I'm trying to know how the rules work. I wonder if the Collar of Zorga would work.. If it is a monster then I'd think that it would. But it's only if it is a mount.. Well now, I'm going off track again..

Masque
02-06-2009, 09:49
Yes, Free Maneuvers, Page 46 of the BRB.

EvC
02-06-2009, 10:22
Complex queries, so I will do my best to clear it up for you!



Edit: I have not seen any response to when a Monster Reaction is taken? If and only if all the crew are slain?

You take a monster reaction test for ridden monsters if their rider dies (Or if you have additional rules telling you to do so, like with a Hydra). So a Hellcannon does not take a MRT if its crew dies. The Hellcannon's reaction to its masters' death is covered in the far lower rampage check it will be taking .


If you have the beast cowers will that work on the hell cannon?

Yes, as it is a monster, but it won't stop it firing.


Also, does the commandment of brass work on it?

No, as it is not a warmachine.


It's that the hell cannon is a very unique unit that bends/breaks the normal rules format..
It's treated like a warmachine but it's not.. I'm still trying to figure it out.. Btw, No I don't have the Woc book so, I'm trying to know how the rules work. I wonder if the Collar of Zorga would work.. If it is a monster then I'd think that it would. But it's only if it is a mount.. Well now, I'm going off track again..

Don't overthink it, it's really quite simple. It's a monster. It has an attack that works like a warmachine. But that doesn't mean it IS a warmachine. So anything that works for monsters, works on it, too. Collar of Zorga, for example.

Milgram
02-06-2009, 10:33
HC does not have to take a MTR test.
HC is not a warmachine.
HC follows the rules for M&H. it doesn't break them, but it has some special rules (like unbreakable or stubborn, don't remember which one)
HC counts as a monster for all spells/items that target monsters, infantry, cavalry, warmachines, characters etc. - collar works against mounts, monstrous mounts and monsters.

Jetty Smurf
02-06-2009, 20:00
Just confirmation of the razordons/salamanders. The handlers never actually fight, unless the unit is charged from both the front and the rear, correct? This meaning their only purpose (unless unlucky to get rear charged) is to provide some convenient snack for the razor/sally?

Also, while I'm here, the handlers get removed with the sally/razor when it dies, correct?

I'm hoping the answer to all the above is yes, because that's how I have been playing it :p

nosferatu1001
03-06-2009, 02:36
Well, given it tells you that you must line up BEHIND the salamanders, then yes, they dont fight unless flanked or the player chooses to expand frontage, if able.

The handlers do not get removed, why would you think that? They are not riders on a mount, they are handlers (of a sort)

Necromancy Black
03-06-2009, 03:55
Handlers are not removed when the Salamanders die, they stay. Works out well cause at this point most people ignore the unit, but if it's still over 50% starting models then the unit is worth no VP, and if there's 5 or more skinks left it can still contest and capture table quarters.

Jetty Smurf
03-06-2009, 06:46
Ok cool thanks for that :)

Will definitely have to remember that for future battles. Even if it doesn't help me with the unit itself, it will keep whatever is strong enough to kill my razor/sally tied up in combat for another round (provided they don't break).

Atrahasis
03-06-2009, 08:38
The skinks will also come into combat if a slamander dies. They have special rules for forming up behind the salamanders, but no special permission to change formation to remain behind should a sally in the front rank kark it.

Necromancy Black
03-06-2009, 15:02
I have to disagree. The special rule says they form the back rank and form it they shall until all salamanders are dead.

But once again, this seriously needs to have an FAQ on it.

EvC
03-06-2009, 15:24
"...form it they shall until all salamanders are dead."

Do you actually believe the rules say this? I'm just trying to work out if you are inventing rules, hallucinating them, or just misremembering them. Either way, the quote doesn't belong in the thread.

Masque
03-06-2009, 19:02
The rule does include the word "always" so I don't see why his interpretation is so unbelievable.

Atrahasis
03-06-2009, 19:27
Skirmishers only "form up" once in a combat, after that they are treated the same as a ranked unit (albeit without rank bonus).

Necromancy Black
03-06-2009, 23:39
"In close combat the Salamanders always form the first rank and the skinks rank up behind."

The Salamanders are always the first rank, and the skinks go behind. So until all the salamanders have died, all the skinks stay out of the front rank.

Rank-n-Vyle
04-06-2009, 19:20
If Bladewind (3D6 ws4 str4 close combat attacks) is cast at a saly/razor unit do the skinks get hit at all? Or do the 3d6 get randomized before rolling to hit?

Also would wounds spill over to skinks in the back rank?

Spirit
04-06-2009, 20:48
Wounds wouldnt spill over to the skinks, if you direct 10 attacks on a salamander with one wound, even if you caused one wound you would not kill any skinks.

You can only kill what you can attack.

Atrahasis
05-06-2009, 07:53
"In close combat the Salamanders always form the first rank and the skinks rank up behind."

The Salamanders are always the first rank, and the skinks go behind. So until all the salamanders have died, all the skinks stay out of the front rank.

As said, skirmishers only "rank up" once in a combat. After they've "ranked up" they do not "rank up" again until they leave combat and later re-enter it.